2017-05-23 UTC
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# 15:00 sandro KevinMarks, would you be able to join these telecons if they were two hours later? # 15:03 KevinMarks Yes, usually. This time is usually good but I have a meeting scheduled for now # 15:03 sandro KevinMarks, I thought you'd once said this time was bad for you. Anyway, we need to switch the time, and I'm hoping going back to old time is good for everyone # 15:05 rhiaro Fine by me, I'm back in the northern hemisphere for the forseeable future # 15:06 ben_thatmustbeme if i could speak, i would gladly guest chair, but alas, conference room is taken, so i'm just listening in ajordan_ joined the channel
# 15:08 sandro noting resolution to publish not properly formatted # 15:10 aaronpk ... I originally thought w3c management would just approve an extension. That didn't turn out to be the case, they want to ask the AC. # 15:10 aaronpk ... not much response yet, hopefully you all have a few people you can ask to vote # 15:10 aaronpk ... we won't know for sure for 4 weeks when the vote ends # 15:11 aaronpk <aaronpk> we had talked about switching to a new time # 15:11 aaronpk sandro: right. i'm hesitant to suggest a brand new time, but maybe we can propose to switch back to the old time # 15:11 sandro PROPOSED: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this # 15:11 aaronpk ... the motivation for this being that cwebber2 has a conflicting WG meeting at this time # 15:12 sandro RESOLVED: PENDING CONFIRMATION BY EVAN and TANTEK: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this # 15:12 strugee my regular IRC client is working now; when I close the web client should I present+ again? no right? # 15:12 Loqi strugee: tantek left you a message 3 days, 23 hours ago: looks like you found your answer re: Google and microformats? They definitely still do parse microformats, question is where they are with parsing mf2, since they have unofficially made positive remarks about it for a few years, and may just be waiting for some measure of critical mass (which has accelerated in the past 2 years) # 15:13 aaronpk sandro: AS2 and Micropub are recommendations as of this morning! congratulations to everyone! # 15:13 aaronpk ... thanks to amy for taking care of the publication process tantek joined the channel
# 15:14 aaronpk sandro: i should know this, but did we publish the revised CR? # 15:15 aaronpk cwebber2: I ended up realizing there's another thing i needed to add to my implementation, the file upload process # 15:15 aaronpk ... in order to do that i needed to release two libraries, the cryptography and web utilities # 15:15 aaronpk ... since i made the mistake of using a very underused language for the basis of this whole thing # 15:15 aaronpk ... so things are moving along but i wish i could give a better update # 15:16 aaronpk sandro: is there anything anyone else can do to help you move the test suite along? # 15:16 aaronpk cwebber2: i'm not sure, i feel like i painted myself into a corner in terms of getting help # 15:17 aaronpk sandro: let me ask the hard management question. does it make sense to back out of the corner and do it a different way? # 15:17 aaronpk cwebber2: i don't know, why don't we approach this next week # 15:17 aaronpk sandro: what stack did you use for the test systems you built? # 15:18 aaronpk tantek: so the activitypub update is that we published a new CR? # 15:19 aaronpk tantek: are there any new issues since the CR that you'd like to discuss chris? # 15:20 aaronpk cwebber2: there is one thing, but i don't feel like w'ell have a useful conversation on the call about it today # 15:20 aaronpk tantek: that's fine, if you think you can prepare for a conversation next week, or even just resolve before next week that's great # 15:20 Zakim Present: rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, ajordan_, tantek # 15:20 Zakim On IRC I see tantek, ajordan_, Zakim, RRSAgent, KevinMarks, timbl, jankusanagi_, albino, ajordan, jungkees, saranix, tcit, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, MMN-o, astronouth7303, # 15:20 Zakim ... cwebber2, bwn, sandro, Gargron, mattl, wilkie, DenSchub, trackbot, csarven, nightpool, raucao, jet, bigbluehat, KjetilK, dwhly, bitbear, aaronpk, lambadalambda, Loqi # 15:21 ajordan is it just me or did keyboard activity just increase 1000x? # 15:21 cwebber2 btw, the thing that ended up slowing things down for this week wasn't actually the test suite itself, but rather the actual implementattion I was testing against, so rewriting the test suite in another language, I still would have been slow even if that hadn't happened # 15:22 sandro aaronpk: yes, and impl report live, and mine and julien's are in there # 15:22 sandro .. and we have a resoluton