2016-03-16 UTC
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# 13:27 eprodrom I'm on my way, Google Maps has me arriving before 10am but I have to park and get up to the room # 13:28 aaronpk thanks! amy and I are picking up breakfast/coffee now tantek and cwebber2 joined the channel
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# 14:07 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot dmitriz joined the channel
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# 14:21 shevski i can't find you guyes # 14:21 shevski yep, the room for the f2f # 14:22 aaronpk across the common area from where indiewebcamp was yesterday # 14:22 shevski i did a fair amount of wandering around the 4th floor.. ben_thatmust joined the channel
# 14:22 shevski okay, on the 5th floor now. will come and have another look # 14:23 aaronpk sandro: i took an action item to propose a list of labels for organizing issues, i have that to present now ben_thatmust_ joined the channel
# 14:23 aaronpk sandro: probably before we go through issues lists # 14:25 ben_thatmust aaronpk i can take over again eprodrom joined the channel
# 14:25 ben_thatmust scribenick: ben_thatmust shevski joined the channel
# 14:26 ben_thatmust tantek: the next goals after that will be to taking drafts to CR # 14:26 ben_thatmust s/taking/looking at what is needed next for taking/ # 14:26 ben_thatmust tantek: lets move work on publish updated working drafts to tomorrow # 14:27 ben_thatmust eprodrom: lets move demo of validator to before taking AS2 to CR discussion # 14:28 ben_thatmust tantek: this fully schedules what we had for goals and items to schedule thus far. # 14:28 ben_thatmust ... do we have any other items we'd like to add? # 14:29 ben_thatmust shevski: what about reviewing implementations? # 14:30 ben_thatmust tantek: (schedules it) NOW i think we are done # 14:30 ben_thatmust ... anything else? # 14:30 ben_thatmust i got booted for a moment shevski eprodrom did you have present+ # 14:31 ben_thatmust AnnBass: do we have anyone on talky? # 14:31 ben_thatmust tantek: no, not yet # 14:31 eprodrom Arnaud: are you joining by Talky? # 14:31 ben_thatmust tantek: the next telcon is the 29th, no telcon next week # 14:32 eprodrom ben_thatmust++ # 14:32 ben_thatmust ... mostly because most of us are busy here next week # 14:32 ben_thatmust tantek: the next F2F is already scheduled for portland # 14:33 ben_thatmust ... the weekend before the meeting is the IndieWebCamp summit too # 14:33 ben_thatmust ... right now we have 5 RSVPs to the next F2F # 14:33 ben_thatmust ... please add yourself one way or another if you can go or not # 14:34 ben_thatmust ... that will help aaronpk with venue planning etc # 14:34 ben_thatmust ... the next F2F after that is in september in Lisbon Portugal as part of TPAC # 14:35 ben_thatmust tantek: by a quick show of hands how many can make it to that? # 14:35 ben_thatmust tantek: that was about 50% so it should be enough of a critical mass # 14:35 ben_thatmust ... we need to submit for space # 14:35 ben_thatmust ... i proposed thursday - friday that week # 14:36 ben_thatmust ... if anyone else has any WG they are a part of, you might want to check with other groups to see that there is no conflict # 14:36 ben_thatmust ... hearing no objections lets go with Thursday/Friday # 14:37 ben_thatmust sandro: what about annotations? # 14:37 ben_thatmust tantek: do we want to conflict or specificially not conflict # 14:37 rhiaro can confirm that lunch will be delivered at 11:45 # 14:37 Loqi I added a countdown for 3/16 11:45am (#5814) # 14:38 ben_thatmust Resolved: reserve Thursday/Friday for meeting at TPAC in Lisbon # 14:38 ben_thatmust eprodrom: if we are to have another meeting after that it would be close to the end of the year, do we want to schedule that? # 14:38 ben_thatmust tantek: last time we discussed we suggested SF, i'd be happy to host # 14:38 ben_thatmust eprodrom: would there be any benefit to being here? # 14:39 ben_thatmust sandro: not really other than travel rotation # 14:39 ben_thatmust AnnBass: it would be more fair since the summer one is on the west coast # 14:39 ben_thatmust tsyesika: its easier for us to get here # 14:40 rhiaro would like to propose we do half way between US and Europe and meet in Iceland :) # 14:40 ben_thatmust eprodrom: i'm not sure there is any benefit to meeting that close to the end of our charter # 14:40 ben_thatmust tantek: hopefully its to celebrate our completions # 14:40 ben_thatmust sandro: probably no decisions to make at that point # 14:41 ben_thatmust aaronpk: if we have to decide that before december, is it better to have it earlier? # 14:41 ben_thatmust tantek: now is the time to start planning date ranges certainly # 14:41 ben_thatmust ... normally the TPAC is in early november, so its a little strange this year # 14:42 ben_thatmust eprodrom: could we sketch in a proposed F2F @MIT for early november 2016? # 14:42 ben_thatmust wilkie: we can always revisit this in june # 14:42 ben_thatmust tantek: this would give people plenty of time react # 14:43 ben_thatmust sandro: the week of Nov 14th doesn't conflict with anything (elections, holidays, etc) # 14:43 ben_thatmust tantek: lets just say early Nov so people have time to react to that # 14:43 ben_thatmust AnnBass: are we officially saying it here at MIT? # 14:44 ben_thatmust tantek: there is a proposal for that, I'm still happy to host in san fransisco too # 14:44 ben_thatmust sandro: november is far enough out we can ACTUALLY get our choice of rooms # 14:45 ben_thatmust tantek: we'll follow up on future F2F discussions with that schedule # 14:45 ben_thatmust ... any other input on F2F or all other admin items? # 14:46 ben_thatmust TOPIC: activity streams conformance discussions # 14:46 ben_thatmust eprodrom: just for context, one of the decisions we made was to add a conformance section to AS2 before getting to CR # 14:47 ben_thatmust ... specificially chose to mimic the html conformacne section # 14:47 ben_thatmust ... this task has been on my todo list for some time, so i'm glad this is done # 14:48 ben_thatmust ... can we step through this? its not as long as HTML5 conformance section as it had a lot of previous versions and its not as significant here for some of those sections # 14:48 ben_thatmust ... non-interactive presentation for example is too detailed for AS2 # 14:48 ben_thatmust ... followed structure of html prolog # 14:49 ben_thatmust ... the RFC 2119 is duplicated here, we can probably remove it here or at the beginning # 14:49 ben_thatmust ... in terms of the conformance classes, its a description of the various roles # 14:50 ben_thatmust ... at times we say implementers must vs documents must, so we call that out here # 14:50 ben_thatmust ... some specific MUST and SHOULDS are called out here # 14:50 ben_thatmust ... if anyone wants to queue up, please do so # 14:51 ben_thatmust ... prefer this vocab over other vocabularies # 14:51 ben_thatmust ... there are JSON-LD features that should not be used # 14:51 ben_thatmust ... those are detailed throughout the doc # 14:52 ben_thatmust sandro: why are these all SHOULDs not MUSTs? # 14:52 ben_thatmust tantek: maybe we should make these MUSTs # 14:52 ben_thatmust eprodrom: the specific sections are SHOULDs # 14:52 ben_thatmust tantek: we should update the SHOULDS to MUSTS as this conformance section seems to say it optional # 14:53 ben_thatmust sandro: it seems rather odd to just repeat all of these from the document # 14:53 ben_thatmust eprodrom: i was trying to bring up key points for conformance jasnell joined the channel
# 14:54 tantek specifically, we could updated this: "Conforming publishers should make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2." to "Conforming publishers must make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2." annbass_ joined the channel
# 14:54 ben_thatmust eprodrom: there are ways within JSON-LD to specify multiple languages for example and an AS2 version of that and we are saying to not use those things specifically disallowed by the spec jasnell_ joined the channel
# 14:55 ben_thatmust eprodrom: let me ask a higher level question, i think the intention was to say "what is a good AS2 document?" and i wanted to collect that all in to one section # 14:55 ben_thatmust ... is that a worthwhile goal for this section? # 14:55 ben_thatmust ... is that the wrong kind of effort to put in to this conformance section # 14:56 ben_thatmust tantek: i think from a spec writing side, its better to prefer a MUST instead of a SHOULD # 14:56 ben_thatmust eprodrom: using 1.0 syntax for some of the properties is a MAY (from memory) # 14:57 ben_thatmust sandro: if you are as2 with some compatibility for as1 processors, are you "conformant" # 14:58 ben_thatmust tantek: is there a transition section in the spec? # 14:58 ben_thatmust eprodrom: yes # 14:58 ben_thatmust ... the idea is there are 2 media types # 14:58 ben_thatmust sandro: sounds like as2 media MUST NOT have as1 content # 14:58 ben_thatmust tantek: if you can't come up with a specific reason for a SHOULD, it must be a MUST # 14:59 ben_thatmust is probably over-scribing the_frey joined the channel
# 15:00 ben_thatmust rhiaro: if alternatives exist AS2 terms must be present, but you can have non as2 if there is no equivalent or as long as the equivalent is there # 15:01 ben_thatmust (some discussion about exact phrasing) # 15:03 ben_thatmust (i cannot scribe live editing sanely) # 15:04 tantek ben_thatmust ok to scribe just key changes that are being asserted # 15:05 ben_thatmust (edits to make last section more clearly) # 15:05 ben_thatmust sandro: have other editors been thinking about conformance clauses # 15:05 ben_thatmust aaronpk: webmention and micropub have short conformance clauses but nothing this complex # 15:06 ben_thatmust tantek: can acitivypub use that # 15:06 ben_thatmust sandro: its much more complex for document formats # 15:06 tantek consider s/Conforming publishers should make conforming documents/Conforming publishers must make conforming documents # 15:06 ben_thatmust eprodrom: done editing, it now says use the equivalents but also uses parallels # 15:08 ben_thatmust tantek: i had one more suggestion, in the publishers section # 15:08 ben_thatmust sandro: we haven't gotten there # 15:09 ben_thatmust eprodrom: there may be some other examples of documents we can add # 15:10 ben_thatmust ... i give a description of implementations as that word is used a lot # 15:10 ben_thatmust tantek: we can remove "human processors" # 15:11 ben_thatmust s/processors/processes/ # 15:11 ben_thatmust sandro: maybe specify they two types of implementations are publishers and consumers jaywink joined the channel
# 15:13 ben_thatmust sandro: i think we can say MUST consider, its not really any way to test or enforce that # 15:13 ben_thatmust ... at least make it stronger # 15:13 ben_thatmust tantek: human impact of the word MUST at least # 15:14 ben_thatmust eprodrom: since most of the publishing