#social 2016-04-19

2016-04-19 UTC
jasnell, jaywink, barnabywalters, Karli, tantek and eprodrom joined the channel
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-19]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98098&oldid=98083
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tantek good morning #social! see you in ~47 minutes :)
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-19]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98099&oldid=98098
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rhiaro 's internet just went down, following irc over 2g in the meantime
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rhiaro ... Laggy mclag
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eprodrom present+
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sandro trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/19-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot
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sandro present+
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 19 April 2016
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Arnaud present+
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annbass present+
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eprodrom present+
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bengo present+
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cwebber2 dialing in, sorry!
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aaronpk present+
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eprodrom anyone can scribe?
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KevinMarks present+
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bengo I will scribe
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eprodrom scribe: bengo
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cwebber2 present+ cwebber
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annbass *whoops .. just discovered I was on mute ..
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annbass * (was volunteering)
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-12-minutes
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bengo eprodrom: Let's get started. First agenda item is approval of minutes from last week
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eprodrom +1
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aaronpk +1
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Karli + 1
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KevinMarks +1
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bengo +1
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annbass +1
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cwebber2 +1
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eprodrom PROPOSAL: approve minutes of 12 Apr 2016
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 12 Apr 2016
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bengo eprodrom: Great. That's all for administrative items, right?
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bengo eprodrom: May be important to note we're 6 weeks away from Portland F2F. Probably time to make travel plans
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bengo s/6/8
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bengo eprodrom: next up - Document Status
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/DocumentStatus
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bengo eprodrom: Tried to resolve all issues [for AS2] Working Draft but some issues were too complex to resolve
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eprodrom http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/
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bengo eprodrom: There is a new Editor's Draft that covers quite a few issues, but not all
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
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bengo eprodrom: I'll dig through remaining issues 1 by 1
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bengo eprodrom: #297 - Still ahven't resolved, whether we'll drop questions or add a 'Cosed' tag. Need tow ork through with jasnell
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/296
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bengo eprodrom: 296 - Unfortunately, only 50/170 examples have 'name', even thugh it's SHOULD.
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Loqi Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-12-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98100&oldid=98052
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annbass s/Cosed' tag. Need tow ork/'closed' tag. Need to work/
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bengo eprodrom: One way to resolve is have spec be more specific about which object types SHOULD have name. Alternatively, add .name to all examples. Discussing with jasnell
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annbass s/ahven't/haven't/
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/292
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bengo eprodrom: #292 - Think we have resolution on this one. Just haven't added it yet.
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bengo eprodrom: 289 - Relationship object. I have reviewed this, and there are some use cases for social networking that we would not be able to represent without this object. So I think we need to remove it in a way that accomodates those use cases, or keep it for now.
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eprodrom https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/249
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bengo eprodrom: 249 - There are some activity types with properties that are optional that are not explained in the examples. The prob is there are half a dozen and I need to get them updated in all representations, not just JSON, RDFa and the rest too.
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bengo eprodrom: But there has been good progress this week on exit criteria, conformance, etc. Just want to make sure we do the right thing on these last issues
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bengo eprodrom: So do we go to WD as it stands? Or take another week to resolve the remaining issues
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 I'm ok with going to WD but have no strong opinions
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tantek I'd say better to publish a WD sooner
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sandro (neutral)
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annbass ditto
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tantek I like the progress that's been made and think the spec benefits from that
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tantek present+
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bengo eprodrom: For my purposes, I'd prefer taking another week to finalize issues before WD
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek no objections
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annbass sounds fine
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bengo eprodrom: How to handle all the types of examples in AS2 spec. It is burdensome to keep them all up to date.
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tantek which languages?
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tantek JSON vs JSONLD?
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bengo eprodrom: Wondering if there is a way to edit just JSON and have it render to the other formats
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tantek can we ask for volunteers for help with the others?
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bengo eprodrom: microdata, RDFa, turtle are onerous
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bengo eprodrom: Gonna hold off on worrying for now. If anyone can take on editing those dialects, that would be big help.
