2018-05-09 UTC
cwebber2, Guest84, cdchapman and cskau joined the channel
# 05:23 dansup that image queue processed a 12mb image into a 250kb image! xmpp-social, Guest84, vasilakisfil, mahmudov, ben_thatmust, fr33domlover, vasilakisfil_, bwn and cskau joined the channel
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# 14:08 ajordan Gargron: FWIW we have something like that in pump.io-land # 14:08 Loqi [e14n] ofirehose: Firehose for the federated social web vasilakisfil and Guest84 joined the channel
# 14:45 aaronpk cwebber2: i can't make the call today, hoping you can take over eprodrom joined the channel
# 15:01 eprodrom calling in in 30s # 15:02 cwebber2 nightpool, ping since I put you on the agenda at your request :) # 15:09 eprodrom I owe a lot of back scribing from chairing WG meetings # 15:09 ajordan eprodrom: I can scribe while we talk about AS2 PRs # 15:09 cwebber2 how do I meeting, I seem to have completely forgotten # 15:10 eprodrom Yeah, that's weird mahmudov joined the channel
# 15:10 eprodrom Can we get along without it? trackbot joined the channel
# 15:11 trackbot Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. # 15:11 eprodrom The topic is empty too # 15:11 eprodrom I just noticed # 15:11 eprodrom Oh noooooooooooooo # 15:12 trackbot Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. # 15:12 eprodrom Can we just tell trackbot to start the meeting anyway? # 15:12 eprodrom Oh I guess not # 15:12 eprodrom "f you have a teleconference scheduled with Zakim, trackbot can help prepare the IRC channel for that meeting." # 15:13 cwebber2 ======== MEETING STARTS, THANKS A LOT TRACKBOT ======== # 15:13 eprodrom [11:13] == No such nick or channel name: Zakim # 15:13 eprodrom curiouser and curiouser # 15:14 Loqi [cwebber] #461 Document the extension process # 15:14 ajordan cwebber2: okay so nightpool did something very helpful, lemme pull it uup # 15:16 ajordan <ajordan> one might almost say nightpool is putting the federation in # 15:16 nightpool one sec while I read the backlog # 15:17 ajordan <ajordan> long ago eprodrom revoked my standards license and that really should have been enforced ;) # 15:17 ajordan cwebber2: nightpool just sent me a message on Mastadon saying oh **** I overslept so they'll be here in a minute # 15:18 ajordan cwebber2: nightpool you were asking what's first on the agenda; since you weren't here we actually started with the AS2 extension teminology. the second one # 15:18 ajordan ... this is very helpful; one thing I'm noticing about this is that there are a lot more extensions than I was anticipating which is good, I guess # 15:19 ajordan ... what I'm wondering is, are they being embedded with every object that's sent across the wire or are they being linked to as contexts that you retrieve? # 15:19 ajordan nightpool: kroeg and hubzilla do the former, plemora/mastadon/??? do the latter # 15:19 ajordan cwebber2: it's useful to know that there's a mix of both # 15:20 ajordan cwebber2: so eprodrom have you looked adt this list? I wonder what your thoughts are since there are a bunch of items we haven't even discussed making extensions yet # 15:20 ajordan ... I have different feelings on different things on here # 15:20 ajordan ... some of them are interesting... a lot of this is just redefining AS2 stuff, hashtag etc. # 15:21 ajordan ... others are interesting in that they're mixing in well-known vocabularies, schema.org is in here # 15:21 ajordan ... that one's interesting in that, should we make that available right in the context # 15:21 ajordan ... just add in schema.org, vcard, etc. to save a couple lines in here # 15:21 ajordan ... it's a little bit of a permission, suggestion, guidance # 15:21 ajordan ... there are some that are clearly experimental or focused on the particular implementation # 15:22 ajordan ... it's probably a good idea to not fish too far into ones that are clearly experimental or implementation-focused and instead kinda let those bubble up as they become more used across system # 15:22 ajordan ... looks like the mastadon one *is* being used across systems so I'd love to see what those elements are # 15:22 nightpool q+ to talk about "redefining as namespaces" # 15:22 ajordan ... but I think more focused specific ones should live in their own systems # 15:23 ajordan ... and let me also say this is the first time I'm looking at this so it's just