#social 2023-03-29
2023-03-29 UTC
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# 
PHB hello
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# jaz says hi
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# 
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-irc
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# 
tantek Meeting: Social Web Incubator Community Group https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG
# identitywoman present+
# eprodrom present+
# 
KevinMarks present+
# KevinMarks I volunteer to scribe
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# AaronNGray Q+
# KevinMarks johannes: can we doa. show of hands - who has implemneted fedeiverse interop in the widest sense
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# schmarty present+
# KevinMarks who is wrign code- looks liek about a third of us- those people shoudl get mroe time as they have the actual problems
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# npdoty I care plenty about perspectives even from non-implementers :)
# anca q+
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# KevinMarks can we do a 30s each on what we need to implement the code
# KevinMarks …evan do you want to chair?
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# KevinMarks evan nomintes tantek to chair
# npdoty q+ eprodrom
# anca q-
# KevinMarks tantek: I can chair
# snarfed q+ for sharing interop desires
# Bob_Wyman q?
# KevinMarks tantek: quickly state if you're an implementer and what project that interoperates with AP & related specs
# PHB q+
# KevinMarks johannes: waht do yo9u need ot mak elife easier and customers happier
# identitywoman I will scribe
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# KevinMarks aarongray: I've been going through the standards adn reading code, we need to follow them and need libraries that support them in the major langauges
# identitywoman Kevin is scribing
# KevinMarks evan: my current work is getting pump.io moved ot the current Ap version and interop
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# KevinMarks … As a co-author I feel I have enough information, it's mroe time and focus
# npdoty q+ gabek
# KevinMarks snarfed: I demoed bridgy.fed this morning - a bridge between webstes with microformats and webmentiosn and activitypub
# KevinMarks …we could improve AP with signatures, private messages, chattiness etc
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# gRegor present+
# AaronNGray Q+
# KevinMarks …the most important thing is that we have ade facto interop standard which si mastodon - any process liek this we have to have Gargron or claire from mastodon implementing
# Bob_Wyman PHB sounds like Phillip Hallam-Baker...
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# GabeK q+
# Bob_Wyman q?
# KevinMarks PHB: I am writing a client for my end to end encrypted social media system - all server side content is encrypted. the gui work is the same to also read mastodon, so I wnt to have the private social media nad mastodon be the same thing. we could wrap direct messages in crypto like this, the hard thing is managing th ekeys
# PHB q-
# npdoty ack tantek
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# syndic-will[m] q+
# benpate q+
# PHB PHB is Phill Hallam-Baker.
# KevinMarks tantek: my site and fedivers address is tantek.com - I am a contributor to brid.gy and am a controbutor to weebmention and microformats
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# pfefferle q+
# KevinMarks gabe: I'm gabe from owncast live video project - we use AP as a sthin layer on top of the live video standards
# KevinMarks “each project has it's own protocl subset, but not the connections between say pixelfed and mobilezon(?)
# KevinMarks … so abstacrt the docs to work outside a given project
# KevinMarks syndic-will[m]: i'm will murphy of innerspace - we make activitypub express and we make guppe groups and innerspace AP for vR
# DoubleMalt q+
# KevinMarks benpate: I have been lurking; I am working on a website that is somewhere between indieweb and fediverse, speaking both. webmentons were hard but Ap is a real bear to work with
# JeremiahLee q+
# KevinMarks …if everything is AP then nothing is AP - I can get it to talk to myslef but not to anything else
# KevinMarks …I want some kind fo a test suite - here's the fields, here's the protocols - with webmention and websub there wer strong test suites in palce
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# KevinMarks pfefferle: Mattias - I am woirking in the wordpress AP plugin - I have to fight with different shared hosting systems abd caching protocols, and AP is shared hosting incompatible at the moment - the conneg nakes it hard to have your own server in shared hosting
# benpate Apologies for turning off my camera. There's *other stuff* happening here :)
# npdoty can someone quickly summarize the content negotiation problems that people are seeing? or share a link to a description somewhere so I can read more?
# KevinMarks DoubleMalt: I'm woking on allpeep ? a service wiht live video and auio streaming for companies on mastodon - would like to include more of the AP protocol
# KevinMarks JeremiahLee: I am working on a personal social media pp that's like Path, and it is different from mastodon and johannes list is like that
# 
cel npdoty https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/thread.html#msg180 Content-Negotiation Issues (conneg) thread
# npdoty thanks cel
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# KevinMarks AaronNGray: the major problme we are goign to have is like th eprotocol wars between browserrs 10-15 years ago.
