#social 2016-11-18

2016-11-18 UTC
shepazu_, KevinMarks2 and jasnell joined the channel
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi yeah who invited you anyway Zakim
KevinMarks, timbl, wilkie, timbl_, jasnell, tantek, KevinMarks2, fabrixxm and Karli joined the channel
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csarven ---
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csarven I'd like to join a hangout (audio only is fine) live from my sofa.
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aaronpk we'll probably use the conference number again
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csarven is that a diff number than the weekly w3c telco number?
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aaronpk same
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csarven ok, thanks. Let me know when I can join.
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aaronpk will do. i think we said we're doing agenda scheduling at 9:30 (in 37 minutes)
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csarven I'll join in then.. with preference to take up LDN first :)
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rhiaro In searching for instructions on how to operate this conference room, I found http://archive.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/11/06/mit_sues_gehry_citing_leaks_in_300m_complex/
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rhiaro Woah! ben_thatmustbeme found the secret to operating the shades and projector screen, after we spent 10 minutes pushing every button in the room
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rhiaro hey eprodrom tantek you need to show up, we're talking about politics
jasnell and tantek joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme hello
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trackbot Sorry, rhiaro, I don't understand 'trackbot, please draft minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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rhiaro trackbot, please draft minutes
Zakim joined the channel
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rhiaro trackbot, make minutes
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trackbot Sorry, rhiaro, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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ben_thatmustbeme trackbot, draft minutes
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trackbot Sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I don't understand 'trackbot, draft minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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aaronpk trackbot, figure it out
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trackbot Sorry, aaronpk, I don't understand 'trackbot, figure it out'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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rhiaro RRSAgent, make minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-minutes.html rhiaro
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aaronpk csarven, we're on the conference bridge now
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csarven Are all hands on deck?
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aaronpk almost
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csarven goes to dig numbers
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tantek csarven, all hands we need for LDN :)
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sandro RRSAgent, pointer
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RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-irc#T15-09-03
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tantek trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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trackbot Date: 18 November 2016
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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Zakim ok, trackbot
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tantek present+
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aaronpk present+
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csarven digging diggg.. where is the number..
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rhiaro present+
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csarven present+
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aaronpk csarven, https://www.w3.org/2015/10/social-wg-telecon
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ben_thatmustbeme rrsagent, pointer
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RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-irc#T15-11-10
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek topic: LDN
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aaronpk tantek: open issue for LDN?
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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aaronpk csarven: we received one new editorial issue after we entered CR
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tantek https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues
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csarven https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues/60
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aaronpk rhiaro: there's one more open issue. we've updated the text already, but we're waiting for commenter. i don't think we need to do anything more on it though.
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csarven https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues/55 (open world assumption..)
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aaronpk ... and there's an ongoing philosophical discussion that doesn't affect the spec
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aaronpk csarven: it's quite interesting if you have nothing else to do
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aaronpk rhiaro: he's nitpicking about phrasing
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aaronpk tantek: is it normative?
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aaronpk rhiaro: no
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aaronpk tantek: amy and sarven, can you two agree on the text changes needed to resolve this and propose it to the group?
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aaronpk csarven: we've made a few commits to revise what henry was concerned about.
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... it's about the wording about the idea that don't take the claims in the notifications for granted
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aaronpk tantek: so you think you've completed commits that handle the issue as reported?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: this seems like a security consideration. if i'm tracking the state of an object, i may not want to accept notifications from an entity that doesn't control that object. i may not want to allow updates that take an object into an unexpected state that does not reflect the previous history of the object.
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aaronpk rhiaro: this is just in the intro to the security considerations section. we've already covered many ways for this, this is just the intro
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aaronpk eprodrom: if there are specific security considerations already covered, it makes no sense to argue this point and maybe take it out
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aaronpk tantek: can you drop a link to the proposed wording that hasn't been committed yet
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rhiaro https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues/55#issuecomment-257135287
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aaronpk csarven: we also have a sender verification section. let's say you have an access controlled way of writing notifications to an inbox. that alone doesn't address the validity of the statements.
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sandro RRSAgent, pointer?
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RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-irc#T15-21-30
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tantek PROPOSED: resolve LDN issue 55 with rhiaro's suggested text in https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues/55#issuecomment-257135287
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rhiaro +1
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aaronpk <aaronpk> +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro csarven?
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csarven +1
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aaronpk eprodrom: "taking precautions" seems open
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aaronpk rhiaro: that's expanded upon in the actual section
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rhiaro Just to have on record: I don't think henry's proposed alternative is appropriate because it ties more closely to LDP that necessary, and we don't need to talk about 'reputation'
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tantek RESOLVED: resolve LDN issue 55 with rhiaro's suggested text in https://github.com/w3c/ldn/issues/55#issuecomment-257135287
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eprodrom +1
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aaronpk tantek: great, everything else is editorial, i'll let you all handle those until you say you want input from the group
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csarven https://github.com/csarven/ldn-tests
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aaronpk ... next question, how is the test suite coming along?
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rhiaro https://linkedresearch.org/ldn/tests/
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aaronpk rhiaro: we've got tests for receivers, sender and consumer tests are not done yet
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csarven https://linkedresearch.org/ldn/tests/receiver
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aaronpk ... the tests need some UI love to tell when you've actually passed
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aaronpk tantek: do you have a rough idea of when they will be complete?
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aaronpk csarven: i think another week or so to polish it up
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aaronpk ... sender and receiver should be far simpler
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aaronpk ... we have a way of checking whether something's working or not. what remains for the receiver test is... there's a "report" section
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aaronpk ... you can enter a URL with an inbox and do a GET/POST/HEAD/OPTIONS and it will return the headers it receives and the body
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aaronpk ... there's a section on a report that shows the normative parts of the spec and a check or cross
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aaronpk ... that's the part that needs to be done
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cwebber2 present
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cwebber2 present+
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aaronpk tantek: next question is how are you coming with implementation reports?
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aaronpk rhiaro: we have an informal list, those are the people we'll go back to after the test suite is done
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aaronpk tantek: based on the informal list, what's your confidence level of the amount of the spec that's implemented
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aaronpk rhiaro: we have implementations of all roles that do everything
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csarven https://github.com/w3c/ldn/tree/master/implementations
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aaronpk ... i think we have at least two implementations but not sure how many of those are non-editor implementations
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aaronpk rhiaro: do we need implementation reports from generic LDP implemtations, since LDN is a subset of LDP?
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aaronpk tantek: i think it would still be useful to get reports from those, to test your assumption that LDN is actually working the way you expect with generic LDN
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tantek s/generic LDN/generic LDP
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aaronpk sandro: keep it clear that these implementations are not necessary for the process.
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aaronpk tantek: i think the value is getting feedback from the implementers
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aaronpk sandro: from a community perspective it's great, but from a process perspective it's gravy
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rhiaro likes gravy
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aaronpk notices a lot of food metaphors being used this morning
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aaronpk tantek: looking at the LDP rec it's from feb last year, so i'm guessing most of the tests in the report were run over a year ago. so having the test results for LDP will show that these implementations are still around.
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aaronpk ... so it's 90% frosting but making sure these implementations still exist is good to know
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aaronpk frosting... gravy...
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cwebber2 sounds healthy!
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aaronpk tantek: based on that, we should try to transition to PR in january
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aaronpk ... we'll try to time this with Micropub in january
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aaronpk csarven: one question about tests. the way we're going at it now, it's a form and you select some options and submit and it comes back with results.
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aaronpk ... the question is the difference between tests and validators
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aaronpk ... what we have now is kind of like the w3c html validator
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aaronpk ... kind of like how webmention has it, individual links to each test
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aaronpk ... we're not doing it that way, is the way we're doing it okay?
