2016-10-04 UTC
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# 14:18 cwebber2 This document was published by the Social Web Working Group as an Editor's Draft. If you wish to make comments regarding this document, please send them to public-socialweb@w3.org (subscribe, archives). All comments are welcome. shepazu, tantek, eprodrom, bengo and annbass joined the channel
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# 16:58 bengo present+ on irc but not call (spotty wifi) julien joined the channel
# 17:00 julien hey. do we have the call today? # 17:01 julien what's the dial in info? # 17:01 Zakim Present: rhiaro, on, irc, but, not, call, (spotty, wifi), sandro, aaronpk, tantek, annbass # 17:01 Zakim On IRC I see julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, annbass, bengo, eprodrom, tantek, shepazu, timbl, AdamB, strugee, cwebber2, wilkie, ben_thatmustbeme, hadleybeeman, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, # 17:01 Zakim ... bigbluehat, ElijahLynn, dwhly, bitbear, rrika, csarven, rhiaro, raucao, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot # 17:02 tantek bengo present+ takes one parameter - your name as you want it displayed # 17:02 Zakim Present: rhiaro, irc, but, not, call, (spotty, wifi), sandro, aaronpk, tantek, annbass # 17:02 Zakim On IRC I see julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, annbass, bengo, eprodrom, tantek, shepazu, timbl, AdamB, strugee, cwebber2, wilkie, ben_thatmustbeme, hadleybeeman, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, # 17:02 Zakim ... bigbluehat, ElijahLynn, dwhly, bitbear, rrika, csarven, rhiaro, raucao, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot # 17:02 hadleybeeman wishes you a good call! # 17:03 Zakim Present: rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, tantek, annbass, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber # 17:03 Zakim On IRC I see julien, Zakim, RRSAgent, annbass, bengo, eprodrom, tantek, shepazu, timbl, AdamB, strugee, cwebber2, wilkie, ben_thatmustbeme, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, bigbluehat, # 17:03 Zakim ... ElijahLynn, dwhly, bitbear, rrika, csarven, rhiaro, raucao, wseltzer, sandro, trackbot # 17:03 Loqi tantek has 306 karma (47 in this channel) # 17:04 tantek cwebber2: still time to do so - add to end of discussion items # 17:05 rhiaro I normally go through and clean the f2f minutes up but I haven't had chance to do that yet # 17:05 tantek rhiaro - shall we postpone f2f minute approval to next week then? # 17:06 rhiaro tantek, they're probably fine, it's just the dump from the logs # 17:06 cwebber2 +1 with endorsement for rhiaro to do any cleanup she feels like if she wants to still # 17:08 rhiaro eprodrom: For the f2f minutes it sounds like based on irc discussion that they haven't been cleaned up yet and tantek suggested that we postpone til next week # 17:08 eprodrom TOPIC November face-to-face details # 17:08 rhiaro ... Planning on doing our last f2f in November # 17:09 rhiaro sandro: at the last f2f we worked through dates and possibilities and came to Nov 17 and 18 in Boston or SF # 17:09 rhiaro ... I mentioned that on email and people expressed preferences to Boston # 17:09 rhiaro ... tantek and I talked this over, so unless someone has a last mintue problem with boston vs SF, that's what we'll do # 17:09 rhiaro ... eprodrom, you're the one haven't heard from akuckartz joined the channel
# 17:10 aaronpk evan is just super muffled, everyone else is much clearer # 17:10 eprodrom PROPOSED f2f meeting on 17 and 18 Nov 2016 in Boston # 17:11 eprodrom +1 will attend # 17:11 rhiaro sandro: on your +1s say whether you expect to attend # 17:11 eprodrom RESOLVED f2f meeting on 17 and 18 Nov 2016 in Boston # 17:12 rhiaro eprodrom: any other discussion we need to have about this? # 17:12 rhiaro tantek: I can create the boilerplate wikipage and sandro can update as host # 17:12 rhiaro sandro: It'll be in the room called Kiva at MIT # 17:13 cwebber2 it would be nicer if the group had an extension and we could meet in early 2017 ;) # 17:14 rhiaro tantek: the charter says we should have 3 per year, so if anyone wants to object they can # 17:14 rhiaro ... but if anyone does feel strongly we should not meet, please speak up, it's your right per the charter # 17:15 eprodrom TOPIC Micropub update # 17:15 rhiaro aaronpk: just a quick update. I did the security and privacy review for it and that's not incorporated into the latest ED # 17:16 rhiaro ... One thing from that is it seems to be written assuuming the thing being reivewed is written as part of the browser, so some of the questions were challenging in that context # 17:16 rhiaro ... The other micropub update is that I've been making progress on the test suite # 17:16 tantek q+ re: security reviews browser vs what we spec # 17:16 rhiaro ... It has tests for creating posts in form encoded and json, and also updating # 17:17 rhiaro ... just working through tests based on the issues # 17:17 rhiaro ... So if you do have a micropub implementation please feel free to take a look at that # 17:17 rhiaro ... The other thing point out is that it stores the test results itself so creating