to publish update, which I haven't done # 15:23 sandro sandro: I'm inclined to wait until near the end of June # 15:24 sandro .. so we can incorporate editorial improvements # 15:25 sandro sandro: we just have to vote to exit CR before the end of the charter # 15:26 sandro tantek: Who has an impl and has not submitted impl report, any of the three parts # 15:26 sandro tantek: just publish, just subscribe, just act as hub # 15:27 tantek rhiaro do you support WebSub on your site? E.g. publishing / posting notifications? # 15:28 sandro sandro: I wonder about divvying up the work of testing against existing implementations # 15:28 sandro sandro: If none of these things pass the test suite we're going to have a moment # 15:29 sandro tantek: As a publisher, it took me minutes to implement. # 15:29 sandro tantek: If you're a publisher, please consider implementing it # 15:31 sandro sandro: we talked about it, but okay to do more # 15:31 sandro aaronpk: I see a bunch of folks have tried using the test suite, but not submitting reports # 15:31 sandro sandro: I don't suppose you can tell where in the funnel they're dropping out? # 15:32 sandro tantek: Any specific big hubs we want tested? google? github? # 15:32 sandro sandro: github says PuSH compatible, but not sure # 15:33 sandro tantek: I'll ask Brett and Brad if they have a moment to try the test suite # 15:34 sandro sandro: maybe sleuth via libraries? mastodon, gnusocial # 15:35 sandro aaronpk: 410 GONE would be normative, if we decided to incorporate it # 15:35 Loqi [Alkarex] #106 Suggestion: Use HTTP 410 Gone # 15:36 sandro aaronpk: it's a new feature. if the subscriber returns 410 Gone, the hub should delete subscription. It wouldn't break anything, really? # 15:37 sandro aaronpk: We're in the sitation right now, if the sub is deleted, the hub keeps trying to deliver # 15:38 sandro sandro: it's kind of naturally a part of web architecure # 15:39 sandro sandro: I think we could do this non-breaking # 15:41 sandro aaronpk: We already had two independent subscribers implement this feature, on their own. And when we opened it, one of the hubs added support. # 15:42 sandro tantek: Sandro, if you can make a case to the director, that this is just clarifying web architecture, then okay. Let's not restart clock. # 15:44 ben_thatmustbeme I dropped link to websub.rocks in IRC for diaspora, friendica, hubzilla, indieweb, mastodon, pump.io, and gnusocial # 15:44 sandro PROPOSED: Adopt the option HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock # 15:45 Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 72 karma in this channel (223 overall) # 15:45 sandro RESOLVED: Adopt the optional HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock # 15:48 sandro PROPOSED: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents # 15:48 sandro RESOLVED: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents # 15:49 sandro cwebber2: Not much to say. We had a good meeting last week. # 15:49 sandro .. urgent to settle time. 22 votes on earlier poll, not so many yet on this one # 15:50 sandro cwebber2: anyone have a strong preference between dates # 15:52 sandro sandro: still ten people who answered the previous # 15:52 sandro cwebber2: so this week, do we do Friday again, then decide then and there # 15:53 sandro cwebber2: current wiki page says based on results of poll # 15:54 sandro tantek: this all sounds okay, aaron and cwebber2 # 15:55 sandro cwebber2: consider it resolved for Wednesday, skipping this week # 15:56 aaronpk ... i was trying to convince w3c to let me install mastodon # 15:56 aaronpk ... they won't, becausse there's no way to follow their normal practice of gently sunsetting the service # 15:56 aaronpk ... unless there's a way to move people off the service, they don't want to run the service # 15:56 aaronpk ... if sites respect HTTP forwarding then we're all set, which is what i wrote up in issue 4 # 15:56 aaronpk ... so i'm trying to figure out what things support forwarding # 15:57 aaronpk ... activitypub never mentions HTTP redirects. so you could say you would follow them or not # 15:57 Loqi 23 May 2017
“drawingThe JSON data model and vocabulary for representing common online social objects, activities, and the ... # 15:57 aaronpk ... websub does talk about it but i'm still not clear on how much you can get away with # 15:58 aaronpk ajordan: what we've done in the past is we didn't put anything in the spec about you MUST respect http caching headers, but we said something in the activitypub spec about this is http so caching should be respected # 15:58 aaronpk cwebber2: if you don't respect http caching you might make things painful for people but things won't break. but redirects might break things if you don't add it # 