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annbass did jasnell do all those in the beginning?
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annbass (not that I'm sugg he be the updater)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme++ for help with updating the microformats versions of the examples
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 140 karma
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bengo annbass: I just thought, if he were the one who created it, he may have a technique for all the transforms
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eprodrom AS2 questions?
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bengo eprodrom: Next up. Webmention
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bengo eprodrom: but first. Any updates on documents other than that?
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eprodrom Other document status updates?
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KevinMarks doing it though code transforms is a good idea, as it helps clarify generality
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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annbass q+
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Zakim sees annbass on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: Hello. We've been working through issues on ActivityPub
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aaronpk q+ for brief micropub update
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/32
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bengo cwebber2: We've decided to allow submitting objects not-wrapped in Activity, and processor would treat as Create
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bengo cwebber2: One area of debate: putting audience targeting on that object (not activity). Jessica thought it would be weird to have audience target on object only in client-to-server.
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tantek looks
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: Instead we could put no audience targeting on the object, and server would assume a default (e.g. public + followers)
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eprodrom ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: A huge part of AS2 is having that access control. All of the object types in AS2 support audience targeting. So it seems straightforward to allow it. Dropping them seems like step backwards to me
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bengo cwebber2: Got it. That was slightly my preference too but wanted group feedback.
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tantek q+ to ask about audience targetting being a distinguishing feature
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk, tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: Updated draft maybe coming in next week
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask about audience targetting being a distinguishing feature
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 to respond
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bengo tantek: We had discussion in the past whether we should distinguish for developers when to use each spec. Access control is a key feature for both AS2 and ActivityPub. Maybe we can call that out explicitly.
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eprodrom rhiaro: are you on the call?
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bengo eprodrom: rhiaro has that come up before?
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eprodrom ack cwebber
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Zakim sees annbass, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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bengo cwebber2: Audience Targeting is a key feature of ActivityPub, but with AS2 it's supported feature, not implied/core. You can think about using activitystreams in just a published feed like Atom (without targeting).
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bengo eprodrom: This is a good issue to bring up and write about in "Social Protocols"
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eprodrom ack annbass
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bengo annbass: I have on paper a bunch of edits (logic/English correctness). I think they would be best for me to send via snailmail to jasnell but couldn't get address. eprodrom can I send to you?
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bengo eprodrom: yes
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eprodrom ack aaronpk
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Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to discuss brief micropub update
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 I think so too
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bengo aaronpk: Micropub status
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aaronpk http://micropub.net/draft/#changes-from-01-march-2016-fpwd-to-this-version
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bengo aaronpk: There have been a few changes since latest WD on March 1. Couple of simplifications of syntax. Ultimately minor.
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annbass s/bunch of edits /bunch of edits for Activity Streams 2.0 WD dated 15 Dec 2015 /
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bengo aaronpk: Also been working on parallel update that is unpublished. It takes into account f2f discussion on converting JSON syntax to ActivityPub style. In the meantime, someone came along and implemented the ED in node.js Supports Create Update Delete.
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bengo aaronpk: So I tried to get feedback on spec, and he said he prefers existing syntax to new one. And there were some benefits of old one that couldn't be accomodated in new syntax.
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aaronpk http://micropub.net/draft/#update
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bengo aaronpk: That leaves us still looking for more implementations and more feedback.
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tantek q+ to ask how many implementations of the ED again?
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bengo eprodrom: Can other group members help?
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bengo aaronpk: Take a look at the alternate version.
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bengo sandro: Should we link from current ED to alternative and ask for feedback?
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bengo aaronpk: idk
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tantek s/idk/I don't know
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bengo aaronpk: The bulk of the Content changes in this alternative version. Most obvious in 'Update' section
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aaronpk http://micropub.net/draft/#update http://micropub.net/draft/socialpub/#update
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bengo aaronpk: Something else that came from feedback. I was leaning toward everything except create requiring JSON format. But the implementor said it wasn't too hard to also support formencoded, since the key/value structure is so similar
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo eprodrom: What would next steps be?