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# j12t Here's my Christmas wish list: https://reb00ted.org/tech/20230425-w3c-activitypub-wishlist/
# eprodrom q+
# manton q+
# KevinMarks …people aren't implemtning json-ld context properly. I don't read Ruby well so can't tell if mastodon is doing it well
# KevinMarks …we need a test suite that adheres to json-ld AP activity streams and maybe Solid's data platform
# j12t q+
# KevinMarks …if we don't have a reference implementation and test suites is is all going to diverge
# KevinMarks eprodrom: i want to respond to this particualr comment -test suites and verification - we were required to make these before these standards went out
# KevinMarks …the AS2 verrifiaer is no longer online - I am willing to get ti back up and running.
# JeremiahLee I would love to see https://test.activitypub.dev/ work again
# bumblefudge_ it was in guile
# bumblefudge_ also partial coverage
# bumblefudge_ client-to-server section only
# KevinMarks …I belive Christine Webber had an ActivityPub test system, but ti was very hands on, not a automated integration test
# KevinMarks …for AP we may need to revive that
# djangz[m] q+
# KevinMarks …what re people looking for - dev experience, dev advocacy, and what extent is it standards group work?
# KevinMarks …do we need an MDN for the fediverse? We have a wiki in SWICG - do we need a website outside w3c
# JeremiahLee Would be very interesting to see something like MDN for Activity Streams and ActivityPub
# KevinMarks manton: I created micro.blog which supports AP and webmention and microformats etc
# tantek for reference: past Social Web Working Group work, links to specs (which have links to their test suites inside) https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialWG
# KevinMarks …I implemtned it as trial and error with what MAstodon did, and it does mroe than the minimum required, and it woudl be good ot know the actual minimu
# GabeK q+ Documentation outside of the standards group
# AaronNGray Q+
# KevinMarks j12t: mastodon is the de facto implementatrion, there are custom extensions, what si required? what will break? We need to dpocument what the test suite will test
# KevinMarks …the suite should test with real implementations, not just the abstract standard
# GabeK q+ to Documentation outside of the standards group
# KevinMarks …the confidence I need is that ti will not break interop
# JeremiahLee I'm grateful we can "view source" on Mastodon to understand it as a de facto reference implementation.
# KevinMarks …can we reduce the diversity of how we extend activitypub
# bumblefudge_ i think that's called a PROFILE of the activityPub spec, and/or of Mastodon Interop...
# KevinMarks …some fo the activities we need to be competitive in a multiprotocol marketplace - we need a branding programme
# bumblefudge_ good but orthogonal and definitely not either/or
# cel[c] s/ ti / it /
# cel[h] s/ fo / of /
# KevinMarks …where we communicate with the user that there is an interop promise - lik bluetooth
# KevinMarks …we need to build a movement
# KevinMarks [bluetooth interop is actually terrible]
# KevinMarks tantek: all the spec in SocialWG we had to demo interop wiht test suites - see link
# AaronNGray Q+ ActivityStreams + JSON-LD @content
# JeremiahLee (Former Fitbit engineer. Can confirm BlueTooth conformance is terrible)
# KevinMarks …the one exception to the test suite details was we only tested the Client to Server Spec; the Server to server was done by interop peer testing by the implementaions we had
# KevinMarks …now we do need that test suite
# KevinMarks eprodrom: the ActivityStreams had a rigorous validatior, but for AP we doidn't have server to server testing
# AaronNGray Q+ ActivityPub GitHub issues
# KevinMarks …we could benefit from participation here
# eprodrom q+ to hard learning experience
# KevinMarks djangz[m]: Django here - I contribute to the wordpress plugin and innerspace - I haven't found major issues yet. documentation is lacking and it has been a trial and error with paylaods, and how it works with the elephant in th eroom
# KevinMarks …i would like to see mroe of the client to server part of the spec. the s2s was only chacking if there was an inbox, not going further
# npdoty is client-to-server getting broadly implemented? I thought Mastodon specifically didn't use that, and so clients have had to just re-implement the Mastodon API
# KevinMarks …I don't think AP needs to be limited in scope, but interop profiles would be good
# KevinMarks …not all apps need to understand everything
# KevinMarks AaronNGray: AP github issues - can we go through these and triage them as actually outstanding
# j12t In the interest of time, IMHO we should move forward to discuss how we go from here.
# snarfed j12t++
# KevinMarks …coudl the people who have implemented AP put together and implementers guide
# npdoty +1 to moving on
# KevinMarks …AS having an ontological model woudl be useful. What is the point of having he extension if we don't have a turtle ontology fro them?
