#social 2017-06-07
2017-06-07 UTC
# 
astronouth7303 ajordan: yeah. if it's a position is also held by the majority of implementations, then cool
# astronouth7303 wilkie: i'm aware it is, but it should probably be written down, if only so implementers know what rel to be looking for.
# astronouth7303 it needs to be a spec, so servers know what to expose and clients know what to look for
# astronouth7303 ie, interoperability
# astronouth7303 well, either discovery needs to be published by us, or it's going to be published by 10 blogs with conflicting advice
# astronouth7303 then maybe discovery and the status of webfinger should be discussed at a socialcg meeting
# astronouth7303 like, say, tomorrow
# 
wilkie add it to the list: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-07
# astronouth7303 ... i'm not actually sure i can?
# astronouth7303 i can't even access https://www.w3.org/Member/
# astronouth7303 i'll have to try again later
# 
ben_thatmustbeme astronouth7303: that page you shouldn't be able to access, I don't have access
# ben_thatmustbeme That's for w3c members, not invited experts or community group members.
# ben_thatmustbeme Unless you are at a w3c member org
# ben_thatmustbeme A lot of reading to catch up on there
# ben_thatmustbeme I will mention that all of the indieweb uses URLs only without any need for webfinger. But taking to some devs if diaspora, they use only acct://user@host.tld. And have no intention of ever changing. Basically saying it's on everyone else to fit their URLs into some form of that. Me@host or some other magic word
# ben_thatmustbeme However, every independent social media project other than diaspora does have mf2 on their profile pages, so I think it should be pretty easy to have it to get profile data from a URL by either conneg or mf2
# ben_thatmustbeme Which means ideally only need webfinger when a webfinger address is given, otherwise, do conneg or mf2 parsing for anything else you need
# astronouth7303 nope, my w3c account isn't working for the wiki :/
# saranix I don't think webfinger has to go away. Re: what goes on a business card-- I could see https://trendylabs.example/trendy-thing-we-call-our-people/person as a URL scheme while person@trendylabs.example is their "address". As for user@host "belonging to email" I reject that. Not only does FTP and other protocols use user@host, but scheme://user@host/locator is built into URI syntax. user@host is universal.
# astronouth7303 saranix: while technically true, if i just gave you "john@example.com" without further explanation, you'd assume it was an email address
# saranix Not if you gave me: "Social media: user@example.com"
# saranix vs "email: user@host"
# saranix vs "ftp: user@host"
# saranix people get it
# saranix If you told me "irc: user@freenet" that's not even a valid routable address, but it's pretty unambigous that you mean nick@network
# saranix fact is it will always be shorter too. No URL could ever be that short.
# saranix People hate remembering long things
# ben_thatmustbeme So astronouth7303, saranix, if you gave me ftp: user@host, I would think you really weird. You could use user@host as parts of URLs, but it's very uncommon. If you have a non technical person user@host, they would assume email. If I have that to my mother or brother in law who came even get my email address correct, they would definitely assume email, even if you prefix it with 'social media'
# ben_thatmustbeme Webfinger is definitely over complex, lots of redirection, no way for multiple software to do it, but if you use user@host, there has to be some global host... thing
# ben_thatmustbeme So my suggestion is this,. The CG should definitely come up with some way to specify how to be compatible with webfinger for AP. Basically, define the upgrade path for webfinger to URL.
# ben_thatmustbeme And, assuming the WG gets extended, the WG try to figure out something new
# 
jaywink I feel horrible every time I give my diasproa handle to someone which is user@host format. And jsut to be sure I have mapped it to receive emails since I own my node. URL's much better here for sure, though less nicer to give out unless you own your node and you have a chance to make it simple and not like https://yeah.awesomenode.domain.tld/user/profile/212131311/
# ben_thatmustbeme Makes a strong case for software to keep user URLs short
# ben_thatmustbeme But even then, it's not going to be great
# ben_thatmustbeme The other option is some alternative. Use @@, or some other character. So long as it's designed in a good way.
