#wordpress 2017-12-11

2017-12-11 UTC
[aaronpk], jackivan88, [eddie], [tantek], [manton], zb111, [miklb], tantek, tantek_, j12t, jeremycherfas and [pfefferle] joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] good morning
#
[pfefferle] !tell miklb it is hard to rename the SL plugin, because it is hosted on WordPress.org and this can’t be changed easily… the only thing that can be changed is the display name, but I am not sure if this results in search-problems
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
[jeremycherfas] and [pfefferle] joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] might be relevant for Webmetions and other PESOS/backfeed systems: https://www.gdprwp.com
#
Zegnat GDPR << https://www.gdprwp.com/
#
sknebel interesting
#
Loqi ok, I added "https://www.gdprwp.com/" to the "See Also" section of /GDPR
#
GWG Hello, pfefferle
[miklb] joined the channel
#
[miklb] good morning
#
Loqi [miklb]: [pfefferle] left you a message 3 hours, 45 minutes ago: it is hard to rename the SL plugin, because it is hosted on WordPress.org and this can’t be changed easily… the only thing that can be changed is the display name, but I am not sure if this results in search-problems
#
GWG Hi, miklb
#
Loqi morning!
#
[miklb] howdy
#
[miklb] https://twitter.com/GaryJ/status/940176897228582912
#
@GaryJ PHP 5.2: 3.7% usage for #WordPress sites according to https://wordpress.org/about/stats/ I reckon even a bump to 5.3 will see % for 5.3, 5.4, 5.5 etc. increasingly fall, as folks jump straight to 5.6 or 7.0+. Please can we make a move in 2018? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQwtS4FVwAAu16X.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/940176897228582912)
#
GWG What do you think of that?
#
[miklb] I think WordPress needs to push the envelope on php, especially as they keep adding all that “modern” javascript to the admin via Gutenberg
#
GWG I am barely on ancient JavaScript.
#
[miklb] I would be curious the activity level of the sites still on 5.2 Meaning, are they active blogs or just old ghost installs, basically static at this point
tantek joined the channel
#
GWG miklb, I have a problem
#
[miklb] anything I can help with?
#
GWG snarfed and Micropub
#
GWG snarfed is right, but I am not sure right helps
#
GWG He wants to solve the big problem. How plugins work together
#
GWG But we've been talking since June and can't seem to move forward on that
#
GWG I want to contribute to the Micropub plugin, but resolving the conflict is an issue
#
GWG I feel it is holding me back. I find it hard enough to do unit tests
#
[miklb] I think the best thing would be for you, snarfed and pfefferle to be together in a (virtual) room together and brainstorm and hash it out, rather than a prolonged, delayed discussion spread over several different GitHub issue threads. Plus any other WordPress devs with a stake in the conversation, but the 3 of you driving the conversation.
#
[miklb] that’s my 2¢
#
GWG Might be worth it. As I said, I agree we need to solve it
#
GWG I really would like to move rendering out of everyone's plugin to the Microformats 2 plugin.
#
GWG Basically, have it take the templating system.
#
GWG So themes could override.
#
[miklb] my suggestion would be not use the mf2 plugin if it still doesn’t any output for themes, and use the core IW plugin to store the data since the mf2 plugin conflicts with mf2 ready themes
[jeremycherfas] joined the channel
#
[jeremycherfas] Does Facebook provide author photos in likes? I’ve got likes to a post shared on FB coming back via brid.gy but nothing showing on my site. The like is there, but nothing visible in the facepile.
#
sknebel [jeremycherfas]: I've seen faces from facebook on other pages
#
sknebel you could look at the brid-gy.appspot.com link to check if it has a valid image in the author card
#
GWG miklb, I will try to see if we can get all three of us, plus maybe you are kraftbj in chat at the same time.
#
[jeremycherfas] @sknebel I see the faces at brid.gy but not in my site. I guess that means that FB is sending the u-photo but I’m losing it somewhere. Thanks for the tip. I’ll investigate
#
[jeremycherfas] Huh! I seemed to remember someone saying they had to deactivate and reactivate SL, so I did that, and there they are.
#
[jeremycherfas] Isn’t the internet magic?
[manton], tantek, [miklb] and [pfefferle] joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] hey hey
#
GWG pfefferle, can we solve the mf2 rendering issue soon, one way or the other?
