#social 2017-05-30

2017-05-30 UTC
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ben_thatmustbeme That tweet was supposed to be a reply but it's like it got orphaned... Weird
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aaronpk Maybe the original was deleted
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Denise_Henley_ I
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Denise_Henley_ Hensley
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@taswarbhatti #ActivityPub standard for the #federated #social web distributed web | https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ https://twitter.com/taswarbhatti/status/868477790357782529/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/868477790357782529)
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-30]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103062&oldid=103043
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fkleedorfer Hi! I just discovered your ActivityPub candidate recommendation and there is a lot of overlap with what we've been developing under the name of "Web of Needs" (see http://researchstudio-sat.github.io/webofneeds/ or demo on http://matchat.org ). We started from, say, the opposite side - not a user's social network (as is the basis of AP) but the idea that you publish a 'Need' and it gets matched with other needs (which is similar to an Actor in AP)
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fkleedorfer If you see any possibility of cooperation, I'd be very open for that
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saranix interesting idea. matchat.org is a White Screen of Death though. Errors: https://ghostbin.com/paste/xuvd9
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fkleedorfer @saranix I agree the demonstrator could be better - it's a process ;-) Thanks for the stacktrace - which os/browser were you on?
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aaronpk It loaded on iOS but oms it took forever and scrolling is awful
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fkleedorfer Loading is slow because we're loading rdfstore-js (and a whole bunch of other dependencies) upon page load - haven't had the time to optimize that, yet, but we have some ideas how to do that
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-30]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103063&oldid=103062
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@triptych https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/869576642640846848)
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@martijnvdven @ankedesign http://Indieweb.org en W3 standaarden als https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ zijn helemaal naar v2. Parsers zi… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869580259947151360 (twitter.com/_/status/869580259947151360)
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DenSchub thanks for the reminder, sandro. sadly, i'll be travelling to a converence tomorrow
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cwebber2 hello
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cwebber2 moin moin
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DenSchub lol
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astronouth7303 moin
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astronouth7303 (i still don't like that wiki)
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saranix fkleedorfer: firefox/linux
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fkleedorfer thanks! Unexpected this is.
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saranix fkleedorfer: where is the protocol documented?
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fkleedorfer Well, there is no complete specification yet. There is some documentation in the form of publications ( see https://sat.researchstudio.at/publications ) and different aspects are documented in the code documentation (markdown files intended as documentation on github)
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fkleedorfer If you have a specific question I'll be happy to answer and extend the documentation
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saranix a list of ontologies would be helpful
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ajordan we meeting now?
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ajordan wonders where tantek is
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aaronpk waves
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eprodrom hi all
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ajordan heya eprodrom!
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ajordan heya aaronpk!
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cwebber2 hi!
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ajordan :)
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eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-social-irc
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 30 May 2017
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eprodrom present+
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sandro present+
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ajordan present+
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eprodrom cwebber2: are you calling in?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes
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ajordan is still dialing in
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eprodrom Awesome
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eprodrom scribe?
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sandro scribe: sandro
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sandro scribenick: sandro
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cwebber2 present+
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ben_thatmustbeme present+
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aaronpk present+
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ben_thatmustbeme feels important
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30
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sandro eprodrom: This is our new meeting time
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eprodrom TOPIC: Approval of previous minutes
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eprodrom PROPOSED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-23-minutes as minutes for 23 May 2017 meeting
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ajordan morning tantek!
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sandro +1
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eprodrom +1
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tantek good morning
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tantek present+
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cwebber2 +1
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ajordan +1
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tantek +1 from what I recall reading it later that day
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk +1
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-23-minutes as minutes for 23 May 2017 meeting
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sandro sandro: Please keep trying to find AC Reps to vote
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sandro https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/socialweb-exnt/
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sandro (access controlled link)
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sandro until June 16
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sandro https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList
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sandro I think Evan can read this, but maybe not.
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sandro tantek: curious
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ben_thatmustbeme does not have access as an IE
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tantek can you see this? https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=33280
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
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sandro eprodrom: okay, we'll try to figure out who we know
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sandro sandro: to remind them to give feedback
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ajordan tantek: not authorized for me
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sandro tantek: we'd love feedback as part of those conversations as well
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sandro topic: Next Telcon
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sandro June 6
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aaronpk won't be able to make it on june 6th
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sandro topic: ActivityPub
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sandro eprodrom: test suite?