# ben_thatmustbeme User@@domain.tld, @@domain.tld, User@@domain.tld/folder
# ben_thatmustbeme Not as pretty, but would work
# ben_thatmustbeme Google tried to change it to +username. Might be worth investigating that
bblfish, jankusanagi_ and saranix joined the channel
# saranix The single authentication realm per host has always bothered me about webfinger. But in practice, no one actually uses that really narrow
# saranix ... use-case (i.e. somesite.example/wiki has different users than
# saranix ... somesite.example/blog)... in practice, they will just
# saranix ... wiki.somesite.example or blog.somesite.example and be done with it.
# saranix ... Not only that, but most software that gets installed (regardless of
# saranix ... webfinger), expects to own the whole hostname anyway. So even though
# saranix ... it bothers me, in practicality it is meaningless. If you did want to
# saranix ... solve that though, you could do it with realms [realm]user@host or
# saranix ... something like that
# saranix The tradeoff is again with shortness and simpleness being sacrificed for a use-case that doesn't even exist in practice
# saranix It also does NOT have to be an either-or situation... discovery directly by URL should ALSO be supported via proper Link headers/elements
# puckipedia Matrix uses @user:domain
# saranix I take very serious issue with @user. "At user" makes no damn sense. The only reason it ever came into being was marketing ploy by twitter to reprogram people's brains into thinking that everything is "at twitter". Sadly, it worked very well and people are extremely stupid about using it everywhere now.
# ben_thatmustbeme saranix: the problem with just saying that no one uses that really narrow use-case is somewhat self fulfilling, no one does, because they can't
# saranix I said regardless of webfinger.
# saranix No one uses it as just plain software installs.
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm thinking for students to run something in their own webspace at school, its impossible as the university doesn't have a webfinger setup for them
# saranix They just don't
# saranix So add realms
# saranix I gave you the solution
# saranix As for control of .well-known, it requires a mediator. That is no different than a DNS server handing out encryption certs for various SMTP servers...
# saranix ... other than it is on the same HTTPS port, BUT...
# saranix ... if you have somesite.example/blog and somesite.example/wiki as 2 seperate applications both being hosted on the same HTTPS port, then you've already broken that
# saranix ... so having a 3rd "authentication app" sitting at .well-known/ which handles registering users for realms, is no different
# saranix for the student usecase, @university.edu is authoritative. They must control university.edu/.well-known as a matter of course anyway. When they hand out user@university.edu, and tell them their webspace is university.edu/~user, presumable they are also registering the appropriate info at university.edu/.well-known/webfinger
bblfish and MMN-work joined the channel
# nightpool the email confusion is why I said we should use @user@domain, not just user@domain. If you give someone @user@domain, it's very clearly
# nightpool A) a social media address
# nightpool B) associated with a specific provider, and athoritative in the same way that email is.
# saranix I never said it was great, I just said there is no reason it "MUST BE KILLED" as some people are declaring
# MMN-work thinks anything with json can just go crawl in under some stone somewhere
# MMN-work json-ld is amazingly silly because it's just some parts of XML features in a less well-defined package
# MMN-work rants
# saranix MMN-work: I'll agree to that one. Personally I use an XSLT to translate from native XML to json-ld when needed :-P
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber, i feel like there are definitely more eternal bike sheds in the group than that :P
# saranix Yeah, don't forget "what does private mean", "retractions are great/ no they aren't", and the related "immutability is great / no it isn't"... I'm sure there's tons if we sat around and bikeshedded about it :-P
geppy joined the channel
# saranix oh and "what is an inbox"
# saranix well apparently they get to claim all user@host semantic addressing
# MMN-work present+
# MMN-work or how is it?
# nightpool MMN-work: we have to start the meeting first
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-social-irc
Zakim joined the channel
# MMN-work nightpool: I'm too eager!!!
# geppy present+
# MMN-work present+
# nightpool present+
# geppy :)
# geppy volunteer for what?
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# ben_thatmustbeme Meeting: Social Web Incubator Community Group Teleconference
# ben_thatmustbeme cannot scribe today
# geppy if not, I can scribe (and just type whatever's said in Mumble?)
# saranix present+
# ben_thatmustbeme i wrote something up on the wiki cwebber2
# 
aaronpk scribing details https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG#Scribing
# MMN-work cwebber2: First item is social working group update. I wasn't there, maybe aaron is better to represent it
MMN-work joined the channel
# MMN-work present+
# 
cwebber2 Expressing intent of "where" a message shows up (direct messages? etc?) See: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984
# ben_thatmustbeme general rule MMN-work, as scribe you are allowed to stop discussion to catch up too
# ben_thatmustbeme the POWER
# nightpool Mastodon now highlights direct messages, but does not seperate them
# MMN-work cwebber2: First discussion is "where" a message shows up, this is regarding who a message is addressed to and where in UIs and feeds to show it (scoping)
# MMN-work cwebber2: But it seems everyone seem happy about it, so unless anyone has something to say maybe we can skip it