#
GWG We have not decided on a definitive way forward and it has been 6 months
tantek_ joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] 😉
#
[pfefferle] I am not sure if I can help a lot…
#
[pfefferle] I am not using the IndieWeb plugin nor the uf2 plugin… so I vote for a decentralized solution…
#
[miklb] decentralized how? Another plugin that works in the background? How many will we require?
#
[pfefferle] no, no plugin between
#
[pfefferle] only theme and plugin
#
[pfefferle] decentralized
#
[pfefferle] or maybe the theme as the central
tantek_ joined the channel
#
[miklb] what if you want to switch themes? Obviously the data is stored in the user database, but something needs to be the key to everything being able to access it equally. At least that’s what I understand the problem trying to be solved
#
[pfefferle] but that means that you always have to start with the indieweb plugin… and themes in combination with plugins might not always work…
#
[miklb] well, we kinda already direct people to the IW plugin as a starting point…
#
GWG pfefferle, you use neither Post Kinds nor Micropub, and none of your themes pull post metadata though
#
[pfefferle] exactly
#
GWG So, for you, that aspect is abstract
#
[pfefferle] yes
#
[pfefferle] and thats why I am maybe not the right person to discuss it 😉
#
GWG But we need to solve it from the theming perspective
#
GWG I like the plugin template solution I use in Post Kinds
#
[pfefferle] I am working on ZenPress to support additional informations, but I do not need a global data-pool for that
#
GWG Miklb can include a file in his theme to render the data
#
[pfefferle] at least not yet
#
[pfefferle] I can implement post-kinds and simple-location things already
#
[pfefferle] I use functions for that… not db entries
#
GWG Functions for which?
#
[pfefferle] to get the location or the syndications or …
#
GWG Yes. I just store them in post post meta. Anyone can grab them
#
GWG On the data side, Micropub and Post Kinds play nicely.
#
GWG We both store in the same places now.
#
GWG mf2_ or for location, geo_
#
GWG Not enough themes support mf2 though
#
GWG We can't count on people using a compatible theme
#
GWG So, I switched to the plugin doing the html creation allowing override by CSS or by complete template
#
GWG That allows for a theme to do as little or as much as it wishes.
[cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
GWG I am curious to see what you come up with, pfefferle.
tantek_ joined the channel
#
GWG We just need to all get together on this. It is holding things back in attracting new community members
#
[pfefferle] Hmmm
#
tantek agreed GWG
#
GWG I am willing to go along with most things
#
GWG I will just continue on my round the plugins tour
#
GWG I have improvements to the H-Card and rel-me functionality in Indieweb
#
[pfefferle] Yes, but that handles my theme for me
#
GWG If I read aaronpk's book, I could become enough of an expert to improve Indieauth
#
GWG got an autographed copy
#
[miklb] I think that’s the root of the question pfefferle “my theme for me” vs building a broader community experience.
#
GWG And I built a way to post URLs to my site with the REST API
#
GWG miklb++
#
Loqi miklb has 10 karma in this channel (62 overall)
#
GWG I try to do both
#
[miklb] I’m struggling with that right now.
#
[pfefferle] I understand your problems
#
GWG I build features for myself. But I try to make them easily extensible for others
#
GWG Example... you don't want to use x, I'll make it easy to shut off.
#
[pfefferle] Agreed
#
GWG You want the citation at the bottom, vs the top..well, simple.
#
[miklb] and since webmentions/semantic linkbacks are your plugins but at the core of the IW WP experience, your input is important if not necessary
#
[pfefferle] Thanks 🙂
#
[pfefferle] miklb++
#
Loqi miklb has 11 karma in this channel (63 overall)
#
GWG pfefferle, you are my inspiration at many times
#
GWG Namely, you do something and I immediately copy it and iterate on it
#
[pfefferle] ☺
#
[pfefferle] Thanks
#
GWG Composer and grunt, for example
#
[pfefferle] GWG++
#
Loqi gwg has 24 karma in this channel (283 overall)
#
GWG I have an issue proposed for your deployment script to add assets to the update.
#
[pfefferle] Here is my point: I understand the idea with the uf2 or indieweb plugin, but I have the feeling that it limits the possibilities
#
[pfefferle] If the indieweb plugin is the first entry point, perfect
#
GWG pfefferle, any theme can announce a dependency
tantek joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] But if not, it is a mess
#
[pfefferle] You do not want to tell people that they have to install the indieweb plugin to use webmentions
#
[pfefferle] Only if the plugin is a monolith
#
[pfefferle] And implements all functionalities
#
GWG This is why we are still stuck on this
#
[miklb] the counter to that is that just installing the webmention plugin doesn’t *do* anything, so then the user has to go down a rabbit hole of figuring out why webmentions aren’t showing up/sending
#
GWG pfefferle, do you want a monolith?
