#social 2017-08-01

2017-08-01 UTC
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ajordan
*whistles* why oh why, is the wiki sloooooooow ?
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tantek
hello #social - just a heads-up that today's telcon is still contingent on Evan being able to make it to chair, as discussed in our 2017-07-11 telcon.
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tantek
if you're unable to make it today, please add yourself to the Regrets section in https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-01#Telcon_info
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ben_thatmustbeme
hehe, thanks for the fix ups
timbl joined the channel
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cwebber2
congrats to Gargron and friends on the Mastodon 1.5 release https://medium.com/@Gargron/m-for-mastodon-4269c0bf6c8b
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cwebber2
and nice to see the mention of ActivityPub on the map :)
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tantek
cwebber yeah! great mention of AP and getting involved!
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tantek
now about posting on Medium ... ?
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csarven
Doesn't mozilla have medium posts? ;)
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csarven
I can't recall names now but I've come across even systems that are medium-like, posting at medium.com to announce their upcoming stuff. facepalm.
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ajordan
ben_thatmustbeme: aw, sorry :)
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tantek
csarven, yes, *some* people at Mozilla post on Medium, and there is great internal snickering
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tantek
more often, Mozilla folks post on their own Mozilla related domains, typically with WordPress
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ajordan
and you're welcome! I have more coming but haven't found the time for it since I've been with family
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ajordan
"great internal snickering" love it :D
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tantek
csarven, the irony here is that Mozilla does not make web server publishing software, whereas Mastodon kinda is
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tantek
I mean, I suppose you could publish a blog post on Mastodon as a tootstorm
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tantek
in other more productive news, got around to publishing the updated Post Type Discovery WD we resolved on last week: https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-post-type-discovery-20170801/
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] Post Type Discovery
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ajordan
tantek: awesome!
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ajordan
tantek: I see you under regrets but I thought you said you could make this meeting, just couldn't chair?
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tantek
ajordan, no I was a maybe at best (see minutes from 2017-07-11)
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ajordan
ah gotcha
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tantek
and now I'm starving and our dinner is at 19:00 ET (exactly when telcon is)
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ajordan
hav fun at the f2f then
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tantek
just barely managed to publish PTD beforehand :)
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ajordan
s/hav/have.
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tantek
thanks!
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ajordan
ugh I give up
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ajordan
is trying to type with cereal in one hand
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Zakim
ajordan, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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ajordan
wait ben_thatmustbeme which error were you talking about? the whitespace? or the other thing? :D
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ajordan
just dialed in... guess we'll see if Evan shows up
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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rhiaro
trackbot, start meeting
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 01 August 2017
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rhiaro
present+
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rhiaro
Did I just dial in to hear cwebber2 say "I'm unifying the yak space"
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sandro
yes, you did
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ajordan
did my audio just crash?
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ajordan
rhiaro yes, I'm in the process of tweeting it
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ajordan
present+
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sandro
present+
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cwebber2
present+
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rhiaro
scribenick: rhiaro
eprodrom joined the channel
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Loqi
[@strugee2] today on the #SocialWG call: @sandhawke: "so it sounds like instead of shaving the yak, you implemented a new yak"
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eprodrom
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: sandro, tantek, aaronpk, jaywink, ajordan, rhiaro, cwebber, eprodrom
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Zakim
On IRC I see eprodrom, RRSAgent, timbl, xmpp-social, wilkie, JanKusanagi, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, csarven, Zakim, Gargron, cwebber2, Loqi, dlongley, MMN-o, jaywink, bwn,
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Zakim
... aaronpk, raucao, dwhly, astronouth7303, saranix, albino, trackbot, rhiaro, sandro, nightpool, DenSchub, puckipedia, tsyesika, jet, tcit, bitbear, mattl, sknebel, bigbluehat
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eprodrom
present+
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Approval of last week's minutes
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eprodrom
PROPOSED: Accept https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-07-25-minutes as minutes of 25 July 2017 meeting
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rhiaro
eprodrom: please take a moment to look at those minutes
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> +1
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eprodrom
+1
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eprodrom
RESOLVED: Accept https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-07-25-minutes as minutes of 25 July 2017 meeting
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Summer meeting schedule
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rhiaro
eprodrom: We have postponed our 8/8 and 8/22 meetings
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rhiaro
... Just to be clear, it's too late to re-schedule those. Is there an emergency where we need to have one of these meetings?