impressions # 15:23 ajordan ... last one is that ostatus namespace, seems like it's a backwards compatibility thing # 15:23 ajordan ... I would not be thrilled about incorporating ostatus, I feel like we're trying to build a replacement for it # 15:23 ajordan ... if there's stuff in there we can't do we should add it # 15:24 ajordan cwebber2: I'm not even sure all those terms are terms in that namespace # 15:24 ajordan ... I remember talking to Gargron and we were like well they're just in the ostatus namespace, who cares what's in there # 15:24 ajordan nightpool: same thing and you can explain it better than I can cdchapman joined the channel
# 15:25 ajordan ... about the ostatus namespace I don't care if that's clobbered but there's some stuff not in the as2 namespace yet # 15:25 ajordan nightpool: yes, it's there so the canonicalization algorithm works # 15:26 ajordan cwebber2: so which of these things can we push forward to get in the editor's draft and the context # 15:26 ajordan eprodrom: we don't ever want to change the editor's draft of the vocab context # 15:26 ajordan ... it is a shipped document and we do not modify it, it would be misleading to people to have an ED that doesn't match the shipped document # 15:26 ajordan ... we're not working on a next version of AS right now # 15:26 cwebber2 q+ to say okay, at least we discussed putting an extensions page in that repo at least # 15:26 ajordan ... whether we make new documents is an interesting discussion but yeah it's definitely a good idea # 15:27 nightpool q+ to talk to ostatus:conversation # 15:27 ajordan ... cwebber2 I wonder if there's a mechanism we could provide as a way of defining extensions # 15:27 ajordan ... like, I am working on an AS system and I've created a set of things around role playing games and I'd like to create a namespace that's like socialcg:rpg to start experimenting in # 15:27 ajordan ... and we could give a nod to that and say here's a namespace # 15:28 ajordan ... and then people could start building on that so we have a mechanism for people to start experimenting in # 15:28 nightpool (reminder that the w3 wiki is not editable by community group members, only WG members) # 15:28 ajordan ... and then we can discuss bringing them into the main as namespace if they have a lot of implementations, getting them in the context , etc. # 15:29 ajordan cwebber2: I think we're retreading some conversations we had without any of the AS2 editors present which was a mistake # 15:29 ajordan ... I think last time we agreed that the AS2 Git repository and issue tracker was where we were discussing pulling in extensions # 15:29 ajordan eprodrom: that makes a lot of sense, absolutely, and I think that namespacing... # 15:29 ajordan ... in this gist you've got there's personal URLs for namespaces # 15:30 ajordan ... if I look at this I'm not gonna say that looks like the W3C people are experimenting with a new namespace for conversations # 15:30 ajordan ... what I see is there's a guy named ??? and he's experimenting with nomadic locations # 15:30 ajordan ... I think there's some value in using a namespace that carries some infor # 15:30 nightpool (totally fine!) # 15:30 ajordan ... I wanna try to make some movement on this convo since nightpool is queued # 15:31 ajordan ... it sounds like you're ok with having extensions documents and contexts(?) in the AS2 repo # 15:32 ajordan cwebber2: my impression was that last time we decided to keep stuff in a repo but maybe I'm wrong # 15:32 ajordan nightpool: I think we made that decision based on the fact that W3C wiki isn't editable by non-members anymore # 15:32 ajordan cwebber2: the systems team has said that's what's happened # 15:33 ajordan cwebber2: we could, I'm not against this, but part of the argument for issues/PRs was that it would be a work flow we're familiar with as developers # 15:33 ajordan ... it sounds like we don't have a resolution on this but I want to switch to nightpool # 15:33 ajordan nightpool: yeah so summarizing the ostatus thing Mastadon switched from ostatus to AP and we needed some context terms # 15:34 ajordan ... so e.g. if we got an edit for an ostatus post we had to associate that with the original ostatus URL # 15:34 ajordan ... the ostatus:conversation is something we're seeing people using even if they didn't do an ostatus migration because it lets you associate