#social 2021-05-21
2021-05-21 UTC
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dmitriz heads up: SocialWeb CG weekly meeting is in ~30 mins! :) At https://bbb.w3c.social (with a fallback to Jitsi if people have connection problem)
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# dmitriz er, specifically: https://bbb.w3c.social/b/rhi-vp1-fv6-vn7
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RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-social-irc
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# syndic-will[m] Hi I will be just a few minutes late but I'm coming
# dmitriz np
# dmitriz starting meeting at https://bbb.w3c.social/b/rhi-vp1-fv6-vn7, come on over everyone.
# Grishka where's Sebastian?
# dmitriz scribe+ dmitriz
# dmitriz welcome everyone, might be a super quick meeting today
# dmitriz let's do quick re-intros
# dmitriz Robert: hi everyone. I know Dmitri from the Open Metaverse Interop Group. I'm super interested in ActivityPub and how it applies to Metaverse tech
# dmitriz grishka: I'm interested in AP because I'm fed up with attention economy tech, and want ppl to have social networking that's free of all these commercial interests that hurt the modern net
# dmitriz Will: I'm a developer of Immerspace, an AP server for Immersive Web Experiences (Metaverse)
# dmitriz Robert: (intro to the Open Metaverse Interop Group)
# dmitriz ... I'm acting chair now, but we're doing Chair nominations and elections
# dmitriz ... over at https://github.com/omigroup/OMI/discussions/17
# dmitriz ... a little about the group: we're working on specs & protocols on Metaverse interop
# dmitriz ... which basically means - VR/AR; you should be able to go between various servers and virtual experiences, and take identity / inventory / social graph with you, seamlessly
# dmitriz ... so basically, open ecosystem of data
# dmitriz Will: Robert, are you looking specifically for nominees from SocialCGs?
# dmitriz Robert: sure, we're open to different possibilities. I think that someone from this group should definitely have active involvement with the group
# dmitriz ... either as chair, or as whatever else
# dmitriz ... since OMI definitely wants to work with SocialCG, not to duplicate efforts, etc. And we're interested in ActivityPub specifically
# dmitriz q+
# dmitriz Robert: other tech has been brought up - Matrix for chat, DIDs (Decentralized Idnetifiers) for identity, that sort of thing
# dmitriz ... and we're interested in interop between those and ActivityPub.
# dmitriz ... so, in short: please nominate for chairs!
# dmitriz ack dmitriz
# syndic-will[m] Dmitri: suggestion re nominatoins if group still gathering momentum
# syndic-will[m] ... not sure if all good chair candidates have heard of the group yet may be idea to take backoff approach to chairs
# syndic-will[m] ... meaning set short term for first chairs (e.g. 1mo, 3mo) to get things started
# dmitriz Will: Dmitri, quick question - is it common to have cross-pollination between CGs like that?
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# dmitriz dmitriz: yes, very much so
# dmitriz update on PROPOSAL: Rank choice meeting times for the weekend SocialCG Meeting
# dmitriz dmitriz: ok, that's it for our formal agenda.
# dmitriz ... other suggestions / questions / topics?
# dmitriz Robert: question about the ecosystem
# dmitriz ... what are the major SocialCG / ActivityPub implementations out there, aside from mastodon?
# dmitriz Gregory: I'm working on an AP type server, Smithereens (sp?)
# dmitriz ... it's not easily approachable (I'm incubating it for now before wider publishing). I'm a few features away from feature parity with Mastodon
# dmitriz ... but it's definitely pushing boundaries there
# dmitriz dmitriz: I also want to mention the express-activitypub server
# dmitriz Will: right, so, activitypub-express, and GoFed Activity (sp)
# dmitriz ... which are general-purpose libraries implementing AP
# dmitriz ... and everything else is a full stack approach, like Mastodon, Pleroma, Smithereens
# dmitriz ... but these two (-express and gofed) are lightweight general purpose libs
# dmitriz ... oh, and I'll also mention my other project, Guppy
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# dmitriz ... if you look up an actor, it'll create one immediately & return to you. if you mention an actor, it automatically re-shares
# Grishka q+
# dmitriz ... this implements lightweight groups
# dmitriz whoops
# dmitriz ack Grishka
# dmitriz Grishka: Smithereen has native support for groups as well
# syndic-will[m] https://github.com/immers-space/activitypub-express
# dmitriz rhiaro - boooo zakim :)
# dmitriz thanks for the catch
# syndic-will[m] https://gup.pe
# syndic-will[m] q+
# dmitriz Grishka: not compatible with Mastodon though
# dmitriz dmitriz: other implementations?
# syndic-will[m] https://github.com/go-fed/activity
# dmitriz ack
# dmitriz Robert: I think it's ok for people to use subsets of AP. it poses the question of - what's the minimal useful AP subset? that still feels interoperable?