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro
... Anything urgent that can't be handled on the 15th, we cannot handle on the 8th or 22nd
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rhiaro
... I will be irritated if anyone asks me to chair either of those :)
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rhiaro
... I assume tantek is chairing on the 15th
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rhiaro
... And I will be here on the 15th
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rhiaro
... Want to also make sure it's clear we have a 90 minute meeting today
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rhiaro
... We can finish early if everything is wrapped up
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rhiaro
TOPIC: ActivityPub
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rhiaro
... Chris, update?
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cwebber2
call failed
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Last week I was saying that I was held up by a language issue. I did a lot of work this week to try to resolve that. I needed help from the actual language a-
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cwebber2
... I turned on airplane mode with my cheek
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rhiaro
eprodrom: do we have aaronpk or julien on?
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ajordan
Zakim seems very confused, I didn't see aaronpk present+
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I figured out a way forward that involves shaving a different yak. It's almost entirely shaved and seems to be working. Tests uite should be up by the next meeting.
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ajordan
s/uite/suite/
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rhiaro
... Other news, in the mastodon beta release, they mentioned WIP AP support
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rhiaro
... They have AS2 data representation, but not full AP API yet
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rhiaro
... That's the state of things. Short update.
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rhiaro
eprodrom: The yak shaving is for the test suite or for an implementation?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: The test suite. There was an underlying structural issue that prevented me from launching the test suite, but it's nearly plugged.
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Any outstanding issues?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Things have stayed pretty quiet over the last week
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rhiaro
ajordan: Don't we have outstanding issues from a while ago? The private message issue?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I thougth that got moved to extension, because we resolved that if it wasn't a protocol issue, it could hbe handled as an extension
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Loqi
[puckipedia] #239 mediaUpload: only post to outbox if it's a Create activity?
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rhiaro
... There is one that's kind of really open for discussion, but I haven't done enough research on it yet
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rhiaro
... I said I'd look at how twitter and other things were doing it to make sure we're doing the right thing, but I havne't had enough time to do that
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rhiaro
eprodrom: So that's it for AP?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Yep
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rhiaro
TOPIC: WebSub
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rhiaro
eprodrom: aaronpk or julien on?
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ajordan
s/thougth/thought/
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eprodrom
Zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
Present: sandro, tantek, aaronpk, jaywink, ajordan, rhiaro, cwebber, eprodrom
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Zakim
On IRC I see eprodrom, RRSAgent, timbl, xmpp-social, wilkie, JanKusanagi, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, csarven, Zakim, Gargron, cwebber2, Loqi, dlongley, MMN-o, jaywink, bwn,
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Zakim
... aaronpk, raucao, dwhly, astronouth7303, saranix, albino, trackbot, rhiaro, sandro, nightpool, DenSchub, puckipedia, tsyesika, jet, tcit, bitbear, mattl, sknebel, bigbluehat
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rhiaro
does'nt understand where Zakim's Present list comes from
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rhiaro
... Since they haven't spoken up yet, I'm going to assume that neither aaronpk nor julien is available
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rhiaro
... Does anyone know of any discussion points that we should address about WebSub that we can talk about in their absence?
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rhiaro
... My guess is that we don't, but now is the chance..
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Post type discover
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Post type discovery
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] Post Type Discovery
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Last week we had a resolution to update PTD. Tantek made an update to the agenda that he's done a new WD
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rhiaro
... Probably worth reviewing
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rhiaro
... Not sure if there are ways for us to make any progress on PTD without tantek here
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rhiaro
... Any discussion?