posts in a thread # 15:35 ajordan ... that's something that maybe needs rescuing from the ostatus namespace and put somewhere else # 15:35 ajordan eprodrom: that makes sense, I'm capturing in an issue # 15:35 ajordan ... I can think of a couple of existing terms that might fit there but none that are specific for "conversation" # 15:35 ajordan ... it's really only important if you're doing massively hierarchical threading, just being able to link things up to the original post # 15:35 ajordan ... if you're doing flatter threading it's less important # 15:36 ajordan ... it's something we dropped going from statusnet -> pump.io, we had massive hierarchical threading in statusnet and most of the ux suggestions right now are "don't do that"f # 15:36 ajordan ... I want to come back to cwebber2's question, there's kinda three rings # 15:37 ajordan ... if there's something specific to pump.io we'd use a pumpio namespace # 15:37 ajordan cwebber2: and you'd probably have it on pump.io's domain right? # 15:37 nightpool zot:nomadicHubs is an example here, I think # 15:37 ajordan ... I think there's a next ring in, stuff that might have multiple implementations, where we may want to have a way of defining namespaces for those # 15:38 ajordan ... socialcg:voicechat, socialcg: different kinds of subnamespaces # 15:38 ajordan ... that might be useful for people to start working together and collaborating on # 15:38 nightpool toot:Emoji or as:manuallyApprovesFollowers is probably an example for the middle ring # 15:38 ajordan ... and then a last kind of inner ring for things that are going to be part of the as namespace # 15:38 cwebber2 q+ to ask for where these socialcg-* namespaces live, also if terms *can* move in # 15:38 ajordan ... and we agreed to put extensions in the as namespace eventually # 15:38 ajordan ... and I think things would move through those rings # 15:38 nightpool and as:sensitive sounds like an example of something that's pretty solidly in the inner ring. # 15:39 ajordan ... we have a wiki page listing extensions, I think that would get us pretty far # 15:39 ajordan ... so for where the socialcg namespaces live I'm guessing you're saying they're not necessarily a subnamespace of as2 right? # 15:39 ajordan eprodrom: that might be a good way to do it actually # 15:40 ajordan cwebber2: I think one of the condcwerns that sandro had is that it can be very hard to get terms to migrate # 15:40 ajordan ... once people are used to terms being in a specific location it's kinda hard to update code to alias it and not necessarily all systems will update to do that # 15:40 ajordan ... the problem sandro raised with that is that you end up getting a lot of little namespaces # 15:40 nightpool (heads up that I have a hard out at 11:50) # 15:41 ajordan ... and about things moving in I think he objected that ??? # 15:41 ajordan ... maybe what works with the subnamespaces thing is that there's an expectation that we're not gonna move it # 15:42 ajordan ... I don't want to support any bullshit terms that people make up # 15:42 ajordan ... there's a level of dumping stuff onto editors and the CG that I would like to have a little bit of an acceptance level # 15:42 ajordan ... it would be nice to have something that's a low barrier to entry # 15:43 ajordan ... and you can work on your context. then say you get multiple implementations, etc. then we can move into the main namespace # 15:43 ajordan ... they'll still resolve into the same URL, but you can use the namespace or not # 15:43 ajordan cwebber2: note that there's a difference between vocab locations and context locations # 15:44 ajordan ... if we add stuff to the main as2 context that doesn't mean we have to change the location for the vocab # 15:45 cwebber2 ajordan: since we're talking about moving things... nevermind, what I was going to say is another problem we can look at is starting to use an HTTP header, and then there's X-content-security-policy AND content-security-policy... I think that's resolved by putting things in the context and not moving the vocab itself # 15:46 cwebber2 eprodrom: if it's okay with you I'll document this process, and maybe we can review it at the next meeting? # 15:46 ajordan cwebber2: sure that's fine with me, nightpool sorry we took over # 15:46 ajordan ... should we queue Mastadon stuff for the next meeting? # 15:46 ajordan nightpool: