#social 2018-08-08
2018-08-08 UTC
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# 
tuxether[m] out of curiosity, what would a replacement for json-ld be?
# tuxether[m] or was the point that extending AS2 via JSON-LD isn't necessary at all?
# dansup yes, I dont think its necessary for S2S
# dansup pixelfed will not do anything with LD, its just plain json for mastodon & pleroma support.
# dansup I see the value of LDS for C2S but that should be optional
# dansup ActivityPub is a great protocol, and I appreciate the work everyone has put in. I think we can come to a consensus that encourages a more simple protocol for new implementations
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# JasonRobinson[m] > <kaniini_> why should i believe that i will be treated any differently than evanp or mike macgirvin
# JasonRobinson[m] not this stuff again, sigh...
# JasonRobinson[m] litepub??
# saranix yeah that was a waste of a few hours
# JasonRobinson[m] > ActivityPub is a great protocol,
# JasonRobinson[m] AP is more of a framework than a protocol, for good and bad
# JasonRobinson[m] would be great if someone made a clear spec on top of AP that works for specific use cases and is clearly documented including signing, delivery etc. then people could expand it to whatever they need but could easily create apps that interop
# kaniini that is precisely what litepub intends to be
# JasonRobinson[m] kaniini: is it something that has been started or is it just an idea?
# JasonRobinson[m] is interested
# kaniini yes, it is started. we are having meeting this saturday to set specific timelines and goals for MVP.
# kaniini litepub is not meant to be competitive to activitypub, but instead to bring more rigidity to the s2s side
# JasonRobinson[m] where can I follow the work or participate?
# kaniini #litepub on freenode
# JasonRobinson[m] 👍
# kaniini #freenode_#litepub:matrix.org
# kaniini our basic plan is to create a rigid profile of activitypub for real-world s2s applications, that is easy to implement and minimalist. no JSON-LD, etc.
# JasonRobinson[m] makes sense to me
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# kaniini csarven well, that is the goal of litepub
# kaniini it is meant to be a rigidly defined profile of AP that if an implementor follows, there will be no missing pieces
# kaniini hopefully, the AP spec will be able to refer to litepub in the future as a profile that is useful for implementors
# kaniini i'm open to collaborating, but i believe a separate working group is the only way forward. i feel strongly that JSON-LD advocates would disrupt any attempt to defang JSON-LD from the spec.
# kaniini and, to be clear, my issue isn't even JSON-LD itself, it's @context
# kaniini we intend retain extensibility support in a way that JSON-LD parsers would be able to leverage effectively
# kaniini just, without @context :)
# 
tantek kaniini - there is no longer any working group in this space. The Social Web WG closed earlier this year: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg
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# tuxether[m] > and the two specifications may interoperably combined.
# tuxether[m] is that grammatically correct?
# pantherse kaniini, what exactly is your point of brining litepub up with this group? You were offered a chance to voice your opinions through the proper forum; but, you shot it down. Then you make statements like "whoever were invited to draft the initial spec clearly lacked real world experience engineering these things"
# pantherse You say you want to collaborate; yet, you take on a combative tone. I know I'm coming across as a jerk; but, I'm trying to figure out what's going on here exactly.
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# kaniini pantherse i believe there are some in the audience who agree that activitypub needs to become a more rigid standard, wrt the S2S protocol. what i am not interested in is hearing about why activitypub / activitystreams need to be semantic, use JSON-LD, etcetera.
# kaniini pantherse i do not believe that the W3C mechanisms in terms of SocialCG can deliver a rigid specification that is usable for implementors to create robust and secure AP software. some proposed opening a bug to strip all JSON-LD discussion from the specification, but this is deflection: everyone in the room knows that the bug / pull-request will absolutely be rejected, because the proposed solution to the problem "but i need semantics in my AP message
# kaniini parser" would be "no you don't, because you have to handle the side effects regardless"
# pantherse Then why keep beating this issue over the brow? I'm not trying to pick a fight as I'm still learning about ActivityPub; but, I want to understand the hostility coming from you as someone weighing my options.
# kaniini i'm not beating this horse anymore, i have called it dead and moved on, hince litepub.
# kaniini there are areas where collaboration are possible, in terms of defining future additions to activitystreams vocabulary, for example
# kaniini and, it is possible that litepub itself could become the basis of an activitypub 1.1 specification in the future. who knows.
# kaniini but i do not believe the SocialCG can incubate a rigid specification. every attempt to discuss steps about bringing rigidity have been met with deflection or fantasy hypothetical scenarios that will never actually happen where rigidity may be harmful.
# kaniini i also strongly believe rigidity is the only way to deliver a protocol that will truly deliver on the promise of universal interop in the real world
# kaniini many projects are presently stalling on federation because figuring out what paths to take is too hard, due to activitypub lacking rigidity.
# saranix pantherse: "as someone weighing my options." mind telling us what you're building?
# saranix kaniini: "many projects are presently stalling on federation because figuring out what paths to take is too hard" -> this has been going on for like a decade and predates activitypub by far
# saranix kaniini: but I see what you're saying, that activitypub has failed to fix the situation
# kaniini no
# kaniini pixelfed, for example, exists because activitypub promised universal federation
# kaniini but it's stalled, because it turns out that the lack of rigidity makes federation support unattractive to code
# kaniini i can point to every single project on the fediverse besides Plume in the past 6 months. they all stall when it comes to federation.
# saranix right, but you're ignoring all the projects that stalled because the only "federation" was openid/pingback/rss/etc. -- it's an old problem
# kaniini yes, and that's more specs that lack rigidity
# kaniini ActivityPub *is* an improvement over OStatus, for example
# kaniini it is hard, but the solution is rigidity
# kaniini i mean separation of optional aspects from the core protocol
# kaniini and "there is only one way to do it" for the core protocol
# saranix I have a counterargument to rigidity. That's how we end up with something that can only microblog, or can't understand nomadic identity
# kaniini saranix that's why specs move.
# kaniini saranix and litepub is extensible in the exact same way as activitypub
# kaniini you can do json-ld without @context, so we can present litepub extensions as activitypub extensions, without @context
# kaniini but yet, normal JSON consumers can clearly understand them too.
# pantherse saranix, I'm working with a group that wishes to do an ActivityPub-based system along the lines of the old USENET system. The primary target audience are open source software developers; so, we don't always have to rely on commercially-owned collaboration platforms like github or slack.
# tantek I have a read a similar critique of "optional JSON-LD" by Henri Sivonen: https://hsivonen.fi/no-json-ns/ - I'm curious how much this overlaps or is different from the current criticism.
# pantherse Our current path is to implement using ActivityPub, with options to expand later.
# kaniini pantherse well, the point of litepub is to produce specs that can be used by actual developers to create something which will work
# kaniini in other words, litepub provides the answers that activitypub doesn't
# kaniini is the plan
# kaniini it also restricts JSON-LD to the point where it is only used for extensions, and only in a format where it really is just normal JSON if you want it to be
# tuxether[m] JSON-LD is sort of difficult to implement in a statically typed language like Haskell.
# kaniini correct, hince why litepub tames it :)
# saranix pantherse: what group is this? do you have anything to look at yet (even user requirements list)?
# kaniini anyway have to run for now. bye. litepub is not meant to be combative, but instead a specification which builds ontop of activitypub and gives implementors the actual answers they need to work with the software already out there.
# pantherse saranix: Here's the project page https://newguard.icei.org/hathi-project/
# pantherse I still need to get in touch with cwebber2.