# pfefferle there is a community driven extension process for ActivityPub btw. https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep
# bumblefudge_ @Context-based extensions would make a core test suite automatically extensible
# KevinMarks …can we document the mastodon extnsions, write turtle and add as PR's
# Bob_Wyman Would OpenAPI with Swagger be a good framework upon which to base a conformance test for a protocol like ActivityPub? https://spec.openapis.org/oas/latest.html
# bumblefudge_ present+
# KevinMarks GabeK: every one of us has said trial and error - we see if it shows up in Mastodon and stop when it works
# snarfed pfefferle++
# npdoty present+
# Bob_Wyman p+
# bumblefudge_ +1
# Bob_Wyman present+
# KevinMarks …we have all decidec that mastodon is the unofficial standard - test suites will end up codofying mastodon's interpretation fo the spec for anyone else
# bumblefudge_ conformance test should test the spec, not one implementation
# bumblefudge_ or at least, mastodon can write such a test and/or spec, but not the whole community
# bumblefudge_ that would defy the point of a SocialCG
# PHB q+
# KevinMarks …someon at mastodon could decide something goofy, and we would all have to go along with it
# DoubleMalt +q Mastodon is biggest for a reason
# DoubleMalt +q Mastodon
# KevinMarks eprodrom: the hard learning experience of so many people talking here has been that there is a lot of folk wisdon and knowledge that people are collecting but not codifying in a central palce that others can tarck.
# npdoty trial and error also happens with Web development, fwiw
# DoubleMalt -q Mastodon
# DoubleMalt -q Mastodon
# KevinMarks …that sounds tough - at the time you are trying to debug that, knowing all the fields and the abck and forth is really important
# KevinMarks …about a day after you forget alll those details because then your code works
# KevinMarks …we want to capture that information at the time we are doing the on the wire checking
# elplatt q+ re test suites
# AaronNGray we could take logs of ActivityPub comms to use for examples ?
# KevinMarks …I doubt we can remeber all the hard parts, but captureing that woudl be good
# KevinMarks tantek: that woudl eb a good start
# bumblefudge - Oh, you're an AP implementer, huh? Name 4 unspecified behaviors that all 3 major implementations do differently
# DoubleMalt q-
# KevinMarks j12t: we have 15 minutes left - I want to move this to what next:
# KevinMarks …1 thing about core AP spec - conneg evolve core spec
# KevinMarks …2 some significant extension eg cryptographe
# KevinMarks …3 documentation and test
# KevinMarks …4 profiles - minimum interop levels - ties into tests
# KevinMarks …5 attract mroe participants especially people from the mastodon community - the market leader is often less interested in interaop
# KevinMarks …what do peoepl want to do, and feel cpaable of doing?
# steve_ediger strongly in favor of all test suites addressing the whole of the social web protocols against realworld applications in addition to tests against the specs
# eprodrom q+
# KevinMarks j12t: can we get this down to next 3?
# KevinMarks tantek: any more implementers - new first
# KevinMarks elplatt: ed platt working on education and adoption among community groups
# npdoty q+ jamesmarshall
# KevinMarks …graceful failure is important - test suites that we can pursue is graceful failure fallback even if not full interop
# KevinMarks [AS was meant to support graceful failure]
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# Bob_Wyman Why wouldn't it be reasonable to create a generic "ActivityPub" test and then a "Mastodon" test, based on the generic one, that does the Mastodon specific stuff?
# KevinMarks PHB: are we talking mastodon the server or mastodon the client? as people start to write Mastodon clients, as their API is not standardised
# KevinMarks …I saw something similar when we were doing antispam and went back to SMTP - it's nto supposed to work like that - you're captive of legacy implementaions
# JamieXML From 20230329 session (Zoom chat): ... taking notes here from Johannes Ernst: (1) existing issues with AP specs published, (2) extensions, (3) documentation and tests (is that one or two items?), (4) minimum profiles, and (5) attracting more "real word" production users into this conversation.
