#social 2016-09-13
2016-09-13 UTC
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# 
Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-09-22]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=99695&oldid=99566
# Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-09-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=99742&oldid=99582
# Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-09-13]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=99746&oldid=99742
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# 
cwebber2` hello
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# 
ben_thatmustbeme can't seem to get on to the actual webex client
# ben_thatmustbeme usually its by room #, i enter that and it just loads back to the same page
# ben_thatmustbeme i guess i'll call in today
# ben_thatmustbeme !tell sandro meeding dial in info doesn't have a link anywhere, just going to an old link where it asks for meeting # just seems to keep loading the same page over and over after entereing the meeting number, doesn't even get to asking for a PW
# ben_thatmustbeme who is dialed in right now?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber, yes, thats what i'm talking about
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/13-social-irc
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# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# bengo present+
# ben_thatmustbeme I can scribe, though i'll not be sure who is speaking
# ben_thatmustbeme not great audio
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme chair: tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: first thing is approval of minutes of last week
# 
tantek PROPOSED approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-06-minutes
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 i usually read in IRC and don't look at the minutes on the wiki until last minute
# tantek RESOLVED: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-06-minutes
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: as a reminder, we have no telcon next week, but we do have our F2F coming up
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we also have the planary day at TPAC, in the past we had several sessions related to the WG, so expect wednesday to be a pretty busy day
# ben_thatmustbeme ... and I believe TimBL has his talk on redecentralization on the morning of wednesday
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: tantek, have you proposed ?? on TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: back to discussion items
# ben_thatmustbeme ... is anyone else going to be on other than the 6 of us?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: first item on the discussion items, pubsubhubbub, was to we need to go the FPWD?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... we have a ED, and there are no issues, which i'm going to attribute to a lack of attention, not that no issues exist
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is he on the call?
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: no, i'm a little concerned that he hasn't been on the call last week or this week, he created the draft and hasn't been around since
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we may need to add a co-editor
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i don't think anyone on the call has any extra bandwidth
# bengo :)
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: just in case, i'll drop a link in to the chat
# ben_thatmustbeme ... my personal (non-chair) opinion is that this draft does make several improvements as aaronpk suggested
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: it needs to make CR in a month, its not going to get to RED
# ben_thatmustbeme s/RED/REC/
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats true, but i think its worth getting a note either way
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: sometimes people outside w3c don't understand the difference between a rec and a note
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i would certainly like to see it published by the w3c in some aspect
# ben_thatmustbeme ... next item is LDN by rhiaro and csarven
# ben_thatmustbeme ... they are asking for people to review, and file substantiative issues before F2F
# ben_thatmustbeme ... that stikes me as fast, but we've done other things fast in the WG
# ben_thatmustbeme ... theres been a lot of dev in the last month, and only a few open issues, and there is even a test suite in progress
# ben_thatmustbeme .... would like to commend the editors on that
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i think you've summarized things well, we've had feedback from implementors and potential implementors. We've been doing our own implementations, we have exit criteria, we are working on implementation report template. we just want attentive review by the group
# ben_thatmustbeme ... this gives everyone a week and a half to review it before the TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is the current ED ready for a new WD?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: yes, there are a few editorial changes, but normative changes are frozen right now
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i don't know thats necessary for CR, but if we need to do that, we can
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: its actually very necessary, one of the things for CR is getting wide-review, and this is our newest draft
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we have some of that in the issues
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: ?? i only see 1 new issue by someone that i don't recognize
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: they aren't all opened by people outside the group, but there has been some discussion by others outside the group
# ben_thatmustbeme i believe the process doc says something about comments and a few issues does not = wide review
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i know that showing wide review can be the hardest part to show
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i'd strongly suggest anoter WD to help with that, do you have a changes section?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: link in IRC
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i should add that i'm going to reach out to the horizontal review wgs
# ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: all +1s so lets declare this and move on
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: part of our job as chairs is to help the specs along, so i think this will help
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i've tried to set expectations for F2F, did that make sense, any additional questions about that? the additional questions are going to be about implementations, implementations interop, implementations that are not from the editors
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we'll be able to demonstrate some at TPAC, hopefully beyond the editors
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do you have any at-risks?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: we have 1 at-risk, we're hoping to add it to the namespace, but there is a w3c process to that
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is that a specific features?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: the namespace is set to ldp for the whole spec ???