# dmitriz ... that has the goals of the community in mind?
# dmitriz ... so for example, right now we're discussing identity
# dmitriz ... if we only implemented the Actor object -- is that a good start? will that be useful, by itself?
# dmitriz Grishka: I think there's one important thing
# dmitriz ... if two implementations have features that intersect, they really should be interoperable
# dmitriz ... for example, if two impls have Wall Posts, they should really work together
# dmitriz ... same with Groups, forum-style discussions, so on
# syndic-will[m] dmitri: bring sup question of protocols v data models
# syndic-will[m] ...
# syndic-will[m] ...ap is lightweight protocol, but projects must also share vocab/data models
# syndic-will[m] ... there's room for profiles of specs or meta specs. there's a reason we having meetings to do work to see what the minimal subset is
# syndic-will[m] ... to answer Robert's q, what is the minimal subset is something a lot of people ae asking
# syndic-will[m] ... e.g. should Mastodon compat be the base or should it be a discussion in the socialhub forum
# dmitriz Grishka: the really minimum AP implementation is - an Actor object that has an Inbox. and that's it
# dmitriz Robert: that's a good place for us to start!
# dmitriz ... if we can just get a single place to pull identity (profile like stuff)
# dmitriz ... stuff like display name, url to an avatar model, that sort of thing. super basic, but really useful to us
# dmitriz Grishka: interesting, since you're relying on 3D avatar models - is there a single format for those?
# dmitriz Robert: no, there's many. I worked on GLTF for example
# dmitriz ... and that's becoming the defacto transmission standard
# dmitriz ... there's lots of /authoring/ standards, but as far as trasmission, to use at runtime, it's basically standardizing on 3-4 main ones
# dmitriz ... FBX
# dmitriz ... which is Autodesk's format
# dmitriz ... which is under their control. (so, not necessarily as appealing for open standards)
# dmitriz ... you've got OBJ, which is not a compressed format, and not a lot of 3d material features. but, very popular
# dmitriz ... it's like the CSV of 3D
# dmitriz ... and then you have what Apple has been doing with USDZ
# dmitriz ... developed at Pixar, offline rendering at animation studios, etc
# dmitriz ... so the -Z variant of it is, for the most part, under Apple's and Pixar's control
# dmitriz ... but, GLTF is gaining a lot of deployment
# dmitriz ... on Sketchfab, etc
# dmitriz ... internally at MSFT, FB
# dmitriz ... so, very wide adoption
# dmitriz ... then there's an avatar-specific subset called VRM, coming out of a lot of the hype around what are called "V-tubers",
# dmitriz ... which are video content creators that are piloting VR avatars, livestreaming etc
# dmitriz ... so they've made this avatar format in that industry, which is making its way into game studios and so on
# dmitriz will: one thing we can do with json-ld and activitypub is -- we can do content negotiation
# dmitriz ... and specify multiple formats
# dmitriz will: do you know if anybody is doing that?
# dmitriz Robert: I know there are multiple platforms that support multiple avatar formats
# dmitriz will: I meant on the AP side
# dmitriz grishka: I tried
# dmitriz robert: is it coming for images & video? doing conneg?
# dmitriz grishka: yes. so for example, I store images in webp internally. and settled on serving them as jpg, since that's what everyone is guaranteed to understand
# dmitriz dmitriz: jpg, not png?
# dmitriz grishka: ah no, png is lossless compression
# dmitriz ... don't want huge files
# dmitriz dmitriz: yeah, that's the challenge with content negotiation
# dmitriz ... it's great, but also... rarely used
# dmitriz ... people just use lowest common denominator
# dmitriz Robert: yeah, that's happening in the VR world as well
# dmitriz ... default material types, etc
# dmitriz ... so you can specify custom ones, with generic callbacks
# dmitriz (fallbacks)(
# dmitriz grishka: the thing about WebP is that many languages have standard libs on it
# dmitriz ... like, Java doesn't have it built into the standard lib, I had to use external
# dmitriz humbletim: observation - conneg is a complex dance
# dmitriz ... that doesn't seem to be used that often. but also, remember how many emergent web browsers there were in the formative web
# dmitriz ... whereas in the Metaverse, we literally have hundreds of different platforms
# dmitriz ... so, conneg becomes THAT much more important
# dmitriz ... because hundreds of different user agents
# dmitriz dmitriz: that's a really good point!
# dmitriz robert: has this been a challenge in the fediverse/AP community? with images and video content?
# dmitriz bengo: not sure
# dmitriz bengo: I feel like conneg is sort of built into AP
# dmitriz ... in terms of the Accept header. so, you could throw mime types on there etc
# dmitriz dmitriz: robert, do GLTF and other formats have their own mime-types yet?
# dmitriz robert: gltf does, VRM does not (it's a superset of gltf)
# dmitriz humbletim: even if the negotiation was more of a rejection, that would be useful too
# dmitriz ... like "here's an avatar, it's GLTF, also VRM"
# dmitriz ... so a receiver would know up front, whether they'd be capable of handling it etc
# dmitriz dmitriz: yeah, +1
# dmitriz ... also brings up our eternal favorite topic of Server Capability Discovery
# dmitriz robert: yeah, being able to query capabilities of, say, avatar providers, will be useufl
# dmitriz dmitriz: yeah, this is also a pain point / interest topic in the fediverse in general
# dmitriz dmitriz: question about OMI group - are there regular calls?
# dmitriz robert: yeah, Weds at 9am Pacific
# dmitriz ... and there's a calendar link on the github repo
# dmitriz https://github.com/omigroup/OMI
# dmitriz dmitriz: any other questions/topics?
# dmitriz dmitriz: ok, thanks everyone! see you on other calls!
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