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sandro cwebber2: life took over, family emergency, etc, still not ready
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sandro ... one issue for discussion
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tantek eprodrom_ vs eprodrom
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225
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Loqi [brianolson] #225 Needs provisions for encrypting content for privacy
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sandro cwebber2: someone's asking for end-to-end encryption
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eprodrom Fixed!
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sandro cwebber2: Can we say it's worth exploring, but not feasible in the spec at this time
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sandro +1
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ajordan +1
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sandro eprodrom: If you literally are going to encrypt activities as posted to your outbox, so they're only readable to recipients who know it, the server couldn't do the routing
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225#issuecomment-304938193
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Loqi [cwebber] So there are two ways to encrypt things. You can encrypt things between servers, which is done via SSL/TLS. You could also give each user a public/private keypair on the server, but at that point you're nearly in "as good/bad" of a situation as HTT...
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sandro cwebber2: I think I captured that in the issue.
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sandro .. If you just want an encrypted wrapper, we could maybe support that in extension, but s2s side effects wouldn't work
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sandro .. server can't, eg, increase likes, add someone to list, etc
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sandro .. encrypted wrapper would have lots of side effects. Just delivery of an object.
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sandro eprodrom: it would be possible to do encrypted-content property
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sandro .. or to have an encrypted-note type, that has much of the same properties as node, but we expected 'content' value to be opaque. That would cover much of what people expect from end-to-end.
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sandro cwebber2: or encrypted-payload field, with json object.
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sandro .. like email, as far as envelope being visible
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sandro .. still, not something we're going to do in this WG
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tantek runyourownserver++ :)
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Loqi runyourownserver has 1 karma
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sandro eprodrom: the usual answer is 'run your own server'
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sandro eprodrom: I agree, closing that
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tantek sounds like a good use-case for indieweb :)
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sandro sandro: invite commenter to propose extension in CG
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sandro cwebber2: Sure
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sandro cwebber2: I will have a better update next week
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sandro ajordan: Did we ever cover Direct-Message issue?
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tantek issue number?
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trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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cwebber2 https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196
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Loqi [annando] #196 How to differentiate between posts and private (direct) messages?
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Zakim Present: eprodrom, sandro, ajordan, cwebber, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, tantek
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sandro zakim, who is on the call?
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sandro ajordan:We talked about this, but I can't remember what we said
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tantek ajordan, you can bring up any substantive issue in github on our CRs, the agenda items for those specs are inclusive of that "open issues"
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sandro cwebber2: evan made the case we covered this with to,bto,cc,bcc
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sandro ajordan: Let's remember our state on this for next week
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sandro eprodrom: it was two weeks ago
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sandro ajordan: let's move on for today
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sandro topic: websub
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aaronpk https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/106#issuecomment-304121737
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Loqi [aaronpk] Here is some proposed text to add this to the spec. Before: > The successful response from the subscriber's callback URL MUST be an HTTP [[!RFC7231]] success (2xx) code. The hub MUST consider all other subscriber response codes as failures; tha...
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ben_thatmustbeme grep of minutes list shows #196 mentioned on 4/25, 5/2 and 5/9 cwebber2
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sandro aaronpk: Last week we agreed to incorporate this HTTP 410 issue
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sandro aaronpk: Julian wanted MAY instead of SHOULD.
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sandro aaronpk: New WG
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ajordan tantek: yeah
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sandro sandro: contingent on clarification
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sandro sandro: although with MAY it's hard to imagine it being a problem
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ajordan ben_thatmustbeme what do you use to grep through minutes? do you mirror a copy of the wiki locally or something?
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sandro tantek: I agree, the MAY makes it even less likely to raise concerns. It's pointing direction for implementation. Is it possible to test this?