# MMN-work (missed who): what was the resolution?
# MMN-work cwebber2: Maybe I'm wrong about there being a resolution, but having a flag may be the best way to do this instead of a type
# MMN-work nightpool: Having a separate type would fail fast, so there are benefits to that. What are your thoughts on having separate inboxes?
# nightpool to clarify: I meant seperate inboxes to psot to
# MMN-work cwebber2: An inbox serves two purposes in ActivityPub, a place where people post TO and where you read FROM.
# nightpool s/psot/post
# saranix I thought we were pretty solid on calling it a "disposition"?
# MMN-work cwebber2: One option here on "where" is like a "follow" that maybe shouldn't show up in all feeds. [I missed the other option]
# nightpool It appears I'm totally misremembering this.
# saranix "post" vs "mail", or "deliver" vs "notify"
# geppy nightpool: you mean using a fragment specifier to express an intent to address a subinbox? as in geppy.im/me#special-inbox ?
# nightpool Right
# nightpool I thought people had suggested that in the issue
# nightpool but can't find it now
# MMN-work cwebber2: I'm having a little hard time keeping up. I'll keep trying for a while and focus more but we'll see how it goes. .)
# MMN-work cwebber: How about having separate types or different filtered inboxes?
# nightpool I'm +1 on that
# MMN-work How about a poll, not a resolution, regarding types/flags vs. inboxes?
# MMN-work cwebber: How about a poll, not a resolution, regarding types/flags vs. inboxes?
# saranix I don't think that's right. The receiver organizes their boxes, that makes it sound like the sender is organizing for them
# MMN-work needs to train his fingers and short term memory
# astronouth7303 present+
# geppy MMN-work: let me know if you'd like me to try
# MMN-work cwebber: The receiver would still filter and inboxes would only be informative
# geppy +0
# saranix still causing cognitive dissonance.
# saranix -1
# saranix for inboxes
# saranix I think flag is the way to go
# geppy I feel like an informative flag is ideal (re: receiver or their useragent organizes their own inboxes), rather than a type that's more "you must do this".
# nightpool Uh we're talking about flags
# geppy +1
# saranix aaronpk: no
# MMN-work cwebber: There is confusion on IRC. It would be a flag.
# nightpool Sorry, this informal proposal is "we either use flags or note types, and *don't* use different inboxes to post to"
# nightpool "but the server that a client is reading from may provide seperate inboxes to read from"
# saranix this is not clear at on all IRC
# saranix what is the actual poll question
# MMN-work apologises to saranix
# MMN-work ajordan: Aren't we talking about the proposal on GitHub [some days] ago?
# MMN-work cwebber: yes, basically
# geppy (proposal on GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196 )
# cwebber2 poll question is, how are people with either having a flag like described in https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984 <- this comment
# astronouth7303 +1 flag (in particular, a general `disposition` flag)
# saranix yes
# saranix +0
# saranix I prefer 'disposition':enum to 'directMessage':bool
# geppy is also still waking up
# MMN-work ajordan: We are going to figure out how to have clients figure out where to read from
# MMN-work ajordan: Maybe we could have clients create types of inboxes
# nightpool +1 from me on either using note types or flags
# MMN-work cwebber: we're most certainly going to keep supporting sub-inboxes as pump.io does that
# MMN-work cwebber: pump.io doesn't have flags though
# cwebber2 topic: End to end encryption? https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225
# MMN-work cwebber: saranix changed to +0 so we have consensus
# MMN-work cwebber: Next up is end to end encryption, I'll link it on IRC
tantek joined the channel
# MMN-work cwebber: e2e encryption has come up multiple times. We talked about this in the working group two weeks before. We were happy about the idea
# geppy I'll comment on the GitHub issue that there's an informal SocialCG/SWICG consensus supporting expressing intent to target a subinbox via a flag.
