2023-09-12 UTC
timbl, bkardell_, tantek, dka, btsavage, cwilso, Zakim and eprodrom joined the channel
# 07:32 dka present+ Dan_Appelquist RRSAgent joined the channel
# 07:33 Zakim please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), tantek # 07:33 btsavage present+ btsavage plh joined the channel
# 07:33 dka present+ Dan_Appelquist # 07:33 tantek meeting: Social Web Incubation Community Group cpn joined the channel
# 07:33 cpn present+ Chris_Needham # 07:34 rhiaro eprodrom: this is the first in person meeting we've had since the CG started. Thanks everyone for being here # 07:34 rhiaro ... dmitri and james our regular chairs are not available, so I'm going to chair # 07:34 rhiaro ... and I have some fine grained questions I'd like to work on # 07:34 rhiaro ... our agenda is going to be very focussed on existing specs # 07:35 rhiaro ... I shared an agenda on the mailing list this morning # 07:35 rhiaro eprodrom: this remains an open issue, there's a draft extension policy to discuss angelo joined the channel
# 07:36 rhiaro ... and there a number of issues in the repo which need input from the group # 07:36 rhiaro ... to me they seem relatively minor, editorial issues # 07:36 rhiaro ... but changes to the errata are up for the group to discuss # 07:37 rhiaro dka: Dan Applequist, cochair of the TAG, and one of the original chairs of the social web incubator group way back when before social web was cool # 07:37 rhiaro ... what's the current status of .. there's been a lot of talk on the fediverse about the need to recharter the WG. What's the status? # 07:37 rhiaro ... Curious from a W3C process perspective, and as a denizen of the fediverse # 07:37 rhiaro eprodrom: It has changed significantly in the last 10 minutes pfefferle joined the channel
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# 07:39 rhiaro tantek: relatedly, I'd like to talk about possible rechartering as well, specifically in scope of a bunch of the specs we have produced have advanced, had adoption and patches and fixes and gained critical mass. We've also seen several other protocol stacks emerge, I think there's an opportunity for bridging and enhancing interop across those stacks timbl joined the channel
# 07:40 Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] going to the #SocialWeb CG meeting @W3C #w3cTPAC tomorrow (2023-09-12) at 09:30 CEST.
Looking forward to seeing @evanp.me (@evan@cosocial.ca @evanpro) and many others!
So many advances in #ActivityPub, #Webmention, Micropub, #IndieAuth etc. that it... # 07:40 rhiaro eprodrom: reminder that we do have two breakouts tomorrow about data portability, and interop and testing # 07:41 rhiaro eprodrom: background. When we originally created ActivityStreams Core and Vocab documents we included a section on extensibility # 07:41 rhiaro ... the section covers the technical aspects, and somewhat the process aspects # 07:42 rhiaro ... suggesting we maintain a registry of well known extensions to the activitystreams vocab # 07:42 rhiaro ... and also that we have a process for including those extensions into the context document for AS2 itself # 07:42 rhiaro ... Assuming some understanding of JSON-LD in this case # 07:42 rhiaro ... you can import and reuse other schemas within the context # 07:42 rhiaro ... we do that already with AS2 for a couple of different vocabs, and we said we'd have a mechanism for that in the future, but we deferred on creating that process # 07:43 rhiaro ... we've had two (I think?) major additions to the AS2 context since we finished the REC # 07:43 rhiaro ... the first was including the activitypub specific vocabularly and the second was addnig the alsoknownas from the did vocabularly # 07:43 rhiaro ... during this time AP has been actively used and developed on the social web, and consequently there are a number of different extensions out in the world # 07:43 rhiaro ... the idea is having a structured process for including those vocabularies within the activitystreams context doc to make it easier for developers to just use one context # 07:44 pfefferle tantek I already joined # 07:44 rhiaro ... Any questions about the goals of this discussion? miriam joined the channel
# 07:44 rhiaro dka: can you give me an example of a user need serviced by an extension so I have more context? # 07:45 rhiaro eprodrom: common use case on the social web - playing games across the network. Eg. words with friends across the social network using your identity, being able to make guesses at words etc. Being able to create an extension that wasn't built into activitystreams at the time that supports the new functionality in a new way mro joined the channel
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# 07:46 rhiaro eprodrom: this is our namespace doc for activitystreams # 07:46 rhiaro ... the html representation is an ED of a NOTE that describes the terms that are in activitystreams # 07:47 rhiaro ... the core activitystreams vocabulary, we have the AP extensions and the DID Core extensions # 07:47 Loqi [preview] [Amy Guy] ActivityStreams 2.0 Terms # 07:47 tantek q+ to ask how many in meeting AP implementers do we have? # 07:47 Zakim sees pfefferle, tantek on the speaker queue # 07:47 Zakim sees pfefferle, tantek on the speaker queue # 07:47 rhiaro ... there's also a reference in this doc that says approval of extensions will be by the CG.. process and criteria is being finalised. The suggestion is to finalise that and link it here # 07:47 Zakim sees pfefferle, tantek on the speaker queue # 07:48 rhiaro eprodrom: community process for creating FEPs # 07:49 rhiaro ... for creating extensions.. Fediverse Enhancement Proposals bumblefudge_ joined the channel