#
tantek miklb++
#
Loqi miklb has 12 karma in this channel (64 overall)
#
[pfefferle] But the plugin works perfect without any other plugin
#
[miklb] how? if you don’t have mf2 in your theme, and don’t have semantic linkbacks to help display, and don’t have an h-card
#
[pfefferle] But it shows something and sends something
#
[miklb] So I can take a vanilla WP site with 2017 and install webmentions what is the experience?
#
[pfefferle] You get mentions and you send mentions
#
[miklb] get them, but will they show up as a comment?
#
[pfefferle] Yes
#
GWG Just not very interestingly
#
[miklb] hmm. And if I don’t have mf2 in my theme, how will my mention look on the other end?
#
GWG I need to work on the settings for Webmention again
#
[pfefferle] ... mentioned this article on ...
#
[pfefferle] Or „your article was mentioned on ...“
#
[miklb] Interesting. I guess my experience of wanting to use Bridgy and backfeeds wasn’t that simple, which I think a lot of people want/expect after seeing demos
#
GWG People expect more.
#
[pfefferle] Sure, but not to install a bunch of plugins to see results
#
[pfefferle] Even because wordpress do not support plugin dependencies
#
GWG So, back to a Semantic Linkbacks-Webmentions merger
#
[miklb] understood, and since I don’t think anyone is ready to give up control of their plugins and create a monolith, back to how can each plugin “talk” to each other as well as themes and work within the WP limitations while still building a user base 😄
#
[miklb] userbase that doesn’t include people willing/wanting to write their own theme from scratch
#
[pfefferle] Exactly
#
GWG I am willing to give up total control to group control
#
GWG As long as we keep doing things.
#
[miklb] Where I fit into this is I’m trying to build a theme that ties all of the different plugins together so a user could install the theme out of the box and not have to fiddle with the theme,but be able to change a header image, colors, etc. Not in the WP repo, but a single installer that does update via the admin
#
GWG miklb, it is doable
#
[miklb] It is. But I need to work methodically and look at the gotchas. Way my brain is wired.
[eddie] and tantek_ joined the channel
#
GWG pfefferle, on another note, are there still blockers to a Semantic Linkbacks merge?
#
[miklb] pfefferle I do apologize, I thought the webmention plugin was all under the hood and didn’t show anything without additional plugins. Good to know it does have front facing functionality.
#
[pfefferle] miklb no problem
#
[pfefferle] GWG the sl plugin is a grown mess
#
GWG pfefferle, what would clean it?
#
GWG I think it has evolved
#
[pfefferle] Where should I start?
#
GWG pfefferle, anywhere?
#
[pfefferle] Avatar handling, comment types, the parsing, the class structure, ....
#
GWG The class structure?
#
[miklb] is this where someone says “perfection is enemy of good” 😂
#
GWG Avatar handling I agree
#
[pfefferle] miklb yes 😁
#
GWG Comment types should be set, but we'd have to write the code WordPress doesn't on that.
#
[pfefferle] We already do with webmentions
#
[pfefferle] I love the simple and clean structure of the Webmention plugin ;)
#
[pfefferle] I would love to see the Webmention plugin as part of the core
#
[pfefferle] That’s why I try to keep them separated
#
GWG pfefferle, then maybe we should make that a focus
#
[miklb] I think until Gutenberg is released into core & 5.0 mid summer, that will be a loosing battle
#
GWG I have a few settings I want to work on. Maybe we should submit the code as a patch.
#
[pfefferle] But all points we are discussing atm do not help with your problems
#
GWG pfefferle, agreed
#
GWG My problems are about mf2 rendering.
#
[pfefferle] 😉
#
GWG But we should discuss all things more often
#
[miklb] GWG++
#
Loqi gwg has 25 karma in this channel (284 overall)
#
GWG Have a plan
#
[pfefferle] Ok, why not define some fixed dates?
#
[pfefferle] The second Monday in a month or every second Monday or...
tantek_ joined the channel
#
GWG pfefferle, I am up for that when I can
#
[pfefferle] If it fits my spare time
#
[pfefferle] Does this sentence make sense?
#
[pfefferle] Brb
#
GWG If you can spare the time?
#
GWG Either way, will press forward...
#
GWG (If my plane ever departs.)