requirements are in the spec there is not much need for a large section here other than to say they have to create a document that conforms # 15:15 ben_thatmust ... the final section is on consumers # 15:16 ben_thatmust ... there are things that are MUSTs for them such as continuing to process if they hit things they don't understand # 15:17 ben_thatmust sandro: have you had feedback from jasnell_ on this? # 15:17 ben_thatmust eprodrom: no # 15:17 ben_thatmust tantek: has anyone heard from james? # 15:18 ben_thatmust eprodrom: lets make sure we get his sign off. # 15:18 jasnell_ haven't been able to follow along with the conversation for a bit # 15:19 ben_thatmust tantek: do you think there is enough experience with how feed-readers treat other formats, to provide a base of how readers MUST treat AS2? # 15:19 ben_thatmust eprodrom: thats true we do have some experience from nearby domains we could borrow from # 15:20 ben_thatmust tantek: we could at least say "if you are building a feed reader here is your list of MUSTs" # 15:20 ben_thatmust ... it would be a specific subsection for feed readers # 15:20 annbass_ BTW jasnell -- there's a talky stream going, if you want to listen more directly # 15:20 ben_thatmust Karli: do we mean an RSS reader here or more like a social client # 15:20 jasnell_ the conformance page looks ok, pretty light in terms of actual conformance rules but that's to be expected # 15:21 ben_thatmust tantek: its better to start more like an RSS reader, and we can expand later # 15:21 ben_thatmust ... i'm not sure we have the experience to do that for social networks yet # 15:22 jasnell_ for producers, something should be said about conforming to the rules of each property. For instance, "updated" and "published" must be iso8601 date-time # 15:22 ben_thatmust eprodrom: it would take me a while to do examples for all of these classes # 15:22 ben_thatmust tantek: i'm talking about only for 1 specifically, not for any others # 15:22 jasnell_ "name" and "nameMap" must not contain markup, and consumers must not treat it as markup # 15:22 jasnell_ "summary"/"content"/"summaryMap"/"contentMap", however, are HTML and consumers should treat them as such, etc # 15:22 ben_thatmust eprodrom: its a very good example to use too # 15:23 ben_thatmust ... i'm happy to do that, maybe even for tomorrow # 15:23 ben_thatmust Action eprodrom to add a section on feed readers to AS2 conformance section # 15:23 trackbot Created ACTION-86 - Add a section on feed readers to as2 conformance section [on Evan Prodromou - due 2016-03-23]. # 15:24 ben_thatmust tantek: i agree with jasnell_'s comments # 15:24 jasnell_ there are other examples, I'll see if I can come up with a more exhaustive list # 15:24 tantek and adding that consumers MUST treat them as such # 15:25 ben_thatmust eprodrom: if you should through this document for capital MUST and Capital SHOULD, we have 30 must 31 should, 18 for may # 15:25 ben_thatmust ... would recaping those be good for this section? # 15:25 ben_thatmust tantek: no, those requirements should be hardened # 15:25 jasnell_ but they include things like: on as:Link objects, the "id" property must not be considered to be the actual URL to the object, the "href" property must be used for that. The "id" and "href" can have the same value, but they serve different purposes # 15:25 eprodrom jasnell_: I count about 30-40 each of MUST, SHOULD, MAY in the text # 15:26 eprodrom Is the conformance section a good place to recapitulate them? # 15:26 eprodrom Or should be refer to them by reference ("serialization as in sectino 2") # 15:26 eprodrom s/sectino/section/ # 15:26 eprodrom jasnell_, such as for example, range of properties on different classes # 15:26 jasnell_ I'll take some time later on today and tomorrow to write up as many of these types of rules as I can # 15:27 eprodrom jasnell_: feel free to edit the wiki page # 15:27 ben_thatmust tantek: if those are specific properties, edit the spec # 15:27 ben_thatmust ... those requirements should go with the properties # 15:27 jasnell_ btw, my apologies for being awol the past couple of months, the Node community stuff has been keeping me quite occupied # 15:27 ben_thatmust ... later in the spec you can say "consumers MUST" and we know what a consumer is # 15:28 eprodrom jasnell_: no problem, just glad to get it here # 15:28 eprodrom jasnell_: let's powwow one-on-one for further editorial points # 15:29 jasnell_ if you would, send me a calendar invite for a time that works best for you # 15:29 ben_thatmust eprodrom: are there other things you would expect here or that are confusing? # 15:29 ben_thatmust sandro: i think this is good, the sort of lawyer perspective is what is someone going to get away with because of something we missed here? I think this is the right track but we can't guess what all those loopholes are in the future. # 15:30 ben_thatmust tantek: this is also going to feed into the test suite, any must can be captured in a test # 15:30 ben_thatmust eprodrom: is there a decision point we can make like "include a conformance section" i think we've already approved that, can we add this now as a first draft # 15:31 ben_thatmust sandro: i think we can do that and hope anyone spots any fixes before we publish again # 15:31 ben_thatmust tantek: i think this is good to go in now and i'd like to see it published sooner than later but we can talk about that in publishing schedule later # 15:32 ben_thatmust tantek: shall we take a break? # 15:32 ben_thatmust rhiaro: lunch is here, half an hour early # 15:32 ben_thatmust tantek: lets do issue labels section then break for lunch # 15:33 ben_thatmust TOPIC: Issue Labels # 15:33 ben_thatmust sandro: issues labels on github is an over-contraint problem, you'd like it to be overly clear but issues have to serve several different reasons # 15:34 ben_thatmust ... sometimes they are used for w3c process, sometimes for editors, sometimes for chairs # 15:34 ben_thatmust ... i tried to put that all togeter in to a repo of mine # 15:35 ben_thatmust ... commentor stuff is probably w3c process # 15:35 ben_thatmust ... mostly these are on closed issues # 15:35 ben_thatmust ... the Waiting ones are the ones the chairs would look at # 15:36 ben_thatmust ... these are things that would show up on the agenda # 15:36 ben_thatmust the greyed out ones are ones can sort of ignore # 15:37 ben_thatmust eprodrom: i have two questions on this, we have a large number of repos on this # 15:37 ben_thatmust sandro: i have a script that can put all of these on a repo # 15:37 ben_thatmust eprodrom: this is for a spec repo, what about software / test suite # 15:38 ben_thatmust sandro: i assumed a spec # 15:38 ben_thatmust eprodrom: is there any reason not to start doing this immediately? # 15:38 ben_thatmust tantek: i'd like to see fewer # 15:38 ben_thatmust dmitriz: "editorial" vs "editorial: spec is ambiguous" is there a difference there? # 15:39 ben_thatmust sandro: editorial is not important change, spec is ambiguous is a little more dangerous # 15:39 ben_thatmust tantek: that sounds not editorial # 15:40 ben_thatmust Karli: with owncloud we start with fewer and add them as we need them, its also not clear here who sets these labels # 15:41 ben_thatmust sandro: agreed though i'm not sure we have a good answer to that # 15:41 ben_thatmust ... someone with github permissions # 15:41 ben_thatmust eprodrom: my understanding is that some of these are anticipating questions of CR # 15:42 ben_thatmust sandro: for example we have 176 closed comments on AS2, we would want to have them all organized # 15:42 ben_thatmust tantek: i'm pretty sure thats for last calls etc, so we don't have to go through all old comments # 15:42 ben_thatmust sandro: i don't think thats true # 15:43 ben_thatmust tantek: in other groups after we went to CR we added them to "disposition of comments" but not before we went to CR # 15:44 ben_thatmust ... it was "have you actually responded to all comments after the last call for comments" # 15:44 ben_thatmust sandro: okay, maybe we don't have to do that, We SHOULD do that.. # 15:44 ben_thatmust tantek: i don't think we should, its a waste of our time # 15:45 ben_thatmust dmitriz: in the interest of reducing number of tags, 'waiting for' could be grouped shevski joined the channel
# 15:46 ben_thatmust aaronpk: as an editor i like to mark things specifically for the group # 15:46 ben_thatmust tantek: i think we should limit it to those that help the W3C Process, and add it as needed # 15:48 ben_thatmust sandro: for example james at last f2f, he had to organize them for us # 15:48 ben_thatmust ... this would give us that organization # 15:49 ben_thatmust cwebber2: it would help us get some idea of priority setting # 15:51 ben_thatmust eprodrom: i don't think we are going to come up with an agreed upon list before lunch and i want to eat # 15:52 ben_thatmust sandro: other idea is to add these to the repos and remove any unused ones after a month annbass_ joined the channel
# 15:52 ben_thatmust shevski: we could vote like on the voice # 15:52 ben_thatmust shevski: i think that list is too long, i'd be interested to know which are the most important # 15:52 ben_thatmust ... I wouldn't know what are the most important ones # 15:53 ben_thatmust eprodrom: can i suggest moving this to a wiki page and edit it down there? # 15:54 rhiaro wonders what happens if we pave the cowpaths then discover all we have is chickens # 15:54 ben_thatmust aaronpk: i would need a description of what each of these are and what they are all needed for # 15:55 tantek rhiaro cowpaths are also not efficient as footpaths # 15:55 ben_thatmust aaronpk: maybe we just start with a list of these as the official list and if i need to add it, i look up the list and add it as needed to github # 15:55 ben_thatmust sandro: i can give you the CURL to add those with those colors # 15:56 ben_thatmust aaronpk: that does not sound like a lot of work for me # 15:58 ben_thatmust aaronpk: without these labels the editor has a lot more work # 15:58 ben_thatmust ... these labels would help other people to work on the spec # 15:58 ben_thatmust eprodrom: when do we move our repos under the w3c space on github? # 15:58 ben_thatmust tantek: its not a requirement # 16:00 ben_thatmust sandro: i'll add something of a description of them all to the wiki with their colors # 16:00 ben_thatmust tantek: i'm happy to add what i think is important of these # 16:01 ben_thatmust AnnBass: i printed out and ran through editorial changes for the 3 specs on the reading list # 16:02 ben_thatmust i'll give those to editors # 16:02 ben_thatmust Action sandro to add labels to the wiki with short description of each # 16:02 trackbot Created ACTION-87 - Add labels to the wiki with short description of each [on Sandro Hawke - due 2016-03-23]. # 16:02 annbass_ Jasnell: I have a paper print of AS, with a few "English" edits ... Would it work for me to give it to Arnaud next week, to give to you? # 16:03 annbass_ (Paper is easier for me to edit in this manner, than online ... For making suggestions to you) # 16:03 ben_thatmust tantek: we are on lunch until 1pm to do as2 validator and taking as2 to CR both of which are led by evan so i'll chair and then we can swap off for the rest of the day # 16:03 Loqi I added a countdown for 3/16 1:00pm (#5815) # 16:05 jasnell_ annbass_ : I'm not likely to see arnaud soon, but if you'd like to scan and email me a copy I'll make the edits # 16:06 annbass_ Whoops ... A lotta pages to scan ... Maybe give me your snail mail address in private, and I'll do that? annbass__ joined the channel
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# 16:12 Arnaud just so you know I've not been able to get any sounds out of talky # 16:12 ben_thatmust wates to Arnaud Karli, annbass_, jtilles, shevski, annbas___, annbass, annbass__ and dmitriz joined the channel