# 07:49 rhiaro ... a light community oriented process that mirrors a lot of programming language enhancement processes # 07:49 rhiaro ... I think it's based on PEPs the python process # 07:49 rhiaro ... there are some very interesting extensions built with this mechanism # 07:49 rhiaro ... there's a lot of interesting process here # 07:50 rhiaro ... it's loosely connected to this community group through the socialhub forum # 07:50 rhiaro ... suffice it to say I'm not sure there's a part of the FEP process that includes the process of including terms within the AS2 context document # 07:50 rhiaro ... because the loose affiliation of people involved don't have access to modify that document # 07:50 rhiaro ... we as the CG are responsible for maintaining that document and doing these extensions # 07:50 rhiaro ... I'm not sure that the idea that there is this FEP process is entirely related to how we included extensions in activitystreams 2.0 # 07:51 pfefferle I only wanted to mention it, to not have two different processes # 07:51 tantek pfefferle can you hear us on Zoom? are you able to unmute and speak to your concern? # 07:51 rhiaro ... JSON-LD lets anyone include thier own vocabularys, many implementers do. # 07:52 pfefferle I can hear you but its very noisy # 07:52 rhiaro ... Those are the major sources of extensions and we should encourage all of that # 07:52 pfefferle was there a question for me? # 07:52 rhiaro ... the question si when do we take those extensions and include them in the activitystreams context document? # 07:52 rhiaro ... What is the criteria for including them in the AS2 context document # 07:52 tantek pfefferle more like did eprodrom answer your question? (also please use /me for meta comments, we're using IRC text as minutes of the meeting of what people are saying) # 07:53 pfefferle it was not a question, but more a comment that this already exists # 07:53 rhiaro tantek: how many AP implementers we have here that would be participating in this kind of process? # 07:53 pfefferle sorry for spamming! will use "/me" now # 07:54 rhiaro ... how many people today can contribute to this discussion? # 07:54 rhiaro bumblefudge_: how are you defining implementer and participation? I'm working on FEPs with people # 07:54 rhiaro tantek: we're not directly implementing AP per se but we have launched a mastodon instance at mozilla.social and we've been making lots of modifications to that implementation # 07:54 rhiaro ... not to its ap functionality yet, but we are touching code that is touching activitypub # 07:55 rhiaro btsavage: Ben Savage, Meta. We may well at some point need to add extensions for various things # 07:55 rhiaro bumblefudge_: I'm working on the test suite, and not on a specific implementation, but specifically on the FEP process # 07:55 rhiaro ... hoping to help this be the on ramp to extensions # 07:55 rhiaro eprodrom: I'm also implementing activitypub in various ways, clients and servers # 07:55 mro I am implementing for Seppo.Social. # 07:56 rhiaro Casey: I'd potentially be interested in using extensions for postmarks which is early stage # 07:56 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask how many in meeting AP implementers do we have? # 07:56 rhiaro ... and at glitch.com, we're exploring AP integration, we might be exploring extensions for that but don't know yet # 07:56 pfefferle is implementing ActivityPub for WordPress timbl joined the channel
# 07:57 rhiaro tantek: pfefferle is implementing ActivityPub for WordPress # 07:57 rhiaro ... that answers my question, some people here who can give feedback # 07:57 rhiaro ... Section 2. Several step process. the first is encouraging publication, so publish extension for review # 07:58 rhiaro ... Noted a few places including the FEP system, NOTES on socialcg. Also publishing anywhere else. # 07:58 rhiaro ... It needs to be implemented, have to have it in use # 07:58 rhiaro ... third is that we have a registry where we list existing extension # 07:58 rhiaro ... the fourth step is proposing the extension for inclusion # 07:58 rhiaro ... justification why it's important for this extension to be part of the AS2 vocabularly document # 07:59 rhiaro ... Our group would decide whether or not to include that document # 07:59 rhiaro ... create a draft of the context document, including the new terms # 07:59 rhiaro ... we test that draft, and then it becomes official # 07:59 rhiaro ... I think that this is a fairly standard mechanism for making changes to an existing document # 07:59 rhiaro ... and for building extensions that become part of the core system timbl joined the channel
# 08:00 rhiaro eprodrom: the criteria for including extensions in AS 2.0 .. the extension must have its own context, describes terms and usage, has an IPR policy that's compatible with w3c # 08:01 rhiaro ... asking for 