#
[pfefferle] I meant if it is in my free time
#
[pfefferle] Because of the different timelines
#
[pfefferle] Timezones
#
GWG Well, we can figure it out
#
GWG pfefferle, you also don't use Micropub, correct?
#
[miklb] might I suggest picking a day & time now and see if it works when it comes? 1/8/18 would be 2nd Monday of next month
#
GWG Also, what times are you free usually?
[tantek], [jeremycherfas], aaronpk, tantek and [pfefferle] joined the channel
#
[pfefferle] Correct
#
[pfefferle] Now starts my free time
[miklb] joined the channel
#
[miklb] 1/8/18 20:00 GMT?
#
[pfefferle] Sounds good
#
GWG Set a timer
#
[pfefferle] GWG I Love Gutenberg and that’s why I do not use any post api
#
GWG pfefferle, I am not sure how Gutenberg will work out for me and am waiting to see
#
GWG I like the idea of it
#
GWG The reality is still in question
#
[pfefferle] True, but I do not see advantages of external post interfaces
tbbrown joined the channel
#
[miklb] miklb set the channel topic: First general WordPress plugin/theme discussion 1/8/18 20:00 GMT join us to help plan the interactivity of the IndieWeb WP ecosystem.
#
[miklb] does that show up in IRC?
#
[miklb] Slack channel topic that is
#
GWG I am not on a client that shows it
#
sknebel [miklb]: it shows up as text, but does not change the IRC channel
#
[miklb] “First general WordPress plugin/theme discussion 1/8/18 20:00 GMT join us to help plan the interactivity of the IndieWeb WP ecosystem.” test run for it before adding to wiki and elsewhere
#
[miklb] I didn’t think it updated IRC channel topic, just curious if it showed up there for feedback
#
sknebel I see [20:32:07] <[miklb]> miklb set the channel topic: First general WordPress plugin/theme discussion 1/8/18 20:00 GMT join us to help plan the interactivity of the IndieWeb WP ecosystem.
#
[miklb] ok, well, any feedback on the wording?
#
sknebel maybe make it clearer that it's online. maybe "join us here"?
#
[pfefferle] From a german perspective: perfect
#
[miklb] yes, definitely need to include link to /discuss#WordPress or what ever the link is 🙂
[manton] and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] miklb++
#
Loqi miklb has 13 karma in this channel (65 overall)
#
[miklb] I suppose an RSVP could be set up
#
[pfefferle] Gogogo
#
[miklb] OK, I shall write up a little blog post/RSVP this evening
#
[miklb] and add it to wiki etc
#
[miklb] maybe even start an itinerary in the wiki o_O
#
[pfefferle] Gogogo 🙂
#
GWG Agenda
#
GWG Itinerary is something else
#
[miklb] yes, thanks
#
[miklb] can you tell I don’t do many meetings lol
#
[miklb] pfefferle one point about micropub - it’s not always about a posting interface when you take into account services like OwnYourGram, OwnYourSwarm or apps like Indigenous for likes, bookmarks, replies, etc
#
GWG Milkb, we aren't asking for parliamentary procedure here
#
[miklb] OK
#
[pfefferle] miklb ok, that’s a point
#
[pfefferle] But this is not yet a usecase for me
#
GWG pfefferle, I want to post links from my phone and own my bookmarks.
#
GWG Long standing goal
#
[pfefferle] Also valid
#
[pfefferle] But also not yet a usecase for me 😉
#
[miklb] lol
#
[pfefferle] My indie is other than yours 😂
#
GWG pfefferle, what do you want to do?
#
[pfefferle] Own my thoughts
#
[pfefferle] And the reactions to it
#
[pfefferle] But mainly longreads
#
[miklb] miklb set the channel topic: First general WordPress plugin/theme discussion 1/8/18 20:00 GMT join us at https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat (#indieweb-wordpress in IRC, #wordpress in Slack) to help plan the interactivity of the IndieWeb WP ecosystem.
#
[miklb] “the reactions to it” could encompass others who use micropub 😉
#
[pfefferle] Can you comment trough micropub?
#
[miklb] yes. I can post a bookmark and include a comment
j12t joined the channel
#
[miklb] comment/reaction/thought about what/why I’m bookmarking. At least I do, not sure if that’s exactly how bookmarks are meant to be used
#
[pfefferle] Ok, but as I said I use my blog mainly as a blog 😉
#
[miklb] that’s totally fair. I’m working towards having my blog as my blog and a separate personal domain for all of my web interactions. I certainly am not advocating for changing your ways. Just noting that to grow the WP ecosystem in the broader IW sense, embracing micropub isn’t a bad thing
#
GWG Micropub for comments isn't quite a thing
[eddie] joined the channel
#
[miklb] wait, now I’m fundamentally confused. Is a reply not a comment? Because you can most certainly do a reply via micropub
#
aaronpk I assume he meant no Micropub for posting comments into the comment section of a WordPress post
#
GWG I did
#
GWG But Micropubing a reply...