I can go over it in like 5 minutes, it's not super important # 15:46 ajordan ... the main thing is that we've added pin collections # 15:47 ajordan ... it accepts add/remove from the owner and is federated out # 15:47 ajordan ... we added a focal point property for images to affect where they center # 15:47 ajordan ... and we've added a way for reporting statuses, if a user reports a status they can also optionally send that to a mod of another server # 15:48 ajordan cwebber2: ok great so sounds like we have next steps for the first topic, eprodrom's gonna write that up, and nightpool thanks for the overview # 15:48 ajordan ... they're primarily errors in examples in the vocab document # 15:49 ajordan ... and one that's a typographical error in one of the property definitions # 15:49 ajordan ... so I've done four PRs that add these to the errata so when you look at the errata it'll say oops there's a problem with this example, a problem with that example # 15:49 ajordan ... these all come from bugs people have filed on AS2 # 15:49 ajordan ... since we can't actually change the docs this is the next best thing # 15:50 ajordan ... I'll note that even though as2 is done we can keep a community report even though it's not an editor's draft # 15:50 ajordan ... the CG has the authority to maintain... I'm forgetting what they're called # 15:50 ajordan eprodrom: so you'd look at AS on GitHub and if would be different with no mark that it's been added later # 15:51 ajordan cwebber2: you _can_ mark it, JSON-LD has a good way # 15:51 ajordan ... it seems like a really bad idea, why would we maintain 3 documents # 15:51 ajordan cwebber2: I'm fine with that, you're the editor, I just wanted to note it was an option # 15:52 cwebber2 ajordan: I believe you volunteered to put up the minutes :) # 15:53 ajordan I just need the laptop for mumble because I don't have root on the work computer # 16:02 ajordan before we forget does someone want to ask in #sysops or somewhere about how we can get trackbot fixed? or is that a question for sandro? # 16:07 ajordan oh also cwebber2 at the start of the meeting I was gonna mention that FWIW I too am getting ready to move across the country and I feel your pain :P # 16:14 ajordan please review them, there are probably typos because I edited them by hand # 16:15 ajordan at this point I've done this so many times it really probably is worth making a program to do it tantek joined the channel
# 16:49 tantek is going to be Berlin next week - anyone else here going? # 16:53 eprodrom cwebber2: is that kind of what you were looking for? # 16:53 cwebber2 eprodrom: sorry, was distracted by external drama, reading now # 16:57 Loqi [cwebber] > Possibly add the namespaces to the AS2 context document. It's not clear what the acceptance criteria for this would be. It would work like so:
I would say it's easy enough to link in another AS2 context that's "fully formed" like this, no need ... # 17:00 tantek wishes cwebber2's external drama resolves itself peacefully # 17:08 eprodrom cwebber2: OK, I'm going to maybe move that comment out to a wiki page on the AS2 wiki # 17:08 eprodrom ...and close the issue # 17:42 ajordan cwebber2: back from University of Rochester to Seattle! vasilakisfil joined the channel
# 19:55 nightpool I'm back now, in case anyone has followup questions from this mornings meeting # 19:59 Loqi [cwebber] > Possibly add the namespaces to the AS2 context document. It's not clear what the acceptance criteria for this would be. It would work like so:
I would say it's easy enough to link in another AS2 context that's "fully formed" like this, no need ... cdchapman and fr33domlover joined the channel
vasilakisfil, JanKusanagi, jankusanagi_ and cdchapman joined the channel
dansup Gargron: yeah, I'm really liking how powerful redis is. I also use it for a sidekiq-like queue. https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/003/820/987/original/adeff71357c2cf1d.png
trackbot Sorry, cwebber2, I don't understand 'trackbot, start meeting anyway'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
cwebber2 TOPIC: What extensions do we need to add to the AS2 editor's draft? https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues/461
ajordan but on the other hand, https://xkcd.com/1319/
Loqi [XKCD] Automation https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/automation_2x.png