#social 2017-08-16
2017-08-16 UTC
ben_thatmust, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber2 and xmpp-social joined the channel
# 
puckipedia egh yesterday my desktop crashed and I went to bed and I forgot what I was doing in that huge context switch
# puckipedia last thing I posted here was probably after the accept/reject workaround?
timbl joined the channel
# puckipedia oh yeah, I was debugging accept.rb because I'm not sure what it's doing and I'm getting confused
# puckipedia hm, how is @account set
# puckipedia the issue is that the activitypub processing code doesn't know which user it was aimed at
# puckipedia hm. Probably can't get to the SWICG telcon, have some other things to do, sorry
Azure joined the channel
# 
ben_thatmustbeme assumes he would hear something is someone spoke
# ben_thatmustbeme hello
# nightpool waves
# ben_thatmustbeme thanks
RRSAgent joined the channel
# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/16-social-irc
Zakim joined the channel
# Azure Good morning.
# nightpool present+
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# 
cwebber2 hi Azure, we're having the meeting: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-08-16
# ben_thatmustbeme will be listening only / IRC
# ben_thatmustbeme is working at the same time
# Azure I can't join on Mumble at the moment since I'm at work, but I shall be present here
# nightpool cwebber2: First topic is update from the social working group
# nightpool ... starting with updates from aaron about WebSub
# nightpool aaronpk: got an implmentation report from Google for their implementation
# nightpool .... they've been running a public PuSH hub for a long time, and they ran the websub tests on it and everything passed
# nightpool ... the group decided to request the transition to PR yesterday, and I'll be taking care of that and preparing the paperwork for it
# nightpool scribenick: nightpool
# nightpool aaronpk: after PR there are no real changes to a spec, but it's a chance for other member companies to review the spec and give a thumbsup/thumbsdown
# nightpool cwebber2: on my side, the first third of the test suite went live
# nightpool cwebber2: so far only the middle checkbox is working (client-to-server server)
# nightpool cwebber2: The other update is that we approved a couple of non-normative changes to ActivityPub, but they don't require implementation changes
# nightpool ... there may be a couple of those coming down the pipe though
# nightpool cwebber2: The next topic is introducing new members. Azure on irc is new, and maybe they could introduce themselves? I don't recognize the username, but they might be one of the people from broid.ai
# nightpool ... I had a call with the people from broid.ai, they've been using AS2 very heavily for their messaging system, and they're excited to take part in the group
# nightpool cwebber2: We can wait for Azure to give an update asynchrnously b/c they're on IRC. Let's move on to follower liveness for now
# cwebber2 topic: follower liveness https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/17
timbl joined the channel
# nightpool cwebber2: This was a ticket Gargron filed this week. The gist is that in websub there's an expiration on follows, and you have to renew the follow every so often. The idea is to maybe consider adding this to AP in some way. Any comments?
# Azure apologizes, was away for a second.
# nightpool aaronpk: Looking at websub, the important thing that websub does well is separate the subscription itself from whether someone is following someone. I don't know exactly what the right answer is for activitypub, but having a seperate concept for "subscriptions" is important, and does seem to be missing from AP right now
# nightpool ... One is a user-visible feature, the other is plumbing.
# nightpool q+
# cwebber2 nightpool: just underscoring the perceived need or story here is that in the past 4-5 months there have been N mastodon instances created, and N/4 of them have dropped out. Right now there's lots and lots of trying to push updates or re-subscribe, and trying to figure out at what point you don't need to figure out what kind of point you don't need to push things out seems like a network health thing we need to take care of
# nightpool cwebber2: Personally I wonder whether or not it makes sense to put this into ActivityPub as the protocol itself. I'm not against it, but maybe this is more implementation advice.