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rhiaro
TOPIC: AOB?
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rhiaro
eprodrom: We had talked about ideas for briding webmention and AP, is that in SWP?
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rhiaro
ajordan: We haven't discussed that, I forgot
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rhiaro
... I can coordinate with rhiaro
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rhiaro
<rhiaro> o/
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rhiaro
eprodrom: Any other progress on other documents?
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ajordan
sorry for 2 minutes of rambling
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rhiaro
TOPIC: SWICG
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rhiaro
cwebber2: No meeting last week. We have one tomorrow.
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rhiaro
sandro: Is there an agenda?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: Not at the moment..
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rhiaro
... If you want to discuss anything in the CG go ahead and add it
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rhiaro
sandro: I can't make it
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rhiaro
ajordan: Historically the agenda for this is JIT compiled
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rhiaro
eprodrom: is that all we need for the CG?
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rhiaro
TOPIC: Mailing list
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rhiaro
ajordan: I noticed that in all of our specs in the SotD it says send comments to the mailing list but that isn't really where we do things so I'm worried that if someone sends feedback to that address it won't get seen
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rhiaro
... Seems that we should find out if we can change that technically/politically, and if so how. And if we can't then there's nothing to do.
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rhiaro
sandro: What would you change it to?
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rhiaro
ajordan: Github issues probably
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rhiaro
sandro: We do mention github there right? We say both?
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rhiaro
cwebber2: I think it's auto generated by respec
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rhiaro
sandro: you can do a PR on respec
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rhiaro
... We can always edit it by hand
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Zakim
rhiaro, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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rhiaro
... I wouldn't want to take out the mailing list comlpetely
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rhiaro
... We might as well do our comments through facebook
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rhiaro
... A silo is still a silo
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rhiaro
... THe fact is, almost all of us are on the mailing list, even if many don't pay attention to it
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ajordan
cwebber2 you're telling me to RTFM? ;)
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rhiaro
ajordan: I'll see if we can get respect to add it
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cwebber2
ajordan, or RTFSC, your choice :)
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rhiaro
rhiaro: THe github minutes are all linked at the top
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rhiaro
sandro: My theroy is nobody reads the sotd
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rhiaro
... It should say where we want the comments to go
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rhiaro
eprodrom: No actual changes?
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rhiaro
... Leaving things as they are with the boilerplate.
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rhiaro
TOPIC: AOB?
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ajordan
s/respect/Respec/
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rhiaro
... PLease do not feel you have to fill up the next 35 minutes
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cwebber2
let's talk about yaks and yak history
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ajordan
cwebber2++
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Loqi
cwebber2 has 96 karma
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rhiaro
... okay, finished early! Enjoy your time
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rhiaro
... No meeting next week. Next one is scheduled for the 15th
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rhiaro
... If there are no objections I'll leave the duration as 90 minutes
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rhiaro
... Thanks everyone
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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rhiaro
trackbot, end meeting
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been sandro, tantek, aaronpk, jaywink, ajordan, rhiaro, cwebber, eprodrom
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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eprodrom
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 155 karma in this channel (274 overall)
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/01-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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eprodrom
Thank you for scribing
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ajordan
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 156 karma in this channel (275 overall)
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ajordan
eprodrom++
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Loqi
eprodrom has 47 karma in this channel (48 overall)
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eprodrom
That was quick
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ajordan
it appears that Respec doesn't support the thing
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ajordan
but I'm still checking
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ajordan
eprodrom: one of our shortest I think, especially compared to how much we had blocked out
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ajordan
eprodrom: btw will you be at Debconf?
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eprodrom
ajordan: almost definitely not
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eprodrom
But I will be in town
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ajordan
ah, too bad
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ajordan
eprodrom: well, you live there right?
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ajordan
https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/ there *is* a link to our Issue tracker in the header, but I think we want Status of this Document too
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ajordan
eprodrom: anyway maybe we can meet up, would be fun to see you in person :P
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rhiaro
ajordan: respec lets you link to the issue tracker in the config, for the header
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rhiaro
which seems more noticeable than the SotD
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ajordan
rhiaro: I think we're talking about the same thing?
