2017-10-31 UTC
# 00:14 puckipedia hm. idea for tomorrow: figure out if I can quickly filter collections now # 00:14 puckipedia (answer: yes, I can) xmpp-social and timbl joined the channel
# 08:33 Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub # 08:34 rhiaro ^^ cc ajordan puckipedia csarven bengo erincandescent wilkie aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme tsyesika jaywink Gargron timbl and Loqi joined the channel
# 10:31 ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro, how are we explaining dropping the entire uploading media section as a minor change timbl joined the channel
# 10:55 csarven sandro: Instead of <span class="delete"> and <span class="insert">, why not <ins>/<del> (with optional @datetime)? Is that some ReSpec thing out of the box? # 10:56 Loqi [cygri] htmldiff: A command-line script that shows text changes between two HTML files # 10:59 csarven Aside: TOo ;lazy to lok up but I raised allowing @datetime in ins/del to HTML5 WG, but it probably never made through. Scratch that. # 11:02 Loqi [csarven] #5 Use ins/del elements instead of span with class # 11:16 rhiaro Note to people whose clocks went back at the weekend in Europe... they didn't go back in the US yet.. meeting is an hour earlier # 11:35 puckipedia rhiaro: that diff algorithm is really Fun # 11:42 puckipedia random note, there's no likes/shares defined in the AS2 context? # 11:43 puckipedia jaywink: I mean, the likes/shares @id # 11:43 puckipedia I know AS2 vocab does Like and Dislike :P # 11:44 jaywink I'm kind of scared about starting to impelement AP. I honestly don't understand most of what is discussed here lol # 11:45 jaywink should have time hopefully dec-jan to start tho. hopefully without having to read about json-ld :P # 11:45 puckipedia you should be able to get by without :P # 11:46 puckipedia I would still advice you to run the JSON-LD compaction algorithm on any incoming messages, so you know that 'object' means 'object' # 11:46 rhiaro puckipedia: I don't understand your questiona bout the context # 11:47 puckipedia rhiaro: likes/shares are not defined in the AS2 context, so they get expanded into "_:likes": [{"@value": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams"}] # 11:47 puckipedia well, with own value of course # 11:47 jaywink > so you know that 'object' means 'object' <--- "if it looks like an object, and it acts like an object, it's an object" :P # 11:48 rhiaro I swear I discover something I forgot from the namespace every week # 11:48 puckipedia I just need to unhistory some of my database again # 11:48 rhiaro unless I accudentally removed these when I reshuffled it the other day # 11:48 rhiaro I did a by-eye diff, which is not infalliable. # 11:49 rhiaro could you do me a favour and run through all of the AP terms and see if there are any other missing? # 11:49 csarven rhiaro I'll try to be present for the meeting, but in case I can't make it, please accept my preemptive +1 on advancing the AP spec (with reasonable non-normative changes that the WG agrees with - aka, going with the status quo here) # 11:50 puckipedia rhiaro: let's see if I can do this easily # 11:53 puckipedia rhiaro: okay, if I extract the values from all <code> tags in the editor draft, and remove all those in the @context, I get... likes and shares # 11:53 puckipedia also I'm not in the socialwg, afaik :P # 11:56 puckipedia I think likes/shares are on any object # 11:56 puckipedia the list of Like / Announce (respectively) objects that have that as a specific object # 12:12 jaywink but then if it is on an Actor, is it liking/sharing the actor or a list of likes/shares by the actor? ;) # 12:13 jaywink logs an issue, liking and sharing user profiles sounds like a cool thing to have # 12:20 rhiaro There's no reason we couldn't use a profile as the object of a like or share # 12:28 jaywink yeah I meant logging an issue in my own project tracker, not AP/AS2 ;) # 12:28 jaywink would be a nice way to show things like "who to follow on this server" by looking not only at amount of followers but also likes jankusanagi_, timbl and timbl_ joined the channel
# 13:50 rhiaro cwebber2, it's admirable that you check irc before you're even awake properly. It's okay, we can wait until you've had breakfast :) # 13:50 cwebber2 rhiaro: oh, likes and shares don't need to go there but "shared" should have, but isn't, in that section # 13:51 cwebber2 "liked" and "shared" are what the actor liked/shared as opposed to "likes"/"shares" which are a collection of likes and shares where the object was the subject # 13:51 rhiaro but likes and shares should nonetheless be in the ns? # 13:51 rhiaro k i will put them in the ns before anyone notices *whistles* # 13:52 rhiaro actually i will put them in the ns in a couple of hours # 13:52 cwebber2 I got half of the continuation bug fix for the test suite in last night and then I fried out # 13:56 rhiaro after almost 3 years of WG, I'm easily fried at this point rowan and timbl_ joined the channel
# 14:34 aaronpk something went wrong with the japanese characters, not sure if it's just