# nightpool ... I have a feeling that the best practices for this might change over time, and it might not make sense to codify specifically
# nightpool ... but we probably do want to give some advice (maybe in Security Considerations) and leave it more open-ended
# nightpool ... The lease maybe seems not to be the core of the issue--you generally notice when subscriptions stop happening. That seems more like advisement? I'm not completely sure
# ben_thatmustbeme has a last minute telcon for work, going to have to leave
# nightpool ajordan: I dont' think we want to do something like having a lease, due to complexity, spec time, etc. I do seem a room in the spec for determing when a server is "definitely dead" (they return 410 Gone for a while, or similar)
# nightpool s/dont'/don't/
# nightpool cwebber2: Does anyone have a problem with having it be advisory text, instead of normative?
# nightpool ajordan: I guess that makes sense, yeah.
# nightpool ack ajordan
# nightpool cwebber2: It doesn't seem like anybody has a problem with that. I think this is probably a good way to move forward then, to get some non-normative text into the spec. We should get some advice on what that is, though.
# nightpool ... maybe something like drop subscriptions after some arbitrary time? 6 months, or a different arbitrary time?
# nightpool ajordan: what happens to the followers collection? do you prune ones you're not delivering to? Or just flag? Pruning makes more sense but seems kinda dirty
# nightpool q+
# nightpool cwebber2: My thoughts are that you'd maybe prune them. ? pointed out that some people disappeared from the Diaspora network for some time, and then re-appeared.
# nightpool ... You could maybe drop them, and then check again, but that seems like a goofy way to deal with network fragmentation.
# nightpool To clarify; Websub solves this uni-directionally
# nightpool cwebber2: Now that you've pointed out that, it seems like the right thing to do is push an Unfollow notification (?) which the user might not get?
# nightpool ajordan: to clarify, are you saying that if your server goes down, you would push Unfollows?
# nightpool cwebber2: No, i'm suggesting the opposite--you re-send follow requests if your follow is not already in place.
# nightpool cwebber2: That might not be easy to do if you can't see if youre in the other persons follow collection.
# nightpool cwebber2: I can see the merits of the websub route but I don't think we're going to get anything in in this time-period
# nightpool ... so I think the disconnecting after a period of time, or advisement of the same, seems better.
# nightpool cwebber2: It seems like we've exhausted the ideas on this. Do we have a resolution to get something about this into the spec, but what exactly is still TBD?
# nightpool cwebber2: I'll file an issue after this meeting then.
# nightpool cwebber2: We already talked a bit about tests.activitypub.rocks, and I didn't have enough time to prepare for the mediaUpload discussion
# nightpool ... but we can talk about it if people still want to, although that has it's own risks
# nightpool ... Or if people have other topics?
# nightpool q+
# nightpool scribenick: nightpool
# nightpool cwebber2: that was a lot of things! the last one in particular is very interesting.
# nightpool ... Because you're following the kind of forwarding mechanism, and I can see how the delete wouldn't be federated.
# nightpool ... I can't think of a good solution at the moment, was this a problem in Ostatus as well?
# nightpool cwebber2: I'm open to considering solutions but I don't know what they would be. If you're forwarding to followers you don't know of, it seems like you would have to extend the forwarding mechanism so that if you saw a Delete, that was about an object at a future point, you would have to forward that delete as well
# nightpool ... And it seems confusing and somewhat hard to code correctly or specify.
# nightpool cwebber2: This seems like maybe this is a more general social issue, and deserves an issue on the socialcg activity tracker