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rhiaro
oh right you said that
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rhiaro
I also said it on the call
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rhiaro
the other advantage of the mailing list is that it's archived at a URL
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ajordan
oh, must have missed that, sorry
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ajordan
oh my god
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ajordan
I can't test ActivityPub locally because of a Firefox regression :/
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ajordan
ok so there *is* a `github` option which adds a "Participate" section to the header
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ajordan
"Participate" is new, Repository is there already
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ajordan
s/Repository/"Repository"/
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Loqi
[LJWatson] #919 Ability to customise status content
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csarven
Just noticed mastodon's new logo. weird. maybe I don't get it.
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saranix
you mean the small one behind the word? looks more like a mustashed whale or smiling dinosaur than a trunked creature
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csarven
The 'm' in the foreground of the blue speech bubble is throwing me off
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saranix
the mustashe :-)
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saranix
it's not a speach bubble, it's a rotated -28 degrees (who tilts their head that way?) mastodon silhouette
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think it works
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ben_thatmustbeme
the favicon looks a bit odd to me though
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ben_thatmustbeme
makes me thing of a fist coming at me
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saranix
it still looks mostly like a smiling whale/dinosaur to me
timbl joined the channel
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ajordan
!tell tantek hey, how should mf2's name be styled in other specs, specifically JF2? ben_thatmustbeme and I are wondering over in https://github.com/dissolve/jf2/pull/17#discussion_r130687658.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ajordan
thanks Loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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ben_thatmustbeme
loqi, Microformats2 or Microformats-2
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Loqi
microformats-2
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ben_thatmustbeme
loqi, Chicken or Fish?
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Loqi
I'm pretty sure chicken
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Loqi
[@strugee2] @sandhawke @dustyweb: "no I'm actually porting the yak shaver... um... I'm unifying the yak space in Guile"
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cwebber2
btw ajordan, wingo who liked your post above
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cwebber2
is both the co-maintainer of Guile, the language, and Fibers, the CSP event loop I'm integrating with ;)
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ajordan
ahahaha
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Loqi
awesome
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ajordan
I knew about the Guile and I remembered his name from the mailing list
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ajordan
didn't know about the event loop thing though :P
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ajordan
sits back on his high JS-event-loop-which-is-easy-and-well-defined horse
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cwebber2
ajordan: yeah but you gotta rewrite all your code into continuation-passing-style manually, whereas our language does that for you automatically
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cwebber2
(that's what promises are btw: manual continuation passing style... which is an intermediate language form in many compilers)
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cwebber2
which is also why they're so confusing to write ;)
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ajordan
cwebber2: yeah, that's very true! async/await syntactic sugar helps a lot with that though
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cwebber2
ajordan: yeah but you still gotta align your coroutines manually right?
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cwebber2
iirc they're taking the same approach as in asyncio in python
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ajordan
that's actually one of the biggest things I was thinking about when I wrote https://twitter.com/strugee2/status/891193162122772480 - if I were to do JS again from scratch I'd make it so that it didn't syntactically distinguish between a scalar and a Promise (or really just thenable)
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Loqi
[@strugee2] sometimes I'm tempted to make a language literally called YavaScript. it would basically smooth out JS' issues (cont.)