15:58 aaronpk ... it's probably a good idea, but i haven't thought through it all yet # 15:59 tantek thanks rhiaro! Great post! Do we have another post for Micropub REC as well then? # 15:59 aaronpk ... the main point where i started to get unsure which is where sandro was suggesting that to avoid it being unintentional that you have 30 days before you make it permanent, that seems like complicated code # 16:01 aaronpk <aaronpk> websub has tests for this, and some guidance for how to redirect # 16:01 aaronpk sandro: it would be easy to add rel=hub and have a notification go out to the hub # 16:02 aaronpk ... politically, i'm not sure. maybe if there was some use for it, not just "that'd be cool" # 16:02 aaronpk tantek: the other place to consider would be the w3c news page # 16:05 aaronpk tantek: if there are no other issues we'll adjourn for the day # 16:06 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, ajordan_, tantek # 16:06 Loqi aaronpk has 81 karma in this channel (1322 overall) # 16:07 Loqi aaronpk has 82 karma in this channel (1323 overall) # 16:07 Loqi tantek has 56 karma in this channel (344 overall) # 16:07 ajordan tantek: FWIW what makes deploying WebSub difficult for my site is that it's 100% static # 16:08 aaronpk basically you just add a hub ping to the script that generates your pages # 16:08 ajordan aaronpk: I know there are ways to work around it, I just have to figure out what the best way is # 16:08 tantek aaronpk, is there a "How to" for WebSub for static sites? # 16:09 ajordan the other problem is that I don't have an automatic deployment mechanism like GitHub Pages; it's just me manually SSH'ing in and running `git pull` # 16:10 ajordan it doesn't really have to be static, but I prefer it because operationally it's easier/more efficient # 16:10 ajordan I think what I may do is just run a daemon on the server and manually ping it after a deploy # 16:11 ajordan and then that can fetch mf2 from localhost and based on what it's seen before run WebMention, publish to hugs, etc. # 16:11 tantek rhiaro++ for getting the W3C News posts published for AS2 and Micropub! # 16:11 Loqi rhiaro has 140 karma in this channel (256 overall) # 16:11 Loqi rhiaro has 141 karma in this channel (257 overall) # 16:13 ajordan cwebber2: I feel like larjona might have something for these situations # 16:14 astronouth7303 ajordan: git hooks # 16:14 aaronpk oh yeah i always forget about git hooks! that's a great idea # 16:15 ajordan both for the ascii art *and* for calling tantek a heretic # 16:16 ajordan I think what I might do is just have a daemon that runs on localhost and takes pings # 16:16 ajordan then the WebSub/WebMention stuff can be a separate codebase that other people can use too # 16:17 ajordan and I'll make a small git pull hook that will ping localhost # 16:17 aaronpk A tool for static sites would definitely be useful # 16:18 ajordan and by bikeshed I mean "give me ideas" because I'm super lazy and don't wnat to come up with a decent name # 16:18 astronouth7303 Static ping? # 16:19 astronouth7303 Seems obvious # 16:19 astronouth7303 Is there a ping pong reference to be made? # 16:20 sandro So it'd be nice to have a page somewhere that lists (1) public/commercial hubs one can use, and (2) hubs one can easily install. IE a Hub Implementations page. # 16:20 ajordan sandro: isn't there something like that on the IndieWeb wiki? there must be # 16:22 aaronpk We might need to clean up that page like we started cleaning up Webmention and Micropub pages # 16:22 ajordan > This article is a stub. You can help the IndieWeb wiki by expanding it. # 16:23 tantek rhiaro: I think there are some markup errors in that AS2 blog post # 16:25 Loqi 23 May 2017
“drawingThe JSON data model and vocabulary for representing common online social objects, activities, and the ... # 16:26 astronouth7303 Sorry for not voting in the schedule poll. I've had a... Distracting weekend # 16:30 sandro Forwarding? I have lots of others, too, but sure. # 16:37 astronouth7303 I see I'm going to have to implement all the things -_- # 16:38 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: sandro : now with the right location :) # 16:38 aaronpk i was talking to ajordan but thanks to tantek too of course # 16:40 astronouth7303 I'm looking at individual social instance with blog # 16:40 ajordan alright, I'm creating a repo. last chance to say you hate the name "lazymention" # 16:45 astronouth7303 I'm still thinking http middleware would be really useful # 16:46 astronouth7303 As an implementation of the API, especially activity pub # 16:47 sandro thanks cwebber2, added. I have about 5 more issues I'm stewing on, ... but let me see what other people suggest first. # 16:47 aaronpk is a fan of not using spec names in