2016-11-08 UTC
jasnell, jasnell_ and annbass joined the channel
tsyesika and eprodrom joined the channel
# 18:03 eprodrom trackbot, start meeting RRSAgent joined the channel
Zakim joined the channel
# 18:03 eprodrom Can someone scribe? # 18:03 Loqi rhiaro: tantek left you a message 6 days, 18 hours ago: do you know how we (chairs / staff) can make blog posts here: https://www.w3.org/blog/ (as other WG chairs (including non-W3C-team people) seem to be able to) ? # 18:03 Loqi sandro: tantek left you a message 6 days, 18 hours ago: do you know how we (chairs / staff) can make blog posts here: https://www.w3.org/blog/ (as other WG chairs (including non-W3C-team people) seem to be able to) ? # 18:04 Zakim Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose aaronpk # 18:04 eprodrom Zakim, who's here? # 18:04 Zakim Present: annbass, rhiaro, aaronpk, tsyesika, eprodrom, sandro # 18:04 Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, tsyesika, annbass, jasnell, strugee, KjetilK_, sandro, ben_thatmustbeme, wseltzer, oshepherd, cwebber2, wilkie, raucao, csarven, pdurbin, # 18:04 Zakim ... bigbluehat, bitbear, dwhly, ElijahLynn, jet, aaronpk, Loqi, rrika, rhiaro, trackbot # 18:07 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8) # 18:07 sandro evan: Reminder: Face-to-Face meeting next week, in the Boston area # 18:07 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8) # 18:07 sandro eprodrom: Media wiki tables are a challenge, but we can do it! # 18:09 sandro eprodrom: Anyone who thinks we should have a telecon Tuesday? # 18:09 eprodrom PROPOSED: cancel Tuesday Nov 15 2016 telecon # 18:10 eprodrom RESOLVED: cancel Tuesday Nov 15 2016 telecon # 18:10 rhiaro I will lead everyone to Veggie Galaxy unless overridden by someone else # 18:10 Loqi rhiaro has 136 karma in this channel (247 overall) # 18:10 sandro .. it'd be good, but let's figure it out later # 18:12 sandro eprodrom: Must every AS2 object have a name? Complicated # 18:12 sandro .. I think re resolved to have a fallback name property # 18:13 sandro eprodrom: right now we have a SHOULD requirement for .name of every Activty, Collection, Image, Person, etc # 18:13 sandro .. question was raised -- for some objects, like a Collection, the name fields forced # 18:13 sandro .. Sometimes it doesn't seem like there should be a name # 18:14 sandro .. the counter argument: there will be many consumers that will want to present activities that they might not understand, or be able to render in any specific way, so it'd be nice to have something like name to fallback on # 18:14 sandro .. esp with extension types, or obscure types tantek joined the channel
# 18:15 sandro .. Problem with doing that: some consumers may want to have customized presentation, and they wouldn't be able to tell which names were really specific to that object (eg my name) vs a generated name like (eg Unnamed Person) # 18:16 sandro .. so the resolution is to have a fallback name required, and an option name would be allowed. # 18:16 sandro .. fbname might be "a person", name "evan prodromou" # 18:16 tantek here if you need me to take over chairing Evan # 18:16 sandro rhiaro: I put it on the agenda, because I didn't think we'd decided what the names were going to be. # 18:17 sandro .. If we're making a normative change, we need to extend CR # 18:17 sandro .. and I'm implementing and need to know what to do KevinMarks joined the channel
# 18:17 sandro eprodrom: Yeah, I don't think we'd picked the final properties # 18:18 sandro rhiaro: biggest thing is if we're going to make a normative change -- which seems unavoidable -- if we make .name the required property, or if a we add another required property that's also normative ... # 18:18 tantek q+ to note that IIRC at the f2f we decided to drop the SHOULD for name, which should not affect any conformant implementations. the fallbackname did not have consensus # 18:19 sandro eprodrom: If we use name as the mostly-required (SHOULD) and add an optional "title" # 18:19 tantek oh please no "title" in addition that will confuse everything # 18:19 sandro rhiaro: It'd need to be MUST to be a reliable fallback # 18:19 tantek BTW such a "fallbackname" is kind of a brand new feature and having never been incubated is not really appropriate to add during CR # 18:20 sandro eprodrom: I see that point, but we've had it as a should for so long, and it's serving that same role # 18:20 sandro rhiaro: Okay, so we're relying on developers taking the SHOULD very seriously # 18:20 Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:20 Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:21 sandro eprodrom: Making it a MUST would be hardening that requirement, which seems unneeded # 18:21 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that IIRC at the f2f we decided to drop the SHOULD for name, which should not affect any conformant