2024-03-01 UTC
tenma, includeals, someonewithpc, feld659, dshanske, dlehn1, TallTed and tantek joined the channel
snarfed and Zakim joined the channel
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# 18:04 Zakim please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), tantek eprodrom joined the channel
thisismissem joined the channel
# 18:07 eprodrom scribe: eprodrom dmitriz joined the channel
# 18:07 eprodrom andy piper: self-introduction. Member of multiple Open Source organizations and a member of various teams, working with Mastodon and IFTAS. # 18:08 eprodrom reilly: Reilly Spitzfaden, interested in Fediverse, audio engineer Shauna joined the channel
# 18:09 eprodrom tantek: IndyWebCamp Brighton will be March 9-10. Still tickets available. Great for locals. People doing hacking and sessions on all kinds of things. # 18:11 eprodrom johannes ernst: fediforum coming up March 19-20. 10 demos. Show-and-tell and unconference. # 18:13 eprodrom Topic: Meetings # 18:13 eprodrom dmitriz: we're on monthly CG meetings # 18:13 eprodrom eprodrom: in calendar, will happen automatically # 18:14 eprodrom emelia smith: can we link from the home page? # 18:14 eprodrom Topic: Issue triage meetings # 18:14 eprodrom dmitriz: issue triage is happening on a regular basis # 18:16 eprodrom eprodrom: is it worthwhile for other task forces to use issue triage time? # 18:17 eprodrom emelia: minutes and agenda? # 18:17 eprodrom eprodrom: yes # 18:17 eprodrom Topic: main specs # 18:17 eprodrom dmitriz: work has started on editor's drafts for AS2 and AP # 18:20 eprodrom dmitriz: route for normative changes # 18:21 eprodrom eprodrom: issues -> errata -> editor's draft # 18:23 tantek eprodrom: we should link from the spec to the primer # 18:24 tantek eprodrom: all the pages in the primer are available for anyone with a W3C account to edit, will follow-up and confirm # 18:26 eprodrom dmitriz: good idea to move wiki content into GitHub? # 18:27 eprodrom emelia: GitHub discussions or other issues? # 18:27 eprodrom tantek: questions page? Other way for people to connect? # 18:28 eprodrom johannes: lots of discussions in Matrix group, also # 18:28 tantek s/questions page/Questions page inside the Primer? perhaps eprodrom can create a Questions page inside Primer as a starting point to point people to # 18:29 eprodrom johannes: worthwhile to talk about usability, other flows, etc. # 18:29 eprodrom johannes: need a roadmap # 18:30 eprodrom emelia: iftas is working on DSA guidance for instance operators # 18:31 eprodrom emelia: DSA is digital services act, EU legislation for online services responsibilities # 18:31 eprodrom emelia: most instances fall under small, micro businesses # 18:32 eprodrom Topic: report out from task forces # 18:33 eprodrom ryanbarrett: working on HTTP signatures. Tentative outline, initial text, ~1/3-1/2 of report. angelo joined the channel
# 18:33 eprodrom ryanbarrett: can incorporate other work from FEPs. # 18:33 eprodrom ryanbarrett: please review. reillypascal_ joined the channel
# 18:34 eprodrom emelia: note that outline does not include disparity on versions. # 18:34 eprodrom emelia: upgrade on roadmap? # 18:35 eprodrom ryanbarrett: some notes on how HTTP signature works now, will consider how others use it. # 18:35 eprodrom aarongrey: would like to see alongside spec, want to see working implementations. Minimal implementations for testing. Example infrastructure that people can build from. # 18:36 eprodrom aarongrey: would give some examples for working with. # 18:37 eprodrom emelia: some implementations working on modular work. # 18:38 eprodrom dmitriz: good idea for an issue! # 18:39 eprodrom emelia: what is the next step to get to the next version? # 18:39 eprodrom ryanb: will open an issue for how to do this # 18:40 tantek eprodrom: working on A) WebFinger ActivityPub report # 18:40 tantek eprodrom: A has done an amazing amount of work # 18:41 tantek eprodrom: great time to be getting feedback on this document # 18:42 tantek eprodrom: if there is anything hard to understand or follow or technically erroneous, it would be very helpful to hear that # 18:42 tantek eprodrom: by the next meeting I would like to take this from zeroth draft to a Draft Report for the CG # 18:43 tantek eprodrom: it's an important part of how we make the AP ecosystem a growing expanding ecosystem that covers new ways of social interaction # 18:44 tantek eprodrom: this has been published last week as an official Draft Report of the CG as agreed at the last meeting # 18:44 tantek eprodrom: good time for us to be putting some of this into practice # 18:44 tantek eprodrom: it would be good to step through this process with a widely used extension # 18:44 tantek eprodrom: there are a few popular extensions like the Security Vocabulary that might be good candidates here # 18:44 tantek eprodrom: if you have time, this is also an area to please collect some issues on this draft before we go to something final # 18:45 tantek eprodrom: one part of this policy is about versioning # 18:45 tantek eprodrom: one of the things we have tried to do with ActivityStreams context is have the tip of our version history at the W3C context document # 18:45 tantek eprodrom: but in situations where it is important to maintain an exact version of the document, we also have a version history listing, so you can say this document uses exactly this context # 18:45 tantek eprodrom: we have main links and also version links # 18:46 tantek eprodrom: we have made changes in the context since the last time we published a version # 18:46 tantek eprodrom: the