the implementation report summary will be easier becasue allt he data will be in that website already # 17:17 rhiaro aaronpk: It's just stored, each test has a nubmer so I can store whether it passed or failed each test # 17:18 rhiaro ... So I'll be able to generate that in whatever format we need # 17:18 Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss security reviews browser vs what we spec # 17:18 rhiaro tantek: the thing about the security and privacy questionnaire mostly sounding like it's been written from a browser perspective is accurate # 17:18 rhiaro ... that was the driving force behind writing it up # 17:19 rhiaro ... getting editors aware of security and privacy implications implementing w3c specs in the browser # 17:19 rhiaro ... but we shoould be interpreting those questions liberally # 17:19 rhiaro ... and think about the intent, what are they getting at in terms of vulnerabilities # 17:19 rhiaro ... so even if it seems like it's browser specific, broaden the scope of that in your mind and consider what is the equivalent from the server perspective as well # 17:20 rhiaro ... concerns about cookies, or implementations being stored on the browser, eg. for private browsing mode # 17:20 rhiaro ... the equivalent for a server would be the server maintaning user data or stats or cookies or logs which are actually important to call out # 17:20 rhiaro ... in some juristictions there are rules about that # 17:20 rhiaro ... eg. europe, the ability to be forgotten by the server # 17:20 rhiaro ... anything that sounds browser specific, think about what it measn for the server to have to do the equivalent # 17:21 rhiaro ... I'll take a look at those answers and in places where some feedback will help with the privacy and security questionnaire I'll also push some of thsoe changes to the questions upstream and update the questionnaire itself # 17:21 rhiaro ... It'll help to have examples in our specs where we're doing that # 17:21 rhiaro can anyone else hear the constant giggling from the MIT end of this call? # 17:21 rhiaro there's someone outside our conference room having way too much fun # 17:22 eprodrom TOPIC Webmention update # 17:22 eprodrom I hear it too # 17:22 rhiaro aaronpk: Did the security and privacy questionnaire for webmention as well # 17:22 AdamB i hear it a little, not too much # 17:22 rhiaro ... the other thing with webmention is I took all of the implementation reports that are submitted and complied into a spreadsheet # 17:22 rhiaro ... there are 8 senders and 7 receivers recorded # 17:23 rhiaro ... what I did is marked for each test whether the person had reported it passing # 17:23 rhiaro ... and column B is the percent of implementatons that passed each test # 17:23 rhiaro ... With senders they're all essentially 75% and higher implemented. # 17:23 rhiaro ... With receivers, everything except 2 features have more than one implementation, marked in yellow # 17:23 rhiaro ... they're the only two that are red flags for those features # 17:23 rhiaro ... very happy to see there are already 2+ implementations of everything in the sepc # 17:24 rhiaro aaronpk: after the f2f we had an indiewebcamp in brighton # 17:25 rhiaro ... a few of us brainstormed extension to webmention that would allow it to work for URLs that require access control # 17:25 rhiaro ... My hackday project was to write it up as a sepc # 17:25 rhiaro ... a couple of extra things before the webmentino processing, then it hands off to regular webmention processing # 17:25 rhiaro ... excited about this, and we already have implementations started # 17:25 rhiaro ... three combinations of sending and receiving right now # 17:25 rhiaro ... happy to be able to say that there will be an answer to how webmention works with private content # 17:26 rhiaro ... once it has more implementations we'll add it to the list of extensions on the spec # 17:26 rhiaro eprodrom: So I've made a post, you've sent me a webmention and I'll show the response... is the intention that the response would not be shown on my site? # 17:27 rhiaro aaronpk: that's typically how webmentions are used, but similar to how the webmention spec doesn't actually say you have to show a comment, it leaves that out, and the goal of this spec is getting the verification to work # 17:27 rhiaro ... a separate issue is what people do with that # 17:27 rhiaro ... my intent is not to specify how or when peopel should show comments # 17:27 rhiaro ... that will depend on why the post is private and what audience it's for # 17:27 rhiaro ... I expect now that implementations would not show them as comments except maye for the owner of the site # 17:27 rhiaro ... but I want to leave that open for more intelligent display of received comments # 17:27 rhiaro ... the whole goal o fthis spec was to get the verification to work with authenticated content # 17:28 rhiaro eprodrom: specifying the intention early might be good to avoid mistakes # 17:28 rhiaro ... if I were to send you a webmention form my site and my intention is that it would have the same access control as I have on my site # 17:28 rhiaro ... if I haven't made it public to the whole world, you wouldn't make