#social 2017-09-05

2017-09-05 UTC
timbl, ben_thatmust, xmpp-social, csarven, cdchapman and lambda joined the channel
#
Gargron
hello
#
Gargron
cwebber2: hey, we need a better table of planned/done AP implementations
#
Gargron
mike's is wrong apparently
#
lambda
hey
#
Gargron
e.g. pleroma is planning to implement AP while gnu social, apparently, does not
#
Gargron
also somebody said postActiv is even less likely to implement AP than gs
#
Gargron
would be great to have an official document on this
#
lambda
yeah, pleroma is already halfway there for AP.
#
lambda
don't know where mike got his info,at least he didn't ask me.
#
ben_thatmust
Gargron: i know postActiv refused to file an implementation report for websub because of EME
#
ben_thatmust
so I expect that may be an issue with getting them on any w3c spec right now
#
cwebber2
Gargron: I need to finish the test suite
#
cwebber2
Gargron: oh
#
cwebber2
you meant a table
#
cwebber2
I thought you meant correctness erk
#
cwebber2
you meant of whether or not done
#
ben_thatmustbeme
also 'planning to do'
#
Gargron
what is EME?
#
cwebber2
Gargron: Encrypted Media Extensions, aka DRM layer for the web. There's good reasons IMO to object to that being done at the W3C
#
sandro
highly controversial...
#
Gargron
what does websub have to do with EME?
#
sknebel
W3c is w3c for them
#
Gargron
oh lol
#
cwebber2
I oppose EME, I even marched against it and spoke at a rally
#
cwebber2
obviously speaking as myself here
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thanks sknebel for tracking that down
#
Gargron
i dont think pA is important so no big loss there
#
sandro
(Lots of W3C staff members are also opposed. One staff member let it influence his decision to keep working for W3C. Others of us don't see that as a useful tactic.)
#
cwebber2
so yeah I think there's good reasons to oppose EME, I don't object to someone taking a stand on it if they're vocal on it
#
cwebber2
(though conflating it with other things might be another matter)
#
sandro
meanwhile, w3c.social (hosted on scaleway, where mastodon.social is also hosted) was unreachable for a few minutes just down. I didn't think to check if I could reach mastodon.social at the time.
#
sandro
s/just down/just now/
#
Gargron
i am getting some slow responses from m.s. one of the servers is probably kaputt again
#
lambda
btw
#
lambda
are there group mechanisms in AP?
#
lambda
i forgot
#
Gargron
i dont see anything preventing you from expressing such a thing in AP
#
cwebber2
lambda: there are yeah
#
lambda
nice
#
cwebber2
Gargron has it right, though you can also use a Collection and then users can use the Add/Remove verbs to move users in and out of there
#
cwebber2
https://activitypub.rocks/ <- now with the tutorial image
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] There's an interesting bug open about it in the pump.io issue tracker too
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] With some discussion
#
Gargron
cwebber2: is the ccg meeting in 30min? cause it wasnt 23min ago..
#
cwebber2
Gargron: 1hr23min
#
Gargron
dang what timezone was the 16:00 in?!
#
cwebber2
er, 1hr35min :)
#
cwebber2
Gargron: I think I gave you GMT...
#
cwebber2
double checks
#
Gargron
it's 16:23 for me right now
#
cwebber2
context for #social, I'm presenting on ActivityPub and the paper I wrote about "even more decentralized activitypub", and Mastodon's implementation of Linked Data Signatures, and etc on the CCG call today
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] Ahhhhhh
#
cwebber2
an audio recording and minutes are posted later
timbl joined the channel
#
cwebber2
I should shower before I have all these calls!
#
Loqi
yea!
KevinMarks and eprodrom joined the channel
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
ajordan
whew just in time
#
ajordan
dials in
tantek joined the channel
#
sandro
dials in
#
sandro
trackbot, start meeting
#
trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
#
trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
#
trackbot
Date: 05 September 2017
#
tantek
hello
#
tantek
present+
#
ajordan
tantek: heya!
#
ajordan
present+
#
cwebber2
present+
#
tantek
Zakim, who is here?