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# 17:00 Arnaud in the meantime I tried another computer and had the same results so I'm pretty sure the problem isn't on my side jasnell, eprodrom and tantek joined the channel
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# 17:12 tantek eprodrom is getting setup to demo the AS2 validator shevski joined the channel
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# 17:15 tantek Topic: Demo: Activity Streams 2.0 Validator (Evan Prodromou) # 17:16 aaronpk you can hear evan okay? he's on the opposite side of the room as the mic annbass joined the channel
# 17:16 cwebber2 eprodrom: well I'll get started then. The point of this demonstration from a pull-back, one of the things we have to do as we bring AS2 to recommendation is have a test suite. But one question is what that means for a document format specification. We've taken it to mean two parts # 17:16 cwebber2 eprodrom: 1 a set of document formats that we expect consumers to consumes, that's in the activitystreams-test-documents, composed of examples from AS Core and Vocabulary specifications, as well as jasnell's javascript stuff for AS2 annbass joined the channel
# 17:17 Arnaud I've been following via irc but sound makes for a much better experience :) # 17:17 cwebber2 eprodrom: our expectation is those writing consumer implementations should be able to consume this, and if their thing explodes they know they have a problem # 17:17 cwebber2 eprodrom: so it's a fairly low impact test suite for consumers # 17:18 cwebber2 eprodrom: 200 docs, thanks. on public side we need to validate ? so we decided to build a validator # 17:19 cwebber2 ... so this is a way to test your documents. the as2 validator is written in node.js, canonical verison at as2.rocks, if there's a reason to run another version we can do that too, software is under w3c software license # 17:19 cwebber2 ... 2 ways to submit to validator: paste the URL into the URL area; if you see there's things at GitHub let's get the raw version of documents # 17:20 cwebber2 ... there are bad parts, I think it's served as plaintext, but let's just say we've got this # 17:20 cwebber2 ... when we hit the url we see this validation report, we see that it's from one of the example documents # 17:20 cwebber2 ... I'm not crazy about this reports, there are 3 errors which I think is too high, but I think it's a way to do that submission # 17:20 cwebber2 ... the problem is that we've got several objects in here without a required name property # 17:21 cwebber2 ... it's one thing that comes up, it's a MUST with few examples in the spec # 17:21 cwebber2 ... the other thing that we could do here is to copy paste it in here, take this same document, copy pasta, run another validation # 17:22 cwebber2 ... you can also upload a file, so you can say hey look, I'm in the test documents, how useful, upload that, validate it # 17:22 cwebber2 ... and there we go. lastly, you can use the validate endpoint as an api endpoint and via your fave programming language or curl on the command line, you can do that # 17:23 cwebber2 ... so this is just a curl command line http client, will shoot it off to the endpoint # 17:24 cwebber2 ... the endpoint returns first a list of notes, similar to what we see in the html interface, also returns the input that it received so you can verify you actually got what you thought you did # 17:24 cwebber2 ... so that is a way to do some validation from the command line... I use this to validate all the documents that are in the test document suite # 17:24 cwebber2 sandro: when I try that I get html with a link to the validator # 17:25 cwebber2 eprodrom: you have to do something to tell curl to do the redirects if you use http # 17:25 cwebber2 eprodrom: I think this should follow a lot of the use cases, I think there may be other ones, but api endpoint is kind of a failsafe on the rest # 17:26 cwebber2 eprodrom: speaking of validation, one of the things that's interesting about AS2 is that it's very permissive. an empty javascript object is a valid AS2 document # 17:26 cwebber2 eprodrom: no properties are absolutely property, only one is that you MUST have a name on certain kinds of documents # 17:26 cwebber2 eprodrom: despite that, there are some better and worse AS2 docs # 17:26 cwebber2 eprodrom: so we might tell users there are things we'd like to see # 17:27 cwebber2 .... I'm not sure where this comes from but I know it from syslog style errors... ERROR, WARNING, NOTICE, INFO # 17:27 cwebber2 ... MUST should do error, should should do warning, style issues should be notices or informational, maybe a style thing # 17:28 cwebber2 ... notice is something you should probably change, and info is just info # 17:28 cwebber2 ... this seems to be working pretty well... I've implemented almost all the MUST, most of the SHOULDs, and a few of the MAYs and optional properties I haven't yet followed up on # 17:29 cwebber2 for most of the properties and thet ypes we have in AS2.0 the domain and range of propertis are if you have an actor for the activity what are the things it could be # 17:29 cwebber2 ... so domain and range of properties, required properties, recommended properties, things allowed and not # 17:29 cwebber2 sandro: so test documents are those all supposed to be OK documents? or should they be categorized with some as errors, warnings # 17:29 cwebber2 eprodrom: good question, all of them are "these should work" # 17:30 cwebber2 eprodrom: yes maybe that doc or our spec that needs fixing # 17:30 cwebber2 sandro: it might be nice to manually sort so we can test this # 17:30 cwebber2 tantek: it's realtively stable at this point, could we add links for all warnings and errors? # 17:30 cwebber2 tantek: that way if someone gets an error they can click it to see how to fix it # 17:31 cwebber2 eprodrom: there are two views, you can see submitting or validation report, at the moment it's pretty plain janes but # 17:32 cwebber2 eprodrom: yes, you can also tell one thing it's not doing here is complaining that it's being served as text/plain, which is one more thing it can do # 17:33 cwebber2 tantek: do you have any live sites on the web you can link to # 17:33 cwebber2 tantek: valid challenge to working group: who can get a valid stream on their site first # 17:35 cwebber2 ... one nice thing is our discussions are not subject to rfc2019 # 17:36 cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd love help, styling would be nice, I'm not sure, maybe tabs # 17:37 cwebber2 tantek: next topic is taking AS2 to CR, which is also yours eprodrom :) # 17:38 cwebber2 eprodrom: what I'd like to do is my understanding is that we had three things we needed to do to get AS2 to CR state # 17:39 cwebber2 eprodrom: these three things were to first resolve (blocking) issues, second provide a test suite, third provide a conformance section # 17:39 cwebber2 eprodrom: I think as it stands we have first drafts or early versions of those three things # 17:39 cwebber2 eprodrom: I may need to confirm that about the issues but at least in terms of test suite we have what we've kind of laid out as in terms of test suite, and we have conformance section in a draft state # 17:40 cwebber2 tantek: for test suite do you have at least one test per feature of the sepc # 17:40 cwebber2 eprodrom: would that be like for each type in the vocab have on document for each one # 17:40 cwebber2 ... a property in as2 can't be an empty array for example # 17:40 cwebber2 ... here's a document with an empty array, throw an error # 17:41 cwebber2 tantek: do you have a test for an assertion for each part of the spec # 17:41 cwebber2 eprodrom: since we have tests from documentation examples, we have pretty good coverage # 17:41 cwebber2 tantek: that's ok, having a comprehensive test suite is not a requirement to enter CR (but it is to enter) # 17:42 cwebber2 tantek: was it raised as an issue to define granularity # 17:42 cwebber2 eprodrom: we went down an interesting path with that one, and it got caught up with the conformance classes # 17:43 cwebber2 tantek: we have conformance section, have test suite with a lot of cases covered, so that leaves the open issues # 17:43 cwebber2 sandro: we have 12, and I won't snark that they aren't labeled ;) # 17:43 cwebber2 ... one of them is editorial but it's not my version of editorial! # 17:44 cwebber2 sandro: it has more in the issue than the title sounds like # 17:45 cwebber2 eprodrom: so we have quite a few here, some are questions, some may be... I'm not sure if we should mark these as blocking or not # 17:45 Arnaud issues like "why is as2 so bloated?" should be closed with a comment stating that this is not actionable, if any particular part is questioned they should be listed in a separate issue Karli joined the channel
# 17:46 cwebber2 tantek: the question is for you, how much time do you think you need to resolve these, and which of these do you want to ask for some group discussion on to move them forward # 17:46 aaronpk "this is not actionable" is my favorite way to close issues :P # 17:47 cwebber2 eprodrom: not ready to do that today, I might be able to tomorrow, I'd like to run by james, would be great if we could run from 12 to 6 # 17:47 cwebber2 tantek: I'd like to get as close as we can to that by end of this meeting # 17:47 cwebber2 ... so given what you said about not willing to categorize, can you be by tomorrow morning? # 17:47 cwebber2 ... we have agenda item scheduling and... we could do that first thing # 17:48 cwebber2 ... or you might come back tomorrow and say you resolved all # 17:48 cwebber2 sandro: james may participate remotely, maybe we can get an answer from him about ?? # 17:48 cwebber2 tantek: determine which you need group help for, then can james be present or is he happy to delegate to you about the issues # 17:48 cwebber2 tantek: otherwise will add to agenda for tomorrow morning; go through AS2 issues # 17:49 cwebber2 eprodrom: could I ask for rest of group to look through this? may speed discussion if people understand what topics are # 17:50 cwebber2 ... some of these