#social 2016-04-26

2016-04-26 UTC
KevinMarks and jasnell joined the channel
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tantek
huh, looks like chat topics were reset again
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tantek
is attempting to dial in
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Arnaud
webex is acting up for me
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bengo
present+
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Loqi
bengo: annbass left you a message on 4/19 at 11:53am: the minutes look great; sorry, took me longer to get back than expected http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2016-04-19/line/1461092000485
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bengo
working for aaronpk and I
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cwebber2
present+
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Arnaud
present+
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tantek
present+
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tantek
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 26 April 2016
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aaronpk
present+
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Arnaud
present+
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eprodrom
present+
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eprodrom
present+
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tantek
still looking for a scribe
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bengo
I'll scribe
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tantek
scribe: bengo
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tsyesika
present+
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bengo
tantek: First agenda items is last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-04-19-minutes
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eprodrom
Chair is missing
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Arnaud
just fix it
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tantek
chair: Tantek
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eprodrom
+1
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bengo
PROPOSAL: approve minutes of 19 Apr 2016
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bengo
+1
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, Arnaud, eprodrom, tsyesika
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, bengo, tantek, KevinMarks, jaywink, jasnell, manuel, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot, cwebber2, rrika, aaronpk, raucao, rhiaro,
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Zakim
... oshepherd, ben_thatmustbeme, jet, tsyesika, bigbluehat, bret, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, Loqi, bitbear
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tantek
present+ bengo
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cwebber2
I'm on the call
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manuel
HI!
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manuel
hi!
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tantek
present+ cwebber2
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tantek
hello manuel - I don't recognize you, are you a member of the Social Web Working Group?
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manuel
not really
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tantek
manuel, you have found us in the middle of our weekly telcon, perhaps you could wait til 11:00 to chat here?
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manuel
I'm working with GNU social developing plugins and I'm interested on federation and social web
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manuel
ok!
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tantek
thank you manuel
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bengo
tantek: Next up is Webmention CR Exit Criteria
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KevinMarks
I'm only in irc today
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bengo
aaronpk: Not sure if everyone got a chance to look at this after I sent email the other day
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bengo
aaronpk: I'd like to incorporate these additions into WD if everyone thinks they're reasonable
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eprodrom
aaronpk: Each feature may be implemented by a different set of products, there is no requirement that all features be implemented by a single product
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eprodrom
That comma should be a period
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo
eprodrom: One of the points for an Implementation is available as downloadable software. Is that a normal requirement?
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bengo
aaronpk: I copied from HTML and left out the part that allows for purely private implementations. That's the only thing here that might be surprising. I feel like it's an intentionally high bar to set for webmention, which is not a bad thing.
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bengo
aaronpk: I could be swayed on that
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, Arnaud, eprodrom, tsyesika, bengo, cwebber2
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, bengo, tantek, KevinMarks, jaywink, jasnell, manuel, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot, cwebber2, rrika, aaronpk, raucao, rhiaro,
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Zakim
... oshepherd, ben_thatmustbeme, jet, tsyesika, bigbluehat, bret, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, Loqi, bitbear
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tantek
sandro are you on the call?
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bengo
eprodrom: It seems like it would be hard to get to CR with just two private implementations, so I'm not really worried about it
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bengo
eprodrom: I think it's fine. I wouldn't change it.
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cwebber2
it looks fine to me
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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KevinMarks
implementations for the sake of CR you mean? presumably interop with closed code is still good
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bengo
eprodrom: Did a new webmention WG go out last week?
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bengo
aaronpk: Yes I published a new draft on, I believe, last Wednesday
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KevinMarks
s/WG/WD/
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bengo
aaronpk: Not CR language. Just current state of draft at end of last week's call
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eprodrom
Should we vote on it?
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bengo
"is suitable for a person to use as his/her primary implementation on a website" - Is this a requirement?
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bengo
Unclear if "Implementation" bullets are AND or OR
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bengo
aaronpk: I saw this language elsewhere. It has to be 'suitable' but not necessarily used. To encourage production quality
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bengo
alright
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bengo
aaronpk: I can make it explicit. They're intended to be ANDs.
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tantek
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, Arnaud, eprodrom, tsyesika, bengo, cwebber2
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Zakim
... oshepherd, ben_thatmustbeme, jet, tsyesika, bigbluehat, bret, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, Loqi, bitbear
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, bengo, tantek, KevinMarks, jaywink, jasnell, manuel, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot, cwebber2, rrika, aaronpk, raucao, rhiaro,
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bengo
tantek: I don't think sandro is on the call. Arnaud have you looked over those exit criteria? What is your opinion?
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manuel
could I be on the call?
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manuel
just to hear?