#
Zakim
Present: tantek, ajordan, cwebber
#
Zakim
On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, KevinMarks, timbl, cdchapman, csarven, xmpp-social, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, jankusanagi_, sandro, MMN-o, cwebber2, ajordan, wilkie, dwhly, Loqi,
#
Zakim
... bigbluehat, jet, rhiaro, Gargron, oshepherd, bwn, nightpool, trackbot, jaywink, sknebel, tsyesika, astronouth7303, puckipedia, raucao, mattl, DenSchub, saranix, aaronpk,
#
Zakim
... bitbear, albino
#
cwebber2
could scribe, doesn't have a lot to say this meeting
#
tantek
present+ sandro
#
jaywink
present+
#
sandro
present+
#
cwebber2
scribe: cwebber
#
cwebber2
scribenick: cwebber
#
cwebber2
one of those :)
#
ajordan
will have to leave halfway through as a reminder
#
ajordan
s/ as/, just as/
#
cwebber2
tantek: first thing to do is to review last week's minutes
#
cwebber2
topic: review last week's minutes
#
cwebber2
sorryyyy
#
tantek
PROPOSED: approve minutes ttps://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-29-minutes
#
ajordan
cwebber2 ?
#
ajordan
ahh nvm
#
cwebber2
topic: websub
#
cwebber2
tantek: last week was issue #119 (?)
#
cwebber2
tantek: sandro was not convinced changes were not normative
#
cwebber2
tantek: julian commented since then
#
Loqi
[marten-de-vries] #119 'the hub terminates the subscription'
#
cwebber2
sandro: julian said some reassuring things, I guess we're in the land of "I need to ask Ralph" because it looks probably ok to me but it's not up to me
#
cwebber2
tantek: the best we can do is provide Ralph with enough background and information to make a judgement call
#
cwebber2
should I be scribing this
#
cwebber2
sandro: I wish we didn't have to, it doesn't fit in the process; if we say it doesn't need a new CR it doesn't involve ralph until we do another PR
#
cwebber2
sandro: if we say this is not a normative change and it turns out we're wrong, we won't know until we go back, kind of a rude way to find out
#
Zakim
sees ajordan on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: how we've been doing in the last year is to ask Ralph for advanced ruling but I've done that like 4 times.... I guess it's time for another one though. or we could make another normative draft but aaron and julian aren't here
#
cwebber2
sandro: and aaron hasn't weighed in on the normative aspect yet
#
cwebber2
tantek: aaron deferred to julian's comment when I asked him
#
cwebber2
tantek: julien hasn't answered the question of whether it's normative or not, just about whether it'd break
#
cwebber2
sandro: my interpretation is it is a change in behavior, but a change during failure, so it won't break things that are working
#
cwebber2
tantek: I guess that depends on how normative / well defined our error handling is
#
cwebber2
sandro: this makes it more defined
#
cwebber2
sandro: since it only comes up in an error condition that shouldn't break anything that was working before
#
cwebber2
sandro: where it hurts is if it says it was conformant
#
cwebber2
sandro: also we're only talking about hubs, a pretty small audience for now
#
cwebber2
tantek: yes and we're talking about the assertion that existing hubs are compatible with this change
#
cwebber2
sandro: right
#
cwebber2
sandro: that was my closing comment, make sure the hub-masters were all okay with it
#
cwebber2
tantek: I think you're right that it's a weakness in the w3c process about normative changes for error conditions...
#
cwebber2
tantek: there are 2 things going on. 1) I don't think it's affecting interop when things work, which is the point of interop
#
cwebber2
tantek: however, the handling of errors is where we often find security and privacy problems in computer systems in general. so if I were Ralph that's what I'd ask, how would it affect security and privacy if at all. I'd want the group to have an answer to that question before making a ruling. I don't know, I'm just asking it
#
cwebber2
sandro: yes
#
cwebber2
sandro: since it's limiting behavior it's changing a MAY to a MUST
#
cwebber2
tantek: it may close some holes, but we're not sure
#
cwebber2
sandro: actually it's changing a MAY to a SHOULD... no wait a MUST, the hub MUST keep the subscription alive till the end of the lease duration
#
cwebber2
tantek: which we believe hubs are already doing
#
cwebber2
sandro: we know some are, haven't heard confirmation if all are
#
cwebber2
tantek: this sounds like a normative change since we're tightening the requirements
#
cwebber2
sandro: def a normative change since we're adding a MUST
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
sandro: but it's a normative change that doesn't restart the CR process?
#
ajordan
is the problem with a new normative CR that it restarts the CR clock? and editorial updates don't?