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aaronpk tantek: do you have instructions for someone running the test to say run it with these options and then these other options
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aaronpk rhiaro: we could have URLs that prefill the forms with different options, or just have a set of different forms
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aaronpk tantek: what does the implementation report template have?
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aaronpk rhiaro: the report template right now has a bunch of checkboxes. we can refine that to different combinations of things.
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aaronpk tantek: that would probably help people submitting reports
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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eprodrom q?
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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aaronpk eprodrom: of the implementations, what i don't see are any activitypub implementations which was one of the advantages of LDN we were hoping to have
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aaronpk rhiaro: my implementation is also activitypub
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aaronpk eprodrom: it may be important to raise this as we're talking about getting implementations of activitypub
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aaronpk rhiaro: a conformant sender would be sending activitypub if it found an activitystreams inbox
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cwebber2 I'm here
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cwebber2 lurking
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aaronpk tantek: i think we know what to do next for LDN then. when you feel like the test suite is complete, put it on the agenda for the next telcon
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ben_thatmustbeme feels like we need a photo of the birds from Finding Nemo saying "PubSub? SubPub?" "HubSub?"
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aaronpk ... we'll use that as a trigger to start requesting implementation reports
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aaronpk TOPIC: 10 minute break
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csarven is excited
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csarven (not about the break)
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tantek break for 10 min
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aaronpk 8 minutes until resume meeting
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2016-11-18 4:00pm GMT+0000 (#5938)
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tantek oops was scrolled and didn't see aaronpk had done it already
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Loqi resume meeting
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cwebber2 I emailed Jason Robinson about implementations
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cwebber2 he indicated on this thread that Diaspora was unlikely to implement AP but Friendica may: https://joindiaspora.com/posts/8251228
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aaronpk TOPIC: AS2
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aaronpk tantek: are there any open issues since last time we talked?
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aaronpk eprodrom: we call out the JSONLD context as non normative, but we would still like to make it useful
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aaronpk .. amy uses it to generate the document that lives at the namespace URL
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, i seem to get diaspora on most things, seems like they creaare mostly of the opinion "we aren't going to add it, but you are welcome to add a PR"
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ben_thatmustbeme s/get/get that from/
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aaronpk rhiaro: having extra things in it will probably not break things but having missing things might
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csarven Note to self: look at AS2 examples (the one that extends with OA, PROV that I wrote last year) and see if they are still okay (especially with the changes in OA)
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aaronpk eprodrom: we have two outstanding editorial issues, actually no we dont
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tantek https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues
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aaronpk ... we have one outstanding editorial...
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aaronpk ... about the relationship between link types and object types
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aaronpk ... there is a subtle difference between referencing an object and referencing a link to the object
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aaronpk ... james gave a good answer to it and asked him to include it in the document itself
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aaronpk ... it hasn't been updated so i think i'm going to do it myself
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aaronpk ... i think i understand the difference, it feels very subtle but i think i can use james' wording from the document and the examples he gave
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aaronpk eprodrom: we made a decision this summer about using markup in the name
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aaronpk ... as a group we made this decision that we weren't going to use markup. we asked for comments from the orgiinal commenter. there hasn't been discussion since august 4th.
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aaronpk ... i think it's reasonable to close it at this point
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aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/338
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aaronpk tantek: we had a joint socialwg i18n meeting at TPAC
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aaronpk ... we asked it to get minuted in our channel
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aaronpk ... did this come up?
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rhiaro https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/178
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aaronpk aaronpk: here's the link to the IRC chat from the meeting https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2016-09-22#t1474555160487000
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aaronpk eprodrom: from my POV we had a discussion and made a resolution to discuss it
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aaronpk tantek: okay, close it with a link to their issue
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tantek 354 was discussed here: https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2016-09-22#t1474557612462000
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tantek https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/354
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csarven eprodrom jasnell: Feel free to assign me to https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/376
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csarven I don't have the q key on my kb
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aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/354
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aaronpk eprodrom: in JSON-LD, you can specify the context property as either an object or as a URL
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aaronpk ... it is nice to be able to just have that single URL, and one of the ways we've sold the AS2 to the AS community is "don't worry about JSON-LD just drop in this property and you have JSON-LD"
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aaronpk ... the problem is the default language in JSON-LD is defined within this context object
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eprodrom "@context": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams"
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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eprodrom "@context": {"@id": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", "@language": "en"}
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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aaronpk ... it would require some additional complexity to change the language
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aaronpk ... but one of the selling points is we're going to make it easy to use it and now we've made it slightly harder
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aaronpk ... the change proposes making it a SHOULD instead of MAY
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: the assumption that if you give authors a SHOULD that they're going to pay any attention to is false
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aaronpk ... so richard is wrong about how authors behave when given directions like that
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aaronpk sandro: i think the examples are the important part
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aaronpk tantek: examples are far more effective than "should" language
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aaronpk sandro: i'm very concerned about the increased complexity. we're between a rock and a hard place.
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aaronpk tantek: it's something that noone currently implements
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aaronpk rhiaro: no other implementations support it, but we also only have english speaking implementations
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aaronpk tantek: this goes back to the larger point that the i18n group has yet to incubate or implement any localization in JSON
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aaronpk rhiaro: this is about how JSON-LD specifies how to do it, which is already implemented
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: so right now what we have is if you would like to specify the default language, you change the context from a single string to an object with a couple properties
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cwebber2 has feedback here
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: can activitystreams supply multiple context URLs for a bunch of languages?
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tantek ack cwebber
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#object-without-create
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Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub
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csarven has to be AFK
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aaronpk cwebber2: we added language to everything that has a name
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aaronpk cwebber2: bengo pointed out he got very confused
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cwebber2 {"@context": ["https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", {"@language": "en"}]}
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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cwebber2 {"@type": "Create",
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cwebber2 "object": {"@context": {"@language": "en"}}}
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cwebber2 "@context": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams",
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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aaronpk ... so we suddenly transformed the way the inner context worked
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aaronpk ... the object that used to be inside got shifted around. it no longer had a list within a map, it just became a map
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aaronpk ... and bengo said it was confusing and was some magic JSON-LD-foo
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aaronpk ... and I had only put it there because someone told me to, so I removed it
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aaronpk ... so having the language inside there can create some gnarly scenarios to ask from users
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aaronpk tantek: was this ever tested in JSON-LD itself?
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aaronpk cwebber2: i've never done anything like this in an actual implementation
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aaronpk tantek: is there any evidence that there are any actual implementations of JSON-LD that are doing anything with language in the way we are being asked?
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aaronpk cwebber2: i don't think we're going to be able to change the way AS2 does this by renegotiating with JSON-LD
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aaronpk tantek: i'm not suggesting we create our own solution. i'm asking this because putting in something that we think is solved because it's in a REC which if it turns out it's not solved is worse than not having it at all... because it's providing a false sense of having internationalization
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aaronpk ... i don't know how to resolve this except for asking i18n to point us to some actual JSON-LD producers and consumers
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cwebber2 q/
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cwebber2 q?
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cwebber2 q+
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tantek q?
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aaronpk eprodrom: i think there is a fundamental assumption here by the 118n group which is that each natural language proprety in a document should be explicitly marked up as the language it is, either by the default or specificlaly on the property
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rhiaro q+
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aaronpk ... there is a contradictory principle that it could be left out and understood from human world context (not @context)
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... the mechanisms we hve for doing explicit language markup seem to complicate our JSON documents
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aaronpk tantek: which alone isn't enough reason to not do them
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aaronpk eprodrom: one thing we can do is bite the bullet and say we need to add this as a SHOULD and update our examples
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme just looking at things quickly, found their http://json-ld.org/test-suite/ and http://json-ld.org/test-suite/reports/
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aaronpk eprodrom: one problem with the -fr @context URL is naive consumers would fail if they are doing exact string matching on the context
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tantek q+ to ask how are AS1 impls handling non-en langs e.g. Diaspora in Germany?