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ben_thatmustbeme i did a wget of them all
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ajordan gotcha
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sandro aaronpk: I do plan on test, waiting for text to be in
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sandro tantek: if it's widely implemented, than in a 1.1 we could upgrade it to a SHOULD
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sandro aaronpk: In that case I'll go ahead with a new CR
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sandro tantek: I think this would be normal WG post-REC maintenance
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sandro sandro: I'll still check with Ralph, don't want to get this wrong
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sandro aaronpk: I checked on github's impl
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sandro .. turns out they don't implement discovery
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sandro .. their topic URLs don't return anything when you touch them
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sandro .. and their subscription request requires Access-Token
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sandro .. so it's not really PubSubHubbub
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sandro .. they do send fat pings
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sandro .. but it's undefined if they match URL, since URLs don't work
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sandro .. not a lot of good news
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sandro .. I'm asking someone at github to look into it
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sandro .. but not optimistic because of their general need for authentication
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sandro topic: Post Type Discovery
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sandro tantek: Nothing new
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sandro .. hopefully soon
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sandro topic: Any other documents?
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ajordan Zakim: who is on the call?
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sandro eprodrom: We approved pub of social web protocols
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ben_thatmustbeme I have been working on updates to JF2
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ben_thatmustbeme but that will be a bit before done
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ajordan wonders why that didn't work
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sandro sandro: rhiaro is at conf this week
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sandro ajordan, comma not colon
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sandro topic: Social Incubator CG
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sandro cwebber2: Tomorrow! Show Up!
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ajordan sandro: :/
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sandro eprodrom: Nice. Short meetings are good.
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tantek +1 to that
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-31
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sandro sandro: help add to CG agenda and get the word out
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ajordan q+
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Zakim sees ajordan on the speaker queue
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sandro ack ajordan
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme too late, haha
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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Loqi hehe
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eprodrom ack ajordan
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 first early ended meeting in how long? :)
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ajordan cwebber2: might want to announce on the CG page
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sandro eprodrom, adjourned, see you tomorrow and next week!
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cwebber2 ajordan, yes probably
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eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, sandro, ajordan, cwebber, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 39 karma in this channel (46 overall)
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tantek sandro++ for minuting
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Loqi sandro has 40 karma in this channel (47 overall)
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom++
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Loqi eprodrom has 46 karma in this channel (47 overall)
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cwebber2 eprodrom++
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Loqi slow down!
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cwebber2 sandro++
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/30-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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ajordan cwebber2: definitely before I joined the WG
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ajordan eprodrom++
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ajordan sandro++
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ajordan cwebber2: just to clarify
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ajordan /wiki/SocialCG is the canonical wiki page for the CG right?
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tantek did that get discussed on the SWICG telcon?
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ajordan I dunno, I haven't been able to make it to one yet :/
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sandro It did not get discussed. Yes it is, at the moment.
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ajordan just going off what's on the page
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ajordan sandro: thx
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Loqi Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103066&oldid=0
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ajordan fixes all the wiki redirects
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tantek ajordan - I think it's still TBD, maybe wait til tomorrow's call?
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cwebber2 ajordan: tantek: it's meant to be discussed tomorrow
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cwebber2 we hadn't had the meeting yet for it
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cwebber2 I'll put it on the agenda
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sandro :-(
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tantek thanks cwebber2
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cwebber2 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-05-31#Topics
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ajordan tantek: well, currently /wiki/SWICG redirects to an empty stub which is useless so
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cwebber2 just as we discussed
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ajordan might as well
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astronouth7303 sorry if i end up derailing the PM/DM discussion
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cwebber2 I put a time-limited entry and vote on the agenda
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tantek ajordan, yes that makes sense to fix
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if he should add https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDiscovery to CG agenda
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: we've discussed it a bit already in the context of https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/194 but maybe more discussion is worthwhile
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Loqi [cwebber] #194 Include informative section suggesting how WebFinger users can migrate towards ActivityPub adoption?
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cwebber2 that conversation still hasn't resolved certainly
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fkleedorfer saranix: https://github.com/researchstudio-sat/webofneeds/blob/master/documentation/ontologies.md - sorry for the delay but I didn't want to disturb the meeting
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: interesting, hadn't read that issue before, i'll read up on it
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: maybe also read the linked mastodon thread too
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cwebber2 ajordan, eprodrom: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984
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Loqi [cwebber] Note that Pump.io already does this, and I think this may be the answer: inbox is still used for federation, but multiple streams can be presented to the user in terms of inbox / the "major" feed (which is all the main posts and comments and etc) / t...
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cwebber2 attempting to wrap up #196
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cwebber2 thoughts?