# MMN-work cwebber: e2e encryption means server can't mutate or change messages
# MMN-work cwebber: If you don't need side effects you can do like openpgp email (throwing aside ui issues)
# MMN-work cwebber: If you're sending email OpenPGP encrypted, I send an email to you the server will happily pass it along without knowing content
# MMN-work cwebber: I think majority of what you want encrypted is content, this can be done with wrapper object that has "encrypted post type" with base64 encrypted message
# MMN-work cwebber: and the user on the receiving end could decrypt and they'd be able to display in the client, which would be a json-ld object
# MMN-work cwebber: Main challenge would be attaching keys to things. But as this has come up multiple times and I wanted to discuss in the group
# MMN-work cwebber: One place where this makes it challenging is that web apps/browsers with the existing infrastructure. Easier on mobile apps etc.
# MMN-work cwebber: Basically javascript crypto at the moment is pretty bad.
# MMN-work ajordan: To clarify: do you think e2e crypto is difficult in web browsers is difficult or wrapping json-ld?
# MMN-work cwebber: The whole field is difficult
# MMN-work cwebber: *dragging tantek in using administrative privileges*
# MMN-work cwebber: Do people think e2e enc, despite caveats, it's a reasonable solution? Does it have problems?
# MMN-work q+ to talk about complexity regarding keys
# cwebber2 MMN-work: I think the complexity of crypto is hard of course, but the main problem is keeping up to date etc, for example openpgp has a terrible ui but having a nice UI won't solve things. eg, what happens if you lose your computer? if you don't have a backup key, do you lose your entire data? this problems are what happen with encryption. this is more okay with otr, because people don't really check fingerprints
# nightpool q+ to talk about federation
# MMN-work ajordan: So given there are a lot of userworld problems here. Losing your device, things that don't work. How do you follow someone in e2e enc etc?
# geppy q+ to comment on being unqualified to weigh in, and so leaning towards leaving it to extensions
# MMN-work ajordan: Something that's been mentioned in WG or maybe on IRC. Issues here are too complex,
# astronouth7303 q+
# geppy wilkie: are you "present+"
# MMN-work tantek: the only point I wanted to make is that I think it's super hard and has a massive failure example in the only federated system that people tried this in (which is email) where not even nerdy nerds don't bother with all the crap to make it work
# nightpool tantek: one thing to note is that riot/matrix is attempting to tackle this problem
# MMN-work tantek: I don't have particularly high hopes for any other group to solve it, especially in a more complex environment like the social web
# MMN-work tantek: It's a hard problem but I am unsure how much more time we should spend on this. I _want_ e2e encryption but wishes don't make it so. Solve it for the simpler case email first, then solve it for this more complex scenario
# MMN-work nightpool: What we've seen is people organise into their own social groups that have their own trust.
# MMN-work nightpool: People organise into small groups so privacy is essentially assured ("I know my admin")
# saranix I think email is more of a problem because of the keyservers question. We don't exactly have that problem because we are bootstrapping from social "connections" where this information can be exchanged (plus webfinger, etc.)
# MMN-work nightpool: We are not necessarily the people here who are qualified to comment on proposed e2e encryption scheme
# MMN-work geppy: I suggest making it possible for this to be an extension
# astronouth7303 +0 on e2e: I recognize that it is a highly-wanted feature, i'm not sold it can be done in ActivityPub while maintaining desired privacy and without breaking ActivityPub.
# MMN-work cwebber: This was not suggested to be put into the spec but rather as an extension
# astronouth7303 cwebber2: ^^
# MMN-work astronouth7303: "+0 on e2e: I recognize that it is a highly-wanted feature, i'm not sold it can be done in ActivityPub while maintaining desired privacy and without breaking ActivityPub"
# MMN-work :P
# geppy q+ to clarify "an extension [to be designed later by experts]" versus "an extension [like this]"
# MMN-work cwebber: There are two things I want to say. First, this is a hard thing to do correctly. I'm sure we all know this comes up all the time - people want e2e encryption so I wanted to discuss it
# MMN-work cwebber: Signal and Telegram seem to be doing much better than email with e2e encryption. Maybe explicitly designed systems it could be done better, but it would have to be tried. But I share skepticism of many people in this group.
# MMN-work cwebber: If people are very interested in trying it. Having a wrapper with encryption type as property would solve better than gobbledigook as in OTR on XMPP etc.
