2017-09-05 UTC
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# 12:59 Gargron cwebber2: hey, we need a better table of planned/done AP implementations # 12:59 Gargron mike's is wrong apparently # 12:59 Gargron e.g. pleroma is planning to implement AP while gnu social, apparently, does not # 13:00 Gargron also somebody said postActiv is even less likely to implement AP than gs # 13:00 Gargron would be great to have an official document on this # 13:01 lambda yeah, pleroma is already halfway there for AP. # 13:02 lambda don't know where mike got his info,at least he didn't ask me. # 13:28 ben_thatmust Gargron: i know postActiv refused to file an implementation report for websub because of EME # 13:28 ben_thatmust so I expect that may be an issue with getting them on any w3c spec right now # 13:45 cwebber2 Gargron: Encrypted Media Extensions, aka DRM layer for the web. There's good reasons IMO to object to that being done at the W3C # 13:46 Gargron what does websub have to do with EME? # 13:46 sknebel W3c is w3c for them # 13:47 cwebber2 I oppose EME, I even marched against it and spoke at a rally # 13:48 Gargron i dont think pA is important so no big loss there # 13:50 sandro (Lots of W3C staff members are also opposed. One staff member let it influence his decision to keep working for W3C. Others of us don't see that as a useful tactic.) # 13:51 cwebber2 so yeah I think there's good reasons to oppose EME, I don't object to someone taking a stand on it if they're vocal on it # 13:51 cwebber2 (though conflating it with other things might be another matter) # 13:52 sandro meanwhile, w3c.social (hosted on scaleway, where mastodon.social is also hosted) was unreachable for a few minutes just down. I didn't think to check if I could reach mastodon.social at the time. # 14:05 Gargron i am getting some slow responses from m.s. one of the servers is probably kaputt again # 14:11 lambda are there group mechanisms in AP? # 14:12 Gargron i dont see anything preventing you from expressing such a thing in AP # 14:16 cwebber2 Gargron has it right, though you can also use a Collection and then users can use the Add/Remove verbs to move users in and out of there # 14:20 xmpp-social [ajordan] There's an interesting bug open about it in the pump.io issue tracker too # 14:20 xmpp-social [ajordan] With some discussion # 14:23 Gargron cwebber2: is the ccg meeting in 30min? cause it wasnt 23min ago.. # 14:25 Gargron dang what timezone was the 16:00 in?! # 14:26 Gargron it's 16:23 for me right now # 14:28 cwebber2 context for #social, I'm presenting on ActivityPub and the paper I wrote about "even more decentralized activitypub", and Mastodon's implementation of Linked Data Signatures, and etc on the CCG call today # 14:29 xmpp-social [ajordan] Ahhhhhh timbl joined the channel
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# 17:03 Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, KevinMarks, timbl, cdchapman, csarven, xmpp-social, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, jankusanagi_, sandro, MMN-o, cwebber2, ajordan, wilkie, dwhly, Loqi, # 17:03 Zakim ... bigbluehat, jet, rhiaro, Gargron, oshepherd, bwn, nightpool, trackbot, jaywink, sknebel, tsyesika, astronouth7303, puckipedia, raucao, mattl, DenSchub, saranix, aaronpk, # 17:03 cwebber2 tantek: first thing to do is to review last week's minutes # 17:06 tantek PROPOSED: approve minutes ttps://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-08-29-minutes # 17:07 cwebber2 tantek: sandro was not convinced changes were not normative # 17:07 Loqi [marten-de-vries] #119 'the hub terminates the subscription' # 17:08 cwebber2 sandro: julian said some reassuring things, I guess we're in the land of "I need to ask Ralph" because it looks probably ok to me but it's not up to me # 17:08 cwebber2 tantek: the best we can do is provide Ralph with enough background and information to make a judgement call # 17:08 cwebber2 sandro: I wish we didn't have to, it doesn't fit in the process; if we say it doesn't need a new CR it doesn't involve ralph until we do another PR # 17:09 cwebber2 sandro: if we say this is not a normative change and it turns out we're wrong, we won't know until we go back, kind of a rude way to find out # 17:10 cwebber2 sandro: how we've been doing in the last year is to ask Ralph for advanced ruling but I've done that like 4 times.... I guess it's time for another