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ajordan
cwebber2: not sure I quite know what you mean by "align your coroutines manually"
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ajordan
so basically async/await lets you do something like
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ajordan
let value = await getSomethingFromNetwork();
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cwebber2
in python where you suddenly end up in the "two languages" problem; your old code can't be nonblocking without converting it all to coroutines, and your new code won't work nicely with code that isn't nonblocking
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ajordan
value = JSON.parse(value);
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cwebber2
ajordan: so here's what I mean
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cwebber2
say you have this
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ajordan
where getSomethingFromNetwork() returns a Promise
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ajordan
ahh I see
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cwebber2
ajordan: so you can't do non-coroutine-aware-function -> coroutine-aware-function -> non-coroutine-aware-function
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cwebber2
and have it work
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ajordan
so you don't have the "two languages" problem in JS but it's basically an accident of history
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cwebber2
right, you don't have that
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ajordan
because *everything*, virtually without exception, is already built for async
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cwebber2
but you still do have much more manual CPS than would be nice
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cwebber2
you shouldn't have to have the word "promises" at all :)
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ajordan
manually using callback passing
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ajordan
and Promises are basically just a formalization of that with better error handling
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ajordan
cwebber2: definitely. hence the YavaScript tweet
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cwebber2
well async does let you do one nice thing with coroutines
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cwebber2
which is to sort of suspend your function in the middle while you wait for results
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cwebber2
so it's a little bit less chaining
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cwebber2
but, you still have to do more than you should
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ajordan
cwebber2: no async/await doesn't do that, it's just syntactic sugar
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ajordan
so if you do
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ajordan
let data = await asyncOperation();
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ajordan
data = JSON.parse(data);
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ajordan
(e.g. if you were querying a JSON API)
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cwebber2
yeah I'm familiar with that, but the asyncOperation itself probably can pseudo-suspend
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cwebber2
if it's using coroutines
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ajordan
that can be directly translated to something like
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cwebber2
it yields
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ajordan
asyncOperation().then(function(data) {
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ajordan
JSON.parse(data); // do something with this
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cwebber2
right...
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ajordan
cwebber2: yes so when you call asyncOp() it will synchronously *start* an HTTP request, create a Promise object, and return the Promise. then yield to the event loop
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cwebber2
so delimited continuations let you suspend a function chain at any point
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cwebber2
in guile we have suspendable-ports
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cwebber2
so if you enable suspendable ports
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cwebber2
any io code that would block *automatically* suspends to the scheduler
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cwebber2
as if you wrote normal, blocking code.
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cwebber2
so it's totally straightforward looking code
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cwebber2
and that's because the continuation passing style is still there, but it's baked in at the language level
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cwebber2
so that makes io easy, but of course having multiple concurrent agencies communicating is also challenging, and that's where you either use Communicating Sequential Processes (this is what Go does) or Actors
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cwebber2
those are the two big asynchronous models
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cwebber2
8sync is Actors, Fibers is CSP
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cwebber2
(don't confuse CSP and CPS, too different acronymns :))
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ajordan
yeah that's really nice. that's exactly what bugs me about async/await and Promises; I shouldn't need an extra keyword
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ajordan
but it's Good Enough so
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cwebber2
same idea
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cwebber2
you're passing in as an argument a function which is where you "return"
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cwebber2
direct style can be automatically transformed into CPS
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cwebber2
if your language supports it / is aware of it
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ajordan
Node.js basically "solves" this on the human side just by making all the stdlib functions async by default (i.e. you have to explicitly opt in to sync operations)
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cwebber2
yeah it solves the two-languages problem
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cwebber2
but not the manual-CPS problem!
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ajordan
reads the Wikipedia link
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cwebber2
probably helps if you can read scheme ;)
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ajordan
I can read-ish Scheme
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cwebber2
but the idea isn't so hard, imagine you have
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cwebber2
func a () {
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cwebber2
func b (x) {
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cwebber2
return x * 2;
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cwebber2
b(42) + 8;
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cwebber2
that's familiar, right?
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cwebber2
maybe shoulda put a return on the last one, whatever
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ajordan
I get the idea :)
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cwebber2
but if you think about this, what does it mean to return?
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cwebber2
yeah, you can invert the program and "pass it in" to the part that has the + 8
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cwebber2
and in fact, that's what writing a promise is doing.
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ajordan
cwebber2: pass what in? pass b in?
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cwebber2
ajordan: so
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cwebber2
b(42) + 8;
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cwebber2
<return-value> + 8;
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cwebber2
now imagine
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cwebber2
func (return-value) {
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cwebber2
return-value + 8;
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cwebber2
so in that sense
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cwebber2
the hole left in "returning to" a function is itself another function
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cwebber2
once you have that, hey!