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bengo aaronpk: I'm not sure. Easiest thing for me is make no changes.
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bengo eprodrom: Open an issue on GitHub to invite discussion? I don't want you to get stuck on this without a clear transition. If you're willing to make a decision, group will respect that.
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KevinMarks do other existing implementations support both formencoded and json, or just formencoded?
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KevinMarks document support?
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bengo aaronpk: There's an existing issue for it
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bengo eprodrom: Let's give it a week for participants to look it over
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bengo aaronpk: works for me. After call, I'll update the issue to document this
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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bengo ?
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask how many implementations of the ED again?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo tantek: Is this the second implementation of micropub ED? or WD?
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bengo aaronpk: There are several implementations of creating posts linked from spec. In many languages. For updating/deleting, there are now two. This was second, and it was based on Mar 1 WD.
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bengo tantek: Was the first implementation your own server?
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bengo aaronpk: Yes
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bengo tantek: So this is first external feedback. Can we see if the two versions interoperate.
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bengo aaronpk: I want to do a validator for micropub, but it's on TODO list for now. Could test interop be using against each other. I'll add that to my list. Using this new implementation to edit posts on my site and in theory they should interoperate
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eprodrom TOPIC: PDX F2F logistics
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bengo aaronpk: Meeting is in a couple months. ESRI was going to host event but doesn't make sense anymore
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sandro !! aaronpk leaving ESRI
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bengo aaronpk: I found a local company that can host. Close to old location so shouldn't require hotel changes
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bengo aaronpk: They can provide coffee, snacks, meeting room. However, they don't have room for catered lunch. So I was planning on lunch reservations and nearby restaurants
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bengo aaronpk: I would appreciate if someone could help sponsor the lunches.
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Arnaud let everyone pay their own lunch
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Arnaud we did that in Paris
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annbass no need for you to pay, aaronpk
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bengo aaronpk: If that's the best option, I'll make sure I can find a place that can split check. Sound ok?
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cwebber2 sounds good
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bengo tantek: Is this close to food trucks? Good option for separate paying.
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bengo aaronpk: Yeah there are many food carts within five blocks
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bengo aaronpk: Only downside is fragmented lunch discussion time, but we could bring food back to F2F.
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bengo +1 to outside
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annbass I agree with Tantek.... get food, bring it back to same place ..
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sandro aaronpk, can you update https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07 with the new location....?
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aaronpk sandro, will do. didn't want to do it before the call for obvious reasons ;)
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eprodrom Thumbs up for getting out
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tantek +1 to food carts both days
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bengo aaronpk: Should we do food carts bothd ays and no reservation?
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bengo IMO yes
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cwebber2 food carts!
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tantek and be outside both days
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annbass sounds great .. pending weather
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bengo decentralized food choices
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annbass (likely will be fine weather)
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bengo aaronpk: I'll update the wiki page
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bengo tantek: What about inviting local developers? Does new location make this more possible?
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bengo aaronpk: There isn't enough room to have more people. We'd have to hang out at the parks.
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bengo aaronpk: could be challenging. Lunch downtown is popular.
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bengo tantek: Do you think it would appear to local developers?
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tantek s/appear/appeal
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bengo aaronpk: I'm not sure many would take us up on it. So I'm happy to not bother with the offer.
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tantek up to you aaronpk - trust your judgment
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bengo eprodrom: We could do happy hour or dinner out with devs.
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tantek +1 eprodrom
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bengo aaronpk: That would be easier
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tantek maybe after the first day?
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eprodrom social happy hour
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aaronpk +1 to happy hour
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bengo eprodrom: Let's talk webmention
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bengo aaronpk: I've had good feedback from webmention.rocks. 21 tests for endpoint discovery.
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bengo aaronpk: 1 test for update portion of webmention spec.
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bengo aaronpk: Results have been promising. Most people passed endpoint discovery test, there are 2 or 3 that are tricky because of Link tag/header edge cases.
