#social 2019-03-27
2019-03-27 UTC
timbl, decentral1se, Guest84, up201705417 and xmpp-social joined the channel
# 
fr33domlover Hmmm if someone is mentioned in a Note, should they automatically be deliverd any further replies to that Note?
# fr33domlover Or only receive Notes that explicitly mention them?
# cjslep[m] If a person is in the "to", "cc", "bcc", or "bto" then deliver it to them. Otherwise if you start delivering to other actors on other properties, you're setting yourself up to have interoperability problems. It should be possible to talk about someone without delivering it to them.
# fr33domlover cjslep[m], I'm not asking about servers, I'm asking about a whole system with both client and server :) So, there's nothing in "to" and "cc" unless we put it there, that's what I was asking about ^_^
# fr33domlover I guess your answer is no, mentioning shouldn't entail being added to anything
# trwnh fr33domlover: it entirely depends on your implementation. in mastodon, mentioning = addressing. but in other systems it's possible to mention someone without sending to them. it's up to you to determine if being mentioned should mean being added to the delivery audiences (b)to/(b)cc
# trwnh so what ends up happening is mastodon inherits the addressing due to inheriting the mention, when you reply. but you can drop the mention to not deliver to that person
# cjslep[m] fr33domlover I am too. If the client adds a mention but not that person to a "to", the server is broken if it still sends the Activity to the mentioned person
# trwnh so it should be possible for a client to define addressing independently of who is mentioned, in the purest terms
# cjslep[m] So your specific client can always enforce that a mention guarantees that person is in the "to", but you can't enforce that on every client nor server side
# fr33domlover cjslep[m], sure, that's fine
# fr33domlover trwnh, I agree :) What I was asking though, is a human interface question: If someone is mentioned, would they like to be notified on future comments in the same discussion? It's kind of like if you're mentioned in a GitLab issue comment, do you get notifications on new comments there? Hmmm I'll check :)
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# rialtate[m] > <@irc_fr33domlover:cybre.space> trwnh, I agree :) What I was asking though, is a human interface question: If someone is mentioned, would they like to be notified on future comments in the same discussion? It's kind of like if you're mentioned in a GitLab issue comment, do you get notifications on new comments there? Hmmm I'll check :)
# rialtate[m] I don't think that is the common expectation... Only if they interact with it. It probably would be easy to abuse if you did that anyway.
# fr33domlover rialtate[m], I think the same! But I prefer to check and be sure ^_^
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# hellekin sorry jaywink[m] but this has to happen. https://ps.s10y.eu/@how/101823823451315165
# hellekin Please follow the link and figure out what's happening for yourselves.
# nightpool[m] I still have zero idea what socialhub actually is
# hellekin nightpool[m]: it's a Discourse instance started by a bunch of mostly French people and AP free software projects, where some AP discussion has been going on. It's a complement to this channel really, or should be since it's web-based, therefore more accessible to non-techies than IRC.
# hellekin nightpool[m]: socialhub.network received attention at FOSDEM 2019 since it was proposed during the AP round table to use it.
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jaywink[m] > <@irc_hellekin:cybre.space> sorry jaywink[m] but this has to happen. https://ps.s10y.eu/@how/101823823451315165
# jaywink[m] I'll wait for the results ;) How many thousand server admins can you get to boost it?
# jaywink[m] nightpool: Feneas wants to help maintain and improve SocialHub, since we think there is no point running many federated web forums (unless they federate ;)). hellekin (IRC) doesn't like us because our rules say "non-political association".
# hellekin jaywink[m]: it's not a matter of quantity. I'd like that you realize for yourself how impossible your "apolitical" stance is when you do this. A friend of mine was commenting "bah, there's always a split between open source and free software", I had to remind him: "this is a split between proprietary software and free software".
# jaywink[m] the link he posted has a bit more
# hellekin yup
# hellekin at least we agree on this ;P
# hellekin thanks for the boost. This is getting hilarious.
# jaywink[m] I boosted your toot for some extra visibility it will need
# jaywink[m] FTR I think we should work together not fight against each other
# hellekin I'm super happy to work with you when you realize the asymmetry between proprietary and free technologies. You can't assume the same goes when you're dominant and when you're oppressed. I know you don't want to think like this, but to many on the Fediverse this makes a lot of sense, because they're not just bits, they're people with awareness of privilege and oppression.