#
GWG Fine
#
[pfefferle] me too 😉
#
aaronpk You can post a reply on *your* site via Micropub but you can't post a reply to my site via Micropub
#
[miklb] well, yeah, but isn’t that what a webmention at it’s core is?
#
GWG Exactly
#
[miklb] wait, aaronpk are you saying if I want to do a reply to a post on your site I can’t do that via micropub? What’s the reply button on Quill for?
#
GWG That does a reply on your site, not his
#
aaronpk When you do that you're posting to your site not mine
#
[pfefferle] you can, but it is not a direct reply to the post, but a post on your site, that sends a webmention....
#
[miklb] lol, I thought that was the whole idea, to move to that as a normal means of discussion
#
aaronpk Wait what
#
aaronpk I jumped in in the middle of this conversation, sorry if I confused things
#
[miklb] if I reply to your post, it shows up on my site and sends you a webmention, which you choose to display or not
#
aaronpk Yep that's what I expect
#
[miklb] and that can be done via micropub
#
[pfefferle] sure, but that was not my initial question 😉
#
[pfefferle] never mind
#
[miklb] no, I genuinely want to understand. I am definitely confused
#
[pfefferle] I thought about a direct comment to a post
#
[miklb] I see
#
[miklb] I guess I consider the native comment box a place for people who do not have an “indieweb” site to still be able to add to the discussion, but the idea is to encourage folks to use their own site to do so. Which they can do via micropub. I think I’m confusing a reply with a comment though?
[cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
[miklb] perhaps this is also a broader discussion than just #wordpress
#
aaronpk What's the discussion exactly?
#
GWG Might be
#
[pfefferle] I don't think so... most of the indieweb community are thinking about posts on their sites as replys to others...
#
aaronpk What is a native comment?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "native comment" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "native comment is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
aaronpk Hm I thought we had that
#
aaronpk [pfefferle]: what do you mean? Most of the posts on my site are not replies
#
[pfefferle] no, I meant most of the indieweb folks are replying with their own site instead of "native commenting"
#
[pfefferle] I am too much of a WordPress user, thats why I always think about comments when I hear replys 😉
#
aaronpk The decision to allow native comments on a site is up to each person and there definitely isn't a consensus
#
[pfefferle] sure, I only wanted to say that there is not really a discussion needed, I simply misunderstood something...
#
[pfefferle] let's implement the native provider
#
[pfefferle] and/or client
#
[pfefferle] GWG just transfered the indieauth plugin https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth
#
Loqi [indieweb] wordpress-indieauth: IndieAuth for WordPress
#
[miklb] now I understand pfefferle it’s interesting because now I instinctually assume a comment/reply is a webmention whether via bridgy backfeed from Twitter or directly from micro.blog or a personal domain
Kaja_ and deltab_ joined the channel
#
wagle why does upgrading indieweb wordpress plugins tend to diverge these days (like symantic-links)?
#
GWG wagle: Diverge?
#
GWG What do you mean?
#
wagle sorry, infinite loop
#
wagle how do I debug it.. i find no log files
#
GWG Infinite loop? I'm not sure what you mean
#
GWG First, can you elaborate
#
wagle i try to upgrade and it just sits and spins, eventualy to be autokilled after 15 minutes or so
#
wagle does not get upgraded
#
GWG That doesn't sound like the plugin itself though
#
wagle 3 plugins to upgrade, just this one consistantly fails to work
#
GWG Very odd
#
GWG Semantic Linkbacks?
#
wagle yes
#
GWG Can you try manually installing?
#
wagle would actually like to know why its failing than to accidentally fix it
#
GWG Is there anything in the server logs?
#
GWG It is a strange issue.
#
GWG Did you try uninstalling it completely and installing it again?
#
wagle about to try that
#
GWG Not installing it from the command line, just from the site itself
#
GWG Will stay around
#
GWG I'm free till morning
#
wagle hmm/ it has (had) data
[miklb] joined the channel
#
[miklb] I don’t believe the plugin deletes anything from your database when uninstalled
voxpelli joined the channel