one though. or we could make another normative draft but aaron and julian aren't here # 17:10 cwebber2 sandro: and aaron hasn't weighed in on the normative aspect yet # 17:10 cwebber2 tantek: aaron deferred to julian's comment when I asked him # 17:10 cwebber2 tantek: julien hasn't answered the question of whether it's normative or not, just about whether it'd break # 17:11 cwebber2 sandro: my interpretation is it is a change in behavior, but a change during failure, so it won't break things that are working # 17:11 cwebber2 tantek: I guess that depends on how normative / well defined our error handling is # 17:11 cwebber2 sandro: since it only comes up in an error condition that shouldn't break anything that was working before # 17:11 cwebber2 sandro: where it hurts is if it says it was conformant # 17:12 cwebber2 sandro: also we're only talking about hubs, a pretty small audience for now # 17:12 cwebber2 tantek: yes and we're talking about the assertion that existing hubs are compatible with this change # 17:12 cwebber2 sandro: that was my closing comment, make sure the hub-masters were all okay with it # 17:12 cwebber2 tantek: I think you're right that it's a weakness in the w3c process about normative changes for error conditions... # 17:13 cwebber2 tantek: there are 2 things going on. 1) I don't think it's affecting interop when things work, which is the point of interop # 17:13 cwebber2 tantek: however, the handling of errors is where we often find security and privacy problems in computer systems in general. so if I were Ralph that's what I'd ask, how would it affect security and privacy if at all. I'd want the group to have an answer to that question before making a ruling. I don't know, I'm just asking it # 17:13 cwebber2 sandro: since it's limiting behavior it's changing a MAY to a MUST # 17:14 cwebber2 sandro: actually it's changing a MAY to a SHOULD... no wait a MUST, the hub MUST keep the subscription alive till the end of the lease duration # 17:14 cwebber2 sandro: we know some are, haven't heard confirmation if all are # 17:15 cwebber2 tantek: this sounds like a normative change since we're tightening the requirements # 17:15 cwebber2 sandro: def a normative change since we're adding a MUST # 17:15 cwebber2 sandro: but it's a normative change that doesn't restart the CR process? # 17:15 ajordan is the problem with a new normative CR that it restarts the CR clock? and editorial updates don't? # 17:16 cwebber2 tantek: CR period is when you're supposed to be making changes based on implementations. We believe this tightening the CR requirements... we believe it's on what implementations do, that the tightening of the requirements will lead to more interop not less. not a new feature, just a tightening of requirements # 17:16 cwebber2 sandro: right... not exactly how I'll phrase it but I think I can make the case # 17:16 cwebber2 tantek: one of the reasons the process tries to make us restart like that is for IPR reasons # 17:16 cwebber2 tantek: that's typically around the scope of a document, what's essential to implement # 17:17 cwebber2 tantek: this is one of those things to implement that way # 17:17 cwebber2 tantek: some random hubmaker could raise an issue though, that's the theoretical problem we have to give a heads up about and ask for a ruling at his level # 17:17 cwebber2 sandro: I think the case simply has to be made that it's not invalidating reviews # 17:18 cwebber2 tantek: I would even say it's a non-substitative normative change # 17:18 cwebber2 tantek: I believe this is one of the things CR is for # 17:19 ajordan * ajordan is the problem with a new normative CR that it restarts the CR clock? and editorial updates don't? # 17:19 Loqi [aaronpk] Previous text:
> Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription.
Proposed text:
... # 17:21 ajordan sandro: maybe "current understanding of impls _known to the WG_"? # 17:21 sandro ajordan, no it's more about in theory -- it shouldnt BE ABLE to break any impls # 17:21 cwebber2 ajordan, btw good practice is to use ',' not ':' during calls to address people otherwise it looks confusingly like you're scribing # 17:22 Loqi [aaronpk] Previous text:
> Hubs SHOULD retry notifications up to self-imposed limits on the number of times and the overall time period to retry. When the failing delivery exceeds the hub's limits, the hub terminates the subscription.