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats not really what at-risk means
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: this is fine, its a small part of it that might change between a small value change
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats not my understanding, but we should check the spec
# ben_thatmustbeme (arguement over what people "BELIEVE")
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: so any features at-risk?
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: there aren't any features at risk no
# ben_thatmustbeme (rhiaro i missed all that, can you put that in the minutes?)
# ben_thatmustbeme short and sweet
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: any other questions about LDN from the group?
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there is a strong suggestion to file any substantiative issues, which i want to underscore
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: moving on to activitypub
# ben_thatmustbeme ... it looks like chris and jessica. there is a request to please read the latest ED, and file any subs. issues before TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme ... would like to go to CR at TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: one question i'd like to ask, for several F2F meetings, we've discussed a pump.io federation implementation and wanted to know how long it would take to update the implementation to support the lastest spec
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'm not directly involved in pump.io other than answering quesitons. I have my own implementation
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there are internal transitions going in the group, but i don't know if anyone has an plans to do that right now
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'm guessing mediagoblin was the version you demonstration before?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: yes, previously it was mediagoblin using pump.io's spec, but now i plan to update mediagoblin to use AP
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i've stepped away a little from mediagoblin, i have been working on my own other implementation
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think one of the things was to get mediagoblin up to date before going to CR
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: whats left on pubstraight?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i should be able to demonstrate it at TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that kind of fresh prototype is good, and we look forward to that demo, but to set expectations, its a bit concerning that it isn't working with mediagoblin at the moment
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i don't remember any discussion about that exactly
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i believe there was a concern of having ANY implementations of it before going to CR
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i don't remember anything about needing implementations before going to CR
# ben_thatmustbeme I was looking at this https://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#candidate-rec
# ben_thatmustbeme i see, i misread that
# ben_thatmustbeme it says "how it will be demonstrated"
# ben_thatmustbeme scribenick:ben_thatmustbeme
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we did discuess several times how we would figure out how to get implementation experience from as1 implementors
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i wanted to say that i have implemented parts of AP as well so we can work on getitng those working together before TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i still don't understand what you were saying about implementations of AS2, there is a link in the spec for implmentation reports and it goes to an empty web-page
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: maybe i was looking at the wrong link..... ahh i see the confusion. on our home page there is a link
# ben_thatmustbeme ... multiple of those are outside the group, where as the spec links to something else which is empty
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i believe the entire time we were disucssing it in the group we were looking at the wiki page, not for implmeentation reports as we weren't at CR yet
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if theres some way we can make that more discoverable from the spec or somewhere, i'll leave that to the editors
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: hopefully we'll get actual implmentation reports for it soon
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: yes, thats the best way
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: cwebber2 i believe you asked the question about existing implmentations and thats what led us down this thread
# ben_thatmustbeme ... i wish evan was here as i know we had that discussion with him. according to Zakim, bengo is on the call
# ben_thatmustbeme ... bengo are you still there?
# bengo I am on chat but not call
# bengo (couldn't access new webex page, reset w3 password, takes awhile to propogate)
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'm just going to speak clearly how i feel about this. after the call last week, i have dropped everything on the floor to do what i needed to get this to CR. I never understood that updating an existing implementation to this before CR. I feel like i've done everything i possibly could do to get this to CR and i feel like i'm being blocked now. It doesn't sound like this is a standard process thing, it should have been made clear to
# ben_thatmustbeme me much earlier
# ben_thatmustbeme (cwebber2, is that a good minuting of that?)
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: as I understood it was that there was work on converting it activity pub was what you were working on. And if there is no implmenetation.....
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i'm talking about the UPDATING and existing implmenetation
# ben_thatmustbeme ... that was not expressed clearly
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: as someone relatively outside of this spec, i don't remember which state (before CR after,etc) i remember seeing several times discussion of "its coming" and i thought there was work on AS2 in mediagoblin
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: we have been working on switching to as2 from as1, but our focus was on pump.io api. everything we have been doing has been informed by our work on pump.io
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i was not clear on the expectation that mediagoblin neede to implement activitypub before CR
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'm not saying that its a blockade, its just surprising for those of us that had that understanding. there isn't a requirement for that in the process, but that was our understanding of how it was working.
# ben_thatmustbeme ... just because there was that expetation and surprise, it does not mean that its blocking you
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: part of the reasons i implementation with pubstrate. I wanted to do it wihout too much mediagoblin influence
# ben_thatmustbeme ... that way it was completely seperate, and it didn't have too much bias. does that make sense?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: Yes, very much, and i commend you on that incitefulness on doing that. i think aaronpk has written and thrown away micropub implementations just like that. i think we should just look at what parts are implemented and what are not.