2 independant publishers and consumers regardless of whether it's c2s or s2s # 08:02 rhiaro ... a publisher and consumer might be the same software # 08:02 rhiaro ... that's the minimum for interoperability. Hard to make a case for interop happening with only one implementer # 08:03 rhiaro bumblefudge_: this seems really straightforward. There's something a little implicit which is what happens if my work is msasively overwhelmingly successful and there's 20 FEPs that have been implemented twice that each have testable context files attached in the FEP repo # 08:03 rhiaro ... and the WG has to timeline them, prioritise them, pick which are worth foisting on all implementers # 08:03 rhiaro ... there's a gating thing that isn't mentioned at all # 08:03 rhiaro ... once lal the criteria is met, there's a deliberation process? # 08:03 Zakim sees bumblefudge_, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:03 rhiaro eprodrom: good point. One option is we just put every extension into the context, and that we don't make any decisions # 08:04 rhiaro ... conflicts of terms, terms that are used in multiple vocabs, that makes it difficult to do inclusions so we need to resolve those # 08:04 rhiaro ... the context document is not large. 10s of kb # 08:04 rhiaro ... but there i sa point at which it can get very large # 08:04 rhiaro ... and it's hosted on the web. There may be size issues to be concerned about # 08:04 rhiaro ... Third, the process. How do we queue things coming in from FEPs and other systems? # 08:05 rhiaro ... the fact that we would vote on it within the CG before including something, is that the point at which we'd use that discretion? # 08:05 rhiaro bumblefudge_: I can imagine a couple of of ways of doing it that have strengths and weaknesses. I don't have an answer I prefer # 08:06 rhiaro ... I've seen extensions in other processes are welcome, but merging into the main context is almost like making it a required feature # 08:06 rhiaro ... some processes do that only at major versions # 08:06 rhiaro ... extensions now are eligible to be in the context in the next major version # 08:06 rhiaro ... that's one form of governance I've seen for these kinds of processes # 08:06 rhiaro ... in some contexts the testability is debated for a while # 08:06 rhiaro ... you have to provide an extesnion to a test suite that proves you can work with someone who didn't implement the extension for example # 08:06 rhiaro ... Just positing that it maybe forces other issues abot what's a major version, what's the WG/CG division of power? # 08:07 rhiaro eprodrom: interesting question. Because we've already done this twice since the major version of AS2, we at least have some precedent for doing it between major versions # 08:07 rhiaro ... I would not see that we need a version change in order to do this # 08:07 rhiaro ... I also think this is a backwards compatible process if we're doing it additively # 08:08 rhiaro ... if we were to add the security vocabularly that we use for http signatures in AP and is widely used, but the vocab has to be included each time you create an AP document # 08:08 rhiaro eprodrom: Any examples of other vocabs, system, with a similar process of inclusion of extensions? # 08:09 rhiaro ... where extensions are built and then filtered into a core system? # 08:09 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask about test cases for extensions # 08:09 rhiaro tantek: this is a great minimal start to a process. The one suggestion I'd have is in the criteria ... # 08:10 rhiaro ... I think for that .. how do we .. what are the test case requirements for that? # 08:10 rhiaro ... usually you demonstrate a test suite that can validate for a publisher, or a for a consumer a set of test cases that produces a user visible result # 08:10 rhiaro ... I think it would be useful for the criteria to be explicit about that, and give an example # 08:10 dka q+ to ask about i18n, a11y, privacy, etc... # 08:11 rhiaro ... In the microformats community we came up with a change control process for adding vocabulary terms # 08:11 rhiaro ... once people are depending on it and systems are interoperating it's a different process # 08:11 rhiaro ... the difference is we have a few stages. Proposed, draft, stable # 08:11 rhiaro ... we've found that's useful to give people an idea of where a proposal is in the process, and how to move it to the next stage # 08:11 rhiaro ... one difference is we settled on 3+ publishers/consumers # 08:12 rhiaro ... people would get excited about an extension, you could easily get 2, and those wouldn't necessarily last # 08:12 bumblefudge_ q+ to differentiate vocabulary changes (which should be backwards compatible) from features or behavioral changes (which require test cases/suite support) # 08:12 Zakim sees dka, bumblefudge_ on the speaker queue # 08:12 rhiaro ... asking for 3 has been enough that 2 will continue existing over time # 08:13 rhiaro ... not necessarily a bad thing ,but it would slow down that process # 08:13 rhiaro tantek: would help to say is there an implementation # 08:13 Zakim sees dka, bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:13 rhiaro eprodrom: would it be worthwhile to .. "required" and "desired" eg in a job description # 08:13 