Proposed text:
... # 17:22 ajordan FINALLY got a new laptop and now has a working e key. I feel your pain :P # 17:22 cwebber2 tantek: I'll let you capture this and take it to Ralph accordingly # 17:23 cwebber2 ajordan set the unicode snowman as your delimiter, clearly # 17:23 ajordan or some Unicode character that looks like : but isn't # 17:23 cwebber2 remember when unicode snowman was like the only cool unicode character and unicodesnowmanforyou.com was a big deal # 17:25 cwebber2 sandro: maybe in this case we can discuss this in the context of the PR transition if we're otherwise ready to go # 17:25 cwebber2 tantek: we've been trying to resolve it as in terms of make transition to PR # 17:27 cwebber2 tantek: do you have everything you need to take this PR transition to ralph? # 17:28 Zakim Present: tantek, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, jaywink # 17:28 Zakim sees on irc: RRSAgent, tantek, timbl, cdchapman, csarven, xmpp-social, ben_thatmustbeme, dlongley, jankusanagi_, sandro, MMN-o, cwebber2, ajordan, wilkie, dwhly, Loqi, bigbluehat, # 17:28 Zakim ... jet, rhiaro, Gargron, oshepherd, bwn, nightpool, trackbot, jaywink, sknebel, tsyesika, astronouth7303, puckipedia, raucao, mattl, DenSchub, saranix, aaronpk, bitbear, albino # 17:29 cwebber2 sandro: since it was a normative CR there was a one week hiatus, hopefully will go out thursday # 17:30 cwebber2 ajordan: chris I was going to mention that didn't we change the website so the test suite was more prominently advertised KevinMarks joined the channel
# 17:32 cwebber2 tantek: we have a couple of implementation reports and the spec links here ^^ and that only links to teh template # 17:32 ajordan I'm laughing so hard right now my roommate probably thinks I'm a complete weirdo # 17:32 cwebber2 tantek: I was requesting we actually directly list existing implementation reports there # 17:33 ajordan cwebber2, I can file an issue on GitLab if it'll help you # 17:33 cwebber2 cwebber2: oh yeah and mastodon started rolling out in their CR this week # 17:35 ajordan cwebber2: we talked a lot about the extensions and the tag type # 17:35 ajordan I think we talked about the context as well and LDS as well # 17:35 ajordan the problem is if you ended up linking to the context, like it was this # 17:36 ajordan ... and it didn't have sensitive in the terms and an old instance of Mastodon was running # 17:36 ajordan ... if that old instance cached the context signatures would invalidate because e.g. sensitive would be dropped # 17:36 ajordan ... after that sandro ended up posting a solution # 17:37 Loqi [cwebber] #9 LD Signatures and json-ld contexts which grow # 17:37 ajordan cwebber2: so we're not talking about versioning vocabs, that could be a disaster # 17:38 ajordan it's just the JSON-LD context which gets thrown in every time we add something new to it # 17:38 ajordan so e.g. when Mastodon ships a version with the 1.7 version, if a new version comes out with the 1.8 context then the old version will pull down the 1.8 context and cache it # 17:38 ajordan ... major topic of discussion, ended up having a good solution # 17:38 ajordan ... I think that was the big thing, that resolution actually happened afterwards # 17:38 ajordan sandro: there was another aspect that we didn't resolve # 17:39 ajordan ... we still haven't figured out basically the governance question # 17:39 ajordan ... how do we decide which terms get added to the AS2 namespace and when? # 17:39 ajordan ... in general terms we get it but now we need specific # 17:39 ajordan ... we left that undecided in part because we don't have aaronpk and we think he'd want to be involved # 17:40 ajordan sandro: there is a "general" SocialCG repo with a bunch of high-level technical issues # 17:40 ajordan cwebber2: but we should probably add a new one for the extension process, is that what you're saying tantek? # 17:40 ajordan tantek: yeah that seems like a good idea, I'd like to see these captured somewhere where we can have a threaded discussion # 17:41 ajordan tantek: if it's been scribed we can just do it after the meeting # 17:41 ajordan tantek: sounds good, any other items for today's SocialWG meeting? # 17:41 ajordan sandro: just to follow that up a bit I know Gargron was pushing for this to get in the namespace before they do a release # 17:41 ajordan ... but I think