like conformance clause you reasonably fixed azaroth joined the channel
# 17:50 cwebber2 eprodrom: yeah we were almost done by last f2f, but then we had f2f explosion with new issues # 17:50 cwebber2 ... this one is interesting can try to take that on today # 17:52 cwebber2 tantek: every document I've seen has CR exit criteria in spec or include it inline # 17:54 cwebber2 shevski: why not have it be in the official w3c-social? # 17:55 cwebber2 aaronpk: it isn't a requirement to do so, some required moving to their own group # 17:55 Zakim sees cwebber at the head of the speaker queue # 17:55 cwebber2 annbass: question is is there some process where it should go ahead of CR, I could easily see one person's repo goes south or something # 17:56 cwebber2 aaronpk: before github was used more mailing list was only place to do that, but now github is using more # 17:56 cwebber2 ... so I wonder if we should be archiving that discussion # 17:58 aaronpk it seems there is not a good answer to the particular question of archiving the github issues discussions # 17:59 rhiaro eprodrom: does the validator send an accept header? # 17:59 Loqi I added a countdown for 3/16 11:10am (#5817) # 17:59 rhiaro I could look at the source but it's easier to ask :) Karli_, Karli and bengo joined the channel
# 18:08 Arnaud good thing I wasn't trying to keep it a secret ;-) # 18:09 Loqi Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 10:59am # 18:09 aaronpk you're the only one on the talky right now anyway :P shevski joined the channel
# 18:10 ben_thatmustbeme suggests a joke involving starting with a command prompt full screen, so your demo starts promptly eprodrom_ joined the channel
# 18:14 rhiaro TOPIC: Demo of pump.io - mediagoblin federation # 18:14 rhiaro tsyesika: this is a predecessor to activitypub, the pumpio as1 stuff # 18:15 rhiaro ... Going to add a photo onto media goblin and send it to a pump io user # 18:15 tantek aaronpk are you going to demo your event posting with an event for this f2f? # 18:16 rhiaro ... it has federated from mediagoblin to pumpio # 18:16 rhiaro ... Back into mediagoblin, the reply should show # 18:16 aaronpk tantek yes i have a micropub CRUD with a note, and then posting an event for this f2f queued up # 18:16 tantek ben_thatmustbeme earlier you had said you could demo using Woodwind to RSVP (or comment)? on an event using your website? Ready to do that? # 18:17 rhiaro tsyesika: Coming up in the release after next # 18:17 rhiaro ... How does it work for idfferent media types? # 18:17 rhiaro ... Media goblin is generous with media types # 18:17 ben_thatmustbeme tantek yes, give me a moment to make sure everything looks good, but i think i'm good # 18:17 rhiaro tyesika: Media goblin has a todo to support video and audio in the api for federation. Currently only images federated # 18:18 rhiaro ... It will support them in the same way as images. Serialise the video or audio as how as1 defines them, and do the same post request to the inbox # 18:18 rhiaro eprodrom: About likes... do they translate to media goblin? # 18:18 rhiaro ... If you go to the pumpio page and click like on it # 18:18 rhiaro tsyesika: they will work by the time I finish mediagoblin # 18:18 rhiaro eprodrom: What do you think next steps are with this? # 18:19 rhiaro tsyesika: Currently we don't have comments that you make in mediagoblin federated *back*. All activities need to federate and there will be support of like and the others. # 18:19 rhiaro ... And then probably the media types as you brought up # 18:19 rhiaro ... One of the reasons media goblin is good is support of media types # 18:19 rhiaro ... And eventually having a up to date implementation of activitypub # 18:20 rhiaro cwebber2: I think it's interesting for the group to know that tsyesika has been working on this for a long time, and you might wonder why it took so long to get to this point, and I think it would be interesting for you to explain what the challenges are # 18:20 rhiaro tsyesika: The overwhelming biggest thing for mediagoblin why it took so long is because of the database structure # 18:20 rhiaro ... Mediagoblin uses sql, postgres or sqlite, and it was designed prior to federation and the pump api # 18:21 rhiaro ... having things like comments that can be on other things, comments on comments and other things being in collections, involves creating generic keys # 18:21 rhiaro ... something something referential integrity # 18:21 rhiaro ... Lots of challenges implementing federation on an existing implementation # 18:21 rhiaro eprodrom: That's a really interesting point, pumpio uses document databases, so couchbase or mongo or redis, but it's relatively easy to wedge little bits of data into places that they weren't intended # 18:21 rhiaro ... which is harder to do with an sql database # 18:22 rhiaro cwebber2: we're theoretically advocating ... and this applies to others.. it's a general problem when you have assumptinos about what types of things are responses to other types of things # 18:22 rhiaro ... Like comments ony being on media, that was an easy assumption, but the rest of the world might not assume that # 18:22 rhiaro ... We don't have an answer for constraints in federation # 18:22 rhiaro ... and this will be a challenge for owncloud as well. We haven't talked about this in the gorup # 18:23 rhiaro ... How to convert existing applications that were designed before you planned to federate, and move them into the federation wrold # 18:23 rhiaro ... We're managing it with media goblin thanks to jessica, but not everyone will have the resources for that # 18:23 rhiaro ... WHat can we do to help people know and prepare fo rdoing this? # 18:23 rhiaro ... Do we permit organisations to set these kinds of constraints? # 18:23 rhiaro Karli: database structure is part of that, but not every social network works the same # 18:23 rhiaro ... Facebook and g+ and twitter all have apis that work differently # 18:24 rhiaro ... twitter has obvious limitations with the size of the text, if you can like, if there are comments or retweets which don't exist in other social networks # 18:24 rhiaro ... It's a huge question. Good to have an api that you can use to model all kinds of social interactions, but does it mena that every social network has to support everything that every other social network supports? # 18:24 rhiaro ... You could drop things that are not supported # 18:24 rhiaro eprodrom: that's probably a great way to handle it # 18:25 rhiaro ... You oculd have a little grey image icon 'there is something here I don't understand' # 18:25 rhiaro ... some embedded stuff that doesn't make sense # 18:25 rhiaro tantek: the experience with webmention is that there are situations where having defined fallback behaviour is useful and implementable. And also sometimes just dropping stuff works. Very case by case. # 18:26 rhiaro ... By starting with.. just get comments working. Suddenly everything else can have a fallback that can be interpreted as a comment # 18:26 rhiaro ... So when people started doing lieks via webmention, by including a summary in your like that says 'so and so likes this' # 18:26 rhiaro ... if you understand likes you ignore the summary and just increment your counter or whatever # 18:26 rhiaro ... but if you don't, you can display it as a comment # 18:26 rhiaro Karli: so it's the responsibilty of the consumer to ignore or translate something? # 18:27 rhiaro tantek: we didn't have to, because comments were designed in such a way to handle summary/content/etc, that later interactions could provide fallback content like a summary, so that something that only implements comments doesn't have to do anything new # 18:27 rhiaro ... You end up with long comment threads full of emoji # 18:28 rhiaro ... Slack did a thing where they showed the emoji with the number of people who reacted with that # 18:28 rhiaro ... So we're starting to experiment with that, so ifyou don't do anything an dsomeone posts an emoji reply you show it as a comment, but if you want to you can not show it as a comment you can pull it up and create a counter # 18:28 rhiaro ... the like example seems trivial becasue everyoen knows what it is, but now it's happening again # 18:29 rhiaro cwebber2: one of the things that's interesting about ... you must have started with a database structure that still allows that # 18:29 rhiaro ... but existing implementatkons like mediagoblin start with databases where it's still difficult to even do fallbacks in that way # 18:29 rhiaro ... if your table only contains these fields, what do you do as a fallback? If you have hard coded links between tables, you need to be able to make that generic enough to do fallbacks # 18:30 rhiaro ... In indieweb you have this view that everything is a post and you can adapt that. But other things don't have that assumption in their worldview # 18:30 rhiaro ... So how do we build on these different world views? # 18:30 rhiaro ... You would be surprised at the different world views, even trying to be accommodating for fallbacks # 18:30 rhiaro tantek: the more you can minimise those assumptions the better # 18:30 rhiaro cwebber2: that's not necesarily true for an organisation that already came in iwth its own assumptions # 18:31 rhiaro tantek: from a spec point of view. Of course organisations have their own assumptions. But with a spec, the more you can minimise the assumption sthat you're asking peopel to take on, the less work it is to make it compatible # 18:31 rhiaro shevski: the problem also is that this stuff is going to continue to evolve # 18:31 rhiaro ... it's going to be really fluid. You don't want want to get into a race of being compatible now, because it's not going to stay around. It needs to be generic and extensible, and quite basic int erms of standards # 18:31 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue # 18:31 rhiaro tantek: we've done both, compatible with now and generic # 18:32 rhiaro ... the web took off because every single piece was cmpatibile with what already existed # 18:32 rhiaro ... you could serve html over ftp, or plain text over http # 18:32 rhiaro eprodrom: I'd like to bring it back to the pumpio and mediagoblin federation # 18:32 rhiaro ... There is a lot of pumpio federation process that's kind of string and chewing gum Karli joined the channel
# 18:33 rhiaro ... THe oauth key discovery process is like from an older version of oauth2 that's no longer compatible nicolagreco joined the channel
# 18:33 rhiaro ... And probably other bits, hacked to make them work # 18:33 rhiaro ... Do you think that where we're going with activitypub is going to .. what's th erelationship with all that stuff and where we're going with activitypub? # 18:34 rhiaro ... ap at the moment doesn't specify too much of those details # 18:34 rhiaro cwebber2: we were also told not to pick a stance there # 18:34 rhiaro tsyesika: so it's vague, so currently they would be incompatible because you can implement oauth2 in