rhiaro ... don't request without 2 implementers, better with 3 # 08:14 Zakim sees dka, bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:14 Zakim dka, you wanted to ask about i18n, a11y, privacy, etc... # 08:14 Zakim sees bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:14 rhiaro dka: recognise that you're trying to keep the process lightweight bengo joined the channel
# 08:14 rhiaro ... in the TAG we do review of specs, and we ask for explainers. Document the user needs # 08:14 rhiaro ... have you done accessibility review, security and privacy review # 08:14 rhiaro ... i know some of these things are going to be quite small # 08:14 Zakim sees tantek, bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:14 rhiaro ... but it does feel like criteria.. if you're expecting some to be part of the core spec they'll need to go through that level of rigour at that point # 08:15 rhiaro ... better to catch those issues ahead of time # 08:15 rhiaro ... especially around a11y, i18n, privacy and security # 08:15 rhiaro ... we have assets in the TAG that can help people reivew their specs dmitriz joined the channel
# 08:15 rhiaro eprodrom: it's a good point, but a heavier process # 08:15 rhiaro tantek: support the horizontal review in the TAG, that's important. the vocab in AS2 predates the registry process in w3c # 08:16 rhiaro ... the way evan is proposing is much closer to the way registries are handled in in w3c now # 08:16 rhiaro ... however there's usually some interesting piece of user functionality which comes with each function # 08:16 rhiaro ... that user functionality would hep to have some kind of horizontal review # 08:16 rhiaro dka: eg. the words with friends example - there'd be a microsyntax, and does it take accessibility into account? # 08:16 rhiaro tantek: right now, WGs can add things to registries without any review # 08:17 Zakim sees tantek, bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:17 Zakim tantek, you wanted to react to dka to answer dka # 08:17 Zakim sees bumblefudge_, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:17 Zakim bumblefudge_, you wanted to differentiate vocabulary changes (which should be backwards compatible) from features or behavioral changes (which require test cases/suite support) # 08:17 rhiaro bumblefudge_: some of the things that are currently FEPs include .. if something is only adding something to the vocab... a vocab change should be backwards compatible, deosn't break implementations # 08:17 rhiaro ... but most of the time they're not just semantic extensions, they're semantic and behaviour # 08:18 rhiaro ... we're dancing around the fact that the semantic extension part should always be backwards compatible. But there's a behavioural extension motivating adding the extension timbl joined the channel
# 08:18 rhiaro ... the context is just a registry, but there's almost always a behavioural extension attached # 08:18 rhiaro ... if the behavioural extension is big enough to maybe break implementations that haven't implemented it, then you need a test suite.... that's a totally different beast # 08:18 tantek thank you for bringing up these questions and points bumblefudge++ # 08:18 Loqi bumblefudge has 1 karma over the last year # 08:19 rhiaro ... Also, there isn't currently a single robust test suite that is easy to extend as a fep is to write # 08:19 rhiaro ... if you coudl just write a fep and then add some test cases to an existing test suite it would be much easier to make a testability requirement # 08:19 rhiaro ... but until we have that we're laying tracks in front of a moving train # 08:19 rhiaro btsavage: I like the suggestion from tantke that to b eincluded there need to be test suites # 08:19 rhiaro ... I think it's helpful for new activitypub implementers # 08:20 rhiaro ... for all of the official extensions to have a test suite to work with # 08:20 rhiaro ... part of the incentive, to be part of the official list there need to be tests, seems like it would create a nice outcome # 08:20 rhiaro eprodrom: also one of the reasons we create test suites is so we don't have regressions or problems when we make additions # 08:20 rhiaro eprodrom: the question I have is how we move forward with this process # 08:21 rhiaro ... I'd like to propose we adopt the process document as presented as a draft to be maintained and developed by the CG # 08:21 rhiaro ... this would be a first draft note and we continue with modifications to this draft # 08:21 rhiaro tantek: does that include adopting it as process, or adopting it as something to publish? timbl joined the channel
# 08:23 rhiaro tantek: do you want suggestions for improvements filed as issues on that repo? # 08:24 rhiaro ... eg. versioning, test case requirements, etc # 08:24 tantek +1 to publish that as a CG report, and file our suggested improvements as issues on the repo linked in the draft # 08:24 bengo wrt "cg publish reports, but not NOTEs", I would like a citation on that # 08:25 tantek bengo, it's in the W3C Process, I bet plh can dig up a citation there # 08:25 Zakim 1. group status and rechartering [from tantek] # 08:25 Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] going to the #SocialWeb CG meeting @W3C #w3cTPAC tomorrow (2023-09-12) at 09:30 CEST.