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bengo aaronpk: Out of all 21, 17 different people were able to successfully reply to at least one. Of those, almost all use different implementations. ~13 distinct implementations.
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tantek between 13 and 15?!? (!!!) wow
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eprodrom Great news on that
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bengo aaronpk: For update test, it was only released Saturday. Looks like ~4 implementations passed though.
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bengo aaronpk: I'm going to work more on update and counting results.
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tantek what about delete tests?
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bengo eprodrom: Next steps?
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bengo aaronpk: Write more tests to cover rest of spec. More formally gather results and report on them.
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo aaronpk: Still have some issues
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bengo aaronpk: One issue, waiting on IANA rel registry updates
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tantek sandro, do we have an issue category for "Waiting on external org?" :P ;)
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bengo aaronpk: I resolved many issues. Though some are 'waiting for commenter' since original commenter/reporter hasn't acked
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bengo aaronpk: My question is "What is left before this can be CR"?
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bengo eprodrom: As we did with AS2, we have to assess exit criteria for Webmention. And have a vote when we take to CR.
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bengo aaronpk: Do exit criteria have to be in before CR or during/after?
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bengo sandro: before
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tantek is there any value in publishing current ED as is as a WD?
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bengo aaronpk: So I'll work on that this week and maybe propose CR next week
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tantek with all the issues resolved?
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aaronpk oh yes thanks tantek
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tantek (just as I asked for AS2)
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bengo aaronpk: I would like to propose publishing a new WD based on current ED
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aaronpk http://webmention.net/draft/#changes-from-29-march-2016-wd-to-this-version
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bengo tantek: Looking at the changes, it looks like they're significant enough to publish WD ASAP, given e.g. CSRF improvements
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
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aaronpk +1
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tantek +1
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bengo +1
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber2 +1
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KevinMarks +1
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annbass +1
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sandro +1
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annbass great job, aaronpk!
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eprodrom RESOLVED: Publish new working draft of Webmention based on 15 April 2016 editor's draft
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bengo aaronpk: I'll create a github issue for exit criteria on Webmention
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annbass thanks for scribing, bengo .. good job! ditto on chairing, Evan
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eprodrom that's all, folks
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bengo Do I need to do anything to end scribing?
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annbass yes
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annbass um .. trackbot, end meeting
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annbass trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been sandro, Arnaud, annbass, eprodrom, bengo, aaronpk, KevinMarks, cwebber, 1, tantek
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/19-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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tantek bengo++ for taking minutes!!! Thanks bengo
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Loqi bengo has 12 karma
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annbass and then, bengo ... if you can transform the minutes to from raw irc, to be posted in wiki
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annbass do you know how to do that?
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bengo umm no. I can copy paste out of my IRC client? Looking for export function now
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annbass just a sec .. rhiaro has a transform tool ... I'm just looking for the link
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bengo ok I'm running to a meeting but will keep an eye here for that tool
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wilkie http://pandoc.amy.gy/
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wilkie bengo++
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Loqi bengo has 13 karma
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annbass try this: http://pandoc.amy.gy/
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annbass oh .. now I see you are going to meeting .. I'll do it for you
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tantek and I think that can operate on the RRSAgent IRC logs right?
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tantek which should already be online?
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annbass yes
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tantek yes: https://www.w3.org/2016/04/19-social-minutes.html
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tantek thanks much annbass !!