#
cwebber2
tantek: CR period is when you're supposed to be making changes based on implementations. We believe this tightening the CR requirements... we believe it's on what implementations do, that the tightening of the requirements will lead to more interop not less. not a new feature, just a tightening of requirements
#
cwebber2
sandro: right... not exactly how I'll phrase it but I think I can make the case
#
cwebber2
tantek: one of the reasons the process tries to make us restart like that is for IPR reasons
#
cwebber2
tantek: that's typically around the scope of a document, what's essential to implement
#
cwebber2
tantek: this is one of those things to implement that way
#
cwebber2
tantek: some random hubmaker could raise an issue though, that's the theoretical problem we have to give a heads up about and ask for a ruling at his level
#
cwebber2
sandro: I think the case simply has to be made that it's not invalidating reviews
#
cwebber2
tantek: I would even say it's a non-substitative normative change
#
cwebber2
sandro: that seems like a reasonable description
#
cwebber2
tantek: I believe this is one of the things CR is for
#
cwebber2
how bad would it be to restart CR anyway?
#
ajordan
^^^ I have this question too
#
ajordan
also a question above
#
cwebber2
ajordan and re: CR clock question, you got it
#
ajordan
* ajordan is the problem with a new normative CR that it restarts the CR clock? and editorial updates don't?
#
ajordan
ah gotcha
#
sandro
PROPOSED: The proposed resolution to websub 119 in https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/119#issuecomment-324484700 while normative, does not hurt any interop, does not break implementations, etc, and should not be considered substantive; CR clock should not be restarted
#
Loqi
[aaronpk] Previous text: > Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription. Proposed text: ...
#
ajordan
thx cwebber2
#
cwebber2
sorry I shoulda caught that :<
#
cwebber2
spaced out
#
ajordan
sandro: maybe "current understanding of impls _known to the WG_"?
#
sandro
ajordan, no it's more about in theory -- it shouldnt BE ABLE to break any impls
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
ajordan, btw good practice is to use ',' not ':' during calls to address people otherwise it looks confusingly like you're scribing
#
cwebber2
not a big deal just fyi
#
sandro
RESOLVED: The proposed resolution to websub 119 in https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/119#issuecomment-324484700 while normative, does not hurt any interop, does not break implementations, etc, and should not be considered substantive; CR clock should not be restarted
#
Loqi
[aaronpk] Previous text: > Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription. Proposed text: ...
#
ajordan
FINALLY got a new laptop and now has a working e key. I feel your pain :P
#
ajordan
cwebber2 ah right
#
sandro
RRSAgent, pointer?
#
ajordan
I should muck with my ERC settings
#
cwebber2
tantek: I'll let you capture this and take it to Ralph accordingly
#
cwebber2
ajordan set the unicode snowman as your delimiter, clearly
#
cwebber2
wait don't do that
#
ajordan
cwebber2 interrobang
#
ajordan
or some Unicode character that looks like : but isn't
#
cwebber2
remember when unicode snowman was like the only cool unicode character and unicodesnowmanforyou.com was a big deal
#
cwebber2
ajordan I'm sure there are plenty of those
#
ajordan
hahaha I definitely do not remember that
#
Loqi
rofl
#
cwebber2
sandro: maybe in this case we can discuss this in the context of the PR transition if we're otherwise ready to go
#
cwebber2
tantek: that was my hope
#
cwebber2
sandro: yes we did decide that 3 weeks ago didn't we
#
cwebber2
tantek: yes
#
cwebber2
tantek: we've been trying to resolve it as in terms of make transition to PR
#
cwebber2
tantek: do you have everything you need to take this PR transition to ralph?
#
cwebber2
sandro: I think so
#
cwebber2
tantek: great
#
cwebber2
tantek: okay, next? I think that's it for websub
#
cwebber2
topic: PTD
#
cwebber2
tantek: nothing new
#
cwebber2
topic: JF2
#
tantek
zakim, who is here?
#
Zakim
Present: tantek, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, jaywink
#
Zakim
sees on irc: RRSAgent, tantek, timbl, cdchapman, csarven, xmpp-social, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, jankusanagi_, sandro, MMN-o, cwebber2, ajordan, wilkie, dwhly, Loqi, bigbluehat,
#
Zakim
... jet, rhiaro, Gargron, oshepherd, bwn, nightpool, trackbot, jaywink, sknebel, tsyesika, astronouth7303, puckipedia, raucao, mattl, DenSchub, saranix, aaronpk, bitbear, albino
#
cwebber2
tantek: I didn't see ben_thatmustbeme here
#
cwebber2
tantek: I don't know of anything new on JF2
#
cwebber2
tantek: I know he had some pending merges from AJ?