implementations. the fallbackname did not have # 18:21 sandro tantek: What I recall from F2F, with one objection, was the drop the SHOULD from .name # 18:21 sandro .. having a fallback name, people were open to that, editor was supposed to provide proposal # 18:22 sandro .. regarding fallback name, Chris and I spoke, and I'd be okay adding something at-risk # 18:23 rhiaro That way of thinking about it makes it sound almost like it's a non-normative change, that's what I was looking for :) # 18:23 cwebber2 RESOLUTION: Return distinction between "user entered or otherwise significant name" and "text fallback" and shift SHOULD from meaningful name to text fallback. # 18:24 tantek ugh, the whole reason we renamed to "name" was because others using "meaningful name" were using that # 18:24 sandro cwebber2: main motive is avoid a new CR --- so make name be the fallback # 18:24 sandro cwebber2: But I like the name as the meaningful name # 18:25 sandro sandro: if it's an extension, then it doesn't need a new CR # 18:26 rhiaro AS2 is for life, not just for the charter period. # 18:26 sandro eprodrom: Yeah. My feeling here is ... the spec is forever, so let's try to do the right thing for the long term. # 18:27 sandro .. let's not have our short-term scheduling issue be the problem. # 18:27 tantek q+ to note that I did propose a way to potentially avoid a second CR at the f2f # 18:27 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:27 sandro eprodrom: so let's have .name be the meaningful name, and something else .depiction? as the fallback # 18:28 tantek however I have a counterproposal for avoiding a 2nd CR (I think) # 18:28 sandro .. sounds a bit like tempInteger but I see the point # 18:28 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:28 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:28 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek on the speaker queue # 18:28 Zakim sees cwebber, tantek, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue # 18:29 Zakim sees tantek, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue # 18:29 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note that I did propose a way to potentially avoid a second CR at the f2f # 18:29 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue # 18:29 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, sandro on the speaker queue # 18:29 sandro q+ to ask if you need fallbackName when there's a name # 18:30 sandro .. say consumers that need some kind of fallback name # 18:30 sandro .. and say publishers, if you don't provide a name, you SHOULD provide a plaintext .summary # 18:30 sandro .. In my experience, the situations where you don't provide a name # 18:31 sandro .. and consumers still want a something, my exoperience and indiewebcamp experience, is summary works well for that # 18:31 sandro .. eg a LIKE doesn't have a meaningful name, but it does have a summary which can be used in contexts that don't understand Like # 18:31 sandro .. it works in clients that don't understand this kind of reaction, but understand reactions in general # 18:31 tantek <tantek> +1 with use as "summary" for fallback text since that seems to work, and does not require adding a new term (thus does not require a new CR) # 18:32 sandro .. I'm advocating for this, that this doesn't need a new CR # 18:32 sandro .. would this break any existing implementations? # 18:32 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:32 sandro .. I'm trying to find a way to keep the funcationlity people want, in a way that folks have seen working # 18:33 sandro eprodrom: sounds like a solid proposal, I like it # 18:33 cwebber2 q+ to say it would be fine, but explain I think it'll still result in a new CR though # 18:33 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, cwebber on the speaker queue # 18:33 rhiaro q+ to ask if we'd have to kick html out of summary for this to work? # 18:33 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 18:33 tantek is guilty of putting multiple paragraphs in a "name" property # 18:34 sandro .. the name/title slot typically has max six words, but in some cases, the summary might be several sentences long. An Abstract or TL;DR type thing. # 18:34 eprodrom Did I just fall off the call, or did tantek? # 18:34 eprodrom I think it was me # 18:35 eprodrom I'm going to call back in either way, since I can't hear. # 18:35 sandro .. but in all the cases where there's a longer article, there's a name provided in practice. # 18:35 eprodrom tantek: would you mind chairing for 5 minutes while I reconnect? # 18:35 sandro .. When summary is longer, there tends to be a meaningful name # 18:35 sandro .. Also, it's possible for people to provide really long names anyway # 18:36 rhiaro If summary is long, the consumer knows they're allowed to truncate it, since it's sthe fallback # 18:36 sandro .. Maybe provide