# astronouth7303 jaywink++
# geppy ^^
# MMN-work aaronpk: Signal and Telegram solve this by not being federated because they handle key management. So we can't say "let's do that"
# geppy jaywink++
# MMN-work aaronpk: iMessage is coordinating the keys, so when you get new device they distribute the keys etc. So you're fetching the keys from centralised service. It works but it's not federated.
# nightpool aaronpk++
# nightpool key management is definitely the right frame here
# MMN-work aaronpk: We should handle it as a key management problem, not an encryption problem.
# nightpool q+ to scope
# MMN-work geppy: I don't feel qualified to weigh in on any aspect, extension or not.
# MMN-work ajordan: Since we're talking about OTR, Signal etc, an example of federated encryption system that works is OMEMO
# geppy will have to look into OMEMO more
# MMN-work ajordan: I recommend looking into OMEMO for design choices such as "each device has a key" instead of each user which makes it easier to use.
# MMN-work ajordan: Another thing that makes it work is the fact that XMPP has publish/subscribe which makes it easy to update and basically coordinate device lists so you can easily see which clients the user has
# nightpool yeah I mentioned that a bit back but it got lost in the scrollback I think. it also has this per-client key thing
# MMN-work ajordan: And based on this, it's possible to activate OMEMO encryption
# wilkie Matrix developed this Olm library, which might be of some inspiration: https://github.com/matrix-org/olm
# MMN-work q+ to OMEMO history etc.
# MMN-work ajordan: There are still issues that clients won't say "I don't support this" and ActivityPub maybe doesn't have this signalling and primitives for devices.
# MMN-work cwebber: Matrix has end to end encryption
# MMN-work I'm going ayway for a moment
# MMN-work get geppy
# geppy scribenick geppy
# geppy scribenick: geppy
# 
tantek !tell saranix before github issues, w3c issues were kept in a variety of disparate systems, some with very poor UX (which meant people didn't use them much in practice, or only a small subset with lots of time to spend used them, another form of indirect exclusion). disparate systems like W3C bugzilla, W3C "tracker", w3c wiki pages, documents in w3c CVS, etc. Individual WGs started switching to github because it was far more accessible/usable (thus inclus[CUT]
# geppy MMN-work is stepping away for a moment
# nightpool my stuff didn't get scribed
# geppy cwebber: do we want to say we've said all we have to say? we've had a useful conversation pointing out relevant prior art
# geppy sorry, nightpool
# nightpool I'll re-do it here
# nightpool We should make sure to narrow our scope: if we want to implement e2e as an extension, we should focus first on the scope of direct messages, with 1 user talking to 1 other user
# nightpool basically chats
# geppy ajordan: if anyone disagrees, feel free to speak up. but it seems the general consensus is that this is an extremely complex issue that we may not be able to solve *at all*. We may have more basic issues we need to resolve, e.g. direct messages
# geppy cwebber2: proposal: E2E is interesting and worth exploring in the future, but not the primary focus of *this* group.
# aaronpk we don't seem to have an issue for this on https://github.com/swicg/general/issues
# nightpool cwebber2: I would make an even stronger proposal
# nightpool in that this group does not have the resources or expertise to qualify an e2e system.
# geppy aaronpk: I'd suggest that we should review the prior art of OMEMO and Matrix before talking about this again.
# astronouth7303 +1 out of scope for the main SocialCG (the "play in the corner" solution)
# geppy cwebber2: It may be useful to talk about this in order to lay the groundwork. Maybe write up a report about issues we've identified. Cochairs?
# saranix +1 revisit after everyone has read the material
# 
Loqi saranix: tantek left you a message 4 minutes ago: before github issues, w3c issues were kept in a variety of disparate systems, some with very poor UX (which meant people didn't use them much in practice, or only a small subset with lots of time to spend used them, another form of indirect exclusion). disparate systems like W3C bugzilla, W3C "tracker", w3c wiki pages, documents in w3c CVS, etc. Individual WGs started switching to github because it was far more accessible/usable (thus inclus[CUT]
# ben_thatmustbeme points to the word "incubator" in the group name ;P
# ben_thatmustbeme in other words, go off an experiment
# geppy I'd be willing to look into this and write up some unofficial notes for my own domain
# geppy MMN-work++ for scribing earlier
# geppy +1
# MMN-work +1
# astronouth7303 +1
# nightpool +1
# 
ajordan tantek, aaronpk: https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/225