#
cwebber2
topic: ActivityPub
#
cwebber2
tantek: do we have a normative CR?
#
cwebber2
sandro: since it was a normative CR there was a one week hiatus, hopefully will go out thursday
#
cwebber2
sandro: hopefully will go out within next few hours
#
ben_thatmustbeme
eep, just realized, holiday threw me off
#
ben_thatmustbeme
no updates on JF2
#
Zakim
sees ajordan on the speaker queue
#
ajordan
tantek, ^^^
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: no other news
#
tantek
ack ajordan
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
ajordan: chris I was going to mention that didn't we change the website so the test suite was more prominently advertised
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: yes
#
cwebber2
ajordan: turn your computer off and on again
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: sounds good will do it while scribing
#
ajordan
s/ajordan/sandro/
#
cwebber2
tantek: we have a couple of implementation reports and the spec links here ^^ and that only links to teh template
#
ajordan
I'm laughing so hard right now my roommate probably thinks I'm a complete weirdo
#
cwebber2
tantek: I was requesting we actually directly list existing implementation reports there
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: I can do it today
#
ajordan
cwebber2, I can file an issue on GitLab if it'll help you
#
ajordan
afk for a few, still on the call
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: oh yeah and mastodon started rolling out in their CR this week
#
cwebber2
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme said no updates on JF2
#
cwebber2
ajordan: I still have changes to send in
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok
#
cwebber2
topic: SocialCG update
#
sandro
scribe: sandro
#
ajordan
scribenick: ajordan
#
sandro
scribe: ajordan
#
ajordan
cwebber2: we talked a lot about the extensions and the tag type
#
ajordan
I think we talked about the context as well and LDS as well
#
Loqi
[Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms
#
ajordan
the problem is if you ended up linking to the context, like it was this
#
ajordan
... and it didn't have sensitive in the terms and an old instance of Mastodon was running
#
ajordan
... if that old instance cached the context signatures would invalidate because e.g. sensitive would be dropped
#
ajordan
... after that sandro ended up posting a solution
#
Loqi
[cwebber] #9 LD Signatures and json-ld contexts which grow
#
ajordan
cwebber2: so we're not talking about versioning vocabs, that could be a disaster
#
ajordan
terms are the same
#
ajordan
it's just the JSON-LD context which gets thrown in every time we add something new to it
#
ajordan
so e.g. when Mastodon ships a version with the 1.7 version, if a new version comes out with the 1.8 context then the old version will pull down the 1.8 context and cache it
#
ajordan
... major topic of discussion, ended up having a good solution
#
ajordan
... I think that was the big thing, that resolution actually happened afterwards
#
ajordan
sandro: there was another aspect that we didn't resolve
#
ajordan
... we still haven't figured out basically the governance question
#
ajordan
... how do we decide which terms get added to the AS2 namespace and when?
#
ajordan
... in general terms we get it but now we need specific
#
ajordan
... criteria, resolution process, etc.
#
ajordan
... we left that undecided in part because we don't have aaronpk and we think he'd want to be involved
#
ajordan
tantek: isn't there a SWICG repo for this?
#
ajordan
sandro: there is a "general" SocialCG repo with a bunch of high-level technical issues
#
ajordan
cwebber2: but we should probably add a new one for the extension process, is that what you're saying tantek?
#
ajordan
tantek: yeah that seems like a good idea, I'd like to see these captured somewhere where we can have a threaded discussion
#
ajordan
cwebber2: do we want to do a resolution?
#
ajordan
tantek: if it's been scribed we can just do it after the meeting
#
ajordan
cwebber2: sounds good
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
ajordan
tantek: sounds good, any other items for today's SocialWG meeting?
#
ajordan
sandro: just to follow that up a bit I know Gargron was pushing for this to get in the namespace before they do a release
#
ajordan
... but I think cwebber2 ended up convincing them to do an embedded context?
#
ajordan
cwebber2: yeah they ended up doing something like this
#
cwebber2
{"sensitive": "as:sensitive"}
#
ajordan
... so you just add an embedded context like so
#
ajordan
sandro: but is he waiting this?