# hellekin Don't worry, you're not alone: even Bradley Kuhn and Karen Sandler made a terrible appearance at last FOSDEM's keynote speech telling people that it's OK to live with proprietary software and BTW that would be nice if they could work on free software projects on their free time.
# nightpool[m] i'm not sure i understand why we should care about feanes or their beliefs on federated technology
# nightpool[m] *feneas
# nightpool[m] I definitely don't think dragging it into an extended IRC fight is a good move
# nightpool[m] (nor is it likely to solve anything)
# hellekin nightpool[m]: it's not about the fight, but about the awareness of the thing happening. If you're concerned you should go to the Discourse and argue there. Just wanted to spread the news. I will shut up now.
# dansup hellekin: why do you care so much about socialhub? You could always start your own forum like mxb and I did ;)
# dansup some people have their own like Mastodon and funkwhale is moving to loomio
# rialtate[m] Lols. And there actually are several AP options now, plus roll your own.
# rialtate[m] That's the beauty of open standards and federation.
# jdormit[m] Yeah is anyone working on a federated forum? That should be the friendly online place discuss fediverse stuff, right?
# rialtate[m] I've seen a handful of group projects here and there besides our own
# hellekin jdormit[m]: Discourse has plans
# rialtate[m] S/group/Group actor/
# rialtate[m] Surely Discourse will be just as underwhelming as nextcloud. Everyone always has Plans™. But I have seen actual work being done by others.
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# gwalchmai Hi y'all! I'm working on converting Facebook activity feed data to ActivityStreams and I'm curious why AS doesn't seem to have Object types like "Post" or "Status" (according to the docs). I haven't seen json-schema schemas for such object types either. Am I missing something? Was this intentional because it seemed to Facebook-specific?
# jdormit[m] Generally Note is used for those sorts of things, it's more abstract so it can convey a broader range of things that are "short notes posted by users"
# gwalchmai yeah, i thought Note was the closest thing, it just feels kind of weird, particularly for "status"
# rialtate[m] Semantically Status is basically like a dynamic profile field if you think about it. Doesn't really make much sense to be an object amongst other objects IMHO. the activity of changing it, however...
# rialtate[m] OTOH, ActivityStreams treats Location as separate objects I think? And semantically it's a dynamic profile field too.
# rialtate[m] Maybe not. Have no idea what I was thinking of now.
# rialtate[m] Hmm. What is the proper way to encode a location (Place) on a Note? I mean like hubzilla/diaspora/frendica/farcebook style
# gwalchmai yeah, the activity of changing it is where my head's at -- a "status update" is definitely a thing that I would want to publish and also see over time
# jdormit[m] It is definitely not super intuitive. I kind of liked it after I thought about it though, semantically speaking there's no real difference between a Facebook post and a tweet and a Mastodon toot
# gwalchmai thinking back to AIM days where you could set your status to be something like "listening to chillax music", which i think you can do in other social platforms today, it definitely feels like a dynamic profile field, which maybe doesn't need it's own activity. it seems related to what you can do in facebook now though, which is create a "post" which is actually a status update that says something like "Feeling grateful for ramen"
# gwalchmai i personally like the idea of treating status changes as their own activity, but maybe Note and profile fields are good enough abstractions and platforms can implement how it handles them differently...
# gwalchmai on that note, is there an ActivityPub/ActivityStreams activity for publishing a change to your profile?
# rialtate[m] Hah. Update requires full object, not ideal
# cjslep[m] Update
{ ... }# gwalchmai whaaa we need some PATCH option there
# gwalchmai ^.^
# rialtate[m] gwalchmai: and if you keep pulling on that thread you need object versioning, then authoritative DAG, race resolution, etc
# gwalchmai 😅
# cjslep[m] What's wrong with updating a Profile object?
# rialtate[m] > <@cjslep:feneas.org> What's wrong with updating a Profile object?
# rialtate[m] I mean by the time you're done with TLS negation, a gazillion HTTP headers, etc. 100k of bandwidth to update a 30byte status isn't that bad I guess LOL
# rialtate[m] Negotiation
# cjslep[m] If replacing a whole object with Update is unacceptable, then that's an entirely different beastly can of worms to open. I wouldn't recommend opening it, especially if the goal is simply "I just want to change my status".
# gwalchmai feeling apprehensive about statuses
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