# geppy cwebber2: I haven't seen so many +1s at once in a while! Informally resolved.
# saranix +1
# tantek !tell saranix re: @user - did not happen because of Twitter marketing, rather people were already using @-name references on Twitter *before* Twitter acknowledged it, linked them, and made them official. @-name refs predate twitter on various other bbs or silos (e.g. have seen on Flickr too)
geppy1 joined the channel
# geppy1 got disconnected
# geppy1 nightpool: mastodon seems to hook WebSub into Salmon somehow, requiring approval for follow requests
# puckipedia cwebber2: I think what Mastodon does is they check the hostname of the websub target url, and if noone on that host is following that person, that subscription only gets public posts
# geppy1 (aaronpk? ajordan?): I think unlike e2e this is something we can actually make progress on
# MMN-work geppy++
# geppy1 nightpool: That's how they distribute private messages, but it's also how they handle follow requests if your account is "locked".
# geppy1 I think this is really interesting, but I'll have to go back and see what I missed
# geppy cwebber2: We have two agenda items left, do we want to do that?
# nightpool Sorry, I used to know how the system works but it's been a few months since I touched that part of the code
# geppy +1
# nightpool +1
# MMN-work +1
# astronouth7303 +1
# geppy :)
# geppy (proposal succeeds)
# geppy cwebber2: next topic is where extension proposals should go (ActivityPub organization, SWICG repo, ...)
# geppy cwebber2: long term I'm not sure putting it on /activitypub makes sense, especially once it goes to CR. Can someone with more W3C experience weigh in?
# geppy cwebber2: do tantek or aaronpk have any thoughts on this?
# geppy q+ to mention rel=""
# geppy there is an "i'm thinking" emoji, don't know about emoticons
# nightpool ?
# geppy yes, tantek
# ben_thatmustbeme wouldn't put it past tantek knowing unicode description fields by heart
# geppy tantek: extensions are a weird thing in the W3C space in that I don't know of a consistent pattern, despite being involved in W3C for years.
# ben_thatmustbeme suspects tantek is turing complete
# geppy tantek: I think if we come up with something that sounds reasonable it's likely to be okay
# nightpool q+
# nightpool Has anyone recently been able to sign up for a wiki account?
# MMN-work scribenick: MMN-work
# MMN-work geppy: [silence]
# ajordan nightpool: wiki logins are a disaster, see https://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2017-06-07/line/1496821239733
# MMN-work geppy left the server
# ben_thatmustbeme q+ geppy
# MMN-work ajordan: I have a concrete proposal.
# ben_thatmustbeme can always add them to the end of the queue again
# MMN-work ajordan: If we want to write a "spec" we can create another repository under SWICG we can have an issue tracker for that extension specifically
geppy1 joined the channel
# geppy1 geppy: I'd refer to I think the HTML `link` tag's `rel` property is defined as being extended on microformats.org, as well as if there's a microformat spec (can't remember) I think it also says "go look at the external microformats wiki for extensions". [sorry, got disconnected while saying this earlier]
# geppy1 Sorry, got disconnected again. :/
# MMN-work cwebber: We could record, accept PRs etc, put their drafts into text. That sounds good to me.
# geppy *refer*, not *prefer*
# MMN-work geppy: I'd prefer to think the HTML `link` tag's `rel` property is defined as being extended on microformats.org, as well as if there's a microformat spec (can't remember) I think it also says "go look at the external microformats wiki for extensions". [sorry, got disconnected while saying this earlier]
# nightpool (MMN-work: anything someone says in IRC is automatically recorded as part of the minutes, just FYI)
# MMN-work cwebber: I don't think the same workflow applies to us. It is useful to look at what other attached parts of our (web/w3c/social) space
# MMN-work cwebber: ...are doing
# MMN-work nightpool: My proposal is basically the same as ajordan's. The major difference is that we have a organisation namespace so many extensions could live in their own repos. With ActivityPub repo we only have that single repo to work with.