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bengo
Arnaud: I think aaronpk did a great job on webmention. I do want to point out that there is no open source requirement for implementations in the W3C process. We are free to add it. We are required to collection implementation reports.
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KevinMarks
manuel: bengo is transcribing the call
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bengo
Arnaud: It would be good to have a template implementation report for webmention and process for organizing them into one consolidated repo to take to W3C management when we feel like we have met the requirements to move to PR
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KevinMarks
"suitable" is proven by people actually using it, I assume
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bengo
aaronpk: I know of some not-publicly available implementations. 'open source' isn't specifically an important requirement. I intentionally wrote 'publicly available' and not 'open source'.
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bengo
aaronpk: I do know that there are a few implementations that are not publicly available but would interoperate and pass the test.
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bengo
Arnaud: I said open source. I would include downloadable/available in the same bag. It's an unusual requirement.
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bengo
aaronpk: Would you prefer I remove it?
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bengo
Arnaud: Yeah. I'm not opposed to it. The implementation report process can be gamed with fake software or reports of implementations that don't really exist.
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tantek
manuel, not today, but if you apply to be an invited expert and are accepted (likely for implementers of social wg specs), you can join in the future. Our minutes are public. See https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#How_to_participate and we can chat more after the call!
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bengo
aaronpk: If the W3C process is such that the closed implementations are fine, I'll adjust webmention's to allow that too.
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bengo
tantek: It didn't sound like there are any objections to the high bar of requiring public implementations
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aaronpk
"Non-shipping product releases must have implemented the feature(s) for a period of at least one month in order to demonstrate stability, or be endorsed by their responsible organization as sufficiently stable."
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bengo
aaronpk: Given previous quote, I thought it would be even easier to say implementations must be publicly available, not even for a month
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bengo
I like high bar
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bengo
tantek: Let's move this forward and make a proposal to accept these CR criteria
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bengo
Arnaud: Is there a test suite?
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bengo
aaronpk: There is one for sending webmentions at webmention.rocks
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bengo
aaronpk: for endpoint disccovery, sending, updating, and deleted. I haven't yet written the other half for testing receiving of webmentions.
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bengo
Arnaud: For practical purposes it is good to have a link in the spec we publish to the test suite, even if it's work in progress
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bengo
Arnaud: So that it's easy for people who want to implement
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bengo
Arnaud: We can finish CR exit crtieria resolution before talking test suite linking
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bengo
PROPOSED: accept webmention exit criteria as written by Aaron, after including changes discussed above by bengo, eprodrom
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bengo
+1
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eprodrom
+1
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bengo
tantek: I think that's everyone. Consider it Resolved
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bengo
RESOLVED: accept webmention exit criteria as written by Aaron, after including changes discussed above by bengo, eprodrom
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bengo
aaronpk: I think there is a tool that sends test data to an endpoint for sending and receiving. Just haven't turned it into a hosted service for others. But I will make that more explicit when I add test suite link to the draft.
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bengo
tantek: Can you add a link to webmention.rocks
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bengo
aaronpk: yeah.
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bengo
tantek: Does anyone have a preference on how to link to test suite?
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bengo
missed that
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bengo
tantek: next point. When people have tried the test suite. Where should they send their results?
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bengo
aaronpk: What's normal?
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tantek
tantek: go ahead and link to the test suite from the CR exit criteria
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bengo
Arnaud: Usually there is a mailing list. We could use that.
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bengo
tantek: I've seen it done lots of different ways. Another possibility is for you to come up with an implementation report template (as Arnaud suggested). And then either include or link it from the spec.
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bengo
tantek: Another possibility is start the implementation report on GitHub with the template, and accept pull requests for others to send theirs
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bengo
tantek: If email, you need a text template. If github, maybe a markdown template.
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bengo
Arnaud: LDP's, for example, test suite reports were machine readable. Don't have to do that here, but just an example.
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bengo
Arnaud: test suite and implementation report are in the document right up front
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KevinMarks
doesn't webmention.rocks document the implementations explicity?
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bengo
tantek: There's no harm in putting the link in both places (header and exit criteria section)
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bengo
aaronpk: To try to summarize what has to be done before we enter CR (vs during CR phase). Comma thing. Adding links to test suite. With those two things done, we can publish a new WD. What else needs to be done before CR?
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bengo
Arnaud: We need to be able to claim that the specification has received broad review. And as much as possible, we need to be able to demonstrate that by pointing to e.g. issues list with discussion from not just working group members.
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bengo
Arnaud: sandro would say "it would be best to have the test suite ready when we go to CR". Because as soon as there is a call for implementations, people may do it. And if there is no test suite it is kind of a downer. The sooner the test suite is available, the better. But not a show stopper.