several ways # 18:34 bengo <3 OIDC (which is a more specified flavor of oauth2) # 18:34 rhiaro ... the discovery stuff, we do have stuff but we think it will change # 18:34 rhiaro cwebber2: we already agreed on some change. We just haven't written yet # 18:34 bengo including discovery, dynamic client registration, etc # 18:35 rhiaro tsyesika: so doesn't specify all of that, but as a downside will lead to incompatible implemenations without specifying # 18:35 rhiaro cwebber2: do you think there's anything other than auth? # 18:35 bengo Fair. Communities of different size tho # 18:35 rhiaro tsyesika: i don't think anything other that's major # 18:35 aaronpk except dynamic client registration isn't necessary because clients are defined by their URLs # 18:35 rhiaro cwebber2: that's the big thing that's a known problem. If it's a constraint then it's a constraint # 18:36 rhiaro eprodrom: I see two ways of doing that. One is to include authenticaiton and say this is how you get an oauth 2 key in order to make these calls, and here are the steps # 18:36 rhiaro ... Another way to maintain compatibility is to have a suite of specifications, AP specifically talks about getting your activities back and forth, and then a discovery specification and an authentication specification or something like that, which would be short # 18:37 rhiaro cwebber2: I think discovery would be smooth put in there, but authentication I would be enthusiastic about saying there are auxilliary specs, but they might not make it to rec within this group's lifetime, but we have something that we can point people to. I think that's a good route. # 18:37 rhiaro eprodrom: this is a lot of trouble to go to to end up with incompatible implementations # 18:37 rhiaro ... As one of the other people who has done this, I know how much trouble this was # 18:37 rhiaro tantek: how much work would it be to update these implementations to use as2/ap # 18:37 rhiaro tsyesika: I don't think.. it's still significant amount of work, but not too bad # 18:38 rhiaro cwebber2: lots of things close, major things that are different are.. moving from as1 to as2 is not very hard, but needs to be done. # 18:38 rhiaro ... We need to change over the way it does discovery # 18:38 rhiaro ... I think there are a lot more small things, but most things are close # 18:38 rhiaro cwebber2: shouldnt' be as much work as it was to restructure the database # 18:39 rhiaro Going to be far less work to get to that point # 18:39 rhiaro tantek: When do you think you'll have an implementaiton of the current version of ap? annbass joined the channel
# 18:39 rhiaro cwebber2: this depends on resources within the project. We were lucky that we could bring jessica on with a crowdfunding campaign # 18:39 rhiaro ... now that money is ending and jessica got a job that is supprotive of her work in this group luckily # 18:40 rhiaro ... But I'm currently at Stripe retreat, but after this we don't know what our resources are. Might be volunteers # 18:40 rhiaro ... THe stuff that you're seeing here is for a release in the next week # 18:40 rhiaro ... Then we're polishing 1.0, then we'll start moving things towards ap # 18:41 rhiaro ... How long that will take... I'm already bad at estimations... so doing that for a project where I have no idea what our resources are, I'm not going to bother # 18:41 rhiaro tantek: so you think you can release with this implementation? # 18:41 rhiaro cwebber2: yes, with notes that should expect federation stuff to change, and in the interim it will federate with pumpio # 18:41 rhiaro ... Users are expecting that first stage of federation will be at this level # 18:42 rhiaro cwebber2: I'm more worried about authentication for that # 18:42 rhiaro ... Don't want jessica's work to not get out there # 18:42 rhiaro ... Really want working federation otu the door # 18:43 rhiaro tantek: several generations of frozen federation suites out there that are being left behind. Like diaspora, federating amongst itslef and nobody else. And GNU social. Thousands of users, but not federating with others, only themselves. # 18:43 rhiaro ... This is why I'm concerned that if you're going to make a release that includes this work will it end up like one of those, or will it move quickly and break things? # 18:43 rhiaro cwebber2: I'm hopi;ng move quickly and break things # 18:43 rhiaro ... our goal is to support the work in this group # 18:44 Loqi can confirm that lunch will be delivered # 18:44 Loqi Countdown set by rhiaro on 3/16/16 at 7:37am # 18:44 rhiaro ... And some people in disapora are paying attention to what we're doing here # 18:44 rhiaro eprodrom: Can I challenge us to do a similar demo to this with AP in portland? # 18:44 rhiaro ... But it's going to be a tumultuous time in our lives # 18:44 rhiaro ... We will try, but no promises. Set your expecations accordingly. # 18:45 rhiaro Karli: I'm still part outsider.. but at owncloud we want to implement something soon. But we need something that is relatively stable # 18:45 rhiaro tantek: what level of breaking new ground vs. interoperating with a few things vs interoperating with a lot ofthings are you comfortable with? # 18:46 rhiaro Karli: We already implemented federation for sharing files 1.5 years ago, and several of the steps here # 18:46 rhiaro ... Version 3 of our api which is backward compatible, and 1.5 years later it's something 'stable' or 1.0 # 18:46 rhiaro ... But as I understand this group, there are some really different approaches, like activitypub and solid stuff and other approaches, which are completely different # 18:46 rhiaro ... We can't implement 2 or 3 different approaches # 18:49 rhiaro aaronpk: Since the last time we talked I've worked on spec and implementation to support editing and deleting posts # 18:49 rhiaro ... Quill is a micropub client that I wrote that currently only supports creating # 18:49 rhiaro ... My website is the micropub server which uspports full CRUD # 18:49 rhiaro ... And there's a micropub client built into my site # 18:51 Arnaud the screen sharing is gone unfortunately but if it crashes everything... # 18:52 rhiaro aaronpk: So, created a post. It's on my site here # 18:52 rhiaro ... Location sent with browser location api to micropub request # 18:53 rhiaro aaronpk: When I'm logged into my site, I have a menu bar which lets me edit # 18:54 rhiaro ... Because I'm logged in my site generates an access token the client can pull out of the page # 18:54 rhiaro ... I gave myself a couple of fields I commonly want to edit: tags, syndication urls, date # 18:54 rhiaro ... What's happening is the js app is talking to my micropub endpoint directly, no other serverside componant at all # 18:55 rhiaro ... In order to populate this interface with existing tags etc, it uses a new part of micropub which is the R in CRUD which lets the client request specific properties # 18:55 rhiaro ... I don't need to load the entire content of the post to edit # 18:55 rhiaro ... So it reuqests just the pieces that it needs # 18:55 rhiaro ... There's no way to edit the text of the post with this interface, don't have a client for thsi yet # 18:56 rhiaro ... Turns out that I don't often edit the text. Wanted to optimise this for the most common edits # 18:56 rhiaro ... Do plan on building a full editor for html posts in Quill # 18:56 KevinMarks why is videoconferencing still so flaky? I had this working in 1999 with tiny amounts of RAM and it ran for weeks at a time # 18:57 cwebber2 KevinMarks: let's move back to webcams with pages that refresh every 30 seconds on a jpeg link # 18:57 rhiaro ... JS client could drop in with one file. Only special thing is how to get the access token, but I don't see why other people can't reuse it nicolagreco joined the channel
# 18:59 eprodrom_ jasnell: so, big favour to ask you # 18:59 bengo sound just came on for me # 19:00 rhiaro aaronpk: Here's a new interface in quill for posting events. Needs cleaning up, but minimal and works # 19:00 KevinMarks and the gpu just coughed a hirball and blacked out all my browser windows # 19:01 rhiaro KevinMarks could you keep asides in emotes please so there's less minute-clenaing to do # 19:01 rhiaro aaronpk: Event posted to my site, and appears in Woodwind, a reader # 19:01 rhiaro ... The reader recognises that this is an event post and adds these additional rsvp buttons # 19:02 rhiaro ... I authenticated with the reader, and during that process I granted it an access token that lets it become a micropub client to my site # 19:02 rhiaro ... So when I click a star on a post, it makes a micropub request to my site # 19:02 rhiaro ... Similarly, when I click an rsvp button it makes an rsvp post on my site # 19:02 rhiaro ... So I see the rsvp in the events feed on my site # 19:03 rhiaro aaronpk: created in quill, quill added it to my site, woodwind read it from my site, woodwind created a new post to rsvp and posted that to my site # 19:03 rhiaro shevski: in what ways can I rsvp to your event? # 19:03 rhiaro aaronpk: You can rsvp by writing a post on your site htat's an rsvp post and send a webmention to this page # 19:04 rhiaro shevski: any other way? Only way is for me to create a post on my site using...? # 19:04 rhiaro aaronpk: doesn't matter how you create as long as it iends with with html + microformats # 19:04 rhiaro shevski: Why can't I go on your site and click a button? # 19:06 rhiaro aaronpk: my site is not a general purpose events site, it's just my site. I also don't have a comments form. # 19:08 rhiaro dmitriz: is there any access control? Can events be private? # 19:08 rhiaro dmitriz: haven't had chance to look at the spec, how does the recipient of the webmention discover that is of type event # 19:08 rhiaro aaronpk: here's the parsed microformats of the rsvp post. has in-reply-to and rsvp properties # 19:09 rhiaro ... that's enough that my site recognises that it's an rsvp # 19:09 rhiaro ... THe event itself looks like this, which has type: h-event, and start and end date # 19:09 rhiaro ... The post type discovery spec tells you how to get from amicroformats object to something else # 19:10 rhiaro dmitriz: you don't have access control on this site, but is there provision for private and public? # 19:10 rhiaro aaronpk: what you're talking about would be more on the reading and consuming parts of the spec # 19:10 rhiaro ... THe way that woodwind found the post, you would need to have a way to authenticate to begin with # 19:11 rhiaro ... We don't have anything.. woodwind found this via PuSH and polling the feed. There isn't a mechanism in PuSH to support private posts. But it's on the consuming side rather than the micropub side # 19:11 rhiaro ... Similarly in webmention we need a way to verify things that are private # 19:12 rhiaro tantek: I have an rsvp post that I"m going to be sending to aaron's event # 19:14 rhiaro ... Is showing debugging info about finding webmention endpoints # 19:18 Loqi I added a countdown for 3/16 12:40pm (#5818) # 19:18 Arnaud