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cwebber2 thanks tantek
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tantek next telcon agenda up: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-06-06
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-06-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103070&oldid=0
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103071&oldid=103054
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cwebber2 sandro: we may need a new tag for activitypub, at least
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cwebber2 sandro: which is to say "SocialCG extension" or etc
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cwebber2 since we're starting to deal with things that have been officially shunted over to that group? and it's not just a "future effort", it's an "actively discussing in this other effort". but maybe the Postponed thing is still good enough, I dunno
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cwebber2 at every risk of that being the very kind of thing designed for maximum bikeshed debate ;)
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sandro I'd think Postponed would be find, but "Move To CG" seems harmless too
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tantek backs away slowly from the bikeshed
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-05-30]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103073&oldid=103063
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-06-06]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=103075&oldid=103070
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MMN-o I should remember to tune in tomorrow, I'm (as always) at work though and only have an hour dinner break.
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MMN-o But I can hopefully plan it so it starts and ends with the meeting .)
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cwebber2 MMN-o: I hope you can make it!
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi good riddance
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cwebber2 yay: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304990417
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Loqi [annando] This ```"directMessage": true``` would be the easiest way since this wouldn't cause any problems between servers that support this and others that doesn't support this. But some rules should be applied as well. ```"directMessage": true``` does onl...
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saranix It took me a long time to digest the whole thing, but in terms of how my software handles things the distinction is like this: for normal posts, no matter the scope or permissions, I am created a post on my serrver and telling you about it, when I'm sending mail, I'm sending it to you. In my protocol it makes the distinction based on the transfer verb and not the content
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saranix IOW either I'm telling you I made a post and giving you a courtesy copy, or I'm sending you a post directly
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cwebber2 saranix: well and part of the argument has been "well, you can just infer it based on who's included in the headers"
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cwebber2 though, that might not really be true
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cwebber2 if you're directly addressed, and that's how you filter it, then yes (assuming you don't end up on bto/bcc)
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cwebber2 that might not be what you're saying htough
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saranix Not really
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cwebber2 anyway happy to see annando seems happy with the idea of directMessage as a flag as an extension
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cwebber2 saranix: ah you're talking about post type?
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cwebber2 like Note vs (some theoretical) DirectNote?
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saranix Not that either :-) type would infer content semantics
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saranix Only transfer verb. "post" vs "mail"
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cwebber2 right, DirectNote is a problem because then you also need DirectVideo and Direct....
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cwebber2 ah
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cwebber2 hm
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cwebber2 so it would be a bit like instead of Create wrapping the object, it would be DirectMessage wrapping the object?
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saranix essentially
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cwebber2 gotcha
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cwebber2 yes makes more sense to do on the verb rather than subject level
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cwebber2 verb or an attribute both make sense to me
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astronouth7303 just as a check, quick brainstorm: Are there other dispositions besides "post" and "message"?
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astronouth7303 implemented or not, imaginary or otherwise
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cwebber2 astronouth7303: I'm not positive whom you're asking :)
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saranix astronouth7303: are you going to make me dig through my piles of badly organized notepads? :-) Yes I think there are some ideas around here somewhere
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astronouth7303 in general. I'm just trying to figure out how long-term durable the schema of `directMessage -> boolean` in the face of change and innovation.
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saranix astronouth7303: Edit -- sends only a diff of the changed object
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saranix though that might not perfectly line up with the same semantics you're asking about
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astronouth7303 vs something like `disposition -> Enum('post', 'message')`
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astronouth7303 saranix: i feel like that's orthogonal, and also AHHHH can of worms
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saranix ;-)
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astronouth7303 (i'm not arguing against the idea of flagging objects as messages or posts, just how that should be expressed in the data structures)
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saranix In practice just the 2 is all I have used. Even for sale items, reviews, etc.
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astronouth7303 i'm not coming up with another similar use-case, either, but i wanted to run that by someone else just to make i'm not just being uncreative
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saranix actually that's not entirely true. Attestations (signatures mostly) have a 3rd disposition. It's directed like "mail" but also ephemeral like posts. It's not generally meant for user consumption though, and is only meant to dictate semantics which are later translated to UI elements
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saranix but my protocol is little different than most :-)
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astronouth7303 i, for one, would encourage creative uses
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astronouth7303 but i'm only a spectator
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