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Zakim sees cwebber, rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme is not going to go further than that
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q?
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Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 {"@type": "Note",
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cwebber2 ->
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cwebber2 "@language": "en"}
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sandro {
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sandro "name": "Martin created an image",
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sandro "type": "Create",
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sandro "@context": "https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/activitystreams-fr",
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sandro "actor": "http://www.test.example/martin",
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cwebber2 {"@type": "Create",
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sandro "object": "http://example.org/foo.jpg"
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sandro }
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cwebber2 "@context": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams",
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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cwebber2 "object": {"@type": "Note",
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aaronpk cwebber2: we do have an alternate way of doing @language in AS
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cwebber2 "@language": "en"}}
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cwebber2 {"@type": "Note",
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cwebber2 "@language": "en"}
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cwebber2 ->
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cwebber2 {"@type": "Create",
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cwebber2 "@context": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams",
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Loqi [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
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cwebber2 "object": {"@type": "Note",
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cwebber2 "@language": "en"}}
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/354
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees rhiaro, tantek on the speaker queue
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tantek ack rhiaro
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk rhiaro: so here's the thing
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aaronpk ... the way we support extensions or using any of the vocabulary is you have to use the context. so you can have the AS2 context in a string and then an object with a bunch of prefixes and more contexts
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aaronpk ... so if i'm publishing a bunch of data that uses AS and a bunch of other vocabularies, which I am, I have to list the context that way
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... a plain AS consumer i'm happy to ignore the vocabularies it doesn't understand
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aaronpk ... but if it doesn't understand context as an object then it's not going to recognize it in the first place
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aaronpk ... so in order to make AS and JSONLD play together at all, all consumers need to be able to understand context as an object, not only as a string
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aaronpk sandro: anyone using extensions it woudl not fall back
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aaronpk tantek: that was a decision last time this came up
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aaronpk eprodrom: are we okay with bad consumers that will error out? we're not okay with that
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aaronpk rhiaro: so if we have to support @context as an object then we can put @language there as well
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aaronpk ... so we don't need to put @language in all the examples because we can say that once
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aaronpk ... but they have to be able to understand the @context as an object
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: i'm going make a suggestion that might be controversial for our friends in i18n
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aaronpk ... we do have a specific language tag (und) undetermined. what we could use is sandro's cool hack for multiple contexts that define language
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aaronpk ... so that we can have single string contexts for each natural language
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aaronpk ... the base namespace could be "und"
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aaronpk ... that would be roughly the same as what we have now
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... it would be obeying the letter of the suggestion
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aaronpk rhiaro: but then consumers would have to string match against every language
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aaronpk sandro: we could say that the context is this string followed by a hyphen and a language tag
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aaronpk ... if every example in the spec there's this extra curly braces and @language then it makes all the examples look a lot more complicated
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aaronpk rhiaro: we want the examples to be simple, but we want to tell consumers to be prepared to consume an object as context
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eprodrom aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 70 karma in this channel (1142 overall)
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eprodrom You're a hero for scribing this
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aaronpk ... we need the majority of the examples to be simple, and then one section with the context being an object
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cwebber2 I agree that seeing the @context with an array does make it seem more complicated
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cwebber2 but
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aaronpk sandro: people making consumers are more likely to check against the test suite and read the spec
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cwebber2 I also think sandro's suggestion makes things complicated, based on my own implemntations
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aaronpk eprodrom: more likely simple consumers would do a string match
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aaronpk rhiaro: i think we should require consumers understand objects
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cwebber2 :<
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aaronpk eprodrom: consumers would do a string match and would notice that some percentage of what they were getting didn't need work with the string match and then they would do a regex match. then in a small number of cases they'd have an array thing and may or may not support that.
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wilkie you're making consumers more complex to make producers 'feel' less complex?
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cwebber2 hates all these solutions
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cwebber2 wilkie, yeah I think this makes things a lot more complex
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aaronpk rhiaro: they can not support extensions and drop all the terms and that's fine. but dropping any AS that includes extensions dropping the whole thing is a problem.
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wilkie does the HTML lang attribute make HTML feel too complex?
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aaronpk sandro: that means people to me people won't use extensions at all because a chunk of consumers will fail if the AS includes extensions
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cwebber2 q-
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 q+ to explain why sandro's suggestion is also complex, but suggest we just use @language in *some* examples.
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk is getting lost
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aaronpk eprodrom: what you're suggesting is probably to use context as an object in all our examples so consumers get used to seeing that
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sandro { @context: { @id: "{
#
sandro "@context": "https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/activitystreams-fr"} ... }
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aaronpk rhiaro: we're not telling publishers to publish an object, but we're telling consumers to expect an object
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sandro oops
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aaronpk eprodrom: we're in a weird space where "have to" is a difficult term to define
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aaronpk rhiaro: are consumers going to look at the examples in the spec or use the test suite?
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aaronpk eprodrom: they'll probably run it against the test suite and then see things in production
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wilkie the context should be the same regardless of what language you use so that JSON-LD generically understands two documents are comparable
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sandro { @context: { @id: "https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/activitystreams-fr" }
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sandro name: "..." }
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tantek sandro - has anyone suggested or tried this in the broader JSONLD / i18n communtiies?
#
tantek it sounds like experimentation in the context of a CR which I feel uncomfortable about
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aaronpk eprodrom: we have a base version that does not define language. we make N many language specific contexts you can pull in to use a single string context. and finally we have a MUST on consumers that they MUST handle a context as an object.
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cwebber2 tantek, I agree this feels like experimentation
#
cwebber2 has good reason to believe this is going tto be more complicated than it looks
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aaronpk tantek: i don't think we should be experimenting in CR
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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eprodrom "@context": "https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/activitystreams-fr"
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aaronpk rhiaro: if a publisher wants to use language, they'll be okay with using the extra step of the object with language
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aaronpk sandro: about 1/4 of the examples we put the @language in
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cwebber2 yes, I agree having about 1/4 of the examples with @langauge
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wilkie HTML lang isn't required. it defaults to 'unknown'. from a cursory glance, the HTML spec doesn't recommend it be there, instead it warns that absent 'lang' can produce unexpected results.
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aaronpk eprodrom: if we make language a SHOULD then we should have it in most of the examples
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cwebber2 I agree with SHOULD
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wilkie I agree with SHOULD also
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk tantek: the problem is history does not support "SHOULD"
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aaronpk ... you end up with lang="en" as the default
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aaronpk sandro: i thought the phrasing was "if you know the language you SHOULD put it there"
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aaronpk tantek: that is very different
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aaronpk eprodrom: that is very different
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: <general agreement>
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cwebber2 tantek, is that what you wanted to raise?
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk eprodrom: another possibility is to make a simpler way to define language
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eprodrom "language" : "en"
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aaronpk sandro: that's what chris was getting at
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eprodrom "@context": "...", "language": "en"
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: this is the tradeoff for people using JSON-LD processors or not
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tantek from r12a: "Could we either change MAY to SHOULD, or at least add a note to say that actually language information is quite important (since very few developers seem to recognise that)?"
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cwebber2 q?
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Zakim sees tantek, cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 :\
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aaronpk rhiaro: we can tell consumers there are three ways to identify an AS document
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aaronpk .. as a publisher, i want to know i can publish it in this object format and not have consumers fail
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim cwebber, you wanted to explain why sandro's suggestion is also complex, but suggest we just use @language in *some* examples.