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annbass no worries; small contribution :-)
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tantek annbass: every little bit helps :)
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annbass that's the hope
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annbass I'll brb .. and will finish this then
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bengo Just did this maybe it is close to right
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-19-minutes
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Loqi Bgoering made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-19-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98101&oldid=0
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98102&oldid=98051
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annbass loqi! tell bengo -- minutes look great! (took me longer to get back than I expected; neighbors were locked out of their house)
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annbass rats; looks like I forgot the loqi tell syntax
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aaronpk "!tell bengo stuff"
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aaronpk (without quoteS)
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annbass oh thanks; was just looking it up
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annbass !tell bengo the minutes look great; sorry, took me longer to get back than expected
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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annbass !tell aaronpk he's swell ;-)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk :P
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Loqi aaron: annbass left you a message 17 seconds ago: he's swell ;-) http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2016-04-19/line/1461092031971
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annbass haha
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aaronpk thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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tantek greetings #social - I've created the stub Agenda for next week's telcon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-26
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tantek please add individual discussion items to the section named as such: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-26#Discussion_Items
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tantek one change I made was to move the boilerplate "Document Status" to its own section AFTER our explicit (human added per call) "Discussion Items" section
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-26#Tracking_Document_Status
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tantek I believe this is more in spirit with our decision to cover discussion items in the order they are added, rather than having different "sections" to add agenda items to
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tantek Also made sense to put Tracking Document Status adjacent (but before) Tracking of Actions and Issues
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tantek since it is a similar explicit Tracking of "check things" that the chairs do regularly
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aaronpk makes sense having it after the specific discussion items, as a way to catch things that didn't have explicit agenda items
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-04-26]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98103&oldid=0
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98104&oldid=98102
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aaronpk just updated the f2f page with the new location, and added transportation info from the airport https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07#Transportation
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tantek thanks aaronpk ! do you have suggested hotels near the venue?
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aaronpk yeah I can add a few
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98105&oldid=98104
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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tantek aaronpk do you remember where the photos ended up from the March MIT f2f? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16
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aaronpk i think i didn't post them yet! just saw them on my camera when i was looking up indiewebcamp photos
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tantek ah ok cool
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tantek when you post them could you put one on that page like https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01
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tantek and then update the main page photo too? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg
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aaronpk sure
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Loqi Aaronpk made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98107&oldid=98105
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98108&oldid=98044
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aaronpk and updated with hotel info: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07#Hotels
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aaronpk I also made a map with a bunch of relevant locations: https://goo.gl/72luEI (also linked from the meeting page)
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98109&oldid=98107
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aaronpk do we have a page that lists a summary of the specs we're working on along with a description of them?
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tantek Document Status
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aaronpk there's no description there
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tantek home page?
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tantek why do you need description?
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aaronpk to send to someone not in the group, to let them know what the group is doing
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aaronpk specifically the hosts of the f2f
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tantek group home page is probably best for that
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tantek and if it's not, we should improve the home page accordingly
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aaronpk it's kind of overwhelming
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aaronpk the whole "Documentation" section can probably be moved somewhere else. I don't think we've used that section in ages
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tantek happy to accept suggestions for things to drop or move to other pages!
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tantek forgot about that section
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aaronpk I don't really understand what the "Process" section is for either, it kind of looks like a timeline, kind of looks like a list of specs, not sure how it relates
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aaronpk the telcon info isn't necessary on the home page, could probably be moved to its own page. i didn't even realize it was on there, i always look at the current agenda page for the call-in number.
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tantek just looked at Documentation. most of that should be moved to a /Socialwg/research page - it's background for work that we're doing
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aaronpk i suspect a lot of it is already on our research pages
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tantek no it's a research index
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tantek that's the point
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tantek the red links in #Documentation should just be deleted
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aaronpk ah yeah cause we had specific pages for each api and such
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tantek some stuff like the Use Cases and Inputs Into SocialWG should be separated out
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tantek Process is probably important to keep on the home page since it
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tantek it's a "how we work" top level thing, and the "sched" is linked from the Charter
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tantek Related Organizations could be moved to a subpage
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tantek Invited Expert Application and FAQ could also be moved to subpages
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aaronpk i have too much on my list for today to do that right now
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tantek no problem
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tantek if anyone is available to help with Social Web WG home page wiki cleanup/edits, please see above ^^^ and hopefully help out with a few (or even one) of those items
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tantek I just updated the Process section to reflect current state
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tantek goes to capture that itself
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98110&oldid=98108
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tantek thanks for pointing out the problem (and goal) aaronpk
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tantek captured here along with the above ideas for improvement
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Home_Page_To_Do
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=98111&oldid=98110
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