#social 2019-07-20

2019-07-20 UTC
xmpp-social and hellekin joined the channel
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jaywink[m]
Question re "quoting a note" ie twitter like functionality for retweeting with a custom note - any opinions? https://talk.feneas.org/t/how-to-quote-notes/104
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nightpool[m]
Announce with `#content`?
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jaywink[m]
hmmm. not sure, that seems to make the content pretty second class, it wont even have an ID like a `Note` will do. it feels more that it would be an independent note referring the announced noted 🤔
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nightpool[m]
why wouldn't it have an id??
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jaywink[m]
well the Announce would have an ID
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nightpool[m]
I think retweet-with-note is correctly implemented by adding content to the Announce
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nightpool[m]
another way, if you want to match twitter's model more closely, is to have the referenced tweet as an `attachment`, but then you have to deal with notifications in a more special-case-y way
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nightpool[m]
something more complicated then retweet-with-note, like tumblr's reblog system, I'm not sure is representable without extensions
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jaywink[m]
> <@nightpool:cybre.space> another way, if you want to match twitter's model more closely, is to have the referenced tweet as an `attachment`, but then you have to deal with notifications in a more special-case-y way
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jaywink[m]
this is the way heluecht proposes for friendica
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nightpool[m]
I've considered nested announces, but there are some problems with the gap between "left a comment on" and "just reblogged" (you don't want to recurse through ~100s of activities to display the ~10 with comments, but you need to keep them all around because Tumblr let's you see who anyone reblogged something from)
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nightpool[m]
jaywink: I don't really like the attachment model because it means notifications aren't backwards compatible
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nightpool[m]
you have to special case "someone attached your post" as a type of notification, and it's not what the user is expecting (they're expecting "retweeted with comment")
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heluecht[m]
Every system can work with this instantly.
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heluecht[m]
nightpool: I prefer this attachment thing since it is backwards compatible. It's just a regular note (with a link in the message itself) and an attachment.
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nightpool[m]
I guess it's a matter of which backwards compatibility you care more about
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nightpool[m]
from a safety and notification perspective, I care more about the user whose content is getting shared
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jaywink[m]
either way context will be lost for someone
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nightpool[m]
since it's really easy to abuse these types of systems
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heluecht[m]
What do you mean with abuse in that relation?
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heluecht[m]
And notifications: Well, doesn't that depend on the notification system?
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nightpool[m]
using Announces/retweets/links to drive harrassment and brigading
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heluecht[m]
But isn't that independent from this here?
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melody
sorta but not really
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heluecht[m]
Concerning notifications: Friendica doesn't even know notifications for being reshared.
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heluecht[m]
I do see a huge problem with notes added to announces. These quotes are often used not to support the quoted message but to critize it. When a system then only would display the announce (without the note) then the whole context was missing.
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heluecht[m]
For example: When I quote a message from Trump, adding some comment about how stupid this post had been, an incompatible system would only display the resharing of that Trump post.
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csarven
jaywink[m]: re quoting: AS2 + Web Annotation
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heluecht[m]
csarven (IRC): never worked with web annotations
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aaronpk
It's not even a repost, it's a new post that happens to link to another post
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aaronpk
Twitter happens to display the linked post expanded out so you don't have to click through
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heluecht[m]
aaronpk (IRC): this is exactly my idea.
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aaronpk
And I 100% agree you wouldn't want it to fall back to be a repost for exactly the reason mentioned
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nightpool[m]
that's how twitter implements it technically, but I disagree that that's the semantic intent they're trying to convey
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heluecht[m]
Twitter had been doing so to be compatible with older clients.
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nightpool[m]
also, like I said, neither attachments or Announces with content work for more complex systems like tumblr reblogs
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heluecht[m]
I never understood tumblr reblogs.
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heluecht[m]
I like to keep stuff simple.
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nightpool[m]
I mean it's perfectly simple on tumblr, it's just not representable well in as2
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heluecht[m]
Do we have to do it like Tumblr?
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nightpool[m]
no, but seeing as I'm implementing a federated version of Tumblr, I need to come up with some of these answers
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heluecht[m]
For now I thought that these reblogs are simply reshares without any annotations at all.
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csarven
different motivations as well (some come with the vocab but you can use your own: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#motivation-and-purpose
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csarven
heluecht[m]: Combining AS2 and WA works great
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heluecht[m]
csarven (IRC): can you create an example for quoting some AP note?
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aaronpk
nightpool[m]: I'm also talking about what it literally looks like in the UI
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csarven
The target in that Create activity/notification can be whatever as you know
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heluecht[m]
How does this look in AP?
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csarven
What's an "AP note" as opposed to as:Note?
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csarven
What do you mean by "look"?
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heluecht[m]
I meant "Note in ActivityPub". I'm mostly very unclear in standards :-)
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heluecht[m]
BTW: I'm very bad in understanding standard descriptions as well.
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heluecht[m]
nightpool: how are the reblogs looking alike on Tumblr? What's making them so special concerning to other systems?
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nightpool[m]
heluecht: the main constraint is that any use can leave comments and it gets added to the "trail" of comments on that post
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nightpool[m]
but you also need to keep track of the specific user you're reblogging from even if they didn't leave a comment, so you can't just drop that info
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csarven
I think what you are thinking of this https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-note .. "Note" is one of the objects/concepts/terms/whateveryouwanttoexpress... is part of the AS2 vocab. AP is a protocol that uses AS2.
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heluecht[m]
csarven (IRC): Yeah, Note, Article, ... whatever.
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heluecht[m]
Just don't take me too literally, just try to understand my intention :-)
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csarven
I think there are plenty of samples in the links above that you can dig through =) The last URL has the eaxmple for a super simple Note. If you want to send or consume like that, you can look into AP
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heluecht[m]
I'm really very bad in understanding how the standards are written. So I'm really, really bad in trying to interpret them and to make something new out of it.
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heluecht[m]
I'm also having a very short attention span - which doesn't help in trying to read lengthly descriptions - especially when they had been written in a foreign languahe.
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heluecht[m]
language.
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cjslep[m]
I think you're fine... We all have different mental models of what ActivityPub actually is/does
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