# npdoty ack jamesmarshall
# snarfed q+ seems like most people are talking about Mastodon server interop via AP S2S, _not_ Mastodon client interop, which doesn't use AP C2S
# KevinMarks Jamesmarshall: I am working on a secure tool that hides the messages and metadata from the servers and allows a private posting model
# KevinMarks …also dleivering messages without the serve knowing - also cwtch is doing this, and PHB
# KevinMarks eprodrom: j12t asked about followup - I am willing to get the as2 validation back online
# KevinMarks …servicing the issue queue on github - as co-auther on as2 and AP I am happy to look at those
# KevinMarks …also regualr attending at SWICG meeting
# KevinMarks …I don't think I cna do more about dev network or on the ground, but I can work on that process
# npdoty it seems like we should ask whether Mastodon devs and non-Mastodon client developers would be interested in standardizing the client API
# KevinMarks …last SWICG was 2021 - if chairs are willing to start doing ti regualrly, I will work as an author to update errata etc
# KevinMarks snarfed: what amstodon interop? we're all talking about server to server interop - the clinet side is it's own API- we may want split the C2S and S2S parts accordingly
# KevinMarks manton: i defintely see a problme with there being a lot fo new mastodon clients that only work with mastodon API clones
# j12t So ... should we standardize the Mastodon API?
# AaronNGray Proper declaration of JSON-LD @context is key !!
# snarfed q+ to mention other services implementing Mastodon's API
# KevinMarks …for example peopl as why Ivory doesn't work with my product - do I implement the mastodon API? Do I get Ivory to adopt micropub?
# KevinMarks …we have 20 or 30 cleints that support that API
# npdoty making a new client standard, and starting with the Mastodon API, seems promising, if people are willing to document it
# KevinMarks tantek: we ahve micropub clients what woudl we need to add to micropub to make it matc the mastodon api?
# KevinMarks manton: we would need to have micropub and microsub but could have. basic standard there
# j12t q+
# KevinMarks snarfed: there is a rich ecosystem of cleints and servres, there are alos other servers that implement the mastodon client API - mroe than AP C2S I think
# KevinMarks tantek: j12t can you propose a next meeting time as you got 40 of us to show up
# KevinMarks j12t: do we all want to have the same discussion? should we have smaller meeting for specific problems?
# Bob_Wyman We should not assume that the Client-Server API is "unimportant" or "reasonably proprietary." Doing so creates the assumption that servers own their clients. That is a dangerous assumption.
# steve_ediger users, usability, interoperability test suites, c2s protocols
# KevinMarks …maybe separate ones for branding adn interop - maybe we have a next meeting to set up a subcommitte for each problme ratehr than the big group
# djangz[m] +1
# KevinMarks tantek: we could make that happen by proposing a meeting with an advance agenda to take to implementers
# npdoty +1 for agenda topics ahead of time
# KevinMarks j12t: meeting per subject?
# KevinMarks j12t: thank you all for showing up - we have a great opportunity lets go for it
# Bob_Wyman If you're not a SWICG member, please join!
# KevinMarks [sorry for the typos, thanks cel for fixing]
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# npdoty the auto-correct of ... to an ellipsis on Kevin's client may make the RRSAgent confused when generating minutes, fyi
# KevinMarks oh, I was typing a unicode ellipsis, sorry
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# npdoty that works fine! I'm not sure the search/replace works for the whole document, but in any case, the minutes look fine
# KevinMarks hah
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# cel[c] syndic-will djangz the matrix bridge here (#socialcg:cybre.space) drops messages from some IRC nicks. i'm asking about this in #meta:cybre.space. the minutes (from IRC) should be correct (containing missing messages)
# KevinMarks can people check their product names as I was guessing phonetically
# cel[c] alternative bridge room #_w3c_#social:matrix.org works but has no admin
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# syndic-will[m] present+
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
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# tantek s/the w3c wiki would/the w3c wiki https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG would
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# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# tantek s/<enick_885> public-swicg@w3.org Mail Archives: Regular SWICG meetings and CG process ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/0222.html )//
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# tantek s|-enick_885:#social- public-swicg@w3.org Mail Archives: Regular SWICG meetings and CG process ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/0222.html )||
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
# tantek s|<enick_885> public-swicg@w3.org Mail Archives: Regular SWICG meetings and CG process ( https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swicg/2023Mar/0222.html )||
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html tantek
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# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-minutes.html Zakim
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# j12t There were a lot more people in the meeting than are listed in the minutes. For some time, it hovered about 40, and I think I saw 46 at some point. Could the minutes please be amended to say that?
# j12t Also, this was really a joint session with FediForum. It should probably say that, too, including that be general affirmation, it was informational and not subject to W3C IPR rules.