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i certainly see a reason to hold off on CR as i have not started a test suite, and i haven't set up implementation reports, etc
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there isn't a requirement for a test suite, we just ask a plan on how a test suite will be done
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we do need your assessment of what features you would consider at risk
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i think the biggest challenge with AP is that the autorization section is going to be a little more vague, changing tokens, etc
# ben_thatmustbeme ... there was an earlier ticket about moving to a new section that is intentionally vague
# ben_thatmustbeme ... other things i'm pretty confident on, but i could do a more thorough review for sure
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: one option i would suggest, which is "if there are less than 2 implementations of a specific feature, than it should be at-risk"
# ben_thatmustbeme ... if you have any feature that you don't both implement and preferrably interoperate with
# ben_thatmustbeme ... you might want to talk with aaronpk, about how to write out the auth / tokens issue
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i really appreciate your working with us, there are a lot of first time editors in this group so its really great the work you have done
# ben_thatmustbeme my god can it be over yet?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: just as we asked for LDN, are there changes you want to republish as a WD
# ben_thatmustbeme ... can we get a link to the changelog?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we are going to go a few minutes over if there are no objections
# tantek PROPOSED: Publish new WD of Activitypub based on editor's draft https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypub/
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# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i see a bunch of changes here which is certainly worthy of publishing a new WD
# tantek RESOLVED: Publish new WD of Activitypub based on editor's draft https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypub/
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: if there is some way you can get that out before TPAC, that would be great
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: anyone that want to provide any other update?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i can give a quick update. on micropub i have 2 issues i'm waiting for commenter to reply on those, some may require some discussion. webmention hasn't had much changes, mostly editorial that i haven't had time to make yet
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i have enough changes on micropub that its worth people to review the changes since the last
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: can you add that to the required reading section for F2F?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: how are we with test-suite completeness (to all our implementors)
# ben_thatmustbeme s/implementors/editors
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we have a test for every feature?
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: not yet
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: for others going to CR, thats going to be the next thing is looking for, test coverage, and implementation reports
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think we should spend a minute talking about TPAC
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: how do we pitch a session on it. I think a title for open discussion would be "Decentralized Web"
# ben_thatmustbeme ... some sort of framework for it would be good, if tim gave a keynote for it, it would be good
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i don't know the content of the talk, if you can find it out
# ben_thatmustbeme s/decentralized web/decentralized social web
# ben_thatmustbeme audio cut out when you said "social" on my end
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think "decentralized web" is too generic and not a great title
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: certainly that would cover things outside our title
# ben_thatmustbeme s/title/charter
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think of this as maybe setting the stage for what the next WG would be, not the status of this group as much
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think that if we are able to show demos to those outside the WG, that would be good
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: who would be up for giving a demo? aaronpkis always good for that right?
# 
KevinMarks Indeed, and decentralized web has an existing group
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yeah i can do that
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think this group has been pretty good about having demos too
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i can demo too
# KevinMarks I can join in remote demos
# ben_thatmustbeme csarven: as can i (via emoji)
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i'll update the wiki page and say we will have demos and what people might want to do in the future
# KevinMarks Do we need to parse emoticons as well as emoji now?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think if we can demonstrate a positive example of evolving multiple approaches, which is something that is uncommon in the w3c, so if you can keep that in mind in your demos
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: if no other business
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thank you everyone
# ben_thatmustbeme ... see at least some of you next week
# tantek sandro: FYI, "Social Web" breakout session from TPAC 2015 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas#Social_Web (minutes, wiki, photo)
# ben_thatmustbeme trackbot end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/13-social-minutes.html trackbot
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# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, bye
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# 
rhiaro New LDN draft published... https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn ... echidna worked FIRST TIME for the first time every \o/
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# ben_thatmustbeme thank rhiaro for creating the minutes
# ben_thatmustbeme i was just about to do that
# 
cwebber2 new version of AP up too https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
# ben_thatmustbeme no problem
# 
@dustyweb @jaywink See the new version of the spec for how that might be done... feedback appreciated https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/%23authorization-lds (twitter.com/_/status/775783546434781184)
# @dustyweb New Working Draft of ActivityPub published! https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/775783376959733760)
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