guidances, saying .name and .summary MIGHT be long # 18:36 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 18:36 Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 18:36 Zakim ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to ask about SHOULD / MUST of fallbackName # 18:36 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 18:37 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: in either case, whether we use fallbackName or .summary, is it a MUST or a SHOULD? # 18:37 sandro tantek: Yes, if there's no name provided, summary becomes a SHOULD. SHOULD is strong enough, doesn't need to be MUST, because we might get empty summary values. # 18:37 cwebber2 it's just fallback text, if someone doesn't have it, it's hot a *huge* deal # 18:38 eprodrom name -> summary -> "an object" # 18:38 sandro ben_thatmustbeme: If .name isn't present, the publisher SHOULD provide a .summary # 18:38 sandro tantek:Right, but we should also give guidance in case both are missing. # 18:38 sandro .. that's a possible thing in the real world. # 18:39 sandro sandro: The test suite should have an entry missing both\ # 18:39 Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue # 18:39 tantek eprodrom, I would be ok with something like that up to the consumer (localization etc.) # 18:39 Zakim cwebber, you wanted to say it would be fine, but explain I think it'll still result in a new CR though # 18:40 sandro cwebber2: I'm fine with .summary, and I'm against MUST, as we discussed in F2F # 18:40 sandro .. I want to raise a Devil's Advocate argument # 18:40 sandro .. if we move the SHOULD, that still might need a new CR # 18:41 sandro .. if BigBlueHat were here, he'd argue that SHOULD's aren't normative # 18:41 sandro tantek: It's not that SHOULD's arent normative, it's about new features, and breaking implementations. # 18:42 sandro .. so if implementations do something different, then you'd need a normative change in response # 18:42 rhiaro It means that most of my activities don't have summary.. # 18:42 sandro tantek: If we think this is compatible with implemnentations, it should be okay # 18:43 sandro eprodrom: No, we don't need to wait for James. He's aware of our schedule. # 18:43 tantek jasnell can raise an issue based on this conclusion if he wants and we can consider that if/when that happens # 18:43 sandro eprodrom: This is in the spirit of what we agreed at the F2F # 18:44 Zakim rhiaro, you wanted to ask if we'd have to kick html out of summary for this to work? # 18:44 sandro rhiaro: This all sounds good. I'm fine using .summary this way. Great to have it not considered a normative change. # 18:44 sandro sandro: name does not have markup, but summary does ? # 18:45 eprodrom PROPOSED: name -> MAY, summary -> SHOULD, add section on string representation of object # 18:45 tantek summary is a SHOULD *only* in the absence of name # 18:45 eprodrom PROPOSED: name -> MAY, summary -> SHOULD if no name, add section on string representation of object # 18:46 rhiaro Also there was that thing about keeping it required for Article ..? # 18:46 tantek and informative consumer guidance on what to do with too long of a name/summary or if both are empty # 18:46 tantek summary -> SHOULD be there and be plain text if no name # 18:46 sandro sandro: would be say something like: when you're using summary as a backup name, it's okay to strip out the markup. # 18:47 sandro sandro: I'm concerned stripping markup might change semantics # 18:48 rhiaro q+ to say I feel like cases where it might change the semantics are probably 'name' cases # 18:48 sandro sandro: I think we said name needs to work without markup, so fallback name does too # 18:48 tantek implementations of Atom etc. already drop markup from 'name' or 'summary' when displaying # 18:49 cwebber2 that doesn't mean that summary renders in the same way as name... # 18:49 rhiaro I think it's fine saying if publisher is using summary as a fallback, SHOULD NOT have markup # 18:49 sandro sandro: Tantek, you're saying it's well know, even if not in spec, that markup might be stripped from sumary # 18:49 cwebber2 -1 on taking markup out of summary, +0 on permitting stripping markup from summary (though depending on markup, that might not always be easy) # 18:50 tantek implementations already do it (consuming code removes markup from name / summary in Atom) # 18:50 tantek sandro I am still disconnected, attempting dialing # 18:50 wilkie the biggest dependency I've had in implementations is libxml which is a troublesome dependency to support on many machines. I only need it to strip HTML out, which I do 100% of the time. # 18:50 sandro eprodrom: consumer can do anything, so no point in saying they can strip markup # 18:50 rhiaro is going to write an as2 consumer that changes every word to waffles # 18:51 sandro .. maybe advice against markup in summary when used as fallback # 18:51 