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme can only think at this point, just convert the content to serialized json and string match for the context string
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cwebber2 manu.sporny.org/2016/json-ld-context-caching/
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aaronpk cwebber2: i think sandro's path, while i like it in an entertaining way, but would be a huge mess
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aaronpk ... i don't like resorting to string parsing as a shortcut either
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rhiaro +1 not string parsing
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aaronpk ... there were a couple suggestions that were good. if you wrote in a note that it's really important to do language things that's really easy
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aaronpk ... also 1/4 of the examples could include language and that'd be reasonable
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aaronpk ... to set the expectation that sometimes this happens
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aaronpk ... we're also not making it so that every example has this overhead of the language
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sandro +1 say "it's really important" and 1/4 of examples use it.
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tantek Aside: looks like JSON-LD test suite and reports did a bunch of explicit @language processing testing (syntactically) and that implementations in general "passed" in terms of transforming from input to output. http://json-ld.org/test-suite/reports/
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tantek ht: ben_thatmustbeme for finding that link
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Stream with a Note that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties
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Loqi [Gregg Kellogg] JSON-LD Implementation Report
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Stream with a Note that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties and use such markup for some examples
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sandro +1
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cwebber2 tantek, yeah expansion and compaction will do smart things that "understand" the @context
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rhiaro +1
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cwebber2 +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk tantek: you said something earlier i thought was useful. "if the producer knows the language"
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cwebber2 tantek, but I've still found combining two documents together to be a bit tricky, unless you do an expansion then compaction... I guess expansion then compaction is the "cleanest way"
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk sandro: we can add text that explicitly says we omitted language from the examples for brevity and to avoid people blindly copy/pasting the language in the example without changing it
shepazu joined the channel
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aaronpk rhiaro: we're concerned about people blindly following the examples
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aaronpk eprodrom: they primarily use the language mechanism built in to AS (map) which is easier and more obvious
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aaronpk rhiaro: it doesn't need to be all the examples, just some of them
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aaronpk ... what we're saying is you should do language somehow, but we can't include all possible ways so we include language in the simplest way to illustrate it
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: that makes sense, we don't include every tag in every example
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aaronpk tantek: evan it sounds like you have some proposed text
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Stream with a Note that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties and use such markup for some examples
#
tantek q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber2 +1
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sandro +1 with explanation of WHY it's not in every example
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sandro (to avoid hypocracy)
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rhiaro +1 with explanation of WHY it's not in every example
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wilkie +1 also with explanation so people don't accidentally think English is default
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rhiaro PROPOSED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Stream with a Note that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties and use such markup for some examples, and points out that it's not in every example because we want to avoid the copypaste EN everywhere thing
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cwebber2 +1
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sandro +1
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aaronpk <aaronpk> +1
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rhiaro +1
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wilkie +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +0 i don't think its really necessary
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ben_thatmustbeme changes his vote
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aaronpk sandro: our examples leave out language because we have a reason to leave them out
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aaronpk eprodrom: so maybe we just make it a should anyway
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aaronpk tantek: if you know the language
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tantek note as an example: Twitter acknowledges it doesn't "know " the language but offers "language detection" in its developer API: http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/twitter-adds-language-detection-and-tweet-filtering-to-api/
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aaronpk eprodrom: we're going to say you SHOULD explicitly mark it up, but we're not going to recommend a particular way of doing so
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aaronpk rhiaro: right, based on the most appropriate way of doing it
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sandro RRSAgent, pointer?
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RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-irc#T17-18-23
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eprodrom PROPOSED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Streams with a SHOULD that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties if you know the language, and use such markup for some examples, and points out that it's not in every example because we want to avoid the copypaste EN everywhere thing
#
cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro +1
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cwebber2 isn't voting on this again without good reason ;)
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aaronpk <aaronpk> +1
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sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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eprodrom +1
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tantek RESOLVED: Resolve issue #354 of Activity Streams with a SHOULD that points out the importance of explicitly marking up language of natural language properties if you know the language, and use such markup for some examples, and points out that it's not in every example because we want to avoid the copypaste EN everywhere thing
#
aaronpk tantek: i think this will communicate a positive response to richard which is great
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aaronpk ... i also want to acknowledge what evan said about people ignoring it, like on twitter, where they don't know
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cwebber2 btw
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cwebber2 I asked the i18n team to give guidance on this
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/LanguageDetection
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk cwebber2: just pointing out this link. when the i18n team asked us to add SHOULD to activitypub, i said this sounds great but realistically i don't know the language. i asked them to produce a document so that we can link to it, so they started this
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aaronpk ... here's some guidance on how to figure out what language to apply
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aaronpk tantek: if they publish this as a note i'd be okay, but i don't feel comfortable referencing a random page on their wiki
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aaronpk ... chris if you want to reference this page, i encourage you to reach out to them and request they publish it as a NOTE
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aaronpk cwebber2: i can do that
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro I would like to point out that I have a multilingual blog post now http://rhiaro.co.uk/2016/11/decentralising-social-tokyo (half English half Japanese)
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aaronpk eprodrom: this does mean our examples will have a warning on the validator
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aaronpk rhiaro: that's fine, because we have a good reason
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aaronpk sandro: maybe we add a checkbox to the validator asking whether you know the language
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aaronpk rhiaro: an extra checkbox on the validator saying explicitly to validate language stuff would be good
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tantek FYI: the related i18n issue was closed 23 hours ago: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/205
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk TOPIC: LUNCH
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cwebber2 I'm on the phone
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cwebber2 what's going on
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tantek we are adjourned until 14:00 EST for lunch
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cwebber2 aaronpk, ok what issues are we working on?
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cwebber2 aaronpk, making a proposal?
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cwebber2 aaronpk, wasn't totally clear to me
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cwebber2 aaronpk, and do you want to do so now, or in an hour?
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aaronpk sorry hi
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aaronpk so we need to write up a description of the community group in order for the group to propose creating it
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aaronpk starting this here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg
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cwebber2 microwaving soup leftovers
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cwebber2 aaronpk: could we take 20 minutes to eat, then regroup?
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aaronpk sure
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cwebber2 aaronpk: cool.
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aaronpk say something on the phone when you're back, i'm stepping away
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cwebber2 kk
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tantek julien departed ~noon (for the minutes)
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sandro https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/11/17/facebook-fake-news-writer-i-think-donald-trump-is-in-the-white-house-because-of-me/?tid=sm_fb
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cwebber2 hi
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aaronpk waves
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'm back. Dialing back in now
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cwebber2 aaronpk: would you prefer to handle this over voice or irc?
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aaronpk there's a whole discussion happening here so maybe irc?
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cwebber2 sounds good to me
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aaronpk actually i'll put on headphones
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aaronpk oh i got disconnected too, one sec
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cwebber2 ok!
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aaronpk so i started this https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg
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cwebber2 good start :)
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aaronpk we really just need a little description for the form to submit here https://www.w3.org/community/groups/propose_cg/
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Loqi You must be logged in to propose a group or ( Request a W3C account ). Once you are logged in, you will provide the name of the group, a short description, and a short name. The shortname is used in various places (such as automatically generated U...