#
ajordan
cwebber2: I don't think he's waiting
#
ajordan
... that question happened so fast and we were kinda on a deadline
#
ajordan
... we said "I guess just use terms that aren't in the AS2 namespace"
#
ajordan
... in the future we should find a more organized way for this
#
ajordan
... e.g. giving people permission to temporarily "lease out" a name that hasn't been specified yet
#
ajordan
... just do a temporary hand-wave kinda thing
#
ajordan
sandro: it's interesting how much you can't change it later
#
ajordan
... I want to say "oh we can just change this later" but actually Gargron is shipping this to many admins who might not upgrade away from this relase for a year
#
ajordan
tantek: definitely good real-world experience on some of the constraints that might shape your process
#
ajordan
... some of the ??? problems you might encounter
#
ajordan
... how do you deal with deployed implementations
#
ajordan
... I think these are important questions that whatever process you come up with should answer
#
ajordan
tantek I gotta leave soon, need a new scribe
#
ajordan
sandro: one interesting thing is that historically we said we'd delegate to the CG after the WG shut down
#
ajordan
... it might not hurt to have a resolution on the record saying we definitely delegate
#
ajordan
tantek: I think I did that resolution a week ago?
#
ajordan
cwebber2: I don't think so
#
cwebber2
scribe: cwebber2
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: oh right, okay
#
ajordan
heh thanks cwebber2
#
ajordan
cwebber2++ for chairing
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 101 karma
#
ajordan
tantek++ for chairing
#
Loqi
tantek has 72 karma in this channel (385 overall)
#
ajordan
uhh for scribing oops
#
cwebber2
tantek: we're waiting on updated websub CR/PR but I think we don't need to meet next week
#
cwebber2
cwebber2: I think it'll take 2 weeks for me to get enough on the test suite for the next meeting
#
cwebber2
tantek: ok next meeting is two weeks out
#
cwebber2
tantek: great work everyone, talk next time
#
cwebber2
trackbot, end meeting
#
trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
#
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been tantek, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, jaywink
#
trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
#
tantek
cwebber++ thanks for scribing
#
Loqi
cwebber has 25 karma
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-social-minutes.html trackbot
#
trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
#
RRSAgent
I see no action items
#
tantek
ajordan++ thanks for scribing
#
Loqi
ajordan has 18 karma in this channel (19 overall)
#
sandro
ohhh, I think my thunderbird problem was my disk being full. it'd be nice if it said that instead of crashing.
#
cwebber2
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
RRSAgent joined the channel
#
cwebber2
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-social-minutes.html cwebber2
#
cwebber2
no luck though RRSAgent
#
sandro
looks fine to me
#
tantek
sandro, a-ha so restarting your computer *did* fix it then (clearing some swap presumably)
#
cwebber2
psh yeah NOW it's fine
#
cwebber2
https://github.com/swicg/general/issues/19 issue added re: extensions process
#
Loqi
[cwebber] #19 ActivityStreams extensions process
#
sandro
geez, not github's not working right for me - layout is all messed up
#
sandro
in multiple browsers, logged in and lot
#
cwebber2
sandro: have you tried turning github off and on
#
cwebber2
the whole thing
#
cwebber2
just press the restart button
#
sandro
I cant find the power switch. someone, get me a toddler.
#
sknebel
apparently they broke their CORS policy
#
sknebel
blocking their own CSS
#
sknebel
or just a missing file from the CDN, not sure. anyhow, it works again for me
#
cwebber2
Captain, we've got to eject the warp CORS
KevinMarks_ and KevinMarks joined the channel
#
Zakim
excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
#
Loqi
good riddance
KevinMarks and timbl joined the channel
#
Gargron
i started dabbling in my youtube project (codename "kobold" for now), it's ridiculous how unsure i am about the storage schema now, lol. either i approach it like in mastodon, or i do something different. no clue what's best. afraid to commit same mistakes.
eprodrom joined the channel
#
cwebber2
Gargron: the great thing about that phase is you can make massive experiments and switch things out and you've got no users yet to be upset about the upchurn by a big ol' refactoring
#
cwebber2
Gargron: I look forward to seeing more about MediaKobold ;)
#
cwebber2
Gargron: btw I do think you'll have a lot of fun with postgres + jsonb
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] sandro: the SocialCG org homepage layout used to be borked too; I reported it but I've no idea if it got fixed
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] Gagron: have fun :-)
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] Second systems are great
#
xmpp-social
[ajordan] Also sandro
cdchapman and KevinMarks joined the channel