for a French it is always confusing to hear how Americans use the term RSVP shevski and tantek joined the channel
# 19:27 KevinMarks well the R part is the verb Respondez S'il Vous Plait - "respond if it pleases you" bengo joined the channel
# 19:30 KevinMarks but RSVP becomes a noun, and then a verb becasue that's how English imports external code Karli joined the channel
# 19:39 Loqi Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 12:18pm Karli_, Karli and snarfed joined the channel
# 19:45 eprodrom_ jasnell: so, the only thing keeping us from voting to take AS2 to CR is that there are a number of open issues on the repo # 19:46 jasnell just need to know how the WG chooses to resolve those # 19:46 eprodrom_ So, the favor was, "Please weigh in on them by tomorrow morning so we have an idea where you stand." # 19:48 eprodrom_ It's likely that unless there's some intense debate tomorrow we'll default to resolving per your recommendation Karli joined the channel
# 19:50 Arnaud it's also that it seems to be used both for the question and the response in english, that's the most confusing part to me # 19:51 Arnaud yes, it is used as an abbreviation but only at the bottom of an invitation or something like that shevski joined the channel
# 19:53 Arnaud in French RSVP is merely used as the prompt/question # 19:54 rhiaro requests linguistics discussions postponed until later # 19:54 rhiaro ben_thatmust: *shows rsvp demo, same as aaronpk's* # 19:55 rhiaro ... post with a single emoji in it is the original post tantek joined the channel
# 19:55 rhiaro eprodrom: it's not a different post type, it's just ap ost that has a single emoji? So you're looking in the content? # 19:56 rhiaro ben_thatmust: yes, I'm parsing out if it's a single emoji. Much harder than I expected # 19:56 rhiaro ... An emoji is a bunch of characters, or two letters that form a flag, which is a single emoji # 19:59 Loqi Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 9:03am # 19:59 eprodrom_ "*it is a poop*" # 20:00 rhiaro Karli: owncloud is not technically a social network # 20:00 rhiaro ... First, install owncloud server - unzipping a file # 20:01 rhiaro ... lots in to userdatamanifesto.org/owncloud # 20:01 ben_thatmustbeme not a ton of code as i was able to cut it down quite a bit from the original version, but still way longer than i expected originally # 20:01 tantek How many webmention implementations were demonstrated (sending, receiving), and how many Micropub implementations were demonstrated (clients, servers) ? # 20:01 rhiaro ... desktop and mobile clients are synchronised for files and favourites, comments, tags # 20:02 rhiaro ... Owncloud is not social in itself, its for protecting my own files # 20:02 rhiaro ... you can have calendar, contacts, gallery, all kinds of things # 20:02 rhiaro ... So now we have two servers, we can do federation # 20:02 rhiaro ... Can share calendar etc with other pepole, uses caldav # 20:03 rhiaro ... calendar is one of the most popular owncloud use cases these days # 20:03 rhiaro ... here's a folder of documents with an example .odt file # 20:03 aaronpk webmention implementations were: Falcon (sending), p3k's Telegraph (sending), webmention.io (receiving), ben.thatmustbe.me (sending and receiving) # 20:03 rhiaro ... here is the sharing side bar, can share with people on the same server, or I can send out links to everyone, or I can do federation # 20:03 rhiaro ... For federation I type in a federation ID which is a host name + a username # 20:04 rhiaro ... so I can now do federation with a user on another server # 20:04 aaronpk micropub implementations were: p3k (server), Quill (client), Woodwind (client), ben.thatmustbe.me (server and client) # 20:04 rhiaro ... one server pings the other server and says here is a sharing request # 20:04 rhiaro ... on the other server, it shows a notification which lets me accept the sharing request # 20:04 rhiaro ... I have the documents folder shared between the two servers # 20:04 rhiaro ... The actual transfer of the files is done via webdav # 20:05 rhiaro ... but we had to come up with our own protocol for the invitation process # 20:05 rhiaro ... so this was implemented 1.5 years ago. Nowadays solid does stuff here that could have been resused but wasn't because of timing # 20:05 rhiaro ... The social part is then if you click on this shared folder the sidebar opens, which lets you comment # 20:05 rhiaro ... which is visible to everyone with access to this file # 20:05 rhiaro ... and there's an activitystream which lets you see what's happening with this folder. New files, comments, changes # 20:05 rhiaro ... And there's an overall activity feed where I can see everything that's going on on my server # 20:06 rhiaro sandro: does the activity feed live on the same server as the file? # 20:06 rhiaro sandro: so if 100 people share a file, there's one feed? # 20:06 rhiaro Karli: everyone with access to a file or folder also sees the activity on this file or folder # 20:06 rhiaro sandro: if I make a comment it's sent back to the server where the file is # 20:06 rhiaro Karli: this is the part that's missing. We do everything with webdav. Sharing information including comments via webdav # 20:07 rhiaro ... We could just read comments from remote servers via webdav # 20:07 rhiaro ... but if there's a different appraoch we would implement that # 20:07 rhiaro dmitriz: how do yu handle permissions and access control? # 20:07 rhiaro Karli: if you go on a folder, sharing, there are different ways to share # 20:07 rhiaro ... you can password protect links, allow expiry, allow read only # 20:07 rhiaro ... expiration date google announced yesterday, but we had for 5 years # 20:08 rhiaro Karli: Other people can delete files, or add a new file in a shared folder # 20:08 rhiaro dmitriz: where do you store access control information? # 20:08 rhiaro Karli: filesystem for storing files, metadata including access control in database # 20:08 rhiaro ... So not a social network, we're approaching this from a different direction # 20:09 rhiaro ... Idea was for file hosting. But of course I want to share my files with someone # 20:09 rhiaro ... But without uploading it to a social network # 20:09 rhiaro ... All this sharing information is also present on the desktop clients # 20:09 rhiaro ... communicates via rest api with the server to initate the sharing request with the server # 20:09 rhiaro shevski: if something is shared do they get a copy? what if they both change at the same time? # 20:09 rhiaro Karli: on the desktop and mobile side we do bi-directional syncing # 20:10 rhiaro ... does conflict detection and you might get a conflict file if necessary # 20:10 rhiaro ... but the federation is not synced, it's a live connection annbass joined the channel
# 20:10 rhiaro ... We have implemented our own api for the activity feed but we want to do the next version with AS2 # 20:11 rhiaro ... Means we will implement desktop and mobile clients for consuming as2 # 20:11 rhiaro cwebber2: we should talk about if... the challenging thing with the database that we talked about.. the upload media stuff we should talk about. We have some vague discussion fo that in AP but needs work # 20:11 rhiaro ... I'd be interested to see the direction and work together on that # 20:11 rhiaro Karli: Another thing from a strategic perspective.. a lot of people see owncloud as a dropbox replacement # 20:12 rhiaro ... But I think this will evolve into a social network # 20:12 rhiaro Karli: the biggest installation that we are involved with is for half a million for universities in German # 20:12 rhiaro ... But we just learnted that there's an installation in India with 1.1 million users # 20:13 rhiaro ... Scaling is actually quite easy based on web technologies Karli joined the channel
# 20:15 rhiaro shevski: I thought the status doc would be upated and we could just review it # 20:15 rhiaro ... but it hasn't. Maybe we need to go over what we're tryign to do with it and who is going to update what # 20:15 rhiaro shevski: The idea was to partly start thinking about what are the next steps to get to CR for various things, and what do we need for the implementationr eport # 20:15 rhiaro ... and what can we do in the time we have to grow adoption for any of these things hhalpin joined the channel
# 20:16 rhiaro ... Fulfilling process requirements and also the wider problem of getting more users and implementations? # 20:16 hhalpin Where's the links to existing implementations? # 20:17 rhiaro eprodrom: we have 2 things. One is documeting implementations, and one next steps nicolagreco joined the channel
# 20:17 rhiaro sandro: this is the link to all the other documents # 20:17 rhiaro ... trying to get peopel to focus on what happens next # 20:18 rhiaro eprodrom: I think us as chairs need it to see what to do to push things forward # 20:18 rhiaro sandro: we could just talk about this for as2 right now at least for a few minutes # 20:18 rhiaro ... I don't think we've wrapped up next steps for as2 # 20:19 rhiaro eprodrom: Let's take til 1630 to discuss listing implementations and maintaining the list from hereon # 20:19 rhiaro ... and from 1630 to 17-1730 discussing next steps for documents # 20:19 rhiaro tantek: I want to kill the document status page because I think it's useless and busy work # 20:19 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 20:20 hhalpin We should have a page that lists implemenations per spec # 20:20 hhalpin Given that we have soooo many specs right now # 20:20 rhiaro eprodrom: the purpose of this document status was leading up to this meeting, it's value goes down now we're at the meeting. We cna just talk about it # 20:20 hhalpin The rest of the material on the page is busywork # 20:20 hhalpin However, the list of implementations is super-important for CR exit # 20:20 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 20:20 rhiaro sandro: I find this useful to see status of documents, I don't mind where # 20:20 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 20:21 hhalpin (just to repeat what I said above) # 20:21 rhiaro eprodrom: let's take 10 minutes per draft and takl about next steps # 20:21 rhiaro ... For editors can say what they're doing, and people with experience of rec process can say what we're shooting for next # 20:22 aaronpk just added links to issues for webmention and micropub # 20:22 rhiaro sandro: the output of this conversaiton si not documented anywhere besides the minutes # 20:23 rhiaro eprodrom: Big next steps are test suite, conformance section, and closing recent issues # 20:23 rhiaro ... In december we were almost all closed but now we have more # 20:23 rhiaro ... But we are going to try to close those tomorrow morning # 20:24 rhiaro ... Hopefully we can close them quickly, most will have editor's recommendation for next steps # 20:24 rhiaro ... Unless there's strong debate we can probably move fast. Not that I'm discouraging debate. # 20:24 rhiaro ... At which point it's