# nightpool cwebber2: nightpool, would you be willing to write up an issue for this?
# nightpool (ack'd)
# nightpool cwebber2: One of the other things you brought up was the old-style tag URIs
# nightpool cwebber2: Maybe a new URI should be generated, if you own the post. For other posts, I'm not sure
# nightpool ... but there should maybe be an extension for this and that would definitely be a welcome extension
# nightpool cwebber2: would you be interested in that?
# nightpool nightpool: I think it would be a useful extension to have but i'm not sure who has time to write it up
# nightpool ... Right now we're using blank nodes (_:atomUri) to avoid conflicts/as a workaround.
# nightpool cwebber2: would you be willing to write up a ticket about this?
# nightpool (ack'd)
# nightpool cwebber2: we could talk about the media endpoint thing, but we could hold that off to the next meeting
# nightpool ... nevermind, go ahead aj.
# nightpool ajordan: If you're going to look into (?), can you compile a list of references of how people do this?
# nightpool cwebber2: Yeah, maybe I should provide a summary for people who aren't familiar.
# nightpool cwebber2: Right now on the mediaEndpoint as described, you upload both an object shell and the media you want uploaded at the same time
# nightpool cwebber2: and you get a 201 for where that object will actually be, but maybe not whether its ready, etc.
# nightpool cwebber2: the problem is that when you want to upload multiple images, or multiple videos, etc.
# nightpool cwebber2: So what we originally had was a 2-phase submission, adopted from pump.io, mediagoblin, etc. where you upload media and then an object relating to it.
# nightpool cwebber2: the issues with that are two-fold, in that you can't upload metadata for an individual media object, and you need a garbage collection routine.
# nightpool cwebber2: If you don't wrap the object in Create, you're uploading it to wrap it in another object. If you *do* wrap it in Create ?
# nightpool (cut out, I assume the original behavior)
# nightpool cwebber2: But one problem is that most sites do still do this two-phase kind of solution, including twitter and micropub, so maybe we want to do it that way still
# nightpool cwebber2: I haven't had time to do enough research, and this does seems somewhat hacky to overload the Create activity, but that's the state of that.
# nightpool cwebber2: How does mastodon do it, nightpool, for reference?
# nightpool nightpool: can't say for certain, but I *believe* we do the same 2-phase submission
# nightpool cwebber2: the mediaUpload endpoint is currently "at-risk", so it's possible we punt this until extensinos
# nightpool cwebber2: but I think it's important enough to get right in ActivityPub
# nightpool cwebber2: would people want their 10 minutes of life back or are there other things to bring up?
# 
ajordan http://mozillamemes.tumblr.com/post/19413104894/ah-vidyo poor cwebber2
# nightpool cwebber2: thanks everybody, sounds like things are going well. Look forward to seeing you all 2 weeks from now.
# nightpool ... things are going well in federated social web world.
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/16-social-minutes.html trackbot
# nightpool cwebber2: thanks! yeah, it's no problem, I would do the wiki thing too but I still don't have access :D
# nightpool cwebber2++ just to get to that 100
# nightpool ajordan: I didn't, because we determined it was intentional
# nightpool ajordan: you have to be a member of a working group to get wiki access, not just have a w3 account
# nightpool ajordan: mmm. it was a discussion in this channel. someone found an annoucement about it, iirc
tantek joined the channel
timbl joined the channel
# nightpool part the first: https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/18
knenkle joined the channel
# knenkle matll, ping
# knenkle cwebber2, got the memo ...... https://octodon.social/users/cwebber/updates/178758
# 
Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] Half an hour till the next SocialCG meeting! Add topics! See you there! https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-08-16
# knenkle Would it be getting close to-the meeting, yeT ?
# knenkle We've been wandering about these for days: https://v.gd/aHsya8
# knenkle jaywink: cwebber2, What's the arrangemente here - ? (and that's fresh meat on Ubports, not odroid apps!)
# knenkle stares
# knenkle jaywink: Okay, before I take the meeting as 'happened' - could you lend me a copy of the meeting's agenda/minutes , gracias ?
# 
aaronpk linked in the topic: https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-08-16
# knenkle Anyway Minest|ers here ?
# knenkle **mintest ...... (?)
# knenkle damnit.
# knenkle ***minetest errata due to Weechat onscr, keyboard, soz.
# knenkle aaronpk: Sorry, but I've blown a BP-HP550-11/2.4Volt 550mAh battery on my Sony headphones - so can't attend your mumble service, but, butr ....
# knenkle What are the things that are being carried-forward in this gatherin' ?
# knenkle aaronpk: that's not very "Topic-discerning" ?? I was borne with two-right feet, soz - any chance you could give me something execute_able ?
# knenkle looks at the monkey : https://v.gd/OsZg4R
# knenkle cwebber2: that's all RocknRoll n'all, but why would that help myself ?
# knenkle tantek:
{ the monkey to the umpire phtographer, taking the twat-pic }# knenkle ** the monkey is the umpire photogrpher.