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bengo
aaronpk: With that in mind, I would still like to publish a new version of the WD with today's changes
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bengo
tantek: Having that draft published would let you send an email to the WG mailing list asking for wider review. As well as any other W3C lists that you or the group thinks should review it before CR.
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bengo
PROPOSED: aaronpk will make suggested changes to the draft, including adding links to test suite. And publish a new version of the WD before next week's call
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bengo
?
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bengo
+1
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eprodrom
+1
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tantek
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: aaronpk, Arnaud, eprodrom, tsyesika, bengo, cwebber2, ´1
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Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, bengo, tantek, KevinMarks, jaywink, jasnell, manuel, shepazu, Arnaud, wilkie, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot, cwebber2, rrika, aaronpk, raucao, rhiaro,
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Zakim
... oshepherd, ben_thatmustbeme, jet, tsyesika, bigbluehat, bret, dwhly, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, Loqi, bitbear
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bengo
RESOLVED: aaronpk will make suggested changes to the draft, including adding links to test suite. And publish a new version of the WD before next week's call
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bengo
tantek: Arnaud, quickly looking at the process document, I see a public-announce@w3.org. Do people use that?
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bengo
Arnaud: idk.
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bengo
Arnaud: I don't know.
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bengo
Arnaud: It's not a very busy list, so I suspect it's not used much.
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bengo
aaronpk: Some SocialWG stuff is already on that list (Micropub, Webmention)
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bengo
tantek: Yeah it's probably fine to send something there indicating that Webmention is a WD we intend to take for CR.
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bengo
webmention
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bengo
FPWD
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo
tantek: And we should send it to our public mailing list as well
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo
Arnaud: Yes. That way when we go to CR it's clear we've told people and they've had a chance to look at it
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eprodrom
q-
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
Update on Micropub use of ActivityPub syntax
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bengo
tantek: Next agenda item. I added it for you after last week because I thought it was important to continue discussing or getting updates. Update on micropub use of activity syntax.
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bengo
aaronpk: I was able to run some new update syntax on my own server after fixing some bugs. And I could use it to edit posts on my site.
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bengo
aaronpk: We've been talking on the GitHub thread with implementors. And we'd like to be able to handle multiple operations in the same request, which the other syntax can't do
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bengo
aaronpk: People didn't seem opinionated about JSON vs form-urlencoded, just that one is better than multiple
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bengo
tantek: What's the next step?
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bengo
aaronpk: I would like feedback from WG memebers
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bengo
aaronpk: Otherwise, my instinct here is to not change the syntax since it is working and has the benefit of supporting multiple edits in same request.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bengo
aaronpk: But don't want to do that without more WG feedback
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cwebber2
I'm reading the linked indiewebcamp irc log
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cwebber2
oh wait
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cwebber2
this is from the meeting
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bengo
aaronpk: There are some changes that have been in the Editor's draft for awhile now.
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cwebber2
emailing the list would be helpful, I'm confused a bit about what's being proposed
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bengo
tantek: We're getting close to top of the hour. So going to suggest that aaronpk email the list with how you'd like to move forward in next telecon.
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bengo
tantek: and asking for the feedback you're looking for
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bengo
tantek: Sound reasonable to everyone?
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bengo
yes
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eprodrom
Good
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bengo
eprodrom: For ActivityStreams, we had a WD that was supposed to be done for today. But I got bogged down in updating example, so I'm working with jasnell to try to make it easier.
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bengo
eprodrom: It looks like we should be ready for next week.
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bengo
eprodrom: I may just update JSON versions and not the other ones. Progress is moving forward but it's mostly editorial.
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jasnell
will be able to look at those examples in a day or so
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bengo
eprodrom: It looks like we came to conclusions on the Relationship object.
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bengo
eprodrom: Oh look it's jasnell !!
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jasnell
my ears were burning
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bengo
eprodrom: I think the only thing we dont' ahve a conclusion on is the tombstoning one.
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bengo
tantek: So intention is to be able to have a new WD next week?
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bengo
eprodrom: yes
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bengo
cwebber2: We made some progress on ActivityPub last week but not this week.
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bengo
cwebber2: We're hoping to clear remaining issues over the course of this week
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bengo
tantek: Are we close to new WD next week?
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bengo
cwebber2: I think we could, yeah
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bengo
has a meeting 2 minutes ago
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Arnaud
I've got to go
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bengo
tantek: See you all next week
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bengo
npnp
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wilkie
bengo++
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Loqi
bengo has 14 karma
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bengo
Will someone type the incantation to end th emeeting?
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bengo
I will do this lata http://pandoc.amy.gy/
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tantek
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, Arnaud, eprodrom, tsyesika, bengo, cwebber2, ´1
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/26-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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tantek
bengo++ for minuting!
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Loqi
bengo has 15 karma
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Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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