current version we have listed in our version history is 1.10 # 18:47 tantek eprodrom: I did a diff, I think it was A who brought it up, we have added the vCard namespace to the main context document and alsoKnownAs term # 18:47 tantek eprodrom: I propose to the group that we publish a v1.11 that is at the current state # 18:47 tantek eprodrom: that would also give us a chance to put in practice the versioning policy # 18:48 tantek eprodrom: PROPOSAL: publish version 1.11 of Activity Streams 2.0 context document based on current state of the context document. # 18:48 tantek dmitriz: let's give a second to talk about it before we vote # 18:49 tantek emelia: my question is about the extensions policy, my question is about backwards compatibility. are future versions required to be backwards compatible? # 18:49 tantek eprodrom: I think that the document as described is additive, append-only structure. It does not describe a mechanism for updating or replacing terms within the existing context. # 18:49 tantek eprodrom: That is an important part, I'm going to open a ticket to note append-only backwards compatibility. # 18:50 thisismissem plh: abstain # 18:51 tantek dmitriz: seeing a bunch of +1s, no -1s or 0s yet # 18:51 thisismissem bob wyman: +1 # 18:51 tantek RESOLVED: publish version 1.11 of Activity Streams 2.0 context document based on current state of the context document. # 18:51 tantek thisismissem: would this be related to the licensing changes? # 18:52 tantek dmitriz: yes we should do it, not necessary to be at the same time # 18:53 tantek eprodrom: spam attack on the fediverse, mostly direct messages directed at individuals # 18:53 tantek eprodrom: looks like some kind of discord between different groups, using the fediverse as a battlefield # 18:54 tantek eprodrom: lot of work going on with dealing with this large issue # 18:54 tantek eprodrom: wanted to make sure we had a discussion here about it # 18:54 tantek thisismissem: it wasn't commercial, it was two hacking groups of kids / teenagers. one from one discord server, another from another discord server # 18:54 tantek thisismissem: the link in the spam was to the target discord to get taken down # 18:55 tantek thisismissem: we have taken away some of the heat from ActivityPub platforms. did an interview with TechCrunch # 18:55 tantek thisismissem: this is not a Mastodon platform, this is a problem with Discord in Japan allowing the kids to do hacking activity # 18:55 tantek thisismissem: a reasonably well organized group of teenagers, potentially with an adult involved # 18:56 tantek thisismissem: it was reported to Discord, specifically to their Child Abuse Department and they went "meh, not our problem because you're not a parent of any of the teenagers involved" # 18:56 tantek thisismissem: this attack leveraged outdated instances, those with open registration, then automated processes to create accounts, and send the spam # 18:56 tantek thisismissem: normally we see one instance attacked. in the case of these Japanese kids, literally 100s of servers at a time sending out the same spam. # 18:57 tantek thisismissem: so our strategy for mitigation was very different than just one instance # 18:57 tantek thisismissem: it was actually a much more sustained spam attack than what we've ever seen before # 18:57 tantek thisismissem: possibly highlights a very fatal flaw in our current open federation model that we have # 18:57 tantek thisismissem: the other thing is that Japanese police are involved. there are criminal prosecutions involved for those involved with the spam wave # 18:58 tantek j12t: if it were an actual commercial attack rather than just teenagers, do we know what the plan is? # 18:58 tantek thisismissem: I linked to a paper that was published that explores a bunch of the more sophisticated threats to the fediverse # 18:59 tantek eprodrom: this is different from our current moderation based on server and account # 18:59 tantek eprodrom: there was no shifting of content or keyword mashing. # 18:59 tantek eprodrom: it would have been tractable with Bayesian approaches # 19:00 tantek eprodrom: we have some technical barriers to using these techniques. we need to be considering how to incorporate these techniques into our systems # 19:00 tantek dmitriz: we are at time, need to pause here, final comment thisismissem? # 19:01 tantek thisismissem: when we blocked hashtags, they adapted the spam and removed the hashtags. when we blocked images, they removed the images and started mentioning a bunch of useres. it did evolve # 19:01 tantek dmitriz: let's continue the conversation offline # 19:01 tantek dmitriz: see you all the first Friday in April, April 5th # 19:01 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been tantek, eprodrom, thisismissem, ckolderup, snarfed, dmitriz, angelo, j12t, emelia # 19:01 Zakim I am happy to have been of service, tantek; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye Zakim left the channel
# 19:04 Loqi dmitriz has 2 karma over the last year # 19:21 thisismissem tl;dr is that I specifically point out that another platform (a billion dollar company) failing to moderate had economic and quality of service impacts for the fediverse, and also that to better solve these problems we need more funding dmitriz joined the channel
tantek Good morning all! Reminder, SocialCG meeting (first Fridays now!) in ~10min: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6b91f267-6cb4-41ca-9a67-5035cee827dd/20240301T130000/
RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/01-social-irc
eprodrom scribe: eprodrom