#social 2019-07-20
2019-07-20 UTC
xmpp-social and hellekin joined the channel
# 
jaywink[m] Question re "quoting a note" ie twitter like functionality for retweeting with a custom note - any opinions? https://talk.feneas.org/t/how-to-quote-notes/104
# 
nightpool[m] Announce with `#content`?
# jaywink[m] hmmm. not sure, that seems to make the content pretty second class, it wont even have an ID like a `Note` will do. it feels more that it would be an independent note referring the announced noted 🤔
# nightpool[m] why wouldn't it have an id??
# jaywink[m] well the Announce would have an ID
# nightpool[m] I think retweet-with-note is correctly implemented by adding content to the Announce
# nightpool[m] another way, if you want to match twitter's model more closely, is to have the referenced tweet as an `attachment`, but then you have to deal with notifications in a more special-case-y way
# nightpool[m] something more complicated then retweet-with-note, like tumblr's reblog system, I'm not sure is representable without extensions
# jaywink[m] > <@nightpool:cybre.space> another way, if you want to match twitter's model more closely, is to have the referenced tweet as an `attachment`, but then you have to deal with notifications in a more special-case-y way
# jaywink[m] this is the way heluecht proposes for friendica
# nightpool[m] I've considered nested announces, but there are some problems with the gap between "left a comment on" and "just reblogged" (you don't want to recurse through ~100s of activities to display the ~10 with comments, but you need to keep them all around because Tumblr let's you see who anyone reblogged something from)
# nightpool[m] jaywink: I don't really like the attachment model because it means notifications aren't backwards compatible
# nightpool[m] you have to special case "someone attached your post" as a type of notification, and it's not what the user is expecting (they're expecting "retweeted with comment")
heluecht[m] joined the channel
# heluecht[m] Every system can work with this instantly.
# heluecht[m] nightpool: I prefer this attachment thing since it is backwards compatible. It's just a regular note (with a link in the message itself) and an attachment.
# nightpool[m] I guess it's a matter of which backwards compatibility you care more about
# nightpool[m] from a safety and notification perspective, I care more about the user whose content is getting shared
# jaywink[m] either way context will be lost for someone
# nightpool[m] since it's really easy to abuse these types of systems
# heluecht[m] What do you mean with abuse in that relation?
# heluecht[m] And notifications: Well, doesn't that depend on the notification system?
# nightpool[m] using Announces/retweets/links to drive harrassment and brigading
# heluecht[m] But isn't that independent from this here?
# melody sorta but not really
# heluecht[m] Concerning notifications: Friendica doesn't even know notifications for being reshared.
# heluecht[m] I do see a huge problem with notes added to announces. These quotes are often used not to support the quoted message but to critize it. When a system then only would display the announce (without the note) then the whole context was missing.
# heluecht[m] For example: When I quote a message from Trump, adding some comment about how stupid this post had been, an incompatible system would only display the resharing of that Trump post.
# heluecht[m] csarven (IRC): never worked with web annotations
# heluecht[m] aaronpk (IRC): this is exactly my idea.
# nightpool[m] that's how twitter implements it technically, but I disagree that that's the semantic intent they're trying to convey
# heluecht[m] Twitter had been doing so to be compatible with older clients.
# nightpool[m] also, like I said, neither attachments or Announces with content work for more complex systems like tumblr reblogs
# heluecht[m] I never understood tumblr reblogs.
# heluecht[m] I like to keep stuff simple.
# nightpool[m] I mean it's perfectly simple on tumblr, it's just not representable well in as2
# heluecht[m] Do we have to do it like Tumblr?
# nightpool[m] no, but seeing as I'm implementing a federated version of Tumblr, I need to come up with some of these answers
# heluecht[m] For now I thought that these reblogs are simply reshares without any annotations at all.
# 
csarven heluecht[m]: Different ways to do it. See simple example: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#example-20 .. and you can use that as a URI as well eg. https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-html/#example-using-blockquote-and-q-tags , and see URI like https://csarven.ca/dokieli-rww#selector(type=TextQuoteSelector,prefix=ose%20a%20centralised%20mechanism%20for%20,exact=social%20interactions,suffix=%2C%20and%20allows%20users%20to%20effectivel) .. there can be
# csarven different motivations as well (some come with the vocab but you can use your own: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#motivation-and-purpose
# csarven See also the example I wrote here https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#example-using-multiple-vocabularies
# heluecht[m] csarven (IRC): can you create an example for quoting some AP note?
# heluecht[m] How does this look in AP?
# heluecht[m] I meant "Note in ActivityPub". I'm mostly very unclear in standards :-)
# heluecht[m] BTW: I'm very bad in understanding standard descriptions as well.
# heluecht[m] nightpool: how are the reblogs looking alike on Tumblr? What's making them so special concerning to other systems?
# nightpool[m] heluecht: the main constraint is that any use can leave comments and it gets added to the "trail" of comments on that post
# nightpool[m] but you also need to keep track of the specific user you're reblogging from even if they didn't leave a comment, so you can't just drop that info
# csarven I think what you are thinking of this https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-note .. "Note" is one of the objects/concepts/terms/whateveryouwanttoexpress... is part of the AS2 vocab. AP is a protocol that uses AS2.
bralyclow joined the channel
# heluecht[m] csarven (IRC): Yeah, Note, Article, ... whatever.
# heluecht[m] Just don't take me too literally, just try to understand my intention :-)
# heluecht[m] I'm really very bad in understanding how the standards are written. So I'm really, really bad in trying to interpret them and to make something new out of it.
# heluecht[m] I'm also having a very short attention span - which doesn't help in trying to read lengthly descriptions - especially when they had been written in a foreign languahe.
# heluecht[m] language.
bralyclow joined the channel
# cjslep[m] I think you're fine... We all have different mental models of what ActivityPub actually is/does
bralyclow joined the channel