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cwebber2
instead of actually invoking the continuation place where it would return
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cwebber2
you can pass back the inverted program that *would* get the return value
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cwebber2
and that's a promise!
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cwebber2
that looks like tricky stuff and it's hard to invert your brain that way
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cwebber2
but in a sense, that's the point: it's hard for humans do do this procedure inversion in their head
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cwebber2
the compiler should do it for you
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ajordan
ahhhhhhh yes I think I see what you're saying now
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ajordan
so the thing you're inverting is the order of computation basically
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ajordan
so like you always compute the "innermost" function first
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ajordan
in this case b
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ajordan
and then pass its result to the next "outer" function, in this case a
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ajordan
does that seem right?
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ajordan
thanks for taking time to explain this btw, it's really interesting
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cwebber2
wanna have your mind blown?
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ajordan
always!
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cwebber2
let me show you an example in guile :)
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ajordan
oh and also then the implicit thing is that between each function call you can suspend/yield to the event loop right?
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ajordan
so while you're doing b() you can do other stuff
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ajordan
s/doing/waiting on/
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cwebber2
you bet
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cwebber2
here's an example of implementing a coroutine using it
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cwebber2
however, you could make this coroutine happen anywhere in the program
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cwebber2
*any* part of the program, called within that call-with-prompt
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cwebber2
can abort back to that state
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cwebber2
and be resumed
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cwebber2
you can "save" this coroutine for invocation later
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cwebber2
you can even invoke it multiple times
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cwebber2
with this, you can implement any control flow mechanism
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cwebber2
even your own exception system, if you wanted to
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cwebber2
the second part of the call-with-prompt has the identity function (lambda (k) k)
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cwebber2
it could have stored it for later execution, maybe after saving a file descriptor to the event loop
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cwebber2
or it could have done any number of things
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cwebber2
so this is powerful magic, but what's even nicer is that it has solid theoretical underpinnings, but your users don't have to understand it at all
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cwebber2
they can just write code that's as straightforward as a normal blocking program
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cwebber2
and it should work
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ajordan
ahhh that's really interesting. IIUC abort-to-prompt then is the point where it yields and waits...?
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cwebber2
so you can imagine that being part of your event loop
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ajordan
yeah that's really nice
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cwebber2
anyway, long and rambling, but hope that's interesting
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ajordan
that sounds similar to what I'd put in YavaScript
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ajordan
yes, very!
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cwebber2
you should clearly come explore scheme some more :)
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ajordan
hah, yes!
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cwebber2
btw this is a "delimited continuation", but there's technically an "undelimited continuation", aka call/cc
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cwebber2
delimited are better
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cwebber2
and here's why:
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ajordan
I should play with The Little Schemer (which you suggested a while ago)
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cwebber2
- undelimited package up the whole state of your program in something you can call, but when you call it, the place you call it from throws away the whole state of its computation!
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cwebber2
- delimited instead are captured from a certain point up: you can call them like functions, and they return values
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Loqi
it is probable
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ajordan
hmm, interesting
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cwebber2
ajordan: not sure if you ever watched the video on https://www.gnu.org/software/8sync/ but that should put some of the concepts discussed in there into context :)
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ajordan
I started playing with Go too a while back, at the very end of a programming institute thing I was at. never got to the interesting async parts though :/
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cwebber2
now, I ought to get back to it :)
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cwebber2
I'm about to port mudsync over to prove that my port of 8sync to be on top of fibers is fully working
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ajordan
cwebber2: I was there ;)
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cwebber2
ajordan: oh right! :)
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ajordan
well, at the FOSDEM version anyway
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cwebber2
ok! well, now you know a bit more context behind all that hand-waving (literal and figurative)
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ajordan
anyway good luck with your port!
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cwebber2
thanks!
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ajordan
sure! any time
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