# geppy +1
# astronouth7303 +1
# MMN-work nightpool: Also we should rename SWICG to SocialCG considering the resolution on the last meeting
# MMN-work +0
# nightpool +1
# saranix +1
# Loqi saranix: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: re: @user - did not happen because of Twitter marketing, rather people were already using @-name references on Twitter *before* Twitter acknowledged it, linked them, and made them official. @-name refs predate twitter on various other bbs or silos (e.g. have seen on Flickr too)
# nightpool ajordan: I think that some extensions are small enough they can live on the main repo, and some extensions need a full repo
# MMN-work tantek: I want to offer an alternative, instead of saying "we should do it this way". People have different preference for markdown/wiki markup, they're equally awkward
# MMN-work tantek: with proposals it's something that could go on the wikipage and doesn't have to go on github. The ux on github is better than wiki for issues
# nightpool I would be =1 to using wiki pages for extensions. it makes it hard to come to consensus or figuring out what is "official" vs just proposed.
# MMN-work tantek: wiki gives us at least _a_ way to participate without having a GitHub account
# MMN-work tantek: we could have a link to the proposal to leave it up to the person letting the one having a proposal have more control on how to develop it
# nightpool er, -1
# nightpool for wikis
# nightpool q+
# MMN-work cwebber: It looks like we have a resolution to create the repo, at least to have a place to capture conversation. Where the extensions are then drafted can be left up to the people doing it.
# MMN-work cwebber: so GitHub is for discussion and not for drafting
# MMN-work someone: that's not what the proposal was
# geppy I'd also prefer not *requiring* GitHub, I particularly like just linking to an external domain with an extension spec.
# MMN-work nightpool: wiki is harder to distinguish what's official etc, while on GitHub there is discussion per pull request etc.
# saranix they are all confusing, but github login barrier is serious issue
# MMN-work ajordan: I wanted to point out that with the wiki it's unclear how to have parallell discussions. With GitHub you can have parallell discussions on pull requests. I can't see how that would look on a wiki
# nightpool github.com/rust-lang/rfcs rust RFCs are a good example of work in this space
# geppy nightpool++ for mentioning rust-lang/rfcs
# MMN-work cwebber: tantek writes on irc that "in contrast, both microformats and indieweb community have developed specs on wikis successfully for years"
# MMN-work cwebber: We're now at the extended time limit
# geppy +1
# nightpool +1
# saranix +1
# MMN-work cwebber: Does anyone want to suggest something that solves wiki proposals? (scriber: did I get that?)
# tantek PROPOSAL: Use https://www.w3.org/wiki/ActivityPub_extensions as the directory for extensions that links to them wherever authors want to write them up (github repo, wiki, personal site), and then use github issues for issue discussions.
# geppy +1
# ben_thatmustbeme lol, link to that keyboard?
# MMN-work tantek: [CLICK CLICK] this is the silent version of the keyboard model, there's also a louder model.
# saranix +1
# geppy MMN-work++ for scribing that
# astronouth7303 +1
# cwebber2 RESOLVED: Use https://www.w3.org/wiki/ActivityPub_extensions as the directory for extensions that links to them wherever authors want to write them up (github repo, wiki, personal site), and then use github issues for issue discussions.
# MMN-work cwebber: Noone's on the queue, let's move on the next item
# geppy doesn't see the other topic on https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-07 , where are you seeing it added?
# MMN-work ajordan: Basically I was noticing aaronpk was talking about WebSub and I think the people in this group tend to skew heavily toward people who are interested in ActivityPu
# MMN-work ajordan: and I think that's un-ideal and I want to have a discussion how to bring IndieWeb oriented people into this group, so we get a broader perspective etc. etc.
# geppy thanks, tantek
# MMN-work cwebber: aaronpk, ben.thatmustbe.me, tantek, you are indieweb people do you want to take this?
# MMN-work aaronpk: I'm not sure what to say about this.
# MMN-work tantek: I guess the thing with the IndieWeb community is that it has a pretty strong focus on people just trying to get their own sites to work for themselves
# MMN-work tantek: So most time spent in the community is getting thing to work for themselves rather than inventing and creating new things. So the community is more a support role to get things setup.
# MMN-work tantek: A small subset is on the cutting/bleeding edge pushing the tech boundary
# MMN-work tantek: Those people are doing it basically because of the "scratch your own itch" principle in the IndieWeb community.
# MMN-work tantek: That is: "Don't just invent shit, but make something useful".
# ben_thatmustbeme wonders who in here has their own social web apps and if we have a list of those
# geppy has one he hasn't made public yet
# geppy would be interested in a list
# saranix has a non-public app
# MMN-work tantek: Sometimes multiple people want to add new features that are the same and end up in collaborating. Otherwise someone brainstorms, then someone else comes along and thinks "what did others do? can I piggyback and not reinvent?"