it public to the whole world either. If you did do that it would be contrary to my intention # 17:29 rhiaro ... What scenario would there be where I have it private on my site but you can make it public on yours? # 17:29 rhiaro aaronpk: I would expect it to have the same access control as the source # 17:29 rhiaro ... I don't want to get into ACL stuff with this, but I would epxect that anyone in the group who could see the original could see the comment on the other site as well # 17:29 rhiaro eprodrom: it seems like being more conservative in this case might be better, but it's obviously up to you how people use it # 17:30 eprodrom TOPIC: ActivityPub update # 17:30 rhiaro cwebber2: There have been a number of changes to AP and when we spoke at the f2f we talked about publishing a new WD # 17:31 rhiaro ... There's a new ED with a changelog of all the changes # 17:31 rhiaro ... Probably the biggest change is adding the soure field stuff as discussed at the f2f, and adding that and the binary data mechanism as at risk # 17:31 rhiaro ... but I would like to propose releasing a new WD # 17:32 rhiaro sandro: the plan is still to vote on CR a week from now? # 17:33 rhiaro ... my outstanding question regarding voting for CR next week is I did see a bunch of the i18n folks filing issues, do you expect to have responses to those by next week? # 17:34 rhiaro cwebber2: I've already closed 1, and the other 2 I know what's happening, so I'm pretty confident # 17:34 eprodrom RESOLVED: Publish new WD of ActivityPub # 17:34 rhiaro cwebber2: Bringing AP to CR and the steps I'm taking towards that # 17:35 rhiaro ... I am working to make sure that everythign is in the right state for ?? # 17:35 rhiaro ... security and privacy section was added, planning on adding to the CR wiki page # 17:35 rhiaro ... I'm not sure if this should be on the document itself, the testing plan # 17:35 rhiaro ... I do have a general sense of what that's gonna be # 17:35 rhiaro ... I have also sent the requests for horizontal review, and we've already got responses from i18 and a11y (off list) # 17:36 rhiaro ... I've sent out stuff for wide review and I've been starting to get feedback, and going to make a mediagoblin blog post to day and asking our donors for additional review # 17:36 rhiaro ... we've already got a good amount, not all on the wiki page yet # 17:36 rhiaro ... will be working on that today, and collapsing tha tpage into the CR page on the wiki # 17:36 rhiaro ... I have been getting feedback, the majority was people concerned about the cryptographic integrity of the document # 17:37 rhiaro ... so this might be partly because of the people who are paying most attention to AP are in the federated social web space and are concerned about decentralisation from that kind of perspective # 17:37 rhiaro ... there were a couple of peopel from diaspora who had weighed in before, that were about how diaspora has done sigantures and asking that we do the same # 17:37 rhiaro ... I don't think signatures are going to make it in, but I've left text on how that might be done # 17:37 rhiaro ... Cleared it up so the method of verification is left open # 17:37 rhiaro ... That was surprising so far, but they seem very interested in that # 17:37 rhiaro ... And some other feedback I'll be getting to over the week # 17:37 tantek q+ to ask if signatures could be done as an extension? and does this relate to private webmentions at all? should it? # 17:38 rhiaro ... I'm pretty confident about us being able to hit CR next week # 17:38 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask if signatures could be done as an extension? and does this relate to private webmentions at all? should it? # 17:39 rhiaro tantek: I tried to follow some of those conversatiosn about signatures, I think you're doing the right hting Chris, but is that something we could write up or add later as an extension? # 17:39 rhiaro ... That if servers decided to adopt that extension they'd have some way of discovering that they are talking to someone who supports signatures? # 17:39 rhiaro ... And potentially satisfy the commenter concerns in that way? # 17:39 rhiaro ... Part 2 of this question is from hearing aaron's discussion about private webmention, is there / shoulld there be relation? # 17:40 rhiaro cwebber2: Yes I think it can be done as an extension # 17:40 rhiaro ... I'm interested in continuing that conversation # 17:40 rhiaro ... We've all elft this space open in our specs # 17:40 rhiaro ... to leave verification somewhat ambiguous with some proposed methods for doing so # 17:40 rhiaro ... the most basic being checking the source content. But having left it open we can define that as an extension and make sure it's compatible going into the future # 17:40 rhiaro ... So yes I'm interested in collaborating with aaron and anyone who is interested # 17:41 rhiaro ... and whether or not it applies to the private messaging stuff # 17:41 annbass q+ to say something about next steps (when this topic is done) # 17:41 rhiaro ... it definitely applies there, and as a means of verification, another place where it was brought up is that some of you might remmeber that amy and I put a