possible we could vote to transition to CR in this meeting # 20:25 rhiaro ... Then we would publish a new updated version based on the decisions that are made tomorrow morning # 20:25 rhiaro ... one last editorial pass, then have something ready to go to cr # 20:25 rhiaro ... If the group says we do x, implementors implement x, and we probably on't need another vote # 20:25 rhiaro ... Or we could do editorial and then a round of review # 20:25 rhiaro ... Or we say the editorial is implementing what we decided and we can go to CR # 20:25 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_, hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:25 rhiaro ... That might be a decision to make tomorrow # 20:26 Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom_, hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:26 Zakim sees eprodrom_, hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:26 rhiaro tantek: How many implementations do we have of current activitystreams drafts? # 20:26 rhiaro cwebber2: one in activipy and half in the guile one # 20:26 rhiaro eprodrom: I was just making a list on the activitystreams implementation page and I count 4.5 # 20:26 rhiaro ... java, javascript, activipy, validator which okay that's cheating, and.. # 20:27 rhiaro eprodrom: is it an implementation or an implementation tool? # 20:28 Zakim sees eprodrom_, hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:28 Zakim sees eprodrom_, hhalpin, sandro, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 20:28 eprodrom_ ack eprodrom_ # 20:28 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 20:29 rhiaro hhalpin: helpful to have a big page with all implementations # 20:29 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 20:29 rhiaro ... with implementations that are either conformant or planning to be # 20:29 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:29 eprodrom_ rhiaro: oh, now I feel like a jerk # 20:30 rhiaro sandro: As we get to having the validator on the test suite for something like as2 it would be nice to see the implementations look more like this (matrix with tests and validations), for each document does it pass it, and results # 20:31 rhiaro ... A list is nice early, but by the time we have a test suite we should have more detail about conformance # 20:31 rhiaro ... And then what's the process for getting peopel to give us results # 20:31 rhiaro eprodrom: for pumpio I could maybe take links for kinds of feeds on a pumpio site and link to each of those and say if they validate # 20:31 rhiaro ... these are the kinds of feeds that we generate # 20:32 rhiaro sandro: I guess actually what I want is depending on the feature granularity # 20:32 rhiaro ... is there a feed from that implementation that uses that feature # 20:32 rhiaro eprodrom: we need to move our implementation pages from we implement this to implementation reports # 20:32 rhiaro sandro: we could borrow something from other groups or roll our own # 20:32 rhiaro ... An action item on someone who's willing to do it? # 20:33 rhiaro tantek: until we have a test suite we don't need this. First step, make a test suite # 20:33 rhiaro ... no working group I know of has used a library to exit cr # 20:33 rhiaro ... not an implementation for any workign group I've been involved in # 20:33 Zakim sees shevski, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 20:34 rhiaro shevski: what are the formal requirements for w3c implementation report? # 20:34 rhiaro ... I'm interested in demonstrating genuine adoption # 20:34 rhiaro ... I don't think something should become a standard if only 3 people care about it # 20:34 rhiaro ... If we have 5 different things we need to start talking to peopel and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of peopel and companies using it # 20:34 Zakim sees shevski, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 20:35 Zakim sees shevski, hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:35 hhalpin I would suggest adding an estimate on the number of users per implementation. # 20:35 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro on the speaker queue # 20:35 rhiaro ... Stuff people can be interested in, like mooncake which thoughtworks built which displays activitystreams from varous sources, they have demos, good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like # 20:35 rhiaro ... so if people are looking at as2 and deciding, they can see if they want to use it # 20:35 cwebber2 hhalpin, did mooncake use the java library of AS2 or have its own # 20:35 hhalpin I think they re-coded it using Clojure # 20:36 rhiaro eprodrom: if we look at previous implementations for as2 that's definitely an outreach process and we do have a little bit of a psychological advantage to ahving 2.0, we can ask people when they're going to upgrade # 20:36 hhalpin So you *may* have another implementation there. # 20:36 tantek q+ to comment on we need to start talking to peopl e and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of people and companies using it # 20:36 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro, tantek on the speaker queue # 20:36 rhiaro ... and that might be a next step is to be reaching out # 20:36 rhiaro shevski: whose responsibility is it to do that? Editors for each draft? # 20:36 hhalpin That being said, I'm not sure if they have any users per se. There was supposed to be 3 pilots: Iceland, Finland, Spain - I think Finland is interested. # 20:36 rhiaro shevski: but for initial implementaton report? # 20:37 hhalpin Email Jaako Korhonon re Finland and Natalie from Thoughtworks via Clojure details, I've been removed by W3C/ERCIM from D-CENT for almost a year so not tracking :) # 20:37 Zakim sees hhalpin, sandro, tantek on the speaker queue # 20:37 rhiaro eprodrom: definitely a snowball effect of seeing implementations listed bengo joined the channel
# 20:38 rhiaro hhalpin: think it would be useful.. we don't test how many users something has.. assume it has users, not ask how many. That being said, users are good. Even though it's not formally part of the process should be something the wg takes into account # 20:38 rhiaro ... So eg. per library list code bases that use it # 20:38 rhiaro ... Keep track of how many users each implementation has # 20:38 rhiaro ... Would help for people looking in from outside to see what the state of play is # 20:39 rhiaro sandro: Looking at two other implementation reports. I don't think we shoudl worry about w3c, but what the users want # 20:39 hhalpin Yes, but caniuse doesn't measure "users" :) # 20:39 hhalpin We assume all these browsers have users. # 20:39 hhalpin Its harder in this case # 20:39 rhiaro ... Tells users what they can use to get to use as2 # 20:39 rhiaro ... if it's good enough for users it's good enough for w3c # 20:39 hhalpin Still, adding guess user numbers helps # 20:39 rhiaro ... that includes covering extensions in theory, that's where it really starts to pay off # 20:40 Zakim tantek, you wanted to comment on we need to start talking to peopl e and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of people and companies using it # 20:40 rhiaro ... how many consumers consume this extension so should I produce it # 20:40 hhalpin So, in theory in some of the SemWeb space (GRDDL comes to mind) I've seen stuff with users numbering in less than a dozen go to Rec, but I think W3C is discouraging that kind of thing. # 20:40 rhiaro tantek: I agree that listing things that are accesible to users is a good thing # 20:40 rhiaro ... Good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like, as shevski said # 20:41 rhiaro ... Before we ask anyone outside this WG to implement something, I would like to see implementations by people in this wg # 20:41 hhalpin Typically a WG converges, then we do a call for implementations. Its a bit odd to do a call for implementation without some convergence! # 20:41 rhiaro ... For each draft, at least one. I think we're close to that # 20:41 rhiaro ... I would hope we have an implementation from the group we can point to # 20:41 rhiaro sandro: I would hope the editors would have some implementation # 20:42 rhiaro shevski: so people can see 'that is the kind of thing I want in my app, I will use this spec' # 20:43 rhiaro eprodrom: implementation and advocacy is going to become a very big issue before we go to cr # 20:44 rhiaro ... right now we're collecting lists, next step is to collect test results as well as outreach # 20:44 rhiaro ... may be something we should start in the next few weeks # 20:44 rhiaro tantek: what do we need to take things to CR, then once we're in CR what do we need to do to exit? # 20:44 rhiaro ... A test report is not required to enter CR # 20:44 rhiaro ... For implementations,t hat's up to the wg to decide # 20:45 rhiaro ... how much implementation verification do we want internally before we are comfortable taking something to cr # 20:45 rhiaro ... we have a few implementations including a validator that anyone can try. We can make some claim like the validator implements 90% of AS2 # 20:45 rhiaro ... Then we can tell people that when we enter CR, to help encourage more # 20:45 rhiaro ... Hopefully an example for those spec to follow # 20:46 rhiaro ... If we have implementations from editors, 90%, 50% of the spec, that is useful to include as part of going to CR # 20:47 bengo I can hear sounds but not really Amy # 20:49 rhiaro <rhiaro> Needs catching up with current state of specs it talks about # 20:49 rhiaro eprodrom: what's our intention with publication? # 20:49 rhiaro sandro: remaining flexible depending on contents # 20:50 rhiaro eprodrom: we're shooting for another version in early april and will iterate on a regular basis over the coming months # 20:50 rhiaro aaronpk: A few more issues that I wasn't able to close myself, would like to go through those tomorrow # 20:51 rhiaro ... With those resolved I feel like things are stable enough that there are no major blocking issues and plenty of implementations.. # 20:51 rhiaro aaronpk: there's a list on the document. dozens? There are two roles, sending and receiving. I believe it's dozens of each # 20:51 rhiaro ... enough where I feel like things are working fine # 20:51 rhiaro ... The next thing I want to do is work on a test suite so there are tools for peopel to test their implementations on both sides # 20:52 rhiaro sandro: the small utitlities haven' treally poked the edge cases right? # 20:52 rhiaro aaronpk: some test for xss for example, so they'll send you a webmention with a script hyou should be filtering out. kind of adjacent to the spec itself as the spec doesn't say you have to show a comment on a post # 20:53 rhiaro tantek: do you have a privacy and security section? # 20:53 rhiaro tantek: could expand to answer the privacy and security questionnaire from the TAG # 20:53 rhiaro ... AB and TAG are gathering experience with it, but if you're not sure what to say about security and privacy this is one way of