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aaronpk but also need to agree on the "ground rules" for the group especially around communication methods
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cwebber2 so I think it would be nice to use gitlab as communication, because it supports afaict pretty much every github feature and *might* end up federated
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cwebber2 we can just use the ironic mega-silo for now
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aaronpk yeah i agree gitlab is probably the best bet, but i'm concerned about it for two reasons
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aaronpk 1) it doesn't actually federate so it's kind of an aspirational use of gitlab until it actually does
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Loqi that doesn't make sense
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cwebber2 shh Loqi
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aaronpk 2) it means we're on our own little island whereas on github at least everyone already has an account and there's good cross-linking of issues and stuff with other repos we'll be referencing
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rhiaro has more important things on her timeline right now https://twitter.com/Zaninel/status/799080966128025616
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Loqi [@Zaninel] Millions of dollars in engineering has led us to this point... https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/799080862113480704/pu/img/FwQMKwmV4RQPhHkf.jpg
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aaronpk in an ideal world, this issue tracker would just be an aggregator and i would be posting comments from my own software (e.g. my own gitlab instance) and they'd just be aggregated at this group's
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aaronpk but in the mean time .... :)
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cwebber2 re: 1) https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/4013
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aaronpk yeah, it doesn't even have a proposed solution yet right? also that's just about pull requests, not about issues
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cwebber2 right
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cwebber2 aaronpk: the other side of things is that I know some people who won't use github because it requires proprietary javascript, and that's a no-go for them
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/TNG_S8
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aaronpk i'd love to be able to demonstrate federated issue tracking
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cwebber2 so gitlab is not ideal
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cwebber2 but I think it might be a bit beter
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cwebber2 better
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cwebber2 there's tradeoffs for sure; I hear you on it's more of an island
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cwebber2 though, in theory github users can log in with their github accounts
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cwebber2 so it's not so bad
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cwebber2 but they won't get notifications from one notification UI
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aaronpk gitlab uses omniauth and i'd love to be able to pull in the indieauth gem for it
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aaronpk that way i don't even need a separate gitlab identity
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cwebber2 that'd be cool
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cwebber2 so, aside from github vs gitlab
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tantek can you file an issue for them to pull it in?
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aaronpk actually i want to update that gem to do the auth server discovery itself rather than delegate that to indieauth.com first
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cwebber2 would also be good to discuss scope of what we intend to accomplish. the current description on that page is pretty good, though
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cwebber2 aaronpk, something that doesn't seem to be described, but I want to continue
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cwebber2 is related things to make the federated web more usable, like spam filtering / anti-abuse tools
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aaronpk there's not much in that description, just half a sentence pulled from our current charter :)
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cwebber2 aaronpk, I assume the IG will be a good fit for that?
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aaronpk s/IG/CG
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cwebber2 right CG
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cwebber2 oops
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aaronpk I *think* we can do whatever we want in the CG?
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro https://twitter.com/BatLabels
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cwebber2 aaronpk: just making sure you and I agree on what's good :)
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aaronpk yeah i'd like to be able to work on things like that too :)
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cwebber2 so we're basically thinking vocabularies and protocols to support the distributed / federated social web, and surrounding technologies that "support" them (such as spam filtering and anti-abuse tooling)
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aaronpk that works
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aaronpk go ahead and add that to the page?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: cool, doing so
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro wow, twitter suggests great other feeds too
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro https://twitter.com/RikerGoogling
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/worfemail
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cwebber2 aaronpk: updated description, refresh
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/PicardTips
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk so the group will get a wiki on w3.org by default, do we want to use that?
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I think we might as well
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cwebber2 aaronpk: the socialwg has used a wiki to good effect mostly
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aaronpk yeah seems like it
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ben_thatmustbeme http://scigen.csail.mit.edu/scicache/460/scimakelatex.19006.Ben+Roberts.html
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so I suggest we use gitlab, but yes, since it's not federated, use gitlab.com. It'll have some tradeoffs, but given the work we're doing I think it's worth it, and it might allow some users in related spaces to participate who wouldn't on github
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aaronpk oh gosh gtilab.com??
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cwebber2 gitlab.com
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cwebber2 not gtilab.com, I don't know what that is
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aaronpk lol oops typo
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aaronpk i think i am actually more opposed to using gitlab.com compared to github.com
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ok, do you have an alternative?
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cwebber2 http://www.gtilab.com/ appears to have something to do with Mattel and Hasbro
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aaronpk self-hosted gitlab?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://scigen.csail.mit.edu/scicache/827/scimakelatex.30173.Benjamin+Roberts.Tantek+elik.Amy+Guy.Aaron+Parecki.html
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cwebber2 aaronpk: I'm ok with that, though I don't volunteer to host it :)
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cwebber2 needs to overhaul current hosting setup
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme "5.2 Dogfooding Our Heuristic" ?
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aaronpk let me check what the recommended server stats are for it
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk thats amazing
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cwebber2 ooh I like that it uses capital-S Scheme
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cwebber2 scheme based expert system ;)
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cwebber2 1980s MIT classic ;)
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aaronpk wow they want 4gb ram free
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aaronpk know anyone who could sponsor hosting this server? ;-)
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ping mattl :)
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aaronpk ha oh yeah
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cwebber2 aaronpk, I believe there's https://git.gnu.io/explore/projects which I think mattl got some gitlab people to sponsor/maintain
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cwebber2 but I don't know much about it or how that maintenance is done.
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aaronpk well i'm happy to run the server cause i already run the indieweb server and more for my own sites
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cwebber2 aaronpk: ok!
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cwebber2 aaronpk: so I say we still resolve at this time to do something like
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mattl aaronpk: i can get you a server
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cwebber2 oh or there we go
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aaronpk \o/
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aaronpk i don't even need a big one, just a 4gb VPS is enough
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mattl yup. we can figure it out next week
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aaronpk that'd be awesome
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aaronpk how would you describe our group's use of the wiki?
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tantek conclusions
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tantek everything besides discussions
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aaronpk cwebber2, can you hear us? i switched back to the speakerphone
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cwebber2 hi
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cwebber2 I need to dial back in, one se
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cwebber2 c
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cwebber2 whoa
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cwebber2 sounds like a room full of robots
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aaronpk i'm gonna call back in
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cwebber2 kk
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aaronpk i may have confused it by switching from headphoens to speakerphone
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cwebber2 sounds better now
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wilkie I hear it
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rhiaro The other thing is the bus factor of aaronpk being in charge of everything
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rhiaro I think we just need another route clearly documented for them to participate
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rhiaro so they're not dismissed altogether
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tantek is IRC still not good enough as a start?
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rhiaro hey cwebber2 what license should my software be
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cwebber2 rhiaro, that depends on what you're writing; I think https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html is a pretty nice guide
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rhiaro thanks!
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cwebber2 rhiaro: for clarity, I'm using Apache v2 for ActiviPy (which is a library only), MediaGoblin is AGPLv3, but for newer server applications, especially ones that are both server + client, I tend to just use GPLv3+ (though AGPL is still a good choice)
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cwebber2 rhiaro: but that page probably says better than I will here
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tantek https://wicg.io/
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aaronpk ah right we already have this github org: https://github.com/w3c-social
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aaronpk we'll make a new github org for this
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aaronpk cwebber2, check out the updated page https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg
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cwebber2 aaronpk: looks good
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cwebber2 aaronpk: also can we agree that we don't try to pronounce "swicg" as one word
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aaronpk swickguh
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cwebber2 it sounds a bit like retching
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aaronpk i think the "g" is silent
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tantek resume meeting postponed til 14:15
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cwebber2 swick-gee is not bad
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tantek swi-kig
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aaronpk is that a hard or soft G
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tantek because WICG is pronounced wi-kig
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tantek hard
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tantek like keg
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cwebber2 swi-kig is ok
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cwebber2 (factoid: did you know that python's WSGI protocol is supposed to be prounounded "whiskey"??)
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aaronpk (added a sentence about not using github.com)
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aaronpk brb
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tantek not using or not having to use?
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wilkie that's unacceptable. soft-g, hard-g and now g-that-sounds-like-k
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aaronpk (if you don't want to use)
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cwebber2 I think we're good
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: SWICG
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csarven swicg comes a bit close to SWIG. Semantic Web Interest Group.
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csarven And that had been around forever
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eprodrom SOC-CG
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csarven Has
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ben_thatmustbeme <discussion of other group names>
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eprodrom What about WebSub?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i don't want to derail this with another long round of choosing a name for something
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rhiaro SWUB
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csarven Do we need a Google docs for this? Like for push
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: AnnB proposed Social Web Incubator Community Group.