cwebber2 ended up convincing them to do an embedded context? # 17:42 ajordan cwebber2: yeah they ended up doing something like this # 17:42 ajordan ... that question happened so fast and we were kinda on a deadline # 17:42 ajordan ... we said "I guess just use terms that aren't in the AS2 namespace" # 17:43 ajordan ... in the future we should find a more organized way for this # 17:43 ajordan ... e.g. giving people permission to temporarily "lease out" a name that hasn't been specified yet # 17:43 ajordan sandro: it's interesting how much you can't change it later # 17:44 ajordan ... I want to say "oh we can just change this later" but actually Gargron is shipping this to many admins who might not upgrade away from this relase for a year # 17:44 ajordan tantek: definitely good real-world experience on some of the constraints that might shape your process # 17:44 ajordan ... how do you deal with deployed implementations # 17:44 ajordan ... I think these are important questions that whatever process you come up with should answer # 17:45 ajordan sandro: one interesting thing is that historically we said we'd delegate to the CG after the WG shut down # 17:45 ajordan ... it might not hurt to have a resolution on the record saying we definitely delegate # 17:45 ajordan tantek: I think I did that resolution a week ago? # 17:47 Loqi tantek has 72 karma in this channel (385 overall) # 17:48 cwebber2 tantek: we're waiting on updated websub CR/PR but I think we don't need to meet next week # 17:48 cwebber2 cwebber2: I think it'll take 2 weeks for me to get enough on the test suite for the next meeting # 17:49 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been tantek, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, jaywink # 17:49 Loqi ajordan has 18 karma in this channel (19 overall) # 17:52 sandro ohhh, I think my thunderbird problem was my disk being full. it'd be nice if it said that instead of crashing. RRSAgent joined the channel
# 17:55 tantek sandro, a-ha so restarting your computer *did* fix it then (clearing some swap presumably) # 18:00 Loqi [cwebber] #19 ActivityStreams extensions process # 18:00 sandro geez, not github's not working right for me - layout is all messed up # 18:08 sandro I cant find the power switch. someone, get me a toddler. # 18:11 sknebel apparently they broke their CORS policy # 18:11 sknebel blocking their own CSS # 18:14 sknebel or just a missing file from the CDN, not sure. anyhow, it works again for me KevinMarks_ and KevinMarks joined the channel
# 19:58 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed KevinMarks and timbl joined the channel
# 21:15 Gargron i started dabbling in my youtube project (codename "kobold" for now), it's ridiculous how unsure i am about the storage schema now, lol. either i approach it like in mastodon, or i do something different. no clue what's best. afraid to commit same mistakes. eprodrom joined the channel
# 21:29 cwebber2 Gargron: the great thing about that phase is you can make massive experiments and switch things out and you've got no users yet to be upset about the upchurn by a big ol' refactoring # 21:29 cwebber2 Gargron: I look forward to seeing more about MediaKobold ;) # 21:32 cwebber2 Gargron: btw I do think you'll have a lot of fun with postgres + jsonb # 21:37 xmpp-social [ajordan] sandro: the SocialCG org homepage layout used to be borked too; I reported it but I've no idea if it got fixed # 21:38 xmpp-social [ajordan] Gagron: have fun :-) # 21:38 xmpp-social [ajordan] Second systems are great # 21:40 xmpp-social [ajordan] Also sandro cdchapman and KevinMarks joined the channel
Gargron hello
ben_thatmustbeme also 'planning to do'
cwebber2 https://activitypub.rocks/ <- now with the tutorial image
Loqi Strugee made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-09-05]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=104195&oldid=104147
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-social-irc
sandro PROPOSED: The proposed resolution to websub 119 in https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/119#issuecomment-324484700 while normative, does not hurt any interop, does not break implementations, etc, and should not be considered substantive; CR clock should not be restarted
tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/WebSub_PR#Changes_since_CR needs to be updated