expanding # 20:54 rhiaro dmitriz: From what I remember from AS2 and AP specs the security and privacy ocnsiderations sections used language with 'must provide x level of privacy' and so on: how is that testable? # 20:55 rhiaro tantek: how that plays into conformance requirements is a separate qusetion # 20:55 rhiaro ... very difficult to test whether someone has considered something # 20:55 rhiaro ... there are ways, but they're not part of w3c test suite or well understood, basically research projects, maybe in the future # 20:55 rhiaro ... obvious things like breaks same origin policiy we can note that # 20:56 rhiaro ... Point on social web protocols.. seems like we're not going to converge... If we don't converge and we have this document saying there are 3 things # 20:56 rhiaro ... And if someone has the spare time to shim between these formats # 20:56 rhiaro ... if such a shim existed that would make SWP more useful # 20:56 rhiaro <rhiaro> some parts are easy to shim, some overlap completely, some not # 20:57 rhiaro Karli: would be desireable to have an overlap # 20:57 rhiaro ... instead of trying to solve it like a failed attempt with a library # 20:57 rhiaro eprodrom: there are some formulations we could use to define it. It's an interesting question but I want to bring us back to document status # 20:57 rhiaro aaronpk: Beyond testing, I would like to know what is then expected of me as the editor or us as the group to move forward # 20:58 rhiaro ... Reading the w3c process documents is overwhelming, so what is the human readable version of the next step? # 20:58 hhalpin Note that Test the Web Forward stuff doesn't apply here # 20:58 rhiaro ... Assuming we close issues and build a test suite, what's left? # 20:58 hhalpin But basically, the Process Doc is pretty easily explained and its legal to publish different documents. # 20:58 rhiaro eprodrom: then we have the decision of whether we're going to publish one, two or some convergence # 20:58 hhalpin As long as they can all fulfill CR # 20:58 hhalpin That being said, it would obviously be more desirable to have a convergence # 20:58 rhiaro ... We resolved to move them all forward with no dependencies # 20:59 rhiaro tantek: we should ask the same things as as2 of every other draft nicolagreco joined the channel
# 20:59 rhiaro ... if it applies to every spec can we put this list somewhere? # 21:02 rhiaro sandro: webmention is simple enough we can say 2 complete senders and 2 complete receivers # 21:02 rhiaro sandro: exit criteria is 2 implementations of each feature Karli joined the channel
# 21:03 rhiaro ... sandro said sending and receiving are features, but you said features break downmore # 21:04 rhiaro ... existing implementations are various overlapping subsets # 21:04 rhiaro cwebber2: I dont' know if we need to leave owen on there, should we remove him because he's not a current editor? # 21:05 rhiaro ... In terms of things that are next, we have a list of actionable bugs # 21:06 rhiaro ... So we can test the federation stuff works the way that we expect it to # 21:06 rhiaro ... Maybe somebody in the pumpio community will jump on it # 21:07 rhiaro ... Bugs, then implementations, then the whole conversation about conformance # 21:07 eprodrom_ "1.1.0 initial AS2 feed (beta)" # 21:07 rhiaro ... As for worrying about the test suite, I'd like to do that after the implementations are at a certain stage, so we know what we're testing # 21:08 rhiaro eprodrom: work on bugs, do a new version, get review, then start talking about test suite? # 21:08 rhiaro cwebber2: I'd like to see implementations before test suite # 21:08 rhiaro ... I don't think test driven makes sense for standards, when you don't know what you're pushing forward # 21:09 KevinMarks surely you will write tests as you write implementations; the question is if you can generalize them # 21:09 cwebber2 KevinMarks, quite probably, you probably heard what I just said :) # 21:10 rhiaro cwebber2: having a mniinmal implementation that includes tests would be good # 21:13 rhiaro ... And several combinations of things in micropub spec, multiple kinds of server and client implementations # 21:13 rhiaro ... A server or a client does not have to support all features, so there are many different kinds of valid implementations # 21:13 rhiaro ... Would like to publish another update of this before asking for it to go to cr # 21:14 rhiaro cwebber2: I have to be at the airport at like 1530 but otherwise.. # 21:14 rhiaro tantek: Also for all, identify what you consider at risk # 21:14 rhiaro ... Once you have figured out what the features are, among that set of features decide if there are any that you consider at risk # 21:14 rhiaro ... If you think it's too new or you're not confident in it, label any of them (preferably not all) at risk and let the wg know # 21:15 rhiaro ... people in wg, if you object to a feature file issues or ask for it to be put at risk. Or if you think a feature is essential you can argue against putting at risk # 21:15 rhiaro ... Editors can say what you consider at risk and why snarfed and jasnell joined the channel
# 21:16 rhiaro ... The effect on the process is that if you get to the end of the cr period you can drop at risk features without having to publish another draft # 21:17 Arnaud I agree with Tantek, At Risk is a powerful mechanism but I would invite anyone to make suggestions/requests # 21:18 rhiaro tantek: when can we expect a new draft of micropub? # 21:18 rhiaro aaronpk: both of them by april 8th at the latest, hopefully earlier # 21:18 Arnaud I think we always agreed on that, the difference was that tantek wanted to tag everything as at risk, which I said was excessive # 21:18 rhiaro tantek: if you dont' meet all requirements for cr, you can still publish another wd immediately # 21:19 rhiaro aaronpk: in that case I will propose to publish a new draft on the 29 shevski joined the channel
# 21:20 rhiaro tantek: I have had issues finding the time to convert that into the proper format to publish so I need help # 21:20 rhiaro ... I don't have a godo workflow for editing that draft on the wiki then turning that into a form that I can publish on w3c # 21:21 rhiaro tantek: if you use respec it expects a certain syntax # 21:21 rhiaro ... so either I have to manuall convert it every time, or convert it once and keep it in sync, or give up on the wiki and just use github # 21:21 rhiaro tantek: I was hoping I could pipe the wiki page into the publication process and have it work # 21:22 rhiaro hhaplin: when people have edited specs in wikis in the past... it's possible.. # 21:22 rhiaro ... you just have to put effort in to convert, but it's a lot of work # 21:23 rhiaro tantek: I could iterate on issues and close them next # 21:23 rhiaro ... would be pgoress before trying to do conversion # 21:23 rhiaro ... you want a coeditor, or general participation in wiki editing? # 21:24 rhiaro tantek: looking for suggestions in conversion process # 21:24 rhiaro ... wiki is good for iterating, but not for publishing # 21:24 rhiaro ... If I have to convert to respec in github then fine, but I'm looking for suggestions # 21:25 rhiaro ... If not, we are at the end of our agenda. Pretty impressed. # 21:25 rhiaro tantek: worth spending a couple of minutes on bringing up other docs we had as editors drafts # 21:27 rhiaro ... Not sure what happened to it. I think we have enough work, so we drop this as a work item? # 21:28 rhiaro ... Not to say we ban it, but fo rnow we admit that nobody is actively working on it # 21:28 rhiaro ... If someone wants to bring it back they can do that in the future # 21:28 rhiaro ... But for now we can move it from the list of drafts # 21:28 rhiaro ... jasnell is not here so I want to give him a week to pipe up # 21:28 rhiaro cwebber2: we should put it on the table and mail the list # 21:28 rhiaro ben_thatmust: we can resolve to remove it and bring up objections in the next telecon # 21:29 tantek PROPOSED: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice # 21:31 tantek RESOLVED: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice # 21:31 rhiaro ben_thatmust: I have not had much time due to personal small people reasons to work on this # 21:32 rhiaro ... I certainly would like to see something of this go to a note, because I think it's been useful and it's standardising several implementations that are using json formats of microformats # 21:32 rhiaro ... but I don't have the time to push that toward a rec # 21:33 rhiaro aaronpk: I have found it useful for dealing with apis and services that use micropub and webmention, it sort of sits in th emiddle of everything and is used by both of thise, but I don't need to normatively refernece it as a spec, but ti has been useful in building implementations # 21:33 rhiaro ... that's how I have some iterations of the document that I have been taling to ben about but haven't been updated or anything # 21:33 rhiaro tantek: what do you need to do as editor to produce a working draft towards a note? # 21:34 rhiaro ... it's difficult because I'm definining the spec without the vocabulary. Trying to say was written with microformats in mind but you could apply any vocab to it # 21:34 rhiaro aaronpk: the more useful parts I"ve found are tied to the vocabulary # 21:34 rhiaro ... Using as this is the one way to represent a blog post or an author with the microformats vocabulary # 21:35 rhiaro tantek: if you want to take it to note we can make this intention clear up front # 21:36 rhiaro ... When do you think it will be in good enough shape to publish as a non rec track draft # 21:36 rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: I need some time to work on it # 21:36 eprodrom_ sandro: So, there's a WordPress plugin that implements AS2 # 21:37 rhiaro eprodrom: time to wrap up. Any other agenda items that we need to address before the end of the day? # 21:39 rhiaro ... tomorrow afternoon, can go through issues that editors want to bring to the group # 21:39 rhiaro aaronpk: I do have issues on wm and mp that I would like to discuss # 21:44 bengo night yall enjoy dinner nicolagreco joined the channel
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97728&oldid=97727
eprodrom hi all
ben_thatmustbeme waves
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-social-irc
trackbot Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, this meeting spans midnight'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
aaronpk micropub conformance section: http://micropub.net/draft/#conformance
tsyesika https://as2.rocks/validate?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftsyesika.se%2Ffeed AS2 document on the web :)
rhiaro My photo albums: https://as2.rocks/validate?url=http://img.amy.gy/files/food/food.json
tantek There is the W3C-wide document on use of GitHub: https://www.w3.org/wiki/GitHub
KevinMarks https://talky.io/socialweb is empty - are you doing demos somewhere else I can see?
sandro dinner is 6:15 http://www.opentable.com/atasca