# ben_thatmustbeme suggests people at least add info to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Irc-people
# MMN-work tantek: Me, aaronpk, ben have worked on pushing the boundaries for our own sites. I'm not sure that's the answer looked for but maybe it gives some context.
# ben_thatmustbeme I bring that up because my biggest interest would be seeing even just public posts accessible and federating between sites
# MMN-work cwebber: This group is open for people to post topics. The goal of the group is try to get people working on decentralised social web techs can collaborate and discuss
# MMN-work cwebber: I think this group is more than open for that kind of stuff, and that's somewhat why aaronpk is co-chair
# MMN-work cwebber: ajordan, do you think this has answered your concerns?a
# saranix agrees this group is open and welcoming
# ben_thatmustbeme so a lot of the AP work and hammering out specific pieces of the spec, but my goal has always been, lets get some simple set of things working
# MMN-work ajordan: There was not a lot of feedback when we discussed WebSub, so I wondered how we could get more feedback on things that aren't just ActivityPub.
# ben_thatmustbeme I would point out that almost every project in the independant social media now has microformats, because even getting public posts readable by the indieweb was a huge first step
# MMN-work aaronpk: In Germany a week ago we had a good discussion on private WebMention specs. I could invite some of those to next week's call.
# ben_thatmustbeme I also rewrote the microformats-ruby parser so that its actually high quality now, so if anyone wants to use it, they can easily parse their public pages
# MMN-work cwebber: Even though ActivityPub, MicroPub, WebMention have gotten a lot closer but they're not the same spec. But they've grown by being discussed togetherish
# MMN-work tantek: I think that's a good community curating methodology. Encouraging a plurality of approaches, even if they don't immediately work together, tends to approve all of them.
# MMN-work s/approve/improve/
# MMN-work cwebber: 30 seconds left
# ben_thatmustbeme haha, ajordan
# MMN-work cwebber: I encourage everyone to file topics for next week. Thanks everyone for coming.
# MMN-work cwebber: I look forward to continuing conversation on IRC
# ben_thatmustbeme ajordan, i added them myself in several cases
# ben_thatmustbeme MMN-work++
# nightpool cwebber2++ for chairing
# MMN-work everyone: thank everyone for being awesome
# ben_thatmustbeme geppy++
# ben_thatmustbeme Loqi karma flood
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/06/07-social-minutes.html trackbot
# geppy Thanks all, I'll have to go back and read the bits I missed due to disconnecting.
# MMN-work Poor MMN-o not getting any ++
# MMN-work :P
# geppy MMN-o++
# MMN-work Thanks all, I'm off to meet hannes2peer now! (quitter.se)
# geppy haha
# astronouth7303 +1 monoculture
# astronouth7303 i lost it; where do i ask about fixing my wiki login?
# nightpool sysops I thought
# astronouth7303 ajordan: no, and i think the main site has a password policy against your suggestion?
# MMN-work tantek: JSON is for people who don't understand XML.
# nightpool Yeah I tried a 15-character password and it still wouldn't work
# nightpool yep
# astronouth7303 ajordan: i'll reset it again. What's the account management page? It's non-obvious.
# nightpool Oh, wait
# nightpool on the wiki front page
# nightpool "Due to spam increase, W3C has had to limit who can edit this wiki to holders of a W3C account with Member access. Note that you must log in with your account in order to edit the wiki"
# nightpool We don't have member access
# nightpool because we're just part of the community group
# astronouth7303 who does?
# nightpool We're not invited experts though?
# nightpool we just showed up
# astronouth7303 just showed up
# ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, i remember a year or so ago someone completely hosed the wiki with spam
# ben_thatmustbeme they had to add some limitations
# astronouth7303 so is the current solution to spam the chairs with agenda items?
# ajordan astronouth7303: https://www.w3.org/Help/Account/
# astronouth7303 ajordan: thanks. I don't have the right browser right now, though :/
# astronouth7303 as soon as we sort out wiki account access :P
# astronouth7303 tantek: their own indieweb site? because i'm not sure that's easier
bblfish, timbl, tantek, ajordan and bblfish_ joined the channel