# knenkle cwebber2: teyin' top locate the irc_logs for this meeting : https://octodon.social/@cwebber/4683340
# Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] Hi there! SocialCG meeting starting... now! https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-07-19 See you on the call?
# knenkle **tryin' to locate ?
# cwebber2 they're in the topic https://chat.indieweb.org/social
# knenkle cwebber2: please to meet you - thank-you for your rabbit there's not a topic-title on that ?) http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=118018
# knenkle cwebber2: Iam trying the earn a look at a juicy topic-agenda that I can mean-to-get-used-to. any ideas ?
# knenkle so I have to take it back to gnu-homies
# knenkle cwebber2: ping
# knenkle !Aims
# knenkle mattl, that's cool = I shall be off, then. did you get my tweet ? https://v.gd/jYjrXd
# knenkle k, doesn't knowingly-wok then - caio ! thanks for masto :) goin' on @discourse now, bye
# knenkle leaves
# 
mattl tantek: i mentioned him at the end of https://usesthis.com/interviews/matt.lee/
# 
tantek mattl - better search for your liking: https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=from%3AJohnLegere%20%40t%20mobile
oshepherd joined the channel
# tantek for comparison / silo example: https://indieweb.org/like#The_Most_Liked_Thing and https://indieweb.org/repost#The_Most_Reposted_Thing
# saranix dunno about mastodon but I've seen a diaspora with over 500 comments... don't recall what it was about though, something political I think
# saranix I can't even think of good search terms to find it... it was at least a year ago... sorry
# saranix nightpool: For urns a solution might be to rewrite it as "https://mysite.example/resolver?id=urn:foo:bar" which then sends a 301 to the real canonical location on ostatus
# saranix ... origin comparisons might still be a problem though :/
# saranix I don't get why that was the most reposted thing. Or why it was reposted at all?
# aaronpk maybe for some of these reasons? https://indieweb.org/repost#Why
# cwebber2 didn't see the unfortunate line at: https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2017-08-16/1502903843333000
# nightpool tantek: responded to your comment, I definitely wasn't trying to preclude other user stories here
# nightpool the core of the issue is: how do I let server C known that server A has deleted their post?
# nightpool whether people actually ever delete anything is somewhat secondary IMO
# nightpool right
# nightpool oh! I had another thing to bring up that I completely forgot about
# nightpool (yes that is how it works in ostatus too)
# nightpool how are mime type profile's supposed to work with the Accept header? It seems like they conflict with the syntax for specifying preference
timbl joined the channel
# saranix tantek: I can't find that diaspora post, but doing some queries on my hubzilla db yielded some interesting info. The highest zot post was 204 responses, but that's only my private version. The canonical post only show like 65 or so. Brings up an intersting point: the more decentralized, the less accurate and more variable your count will be, especially when taking permissions and broken installations into account
# saranix ... I think this is even more true for ActivityPub which has no de facto permission model and completely allows for every servers version of the object to have a different permissionset and therefore different view of the reply tree
# saranix tantek: "assuming all those make it back" <-- this is what I discovered of the zot post. Many never made it back to the original it seems
# saranix tantek: and it was public
# tantek e.g. since I delegate my webmention receiving handling I can use this API: https://webmention.io/api/count?target=http://tantek.com/2015/069/t1/js-dr-javascript-required-dead
# saranix it is definitely an interesting metric. e.g. you aren't likely to have 10e5 shares unless the network is at least 10e8 big, etc.
# 
jaywink https://macgirvin.com/channel/mike/&f=&mid=a167ea295beeca0389a34a97c94c987765375a31fc49a090d8602278dbc319fc@macgirvin.com?f=&jsdisabled=0 . . Mike's analysis of the protocol map .. so there is an X on Mastodon and Hubzilla. Are there any confirmed AP exchanges between nodes from these two projects or is this just "we're complete but not quite shipped"?
timbl joined the channel