mechanism for forwarding messages into the AP spec so you wouldn't have the problem that pumpio currently has # 17:41 rhiaro ... where if you send a message to someone' sfollowers and someone replies and people up the chain don't see it # 17:41 eprodrom I got kicked off the call # 17:41 rhiaro ... so weh ave a forwarding mechanism but without a clear way of identifying that a message really came from that person # 17:42 rhiaro ... it's an interesting point, they really rely on that # 17:42 rhiaro ... there are multiple reasons to want that, but we don't need to solve that in the time of this group, we can work on it going forward # 17:42 rhiaro tantek: we are talking about the winding down of the wg, but after the f2f we did agree to start a CG and this is a perfect candidate to be discussed # 17:43 rhiaro ... we figured out a bunch of things, and we're taking them to CR, and anything else is a bit more experimental and that's the perfect use of a CG is to take this ideas and start to incubate them there # 17:43 rhiaro ... without a particular timeline or deadline # 17:43 rhiaro ... and if at some point in the future we have enough critical mass tow rite up normatively we can go through another wg process # 17:43 rhiaro ... Just for folks who weren't at the f2f, we did decide to create a CG # 17:44 rhiaro ... we agreed not to start any new drafts at the f2f # 17:44 rhiaro ... so we do have a continuity story, just not in this WG # 17:44 eprodrom TOPIC Activity Streams # 17:45 rhiaro eprodrom: i had a task to take on some of the outstanding bugs on the validator # 17:45 Zakim sees annbass, cwebber on the speaker queue # 17:45 rhiaro ... And that takes us to the end. Anything else? # 17:45 Zakim annbass, you wanted to say something about next steps (when this topic is done) # 17:46 rhiaro annbass: We agreed at the f2f to start a CG to continue the follow on # 17:46 julien Maybe PubSubHubbub? (not that I have nything special to say though...) # 17:46 rhiaro ... I've been chatting with akuckartz who is cochair of the federated socweb CG (with evan) and andreas questions if we should close that or repurpose that # 17:47 rhiaro ... we can continue to conversation on the followon by email # 17:47 cwebber2 didn't realize that activitypub was activitypub before it was activitypump?????!!!! # 17:47 rhiaro ... andreas says there are people in that CG who are interested and might want to re-engage # 17:47 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:47 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:48 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:49 rhiaro tantek: I think as far as we discussed at thef2f, part of the intent of creating the social web incuabor group was to... we discussed closing down a number of CGs and we'd include their work as part of the new gropu... for example the PuSH CG ... so we can declare that CG succeeded in incubating... part of the point was to provide a continuity of like here is a group that's been active (the WG) and the future of that is to incubate thingse beyond what we've # 17:49 rhiaro ... and I feel like we've built 'brand recognition' with the good work the WG has done # 17:49 rhiaro ... and to keep that and indicate that there's continuity here # 17:49 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, annbass on the speaker queue # 17:50 rhiaro ... so unless andreas has any objectsion, I think that's a good reason to start the new CG and also it'll be a good announcement that we're starting a new group with the following scope # 17:50 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, annbass, akuckartz on the speaker queue # 17:50 rhiaro ... what we've done before, plus the other CGs # 17:50 rhiaro ... I think it woulld be better to bring those under one umbrella, make a new brand we can announce and get people excited again, rather tahn attempting reuse of an existing one # 17:50 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, annbass, akuckartz on the speaker queue # 17:51 eprodrom ack akuckartz # 17:51 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, annbass on the speaker queue # 17:51 rhiaro akuckartz: I think we should discuss this by mail # 17:51 rhiaro ... I think the fact that there are more than 120 members of the fedsocweb CG # 17:52 rhiaro ... Almost all of them were becoming members over a long period of time because they're itnerested in decentralised social web, and I think this should be a factor in deciding the future of how to build a new CG # 17:52 tantek note: everyone in all past CGs should absolutely be invited to join the new SWICG # 17:52 rhiaro ... The social IG should take this task, which was closed down # 17:52 rhiaro ... To rebuild a CG it will be eaiser than in the past because of the WG, but it still is a lot of effort # 17:53 rhiaro ... Many of the people who are conerned about the social web, I don't think .. if the active members from the WG join then the CG will become active again AdamB joined the channel
# 17:53 rhiaro ... Regarding the name, I don't care very much about that, federated or not, but the aim is to have a decentralised social web and that should be reflected, even if it's just social # 17:53 rhiaro ... I think everybody knows the CG will not have the target of creating silos # 17:54 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:54 rhiaro annbass: seems like we're talking about similar things and we want to capture the members of this group, and the closing IG, and the existing CGS # 17:54 rhiaro ... we all share an interest in the existing standards, I agree with tantek's point that we want to capitalise on the identity we've built through this group # 17:55 rhiaro cwebber2: new topic... I should have put this on the agenda # 17:55 rhiaro ... There was something that was discussed at the f2f is whether AP coudl bei n the AS2 namespace or in its own namespace # 17:55 rhiaro ... It significantly simplifies things for AP if it's in the AS2 namespac # 17:55 rhiaro ... then if someone uses the AS2 mime type it will match up # 17:56 rhiaro ... I forget whether there was a resolution, but neither AS2 editors were present # 17:56 rhiaro ... it looks like inbox has moved forward with being included in the LDP namespace # 17:56 rhiaro ... it would be great to knwo if we could work on getting the AP terms into the AS2 namespace # 17:56 rhiaro ... Especially because it seems like there is precedent to do that rightnow # 17:56 rhiaro ... I should probably point out taht I do have an issue about this that lists the terms # 17:57 rhiaro eprodrom: the ideas is that the activitypub terms that... great... let's get james on this # 17:57 rhiaro ... and we'll figure out which if any of these are going to go into AS2 # 17:57 rhiaro <rhiaro> just to note that this isn't about putting them in the AS2 *spec* just the namespace # 17:57 rhiaro cwebber2: it's critical that we figure this out before CR # 17:58 rhiaro sandro: i thought james chimed in on the issue and said it was okay # 17:58 rhiaro ... At that point, evan would you available to help move forward with that? # 17:58 rhiaro ... We just need the promise that it will happen # 17:58 rhiaro eprodrom: you want me to add 13 new properties to AS2? And we have to identify where they fit # 17:58 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 17:59 rhiaro cwebber2: they don't have to go into the AS2 spec, just the ns # 17:59 rhiaro eprodrom: so we'd have things in the ns document that aren't in the spec? # 17:59 rhiaro sandro: the idea is that extensions to AS2 would share the namespace # 17:59 rhiaro ... and so AP would be the first of those extensions but there could be others # 17:59 rhiaro ... so people using AS2 with a bunch of extensions don't need a bunch of different namespaces # 18:00 rhiaro eprodrom: sounds good. No big objection, just making sure we're on-plan # 18:00 rhiaro ... So what you're asking is to have these items added to the json-ld context? # 18:00 rhiaro rhiaro: we also need a human friendly version of the AS2 namespace, we'll work on that as well # 18:01 eprodrom trackbot, end meeting # 18:01 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been rhiaro, on, irc, but, not, call, (spotty, wifi), sandro, aaronpk, tantek, annbass, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, csarven, julien, AdamB, # 18:01 Loqi rhiaro has 238 karma (127 in this channel) # 18:01 Loqi rhiaro has 239 karma (128 in this channel) # 18:03 bengo waves from Namche Bazaar, Nepal shepazu joined the channel
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# 19:15 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8) # 19:19 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8) # 19:23 csarven will participate remotely - no funding to attend (for LDN) # 19:24 tantek csarven, instead of you projecting, we'll have to project you! tantek joined the channel
# 20:19 tantek that reminds me, I never got around to publishing the WD update to PTD. guess I should do that today! # 20:25 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed tantek joined the channel
# 21:45 cwebber2 now working on post-TPAC blogpost on the mediagoblin blog jungbin, tantek and strugee joined the channel
Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-09-20]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=100294&oldid=0
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/04-social-irc
bengo present+ on irc but not call (spotty wifi)
ben_thatmustbeme present+
tantek ben_thatmustbeme FYI this is my keyboard you are hearing http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/
annbass cwebber and I put in a pitch for our hotdog keyboards: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-silver/ (for those prone to tendonitis)
cwebber2 notably I also surprisingly bumped into https://www.w3.org/community/activitypub/ today :)
rhiaro tantek: I think as far as we discussed at thef2f, part of the intent of creating the social web incuabor group was to... we discussed closing down a number of CGs and we'd include their work as part of the new gropu... for example the PuSH CG ... so we can declare that CG succeeded in incubating... part of the point was to provide a continuity of like here is a group that's been active (the WG) and the future of that is to incubate thingse beyond what we've
sandro https://www.w3.org/community/fedsocweb/ 124 people