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csarven (not a real suggestion)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: which paralells Web Incubator Group
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the "Incubator" seems bizarre to me
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tantek s/Group/Community Group wicg..io
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tantek s/..io/.io
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: anyway... i did not plan on talking about the name, i planned to share the description that cwebber2 and I came up with, its not a charter length description, its what shows up on the group page and the list of all groups
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aaronpk "The Social Web Incubator Community Group is to continue and extend the work of development of vocabularies and protocols to support the distributed / federated social web, as well as "supporting" technologies (such as anti-abuse and anti-spam tooling suitable for a federated network). This group continues the work of the W3C Social Web Working Group."
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i would like feedback on if this is clear
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: most of that is from our charter
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: "the work of development" can just be "development", can get rid of the scare quotes
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: related technologies
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: "tooling" is an interesting word there
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cwebber2 +1 techniques
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: techniques
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: the rest sounds great
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: the last sentence about 'continues the work of' is that appropriate?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: seems fine to me
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tantek q+ to say s/for a federated network/for the open web
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 agreed
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: can i throw a couple of other things in here, to the extent that we have registries, like the namespaces for as2, can we add that in there
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i read that as being in there, but we can add that in there
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we need that as part of the summary?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: the first post will be a longer summary of the group
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tantek q+ to also make it clear about incubating
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: who is going to update erata for the specs? thats something the CG should handle
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the group can't publish anything normative, but they can update the list of erata
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i don't know if we need to call them out, but those are definitely two important things for the CG to manager
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ben_thatmustbeme s/manager/manage/
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to say s/for a federated network/for the open web and to also make it clear about incubating
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the phrase "suitable for ..." i was saying "suitable for the federated web"
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ben_thatmustbeme ... to keep other types of federated network work out of the group
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ben_thatmustbeme s/federated web/open web/
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i specifically say open web to set the bar high here
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the summary should clearly call out the method of incubation
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we will only have during the period of the extension that we presumably get, to have a WG, whereas the webWG has one
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tantek e.g. https://wicg.github.io/admin/charter.html
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ben_thatmustbeme ... so i want to explicitly call that out
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think there is a lot from this page that i find is very useful
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we need a charter? I don't think so
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i don't think so
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'm not saying you should copy that charter, but its a good place to mine from
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i'm a little teapot, short and stout
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think that middle paragraph that you cited is a pretty good one
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and the key thing is that its not saying what group its going to, but if they have enough prototypes they can use that to propose a new working group
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sandro s/sandro: i'm a little teapot, short and stout//
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ben_thatmustbeme s/sandro: I'm a little teapot, short and stout//
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: does the description look good?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: would you consider putting formats in place of vocabularies?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i can add formats
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aaronpk added formats
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: for participation i would say the same requirements from the wicg charter
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ben_thatmustbeme ... where you have to sign this license agreement
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the bit about maintaining the namespace, thats beside the point, its co-ordinating extensions
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cwebber2 q+
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... traditionally extensions use different namespaces
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think that from my perspective, if i were trying to track down whose job it is to update that namespace
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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tantek ack cwebber
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: hopefully that would be in the namespace, its a rule that every page on w3.org is signed
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ben_thatmustbeme ... it says editor, amy guy at the top
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: there was a review process for joining this group, is there one for this group
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there is no such requirements for community groups
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: as i remember joining the group requires you to sign this stuff automatically
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the one surprising thing there is that if you work for a w3c member, your AC rep has to review it, but the system does it
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ben_thatmustbeme ... public can easily join, but member organizations without going through their company first
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... its just surprising
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: also in participation, we haven't had a history of posting things on a blog for this group, so i'm not sure that a claim that we would do that in the future is something we should promise. if you want to say that we MAY..
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i wanted to make sure to make it clear that you would not expect to see discussion on the blog
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: so maybe put that as a catch all absolutely last
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ben_thatmustbeme ... and then after the 'the groups wiki is used for documenting conclusions' i have found those wikis incredibly dead
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i would suggest we instead use the w3c's wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: why is that bad?
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ben_thatmustbeme ... because they have to be in the CG?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: you get less people randomly joining in and making editing your wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: is this for patent issues?
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aaronpk wait i didn't say that
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: if your TRs are on your wiki, as you used to do...
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tantek e.g. https://www.w3.org/wiki/Swicg
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think they raised the bar on the wiki, where you have to be in a group to edit the wiki
jasnell joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk please feel free to correct it
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: woah, w3c says it requires member access, but you (aaronpk) aren't a member
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: did you register as a swicg org on github?
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ben_thatmustbeme s/aaronpk: is this for patent issues?//
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ben_thatmustbeme me aaronpk that was out of context in that case, removed from logs
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: in order for me to submit this, we do need to have a name. Are there any serious objections to the current name?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: so swikig is how its pronounced? i don't see a lot of incubation in that description
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats why i asked for it up front in the description
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i'm okay with it
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tantek PROPOSED: create the Social Web Incubator Community Group (SWICG) with description and participation as noted https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg with aaronpk and cwebber as co-chairs
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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cwebber2 +1
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
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aaronpk +1
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sandro +1
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tantek RESOLVED: create the Social Web Incubator Community Group (SWICG) with description and participation as noted https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/swicg with aaronpk and cwebber as co-chairs
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KevinMarks Bait and Swicg
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KevinMarks +1
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: he's just being goofy
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: he's being Kevin
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wilkie +1
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eprodrom ha ha
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2016/11/18/proposed-group-social-web-incubator-community-group/
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/#swicg
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Loqi This is the list of proposed Community and Business Groups. To express support for a group, you must have a W3C account. Once a group has sufficient support (five supporters), W3C announces its creation, lists it on the current groups page, and peopl...
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/community/swicg/
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aaronpk we're live!
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cwebber2 should I hit join on that or am I added as a chair and that happens automatically?
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cwebber2 I'm trying to figure this out, hold on
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, you need to join
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cwebber2 "I confirm that I have a significant employment relationship with GNU MediaGoblin (If incorrect update affiliation first) "
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cwebber2 not super sure if GNU MediaGoblin really counts as significant employment right now
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cwebber2 but I guess
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csarven wait.. you read agreements/TOS/license/patents warnings? Who are you?
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csarven I see checkboxes, I'm like.. I got this.
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cwebber2 csarven: haha
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Loqi rofl
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cwebber2 csarven, I joined a company once and laid out a list of things I wanted confirmation on from the employee handbook
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cwebber2 and they were like "huh, I think you're the first one who read it"
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cwebber2 but I was told that reading the handbook was the first thing I was supposed to do!
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aaronpk cwebber2, once you join i will make you a chair
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cwebber2 I did join!
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cwebber2 "Your request to join the group with only individual commitments has been sent for review to the W3C Staff. You will be notified by email when your request is approved or denied."
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cwebber2 should I have said as my "employer"? :P
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cwebber2 with GNU MediaGoblin only remotely sort of being my employer
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPC: AS2 non-spec issues
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: AS2 non-spec issues
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: before we go to test suite, we have closed 10 issues, they are updated in the ED, the most important is the issue around name and summary from last week, so we push them to the ... whats the next step?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: are there normative changes?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: this was a change to a SHOULD, (reference previous resolution)
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tantek stubbed: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Swicg
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: do we think the language thing effects implementations?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: thats a publisher requirement, isn't it?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: the syntax is the same
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: wasn't it true that you could have a conformant reader, that just looks for the string
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: can we capture that as an issue? thats orthoganal to what we just resolved
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: you could have made a conformant reader before but doesn't now right?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we did have examples before that had the object format for context
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we didn't specify that you don't blow up
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: so is this about just making it explicit? or do we not need to do anything? how about I open an issue and we can discuss it there.