sandro -1 eprodrom consumers can do whatever they want # 18:51 wilkie will write an as2 producer that makes every key 'waffles' hopefully postel's law can keep up # 18:52 rhiaro "why is this on the agenda?" -> 50 minute discussion # 18:52 eprodrom PROPOSED: name -> MAY, plaintext summary -> SHOULD if no name, add section on string representation of object # 18:52 sandro tantek: Also informative guidance on both being too big or empty # 18:52 wilkie HTML in fields are good if I can just ignore them completely if I'm likely going to strip the HTML and can't rely on preserving the intended representation # 18:53 eprodrom PROPOSED: name -> MAY, summary -> SHOULD if no name, add section on string representation of object including informative guidance on name or summary being very long # 18:53 ben_thatmustbeme PROPOSED: change name to may, if no name, SHOULD provide a plaintext summary, add a sectino on string representation, add guidance to the fact that summary or name may be too long # 18:54 eprodrom PROPOSED: change name to may, if no name, SHOULD provide a plaintext summary, add a section on string representation, add guidance to the fact that summary or name may be too long # 18:54 tantek +1 ok with s/too/very, and ok adding guidance on if both name & summary are empty # 18:54 rhiaro This is just the text of the proposal, not what will go in the spec, it's okay ;P # 18:55 eprodrom RESOLVED: change name to may, if no name, SHOULD provide a plaintext summary, add a section on string representation, add guidance to the fact that summary or name may be too long # 18:55 cwebber2 suggests we all bike down to veggie galaxy, park our bikes in the bikeshed, and get some waffles KevinMarks2 joined the channel
# 18:57 sandro aaronpk: pubsub.rocks now has test tool for publishers and subscribers # 18:58 Loqi aaronpk has 67 karma in this channel (1137 overall) # 18:58 sandro aaronpk: next step is if you're building a hub # 18:59 Loqi aaronpk has 68 karma in this channel (1138 overall) # 18:59 sandro aaronpk: likely hub test tool will be done next week, but maybe not submitting results # 19:00 Zakim rhiaro, you wanted to note pubsub name change on wiki # 19:01 tantek going to be a close call, vote for your pubsub bikeshedding today!!! # 19:01 eprodrom trackbot, stop meeting # 19:01 sandro eprodrom: Thanks everyone, see everyone at F2F Thursday # 19:02 eprodrom trackbot, end meeting # 19:02 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been annbass, rhiaro, aaronpk, tsyesika, eprodrom, sandro, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek # 19:04 wilkie was late due to voting etc etc. did we decide to rename PuSH "VeggieGalaxy" ? # 19:09 eprodrom I'm leaning toward "TubShrub" # 19:10 eprodrom I guess an improvement would be making the number of words random between 2-4 # 19:26 aaronpk yes but talky.io starts breaking down once you have a bunch of participants # 19:26 csarven I really liked that.. the fact that it worked quite well. # 19:26 csarven and was just thinking if they had a screenshare that worked just like it, it'd be awesome. # 19:26 tantek too much dependency on a certain unnamed telcom provider to provide "discovery" :( tantek joined the channel
# 19:41 sandro ben_thatmustbeme, I have two rooms reserved 32-312 and 32-D407. Each are 12-14 people max. I'll take a look and pick between them. I could get a larger room until 4pm, but these days it's not set up with tables. # 19:42 sandro as I recall, 312 has windows to outside, and a board-room feel. 407 in a generic interior conference room. # 19:45 sandro I'll bring a fan or two to work, in case we have heat issues # 19:48 rhiaro (Tokyo is freezing. My plan for skipping winter this year has so far not come to fruition) tantek, KevinMarks and dan joined the channel
# 21:31 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed # 22:15 KjetilK rhiaro, what? Skipping the funniest season...? # 22:16 KjetilK Especially if you have kids, or you're a kid. :-) # 22:16 KjetilK We got 35 cm of snow the other day, so I spent most of the weekend sledding with the kids # 22:17 KjetilK Bruised my butt badly is I crashed into a tree, and then decided it would be more fun for everyone if I tumbled into the snow, so I threw myself over, but there was something under that snow that was hard... # 22:17 KjetilK big giggles, though :-) KevinMarks2 and KevinMarks joined the channel
ben_thatmustbeme Lost track of the time. I'll be a bit late
eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/08-social-irc
Loqi rhiaro: tantek left you a message 6 days, 18 hours ago: do you know how we (chairs / staff) can make blog posts here: https://www.w3.org/blog/ (as other WG chairs (including non-W3C-team people) seem to be able to) ?
trackbot Sorry, eprodrom, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
tantek tries https://pubsub.rocks/publisher on his site