in the diff version timbl joined the channel
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# 16:38 eprodrom Exciting day! # 16:45 eprodrom So, I started working on a new AP client app to do Foursquare-like checkins # 16:46 eprodrom Lots of interesting stuff needed # 16:46 eprodrom I also set up a server for places and another for hashtags # 16:47 eprodrom Oh, and working on an activitypub-mock for testing Node.js client apps # 16:47 eprodrom I guess we probably need an activitypub library for, you know, actually accessing things # 16:48 Loqi [brooksn] serverless-activitypub: An implementation of an ActivityPub Server. # 16:50 eprodrom Anyway I'll have 4 new implementation reports to do # 16:52 eprodrom Also .pub is the cool TLD for ActivityPub apps # 16:53 eprodrom I did a talk about Dating on the Open Web at MozFest last weekend # 16:53 eprodrom And realized only afterwards that AP has almost all the features you'd want to make it work # 16:53 eprodrom So I might write something up on the subject # 16:56 cwebber2 and I mayyyy have fixed the bug that was plaguing the test suite all last week just in time fo rthe meeting # 16:57 rhiaro eprodrom: I preemptively volunteer to scribe this meeting # 16:58 eprodrom rhiaro, I don't feel that's entirely fair to the rest of the attendees # 16:58 eprodrom rhiaro, ...who all love scribing so much # 16:58 eprodrom rhiaro, but I guess I'll allow it # 16:58 eprodrom rhiaro, just this once # 16:58 rhiaro if someone else *really* wants to scribe, I'll let them, but they have to speak up in the first minute # 17:00 cwebber2 14 passing, 4 explicitly not passing, 8 inconclusive (at least one of those is due to a bug onmy end) # 17:00 cwebber2 puckipedia: from the automated tests against your instnce # 17:00 eprodrom trackbot, start meeting RRSAgent joined the channel
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# 17:01 eprodrom ajordan, watch for the vote! # 17:01 ajordan is currently finishing homework due in an hour :( # 17:02 rhiaro roll up roll up, SWWG meeting starting in T-3 minutes # 17:04 eprodrom sandro, are you joining us? # 17:06 eprodrom scribenick: rhiaro # 17:06 eprodrom chairnick: eprodrom tantek joined the channel
# 17:08 Zakim Present: rhiaro, aaronpk, eprodrom, ajordan, cwebber, sandro # 17:08 Zakim On IRC I see tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, jankusanagi_, Loqi, xmpp-social, aaronpk, dlehn, er1n, cwebber2, adam, dlongley, DenSchub, jungkees, jaywink, raucao, saranix, bwn, # 17:08 Zakim ... erincandescent, wilkie, jet, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, Gargron, csarven, sknebel, melody, ajordan, mattl, bigbluehat, surinna, KjetilK, bitbear, howl, dwhly, tsyesika, # 17:08 Zakim ... astronouth7303, sandro, nightpool, trackbot, puckipedia # 17:10 rhiaro cwebber2: sandro put together a diff of changes since the last CR # 17:10 Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub # 17:10 Loqi [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub # 17:10 rhiaro ... we do have one .. the most major is the dropping mediaupload stuff # 17:10 tantek That counts as a normative change, but we don't have to restart CR because it was marked at risk. # 17:11 rhiaro ... aside from that, we also moved the auth stuff off-spec # 17:11 ajordan question: I spotted a "(Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.)" changed to "(Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet)." (note the period) # 17:11 rhiaro ... everything else was things that were pretty minor # 17:11 rhiaro ... we had a few issues, they're all non substantive # 17:12 rhiaro ... one I didn't do this morning so it's not in the diff, but I'd like to get it approved # 17:12 rhiaro ... the likes collection wasn't listed as a property, but is part of the spec # 17:12 rhiaro ... I'm going to add that there, I wanted the group to see it before I did it # 17:13 Loqi [jaywink] #203 Linked Data Signatures + public key URI # 17:13 rhiaro ... One is not really affecting things in the spec # 17:13 rhiaro ... Just so everyone knows, this has already been handled, I left it open because we had agreed I'd make specific changes to the wiki page in the CG, so I left it open to remind myself # 17:13 Loqi [yvolk] #260 Relation between Actors and Users of servers is undefined # 17:13 rhiaro ... amy and I spent a substantial amount of time. We talked about it a few weeks ago # 17:14 rhiaro ... We resolved that we would clarify that there's not specific mapping of one user to one actor in the spec and wouldn't do anything further # 17:14 rhiaro ... I thougtht hat was going to be it, but the commenter was not satisfied # 17:14 rhiaro ... there's been much further conversation about needing to explain very carefully this concept of 'account' and we spent a lot of itme trying to figure out what they meant # 17:14 rhiaro ... even within the last couple of changes amy and I got in a clear exlpanation that's non-normative that explains how accounts are actors, and can be humans or bots etc. I hoep that satisfies them but I'm not sure # 17:15 rhiaro ... This has