Looking forward to seeing @evanp.me (@evan@cosocial.ca @evanpro) and many others!
So many advances in #ActivityPub, #Webmention, Micropub, #IndieAuth etc. that it... # 08:26 bengo wrt rechartering, that seems like something that should have been on the agenda 2 weeks ago # 08:26 bengo (per process doc) # 08:26 rhiaro eprodrom: we were originally chartered in 2015 and worked for 3 years with some generous extensions, published 6 RECs # 08:27 rhiaro ... the off ramp for that WG was the idea that this cg would do ongoing maintenance of those documents # 08:27 rhiaro ... The current state of play is that the CG does some work in that area, we do meet fairly regularly # 08:28 rhiaro ... however we're not able to update the rec track documents # 08:28 Loqi [preview] [Elika J. Etemad / fantasai] W3C Process Document # 08:28 tantek q+ to ask where are the errata to ActivityPub and note living spec updates to Webmention, Micropub, IndieAuth etc. # 08:28 Zakim sees bengo, plh, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:28 rhiaro ... one reason for us to recharter is for us to be able to move forward with those documents and take them to next versions # 08:29 Zakim sees bengo, plh, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:29 rhiaro ... There have been, since the publication of activitystreams and activitypub and the others, there have been a lot of development use, real world experience # 08:29 rhiaro ... there may be some value in applying those to iterations on those documents # 08:29 Zakim bengo, you wanted to discuss whether the w3c process generally requires f2f meetings to have agenda items like rechartering to be published two weeks before f2f meetings # 08:29 dka q+ to recommend dual CG/WG approach. # 08:29 Zakim sees plh, tantek, dka on the speaker queue # 08:29 Loqi [preview] [Elika J. Etemad / fantasai] W3C Process Document # 08:29 rhiaro bengo: I noticed there was an agenda published before the meeting but it didn't include anything about rechartering # 08:30 rhiaro ... wrt to process it would normally the agenda for f2f meetings would be published 2 weeks in advance, especially to discuss something as serious as rechartering a group # 08:30 rhiaro eprodrom: I think this is a discussion, not a decision # 08:30 Zakim sees tantek, plh, tantek, dka on the speaker queue # 08:30 rhiaro ... if we feel comfortable with it, we'll not make any decisions in this morning's meeting # 08:30 rhiaro tantek: the process doesn't have that requirement for CGs, only for WGs # 08:31 rhiaro ... second, a common process is to do agenda gardening as the first thing in the beginning of the meeting, people are given an opportunity to suggest or prioritise items # 08:31 rhiaro bengo: sounds good. Just worth having future discussions and not making resolutions without a bigger quorum # 08:31 Zakim sees tantek, plh, tantek, dka on the speaker queue # 08:31 Zakim sees tantek, plh, tantek, dka on the speaker queue # 08:31 Zakim sees plh, tantek, dka on the speaker queue # 08:32 rhiaro plh: we don't need a WG to make editorial changes to docs, you can come to the Team for that # 08:32 rhiaro ... but for substantive changes, we need a WG # 08:32 rhiaro ... The way the current process.. the short version is the team propose a charter to the AC. We're looking for a group to tell us what they like for a charter, and we'll send it to the AC # 08:33 rhiaro ... I'd be looking for, if we're going to create a WG to work on ActivityPub, I'd be looking to this community to tell the Team what you'd like to see in the charter because you know better than us # 08:33 rhiaro ... I'm very supportive of relaunching the social web WG for the simple reason that we have a rec and I'd like to have a WG to maintain it # 08:34 rhiaro ... when we closed the WG back then, we didn't have this process # 08:34 rhiaro ... Nowadays we dont' close the WG, they're in charge of maintaining the rec as a maintenance WG # 08:34 rhiaro ... Now there's interest in actively maintaining the rec # 08:34 bengo (for posterity, it is very hard for remote attendees to hear) # 08:34 rhiaro ... we have seen a huge amount of substnative functional improvements to AP and AS2 by implementers # 08:34 dmitriz fwiw, so far there's been fairly significant community pushback to rechartering # 08:34 rhiaro ... which has been largely self governed and operating fairly well # 08:35 rhiaro ... getting some of that into the core rec would be a good thing # 08:35 rhiaro ... we've had 7 recs come out of social web wg # 08:35 rhiaro dmitriz bengo interesting about pushback! would love to hear about why # 08:35 Zakim sees tantek, dka, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 08:35 plh +1 interested to hear as well # 08:35 rhiaro ... maintained as living standards by the indieweb community # 08:36 rhiaro ... eg. micropub. Would be great to get iprovements rolled into the w3c spec # 08:36 rhiaro ... we published a NOTE for indieauth because it was outside of the scope of the charter. We