#social 2020-11-16

2020-11-16 UTC
cwebber2`, ilmu1, ilmu3, sl007 and paul joined the channel
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sknebel sl007: I understand the IANA wording as "don't submit things before they are actually a thing people use" - i.e. document it somewhere and get people to start using it, then submit. (and tbh being in the registries doesn't do that much in the end either way, so I wouldn't treat it as a priority. It's not like some software will not work because it's not on those lists)
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sl007 yes, the SocialCG meetings were documented and "It's not like some software will not work", off course but it is handy cause of the initial discussion https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/defining-alsoknownas/907 –
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sl007 and I thought then we can specify it at the same time like "alsoKnownAs" and just link to the registry and specify something like https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#endpoint-discovery –
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sl007 like https://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml -> micropub
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sl007 That would also be handy for indiereaders cause they could deal for Discovery in the same way …
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sl007 I mean: ActivityPub is used by millions, if that is what they are afraid of. Count All The Votes.
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sl007 ^ sknebel
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rhiaro sl007: afaik you can also use a URL as a rel value without needing to register it anywhere, if that helps, so https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#Actor might be the right value for your rel="activitypub" use case? (If I'm following correctly what you want with that)
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sknebel you can also just specify/start using one and then submit to the registries
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sknebel once you have something to point to that is actually a thing
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sknebel the registries (are supposed to) document what is there, not bless entries beforehand
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sl007 rhiaro But how to convince the mammoth to use it? I am trying to preach that they should at least use/support/fallback all AP Types since a long time but it failed like Dinslaken …
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sl007 sknebel agreed but fear other clients do not support it …
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sknebel does anyone really complain that it's not in the rel-registry before considering to use it?
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rhiaro I agree with sknebel to be honest sl007, if people are resistant to using it they presumably don't get anything out of it, and whether or not it is in a registry isn't going to make a difference
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sknebel getting people to support new ideas is sadly difficult, but that shouldn't be a big hurdle
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rhiaro sl007: to "convince the mammoth" we need to see what they would be able to do / interop with that they can't currently
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sknebel ("that" = being in the registry or not)
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rhiaro in general, we need to churn more and more diverse AP implementations that do cool things out so implementations that fall behind are missing out
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sknebel right, and that's much more the "write down a clear proposal that a) tells people what they gain and b) how to do it (so you avoid interop hell where possible)" step
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sl007 I mean it is nice if my 2 users' websites then say to 4 million who they are. But wouldn't it be nice if 4 million websites can tell my users who they are too?
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rhiaro I think at some point sl007 you went from wanting rel=alsoKnownAs to also wanting rel=activitypub and I missed that addition - maybe because I missed the meeting on Sat (sorry again!)
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rhiaro where does rel=activitypub go on a mastodon profile?
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sl007 that was about naming, cause "micropub" is specified people might be more familar w. "activitypub" and my wish was
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rhiaro practically speaking I"d have thought rel=inbox and rel=outbox (or the equivalent URLs) would make more sense for endpoint discovery - because those endpoints are distinct. (The former is how endpoint discovery in LDN is done, one way, so that's already spec'd - https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/#discovery) The micropub endpoint is specifically a posting/publishing endpoint, not a profile, which is equivalent functionality to the AP outbox
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sl007 that it can link to the JSON-LD of Actor Profile or Objects
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sl007 thinks
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rhiaro sl007: in faaaact if you curl -I https://rhiaro.co.uk/ I already use rel="outbox" (in the http header, can't remember if I put that in the html on the homepage or not)
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sl007 nearly convinced
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rhiaro and you'll notice it points to the same place as my rel=micropub because that end point in theory can process both types of requests, although I think micropub is broken at the moment
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sl007 agreed
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rhiaro and then my clients use the rel=outbox to look for where to post AP requests to - except they don't, cos I started refactoring the endpoint discovery out into a library years ago and never finished - but one day :D
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rhiaro sl007: I might start working on this stuff again soon. I've recently been feeling like I might be recovering enough from burnout to think properly about these things again and actually feel interested in it once more... but baby steps
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sl007 rhiaro Know that, chasing your toots closely :)
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rhiaro sl007: the use case for rel=outbox in mastodon profiles would be so that other (eg standalone) clients could post to a mastodon server if the person could auth with that server through that client. That would be amazing! If there was a diversity of clients (easy to make) that could use masto as the backend (hard to make). But that needs masto to also implement the AP C2S API properly, a bigger task
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rhiaro sl007: not sure about rel inbox though, depends how masto's endpoints are set up for the federation stuff, not looked into it, but there might be something there
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rhiaro sl007: actually scratch that first part - rel=outbox is also for reading, so on a masto profile it should point to something that gives you the latest feed. That's also useful, for a separate reader, not just clients to write
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sl007 rhiaro : That could work like redaktor is implementing the coolest Open Source Client and mastodon makes it even cooler cause FOSS …
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sl007 Thank You - let's convince cwebber to schedule a next meeting …
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sl007 p.s. just btw: Great parts of the world (and “many of us” – Muntz N.) is currently recovering from burnout. HOPE …
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sl007 booyakasha
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sl007 Thank You rhiaro
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nightpool[m] fundamentally agree w "if people are resistant to using it they presumably don't get anything out of it, and whether or not it is in a registry isn't going to make a difference"
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nightpool[m] This would be a very easy PR for me or Gargron to accept if it adds some new functionality or interop that we didn't have before, and a difficult one to accept if we don't even know who's going to use it or how
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