gone on for only 50 messages and in circles for a while # 17:15 rhiaro ... We did have a resolution that was incorporated # 17:15 rhiaro ... I'd like to get some group.. if you haven't read it.. well... I think we've done the very best we can to try to capture everything this person has said without adding vocab. Even the commentor agrees on not adding vocab # 17:15 rhiaro ... I'd like the group to approve we close this even if the commentor specifies they're not satisfied, because I don't thinkw e can do better at this point # 17:16 rhiaro tantek: the first question I would ask (I haven't read the issue since the additional messages) is there any way to distill what if any new information was added to the issue since we did a group resolution? # 17:17 rhiaro tantek: I understand the points before, but I'm trying to understand if there's new information subsequently # 17:17 rhiaro cwebber2: it switched from talking about users to talkinga bout accounts # 17:17 rhiaro ... there was a lot more clarificationa bout why they thought this was really important # 17:17 rhiaro ... I feel like a lot of it went to discusisng about how accounts in the system are really important to have the domain modelling of, and they also feel that this in some way not specifying is missing # 17:19 rhiaro rhiaro: Agree with chris. A lot of the comments are rephrasing the same information for clarity. A lot belongs in the CG, and the commentor agreed on some of that too # 17:19 rhiaro tantek: the reason I ask a question like that is at some point if we're not getting new information we can resolve it in the group and we can note that if it appears the commentor is not satisfied # 17:20 rhiaro ... it should be okay if we've done our due diligence # 17:20 rhiaro ... that being said, my understanding is we don't have anything about account management in any of our specs as far as I know, si that correct? # 17:20 rhiaro ... by account management I mean creating an account, setting your background image, setting up email, etc. We don't model any of that do we? # 17:20 rhiaro cwebber2: we don't, aside from the most basic detail like your name # 17:21 rhiaro tantek: we have name and image, but that's it. That's abou tthe actor not about the account, I would argue # 17:21 rhiaro ... the way that I would try to resolve this in a productive fashion is saying account management is important and we don't have it in the current spec, it would be a great extension # 17:22 rhiaro eprodrom: since we moved auth to the CG, that is where account interaction would normally live, so that's something more CG oriented # 17:22 rhiaro ... that might be what satisfies the commentor # 17:23 rhiaro rhiaro: we already said in the spec that this stuff is important and should be discussed as an extension in the CG # 17:23 rhiaro cwebber2: we could resolve that we've done what we can with this and move oveflow to the CG and ask the commentor if they're satisfied and mark it one way or the other # 17:24 cwebber2 PROPOSED: Resolve issue #260 as having completed relevant changes to ActivityPub itself, and move additional modeling decisions to SocialCG # 17:25 rhiaro <rhiaro> but did y'all *read* the relevant changes? :) # 17:25 tantek thought we already did them? like they're not ne2 # 17:25 eprodrom RESOLVED: Resolve issue #260 as having completed relevant changes to ActivityPub itself, and move additional modeling decisions to SocialCG # 17:26 rhiaro cwebber2: So the signatures one is not one that touches the spec, and 260, 266 is the only change we'd make since the diff in terms of issuing a new CR # 17:27 rhiaro ... I'd like to propose we publish a new CR with changes from 266 # 17:27 cwebber2 PROPOSED: Issue new CR of ActivityPub incorporating change proposed in issue #266 # 17:29 eprodrom RESOLVED: Issue new CR of ActivityPub incorporating change proposed in issue #266 # 17:30 rhiaro eprodrom: this meeting was really for getting this CR out so I think we are .. # 17:30 rhiaro eprodrom: voting deadline is extended to 12 Nov, remind your AC reps # 17:31 rhiaro ... would anybody object if I put down amy as an author on the spec? # 17:31 eprodrom cwebber2 that sounds fine # 17:31 rhiaro ... she's done a tremendous amoutn of work refactoring last year and in closing issues etc, I feel like it's been enough # 17:31 rhiaro eprodrom: unless there are any objections, chris do that # 17:32 eprodrom trackbot, end meeting # 17:32 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been rhiaro, aaronpk, eprodrom, ajordan, cwebber, sandro, tantek # 17:32 Loqi rhiaro has 161 karma in this channel (283 overall) # 17:32 Loqi rhiaro has 162 karma in this channel (284 overall) timbl and rowan joined the channel
# 19:17 puckipedia <cwebber2> I fixed the continuation barrier bugs!!!! <- :D # 19:19 Loqi [brooksn] serverless-activitypub: An implementation of an ActivityPub Server. # 19:23 puckipedia I know someone who is working on edge computing and tbh I think Kroeg fits well in there :P # 19:28 cwebber2 puckipedia: "serverless" is a kind of awkward buzzword imo # 19:33 puckipedia cwebber2: I mean, I could define Kroeg as 'serverless', it has no concept of servers :P # 19:35 cwebber2 "serverless" here I think refers to the term used to deploy an AWS "serverless" application... which of course has servers, you're just abstracted away from them somewhat # 19:38 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed # 19:46 puckipedia cwebber2: hm? oh right lemme see if this fixed itself # 19:46 puckipedia oh and I trhink I fixed *that* issue # 19:46 puckipedia let's look at the spec # 19:47 puckipedia liked is correct for the actor? # 19:47 puckipedia wait I still have likes on kroeg.azurewebsites.net, duh # 19:48 puckipedia (that is still pre-quad store) # 19:48 puckipedia cwebber2: also I'm thinking of filter collections now # 19:49 puckipedia (for socialcg extension or so) # 19:52 puckipedia how about ... to filter a collection that contains type Create/Announce: {"filter:contains": { "type": ["Create", "Announce"] }, "filter:excludes": { "actor": "https://example.com/user" } }} # 19:53 cwebber2 I guess if limited in the maximum number of items returned... # 19:53 cwebber2 I wonder if there are some queries that could be used to overload the server? # 19:53 puckipedia worst case it'll generate a huge SQL query :P # 19:56 puckipedia I would probably put these on the OrderedCollection together with a "filter:basedOn": "otherId", then filter those filter: results from the returned object # 19:56 puckipedia anyways, I already have arbitrary filtered collections, I do audience checks in the DB # 19:57 puckipedia but yeah, it'll be somewhat unfeasible for some # 20:01 puckipedia also I still have this secret "blocked" collection # 20:02 puckipedia I could probably magick it away by now # 20:07 cwebber2 when's the next SocialCG meeting? we're planning a face-to-face meeting at TPAC on Monday but not many people from here will be there for it probably # 20:07 cwebber2 given TPAC it may be hard to schedule the usual wednesday call # 20:08 cwebber2 aaronpk: well you could chair the normal SocialCG call if you wanted to next week? or what should we do? # 20:20 cwebber2 I guess I could probably find time but it's hard to know what's happening on plenary day since iirc it's one big unconference # 20:22 cwebber2 I guess I should pull the upload media tests out of the test suite anyway since that's being defined by the socialcg and is wip # 20:22 cwebber2 too bad, that was like one of the most annoying tests to write ;P # 20:26 cwebber2 too bad, those were the hardest ones to write! oh well. # 20:27 cwebber2 I think the remaining issues are actual issues, and a few of them look easy to solve # 20:29 puckipedia hm, one second(TM) # 20:36 puckipedia wow a lot is inconclusive # 20:36 puckipedia aaand blocked/blocks is not fixed yet on my side :< # 20:37 puckipedia well I did switch out the entire database # 20:37 puckipedia the Update test says 'unexpected server error', the Follow test as well # 20:37 puckipedia .. the Create one too??? # 20:38 puckipedia I did kiiinda replace everything in the backend # 20:39 cwebber2 ah, so differentthan running against kroeg.azurewebsites.net # 20:39 puckipedia I'll reset kroeg as well to the new store # 20:39 puckipedia the azure one # 20:39 cwebber2 well make me feel better and look against the old one first ;) # 20:44 puckipedia okay so I think the reason collections don't work # 20:44 puckipedia is because I assume OrderedCollection lol JanKusanagi, tantek and jankusanagi_ joined the channel
# 22:05 cwebber2 puckipedia: btw "blocked" appears to accidentally be labeled as b0 for the user I was testing against after the db update # 22:06 puckipedia ... I didn't fix that yet on the server # 22:06 puckipedia that's a side effect of the RDF generation # 22:07 cwebber2 I'm also getting an error when I try to submit content # 22:07 puckipedia hm. try again? # 22:08 puckipedia I just opened the logstream # 22:08 puckipedia I don't even get logs huh JanKusanagi and timbl joined the channel
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puckipedia hm. idea for tomorrow: figure out if I can quickly filter collections now
rhiaro Hey folks, we're voting on a new AP CR today to ship the last month's editorial changes. There's a colour coded diff courtesy of sandro here: https://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/diff/activitypub/20170907-20171030.html If you have time to familiarise yourself with the changes before today's meeting, that would be awesome.
Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-10-31]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=104884&oldid=104850
ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro, how are we explaining dropping the entire uploading media section as a minor change
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/10/31-social-irc
tantek just as additional info for that issue, note the Account Management issues (partially) documented for Twitter that are likely worth modeling https://indieweb.org/Twitter#Features
cwebber2 see note on https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#likes