have a lot more implementations since then # 08:36 rhiaro ... I'd requst it was considered in scope for a rec track document based on the NOTE # 08:36 rhiaro ... lastly, there are a few new related specs that have been implemented, like microsub # 08:37 rhiaro ... example - bridgy.fed - interesting unintended successes of the previous WG # 08:37 rhiaro ... evan and I worked really hard with the staff contacts and chairs to take 15 or so approaches to the social web and narrow them down to 2.5 to 3 # 08:37 rhiaro ... we decided instead of trying to fight that out down to 1, we'd allow those communities to develop their technical approachs, and use the wg as a forum to develop interop across them # 08:38 rhiaro ... in terms of semantics, minimising friction when coverting between them # 08:38 dmitriz @rhiaro - great question re why, needs more polling / conversion. just noting that there has been. # 08:38 rhiaro ... now we have services like bridgy fed that can connect between these different stacks # 08:38 rhiaro ... on tantek.com I publish html, I use webmentions, and I use bridgyfed to connect directly with the fediverse # 08:38 rhiaro ... I haven'tw ritten a single line of ap myself, and send bridgyfed a webmention, it delivers them ap inboxes across a number of people # 08:39 rhiaro ... I'd like to replicate that with the other technical approaches we're seeing, some are not in this room # 08:39 bengo bsky is going to IETF # 08:39 rhiaro ... blockchain based, also growing in adoption # 08:39 rhiaro ... we're at this interesting moment for the social web # 08:39 rhiaro ... people want to invent a bunch of approaches, and w3c could serve a role here to bring together a bunch of different approaches # 08:39 rhiaro ... to define it in such a way to be welcoming to those other groups timbl joined the channel
# 08:40 bumblefudge_ nostr<>AP bridging is already happening in the wild (somewhat chaotically for the moderation system of AP that is, as yet, underspecified...) # 08:40 rhiaro dka: if you do recharter a WG that you keep the CG running as well - having that dual mode approach I've seen work very well with other things # 08:40 bumblefudge_ and i have also heard from the bsky team that IETF is being targeted for some specs # 08:40 Zakim sees tantek, dka, eprodrom, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:40 tantek bumblefudge_ awesome that is great to hear! it would be great to include and build on that work # 08:40 rhiaro ... keeping the WG lightweight and focussed around what it needs to do to update the rec # 08:41 rhiaro ... and having most of the technical work happen in the CG is probably the right balance # 08:41 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask where are the errata to ActivityPub and note living spec updates to Webmention, Micropub, IndieAuth etc. # 08:41 Zakim sees dka, eprodrom, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:41 Zakim dka, you wanted to recommend dual CG/WG approach. # 08:41 Zakim sees eprodrom, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:41 Zakim sees eprodrom, btsavage on the speaker queue # 08:41 rhiaro eprodrom: I'm concerned about opening specifically AS2 and AP to normative changes fo r a couple of reasons # 08:41 rhiaro ... it's going through a period of explosive growth # 08:42 rhiaro ... if we establish a process for treating an AS2.0 potentially breaking changes that may put a damper on implementation # 08:42 rhiaro ... why would I implement AP1 today? I should wait until AP2 comes out and it's not done and it's taking years.. # 08:42 rhiaro ... may have potential for inhibiting uptake right now, unless it was well messaged, backwards compatible # 08:42 tantek q+ to note we can be explicit about keeping AP compatibility in the Charter scope # 08:42 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:43 rhiaro ... I will also say that there are ... with aset of recommendations that exist right now that are available for developers to use right now, I'm less supportive of more protocols being built right now # 08:43 rhiaro ... I'd probably not think that adding BlueSky to socialcg makes sense # 08:43 rhiaro ... it's an effort to build a proprietary protocal separate from existing standards # 08:43 rhiaro ... I'm not sure having an array of standards is helpful for developers or users # 08:44 rhiaro ... it's a different world than it was in 2017 # 08:44 rhiaro ... considerably more people, more implemenations, more infrastructure # 08:44 rhiaro ... I would not necesssarily encourage other experimentation at this point that isn't compatible # 08:44 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:44 plh [actually, the right answer is 2014 :) ] # 08:44 bumblefudge_ q+ to inquire where people think bridging/cross-protocol interop work belongs in a WG/CG split like dka proposed? # 08:44 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek, bumblefudge_ on the speaker queue # 08:45 tantek right plh, the workshop on social web was 