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: even to call out all the places where its like that in examples
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: given that we have an example in the spec, its not a breaking change, it was clearly our intent
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we don't need a new transition call, but we need a new CR
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i'm going to confirm that its 4-weeks
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we are adding 2 SHOULDs, they probably will not break any implementations
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: if those issues get in to ED, and those get circulated to all implementations, that may be good enough to not need a new CR
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and explicitly call them out as normative changes
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: they aren't
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ben_thatmustbeme ... they match examples in the spec now
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: okay, they are clarifications that effect normative text, we should call that out as seperate from editorial changes, we should be up front about that
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i agree we should be up front about it, but there are many editorial changes in normative text
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i don't want it buried in editorial changes, put them as seperate 'important clarifications'
KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: can we fix change log to link to previous version's change log
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: so it sounds like its good to not publish a new version yet
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i think it would be good to get these changes formally in the CR version if we are going to use those 4 weeks anyway, and its the right thing to do
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: evan, what would you like to do next?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: lets discuss test suite
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ben_thatmustbeme ... a couple of things happened, we have updated changes that match changes we made. such as using https context URL, and the name issues
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cwebber2 huh?
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eprodrom https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/351
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: what? https context URLs?? there was a whole blog post on why we don't do that. HSTS solves that anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme ... which string are they supposed to be looking for if they are using just string matching?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: what i'd like to do is while you read that over, we continue talking about test documents
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ben_thatmustbeme ... updated the test docs to match the current state of the spec. second the validator, there are outstanding issues on the validator, nothing that can't be fixed but they haven't been done yet
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tantek related: https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/347
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: #351 seems fine, the namespace didn't change, the context changed
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tantek related: https://github.com/IIIF/iiif.io/issues/604
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: but its inconsistant with annotations
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: can we deal with this next?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we have outstanding issues on the validator, i'm not sure what our process is for that. Do we need to have no issues on the validator? Most of them are around loosing the validator.
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i have issues of validating because of ...
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: yes, but thats just a matter of how to get the AS2 on to the stream, if you paste it in, it still validates
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: there are certainly things to improve, but does this stop us from getting to PR?
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: it seems harmful to me asking people to use the test suite and it doesn't work correctly
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: is it blocking people from implementation reports?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: what i'd like to do is go through these and mark them as blocking or not blocking. my goal is to have no issues, but get blocking ones out of the way first, then non-blocking ones
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm going to give that to myself as a task
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ben_thatmustbeme ... as far as implementation reports go, right now we have 4 implementation reports for AS2, 1 implementation report that we are waiting for
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i expect csarven will submit one as well
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think we'll land somewhere between 10 and 12 implementation reports before we are done
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: and how many are updates from AS1?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i know of 2 that i think are
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: how many are besides the editors?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: right now none are from me or james
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: how many outside the group?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: how many are from outside the group?
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ben_thatmustbeme s/eprodrom: how many are from outside the group?//
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: only one is from outside the group
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is it fair to make the validator to be an implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i don't feel like the validator is a valid implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i feel like AS2 its more valid to use it, but we might as well err on the side of not including it
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i will do an implementation report for the validator, but if there is an question, we'll remove it
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we have a lot of features that are not implemented at all
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ben_thatmustbeme ... every part of the vocab is a feature thats at risk, except for a very small core
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: are they literally at risk?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we did, we had a long discussion about that
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: are there any non-at-risk features that have only 0 or 1 implementations?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think not
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we have a summary of them?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: thats probably my next task
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: with the required features first, then at-risk after that
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if i was going to do an estimate, they are mostly the core-types and their properties, as well as the activtypub parts
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ben_thatmustbeme ... that will probably put us in the area of 5 or so extension
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think that we may get down to a small enough vocab document that we question why we have a seperate vocab document
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: so if i implement it a week after REC, its referenced all from the rec, and people can still use it, there is not a big loss if we cut things from the spec
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ben_thatmustbeme ... thats the impression that i get
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: it kind of matters of where you go for documentation
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i really want the extensions to be highlighted
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ben_thatmustbeme ... does the spec link to an extensions page?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we do not have anything that says "look here" i don't know where that would be
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: we could just say the namespace document, the downside is 6-months from now there will be no w3c staff member paying attention to that
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: isn't that what the CG is there for?
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tantek activitystrea.ms source: https://github.com/activitystreams/website
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: who has control of activitystrea.ms?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i might, i know that james does
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ben_thatmustbeme s/james/jasnell/
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: going back to implementation reports. I think that we have a couple we would still like to see.
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i need to work on a summary table, but let me see if i can say this correctly
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cwebber2 they will at least *use* activitystreams implementations
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ben_thatmustbeme ... activitypub implementations will be activitystreams implementations as well
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: if we wait for those implementations, would we have more properties exit CR?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: yes
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think we should seriously consider that, its a bit of a delay
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i have no complaint with that, i think it would be a better spec with us waiting for more activitypub implementations
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that would buy you a lot of time for CR changes
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ben_thatmustbeme ... just another considerations
KevinMarks and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
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cwebber2 ok everyone
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cwebber2 I need to leave
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cwebber2 is there anything you need me for last minute?
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: back to one thing, if the vocab gets short enough, is it worth us merging the two documents?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: the core is very structural, and the vocabulary is much more focused toward the social domain?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: can we wait and see?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we have 1 test suite, 1 validator ..
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: its more been easier logically
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: would we need to do a new CR?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i have no idea
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: its just editorial really
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ben_thatmustbeme ... you just publish a tombstone
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: you don't redirect?
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ben_thatmustbeme ... its worth it for future readers of the spec, it will help implementations
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i would want the short names to redirect too
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: well TRs don't redirect, its a symbolic link, its sort of the normal flow so in this case you actually would want to do a redirect
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there are some
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: on another issue, the name / summary issue
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tantek e.g. w3.org/TR/CSS2 shows CSS 2.1
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: those have been changed in the ED (gives examples)
KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i've given myself a task to fix the ones that sound like they were auto-generated to sound like they were created more by a human being
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think thats all i have to say about AS2
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we have 6 issues that were opened today
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ben_thatmustbeme ... from amy and csarven
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: and some from me
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we want to spend time disucssing the 1 normative issue, #377
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tantek https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/377
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csarven I'll have a PR ready in the next minutes
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ben_thatmustbeme ... this is amy's issues with is seperate from the language issue
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i think we resolved that, but we should make it explicit
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: and we need tests for that
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eprodrom http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/core/#jsonld
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Loqi [James M Snell] Activity Streams 2.0
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: (quotes doc)
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we could have an implementer's note here that the value of the context property could be a string, object, or array
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ben_thatmustbeme (after some discussion)
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: I'd be fine saying there are only these 3 ways to review it
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: my only concern is there are other versions that could be generated by JSON-LD libraries
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: before we publish that in a CR, lets try to get some review of that by a JSON-LD expert
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ben_thatmustbeme (discussion of exact wording)
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: (updating issue with suggested wording)
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csarven https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/pull/381 should be o-kay
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i'm comfortable with that
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: does that resolve it for you amy?
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: yes
KevinMarks joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that brings us back to just editorial
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ben_thatmustbeme ... given that we are talking about waiting more than 4 weeks, i think its better that we republish a new CR
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: do we need a new call for that?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: as long as there are no normative changes
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: but thats manual still i believe and we need to do a group telcon to resolve that update
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: are we having a meeting on tuesday?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: its scheduled right now
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we typically don't do them right after a F2F
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: we just skipped one before this
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we were planning on reviewing pubsub edits
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: we'll have enough to work on then, its worth meeting
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we're completed for AS2, i was going to have an update of PTD, but i wasn't able to get done what i wanted
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is it reasonable to hold off
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: what about name for pubsub?
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csarven SoftHub?
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tantek Topic: PubSub renaming
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rhiaro csarven NO STOP
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tantek choices: WebFollow WebSub WebSubscribe
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i'm for WebSub
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csarven WebSub sounds good.
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wilkie https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/push-name
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: my thought is the editor who is still here picks his favorite, then we +1 / -1 on that
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ben_thatmustbeme ... and if that doesn't work, we go to the next
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i know juliens preference on this, and i now agree with it
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: which is
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: WebSub
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sandro PROPOSED: Rename pubsubhubbub to websub
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aaronpk WebSub specifically
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ben_thatmustbeme ... mainly WebSub and not WebSubscribe because of the similarity to PubSubHubbub
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csarven Long name is what? WebSubscribeulator?
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sandro aaronpk: this is my first choice, and I believe Julien's
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csarven notes that timbl is in the channel.. oops
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wilkie that sounds good actually. easy to search.
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sandro aaronpk: with WebFollow being available later for the user-facing feature, like Julian's Follow feature
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we have any non-native speakers that can confirm the pronouncability of it?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i believe phonetically its fine
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: julien was ok with it and he's a non-native speaker
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rhiaro s/Julian/Julien
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sandro PROPOSED: Rename pubsubhubbub to websub
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eprodrom +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro +1
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sandro +1
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wilkie +1
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme>+1
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aaronpk +1
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aaronpk PROPOSED: Rename PubSubHubbub to WebSub, and move the shortname pubsub to websub
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rhiaro +1
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eprodrom +1
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csarven +1
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sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme>+1
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wilkie +1
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rhiaro +9000
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csarven There is no company with that name right?
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tantek RESOLVED: Rename PubSubHubbub to WebSub, and move the shortname pubsub to websub
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ben_thatmustbeme \o/
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aaronpk there are surprisingly few search results for websub in general
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aaronpk "About 78,700 results"
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: the only other thing on the agenda was SWP
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eprodrom csarven: https://www.google.com/search?q=websub
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: SWP
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i have not had a chance to work on it recently
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ben_thatmustbeme ... can bring it up next meeting
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ben_thatmustbeme TOPIC: rechartering
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csarven whois websub.org
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we have already agreed to request an extension, which we believe we will get
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ben_thatmustbeme ... putting that in our extension request for 1 to 2+ months with one outlier
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: there is a lot to consider for our recharter
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ben_thatmustbeme .. the recharter would start in may
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i think we should ask for 6 months to keep it simple
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that buys us additional runway for if something comes up in PR
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do we feel that it is good?
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tantek PROPOSED: Request 6 month extension to take our drafts to REC, with plans already to take Micropub to PR in January, AS2 & ActivityPub to PR in February, WebSub (formerly PubSub) to PR in April; no f2f meetings expected, monthly telcons.
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csarven 6 months sounds good/safe. We probably only need 3 (just pulling that out of thin air). If we finish early, we go for lunch early.
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sandro csarven, yes, I told the group I've owned websub.org for ages, and I'm happy to hand it over to whoever's acting for the group on this.
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
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rhiaro +1
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aaronpk +1
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sandro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: and you are available to chair in that time as well correct eprodrom?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: yes
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eprodrom +1
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: whats the CGs work in that time?
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csarven +1
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: everything outside of our specs, building extensions, bringing people in
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tantek RESOLVED: Request 6 month extension to take our drafts to REC, with plans already to take Micropub to PR in January, AS2 & ActivityPub to PR in February, WebSub (formerly PubSub) to PR in April; no f2f meetings expected, monthly telcons.
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csarven Should LDN be in that PROPOSAL?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: that comes back to your rechartering question, if we see a lot of companies that are w3c members or are potential members
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tantek PROPOSED: equest 6 month extension to take our drafts to REC, with plans already to take Micropub to PR in January, LDN & AS2 & ActivityPub to PR in February, WebSub (formerly PubSub) to PR in April; no f2f meetings expected, monthly telcons.
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tantek (sorry for the omission)
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ben_thatmustbeme ... thats a good indicator for rechartering
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aaronpk +1
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wilkie +1
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rhiaro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
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tantek RESOLVED: request 6 month extension to take our drafts to REC, with plans already to take Micropub to PR in January, LDN & AS2 & ActivityPub to PR in February, WebSub (formerly PubSub) to PR in April; no f2f meetings expected, monthly telcons.
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rhiaro PROPOSED: rename CG to *swish*
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rhiaro Social Web Incubator Says Hi
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ben_thatmustbeme Social Web Incubator Social Hub
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ben_thatmustbeme Social Web Incubator Social Hubbub
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: the question is what happens to all our .rocks domains
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csarven Oh..
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csarven q+
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Zakim sees csarven on the speaker queue
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csarven q+ github/3rd party URLs in specs
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Zakim csarven, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: sounds like a good thing to add to the list of things we intend to maintain after the WG finishes
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: its okay to say that you own that and its not the group that owns it
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i'd be surprised to have the community group own a domain since they aren't official
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ben_thatmustbeme ... if i was w3c, i would not want be endorsing the code written by the CG
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: is what eprodrom getting at is can the CG find someone to take over as2.rocks?
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i think aaronpk has more domains there
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: capture it as something for the CG to deal with
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: going back to rechartering
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ben_thatmustbeme ... as sandro pointed out there is a need for 20 members
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csarven q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell going back to earlier conversation: the activitystrea.ms website domain is owned by Chris Messina. Publishing is via github site
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ben_thatmustbeme ... we don't even need to figure out what to put in a recharter now, we can say, what the CG incubates can determine what we recharter with
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: so the charter is open ended?
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ben_thatmustbeme (talking about web incubator CG)
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jasnell previously, Chris indicated that he is willing to transfer ownership as long as there is agreement to transfer it back to him should there be no desire to continue maintaining it
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ben_thatmustbeme s/web incubator/web platform/
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i don't know why we would recharter right now, we have a CG that will be maintaining things, my guess is they will not be making many proposals in the next 6 months, there is a lot of implementation work to do
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ben_thatmustbeme ... there is a lot of advocacy work to do
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i don't think there is a lot of work that we have on the table
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: we have very deliberately been trying to reduce that and focus the group, thats why there isn't a lot left
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tantek (explicitly)
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: i guess my question is, if we get to the end of our extension, and we don't have a lot of work to do, are we ok with that?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think there is a growing set of communities because of the work we are doing, i forsee growing momentum of the next 3-4 months
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ben_thatmustbeme ... second, if i had to drop a recharter today, i could 3 things on it that have multiple implementations already
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ben_thatmustbeme ... Vouch, Salmention, and private webmentions
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme ... if i were to say that in 6 months, we are going to draft another charter, i think we have a good case
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i'm not making a proposal
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tantek ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: i see this as try to build up pressure in the CG, if it turns out to be WG levels, thats ok
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: if i may ask, i understand there are WG that don't have a fixed schedule as we do.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: they do, every single one of them has to recharter each time
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom: is it more a horizontal group
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: horizontal groups don't typically produce their own specs
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csarven hopes for a social angle to climate issues
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csarven speaking of after 6 months
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eprodrom Cool
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csarven No audio for me. It cut off. I came back on .. still no audio.
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eprodrom csarven: working on it
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csarven thanks
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wilkie sound good
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aaronpk i think google voice timed me out
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aaronpk should be back now
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tantek csarven indeed re: climate issues
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think we leave the question of rechartering open
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ben_thatmustbeme ... i wanted to say that explicitly, and remain hopeful, and there is enough work to recharter if enough people decide that
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: is it good or bad to have the group expire and then recharter again having had a gap?
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro: it doesn't really matter
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rhiaro TOPIC: FIN
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rhiaro trackbot, end meeting
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been tantek, aaronpk, rhiaro, csarven, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/18-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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rhiaro Group hug?
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wilkie :')
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csarven ++
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tantek THANK YOU EVERYONE!
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