product names # 16:47 ajordan you were also 5 seconds too late; it's enshrined forever now (unless I rename the repo) # 16:47 aaronpk learned that the hard way with indieauth.com haha # 16:50 Loqi [darobin] #49 Thought experiment: using schema.org + JSON-LD instead # 16:51 ajordan sandro: I've been talking to the JSONFeed people a bit # 16:51 tantek prefers to make popcorn and watch the drama enfold # 16:52 ajordan > since the move to W3C [AS2] arguably was turned into RDF instead of JSON and simply still happens to have a JSON-based serialization # 16:53 Loqi [lmorchard] #20 What about JSON Activity Streams? # 16:53 tantek sandro, always hilarious to see people suggest "hey please change your publishing spec to be more verbose and complicated the way I want it" without even bothering to try showing a prototype to demonstrate it or why there is any user-value whatsoever in doing so. (re: that issue 49) # 16:55 sandro Sigh -- with the RDF bashing -- AS2 become RDF *before* it came to W3C. # 16:56 ajordan it seems to me that really AS2 and JSONFeed are two different tools # 16:56 tantek sandro, the political baggage of early RDF political heavy-handedness at W3C will take a long time to overcome # 16:57 tantek (why the folks working on Atom took it to IETF instead of W3C etc.) # 17:02 tantek sandro, if anything, we did a good job here in SWWG of specifying / making sure AS2 could be published and consumed "just" as JSON # 17:02 tantek we made it *less* RDF dependent / aware, not more. AFAIK dmitriz joined the channel
# 17:04 astronouth7303 I'll still be consuming it as rdf # 17:04 tantek or rather, you'll be consuming it as JSON-LD, and internally using an RDF model I presume # 17:05 astronouth7303 And I would argue that it's better than way # 17:05 tantek since there is just JSON-LD, no "RDF" serialization of AS2 (no AS2 turtle, no AS2 RDF/XML, etc.) # 17:06 tantek astronouth7303: of course! why else would you make that decision for your own needs. timbl joined the channel
# 17:07 astronouth7303 I mean, as a consumer, you can't be certain how the producer will serializer KevinMarks joined the channel
# 18:34 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed dmitriz joined the channel
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# 20:45 tantek I have confirmed I can make the new telcon time. So we'll have at least one chair there :) # 20:47 tantek Sandro, I noticed you changed the photo on our homepage back to one from 18 months ago. reasoning makes sense, but that one look so dark and serious. Any objection to changing it to the photo from https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16 ? I think it's more diverse, colorful and happy looking; plenty professional. # 20:47 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F5) # 20:50 tantek also did we not take a photo for 2016-11-17 f2f? # 21:01 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F5) # 21:01 sandro everyone's squinting at the sun, but still it's good, yeah. # 21:04 Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8) # 21:08 aaronpk this morning it was full of icons and no news items krainboltgreene joined the channel
# 21:25 tantek sandro - home page photo updated, little bit of zoom & crop with some CSS hackery ;) KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# 21:45 Loqi 23 May 2017
The Social Web Working Group has published a W3C Recommendation of Micropub. Micropub is a client-to-server prot... KevinMarks and dmitriz joined the channel
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cwebber2 btw aaronpk it looks like this is the "general" w3c code of conduct https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-social-irc
KevinMarks Yes, usually. This time is usually good but I have a meeting scheduled for now
ben_thatmustbeme present+
sandro PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes
Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103033&oldid=103008
strugee my regular IRC client is working now; when I close the web client should I present+ again? no right?
aaronpk oops wrong URL https://w3c.github.io/websub/#subscription-migration
tantek https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/6321 - hovering over the first link "JSON data model" gives me this URL: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG%E2%80%9D%3ESocial%20Web%20Working%20Group%3C/a%3E%20has%20published%20ActivityStreams%202.0%20as%20a%20Recommendation.%20AS2%20provides%20a%20%3Ca%20href=
ajordan no reason for https://indieweb.org/WebSub#Discussion to continue linking to the old spec right?
@t AS2 and Micropub are @W3C Recommendations! Congrats @SocialWebWG and editors! Specs, test suites, etc.: http://tantek.com/2017/143/t1 (twitter.com/_/status/867143902914129921)