2013 # 08:45 rhiaro btsavage: if we are going to charter a wg, my recommendationw ould be to keep the scope quite limited # 08:45 rhiaro ... this is based on my experience in the private advertising technology cg # 08:45 rhiaro ... we've been attempting to create a wg for nearly 2 years # 08:45 tantek q+ to also note rechartering a previous WG is very different than chartering a new WG # 08:45 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek, bumblefudge_ on the speaker queue # 08:45 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:45 rhiaro ... I'd love any advice to avoid a situation where it takes years # 08:45 Zakim sees btsavage, tantek on the speaker queue # 08:46 bengo is bsky pbllc even a w3c member company? # 08:46 Zakim tantek, you wanted to note we can be explicit about keeping AP compatibility in the Charter scope and to also note rechartering a previous WG is very different than chartering a # 08:46 rhiaro tantek: sympathise with the potential problems with divergance in this space, we share a lot of values there # 08:46 rhiaro ... it took a lot of hard work to come to the balance that we did in the original social web wg # 08:46 rhiaro ... I think there is a social componenent to this.. # 08:46 rhiaro ... maybe we don't need to get those discussions into the cg - maybe a liason effort # 08:47 rhiaro ... someone mentioned bluesky going to ietf? Maybe a liason opportunity there # 08:47 bumblefudge_ +1 to btsavage -- each additional function we assign to this maintenance group is additional risk of falling into the charter swamp # 08:47 rhiaro ... I strongly agree that we should keep AP compatible. Against breaking changes against what's been implemented # 08:47 rhiaro ... we might make changes to reflect what implementations decided to do # 08:47 rhiaro ... charters can say we'll work on this spec, but out of scope are breaking changes as far as what is implemented # 08:48 bengo What if we made an activitypub CG? # 08:48 rhiaro ... a WG can help reinforce what you're asking for # 08:48 rhiaro ... to btsavage's challenge... it's a different istuation rechartering vs chartering a new wg, to update recs that have taken off in the market # 08:48 rhiaro ... agree a new wg should have a narrow charter # 08:49 rhiaro ... wouldn't suggest adding a bunch of new things # 08:49 rhiaro ... but maintaining what we know has been widely adopted # 08:49 rhiaro ... taking the things with multiple implementations which are not recommendations yet # 08:50 rhiaro plh: we can make the charter of the wg about only fixing.. not allowing new features. Only modify normative aspects of specs if it's already deployed and reflects reality # 08:50 rhiaro ... we can make the charter as tight as possible # 08:50 rhiaro ... we're not working on a new version of AP, just making sure the spec reflects reality # 08:50 rhiaro ... and we want new implementers to implement reality # 08:51 rhiaro ... As ben pointed out, we're not going to try and make decisions today, but it sounds like from this conversation that there is... can we do a straw poll? # 08:51 rhiaro ... sounds like we have support for exploring a charter # 08:51 rhiaro dka: gotta go, but +1, feel like this is necessary # 08:52 rhiaro eprodrom: suggest we defer this to the next cg meeting in 2 weeks # 08:52 rhiaro ... consider a proposal for starting a charter process # 08:52 rhiaro tantek: a good idea for the wg to do refinements # 08:52 rhiaro ... but there's a much broader set of participants here at tpac # 08:52 rhiaro ... what belongs in a charter, what belongs in a w3c charter # 08:52 rhiaro ... even a straw poll from the people in this room and on the channel would be a useful opinion to take # 08:53 bengo a straw poll would be misrepresentative of the broader cant-afford-to-attend-TPAC-on-company dime ecosystem # 08:54 dmitriz @bengo - it includes those joining online tho # 08:54 tantek PROPOSED: Explore rechartering the Social Web WG to do updates on existing RECs with wide implementations, consider adopting NOTEs with interoperable implementations as WDs, and consider incubations with interoperable implementations for WDs # 08:54 bumblefudge_ PROPOSED: Explore rechartering the Social Web WG to do updates on existing RECs with wide implementations, designate a core suite of testing strategiesconsider adopting NOTEs with interoperable implementations as WDs, and consider incubations with interoperable implementations for WDs # 08:54 bumblefudge_ oops sorry # 08:54 bumblefudge_ strike that # 08:54 rhiaro plh: are you proposing that the WG has new features in scope? # 08:55 rhiaro tantek: yes because implemenations have added new features that are beyond the scope of the spec right now. Eg. extensions. I'd like the WG to consider a similar process for improving AP and AS2 specs # 08:55 tantek bumblefudge_: +1 on including testing strategies # 08:55 bengo -1 not all RECs are worth working on hand-in-hand # 08:56 dmitriz -0.5 (needs broader conversation w community first) # 08:56 rhiaro bengo: I don't think it's a good idea to charter working on all of the different recs that came out of the WG in the past # 08:56 rhiaro ... people look in the minutes of the days we voted on those TRs that there were some surprise things inserted in and voted on things that were published before even AS2 # 08:57 bumblefudge_ q+ I have an alternate proposal to run # 08:57 Zakim bumblefudge_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 08:57 rhiaro bengo: would make sense to narrow it to only AS2 and AP if that's where by far the most adoption has happened vs other recs # 08:57 bumblefudge_ (slight adjustment, not really alternative) # 08:57 rhiaro ... we could clarify what we mean by wide adoption and enumerate exactly what we mean # 08:57 bumblefudge_ PROPOSED: Explore rechartering the Social Web WG to do updates on existing RECs with wide implementations, designate a core suite of testing strategies, and integrate it with the FEP process and/or additional independent/community processes. Maybe adopting NOTEs with interoperable implementations as WDs, and incubation of interoperable implementations for WDs could stay in CG for now, until the test suite has consensus that would be t[CUT] # 08:58 rhiaro bumblefudge_: laying tracks before moving train... if a maintenance group could take as its target defining a set of test tools that would be the basis for interoperable things # 08:58 rhiaro ... and bengo's comment about defining what's wide enough adoption # 08:58 rhiaro ... I feel like those are slightly downstream # 08:58 rhiaro ... you could maintain what there already is and have a foundation for deciding which specs can be declared provably interoperable # 08:58 rhiaro ... is there any way to stagger it, or do you have to recharter? # 08:59 rhiaro ... Maybe a layering thing. I'd love some time to have a test basis before moving testing into scope # 08:59 eprodrom ack bumblefudge_ # 08:59 eprodrom PROPOSED: Explore rechartering the Social Web WG # 08:59 rhiaro eprodrom: proposal that takes out what we'd be exploring. Explore means we're going to spend time in the cg over the next multiple meetings now that we have this on the table, to discuss what that would actually entail, and work with staff and members to decide about what that is # 08:59 tantek +1 from dka as well who had to leave who gave general support for rechartering a Social Web WG # 09:00 bengo is this a proposal or a straw poll # 09:00 rhiaro tantek: as a CG we don't make formal decisions. This is the same thing # 09:00 dmitriz +0 (doesn't seem urgent, given the overall lack of interest in it in # 09:01 dmitriz the wider community) # 09:01 bengo 0 - this should have more notice for more votes to be registered # 09:01 rhiaro ... will reach out to participants who aren't here today # 09:01 bumblefudge_ yeah i thought i was +1ing defining a few scopes and strawpolling them at the next meeting # 09:02 rhiaro ... we can defer the rest of the agenda for today # 09:02 rhiaro plh: come back to me with the conclusion, I'm interesting in the outcome of this conversation timbl joined the channel
# 09:03 rhiaro ... we can turn that into a charter, and send it back for iteration # 09:03 rhiaro tantek: I'd suggest listing what we want to work on standards track, updating or new # 09:03 rhiaro ... reminder of two breakout sessions tomorrow timbl and tantek joined the channel
# 10:01 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been Dan_Appelquist, tantek, btsavage, eprodrom, bkardell_, rhiaro, cwilso, Chris_Needham, plh, miriam, pfefferle, dmitriz, bengo, Juan # 10:01 Zakim I am happy to have been of service, tantek; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye timbl joined the channel; Zakim and plh left the channel
cel[c], timbl, feld65, nightpool[m], xkr47, herman and tantek joined the channel
# 16:07 Loqi [preview] [Evan Prodromou] OK, this is happening Tuesday night from 19:00-20:00 local. We're having a fediverse meetup aka a #FedUp.If you're in Seville for #W3C #TPAC and you're on the fediverse, come hang out with us for drinks and snacks.100 Montaditos, C. San Fernando, 29I... # 18:11 RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed ckolderup, trwnh and timbl joined the channel; RRSAgent and vt left the channel
dka present+ Dan_Appelquist
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-social-irc
rhiaro tantek: relatedly, I'd like to talk about possible rechartering as well, specifically in scope of a bunch of the specs we have produced have advanced, had adoption and patches and fixes and gained critical mass. We've also seen several other protocol stacks emerge, I think there's an opportunity for bridging and enhancing interop across those stacks
tantek Agenda+ recharter for updated specs and new protocol stacks interop: https://tantek.com/2023/254/t2/socialweb-cg-w3ctpac
Zakim pfefferle, you wanted to note there is already a community process: https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep