#indiewebcamp 2011-06-28

2011-06-28 UTC
brennannovak and TabAtkins joined the channel
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/geekygirldawn] After spending all weekend here at #indieweb, I'm back for @mobileportland. mHealth: How Mobile Can Make Us Healthier http://bit.ly/isvjwD
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tantek greetings
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tantek welcome back skinnywhitegirl
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tantek beaulebens - sorry to miss you! Will Norris did some nice work on a wordpress plugin for the indieweb.
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beaulebens heya tantek
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beaulebens nice! i saw a tweet from him -- snowflake? :)
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tantek edited /Guest_List (+264) "moved a few folks that I don't think I saw this past weekend to the missed table" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Guest_List (+185) "let's make an IndieWebCamp Class of 2011 yearbook!" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Guest_List (-7) "remove extra close span" (view diff)
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geekygirldawn edited /Guest_List (+0) "moved Doug and Jillian to the missed you section, since I didn't see them at the event." (view diff)
beaulebens, tantek, caseorganic, brennannovak, hadleybeeman, josephboyle, skinnywhitegirl, dbounds, unclenate, dbounds1, MarkDilley and DawnFoster joined the channel
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tantek brennannovak - were you talking about how to cite the source or canonical version of a post?
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tantek Atom has rel-via - which we may want to define for use in HTML.
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brennannovak tantek: yes, but more so in regards to the ActivityStream verb
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tantek which verb?
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brennannovak currently the spec seems to suggest "post" or "update" when creating new content on a site
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/grigs] @evanpro missed you at indiewebcamp last weekend. are you coming to town for OSCON?
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brennannovak but neither really apply when archiving or ingesting all my data from a source like flickr, etc...
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brennannovak aaronpk and I were thinking about proposing a new verb type "repost" thoughts?
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tantek brennannovak - first, to be clear, verbs are inappropriate for rel values. rel values must be nouns. http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#How_is_rel_used
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brennannovak right, this is not for rel=
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tantek ok cool
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tantek so for activitystreams, since that came from Atom, they "respostness" of it would simply be indicated by the presence of a <link rel="via" href="originalURL" /> inside the <entry>
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tantek s/they/the
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tantek no need to reinvent that mechanism from Atom
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tantek unless I'm missing something
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brennannovak hrm ok
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brennannovak one sec
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tantek there was also the <source> element
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brennannovak See this activity stream spec http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/1.0/#examples
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brennannovak see the verb: "post"
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brennannovak I'm referring to the feed which is generated (then re-consumed elsewhere)
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brennannovak or here
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brennannovak http://activitystrea.ms/specs/atom/1.0/#examples
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brennannovak <activity:verb>post</activity:verb>
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aaronpk catching up on backlog...
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tantek hmm...
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brennannovak tantek: does that make sense?
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tantek looks like "via" really means more of a credit where found thing rather than "original"
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tantek so that's insufficient
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aaronpk right, so if twitter or buzz were to consume tantek's stream from tantek.com, what verb would they use for the activity?
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tantek I mean, rel="via" would be a true assertion on a source URL
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tantek however it would be insufficient to imply that the rel-via link *is* the source of the post
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tantek e.g. http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/1434
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tantek ah yes
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tantek http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt
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tantek 4.2.11. The "atom:source" Element
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tantek I believe that's how you're supposed to indicate reposts
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tantek aaronpk - no verb necessary other than the implied "post" verb - however they must include a nested <source> element that indicates where the original post came from
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aaronpk I suppose if the original activity had a verb other than post, then it would make sense to keep that same verb rather than change it to "repost"
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tantek brennannovak - the problem is that any activity could have been posted *somewhere else* and the current stream may just be reposting it. thus something like a "source" element or JSON property for the new AS makes more sense
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tantek huh - just noticed it's raining in SF - ok - back to random unexpected weather then.
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aaronpk heh, nice and grey and partially rainy in portland today too
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tantek brennannovak - I found some previous discussion here - probably worth checking it out: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/1359243/Cross-Posting
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brennannovak right, I suppose I feel more with Activity Streams than Atom and my suggestion would be that content originally uploaded to Flickr (or anywhere) would considered a "post" verb ---> once ingested to my site it would be a "repost" and then any additional sites that consume my feed would also be a "repost"
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tantek see also:
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tantek https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F4JZo0244ZkJ:martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atomcrosspost
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tantek looks like "crosspost" is how this was described previously
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tantek crosspost makes more sense to me to imply *across* multiple sites
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tantek whereas repost implies it might actually be a repost on the same site
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tantek "re" just meaning "repeat" here
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shaners whoa. the channel is actually be used by humans, not just wiki bots
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aaronpk the humans were too busy talking to each other over the weekend to also talk on irc :)
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brennannovak hehe
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brennannovak tantek: gotcha I see... makes sense. So even tho that example on the cross posting page does not make mention of <activity:verb> I should just consider it a "post"
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tantek right
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tantek I think any "verb" could be crossposted - which is the challenge
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brennannovak okie doke! full steam ahead!
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tantek I don't like the implementation of the crosspost extension (namespaces etc.)
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tantek but do think something similar should be figured out for the AS JSON
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tantek hence I'd start with the wiki: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/1359243/Cross-Posting
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tantek and feel free to edit/make proposals there
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brennannovak is the best place to propose things in the Google Group?
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tantek brennannovak - I would write it up on the wiki first
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brennannovak the indie web wiki?
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tantek I like the indiewebcamp.com wiki URLs better (shorter, self-hosted) rather than activitystreams (longer due to being hosted on pbwiki)
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tantek yeah
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tantek it's more indie
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tantek indiewebcamp.com's wiki is on a server controlled by an individual rather than a corp
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tantek activitystreams' wiki is just a mapping of a hosted solution by pbworks.com
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tantek this is cool: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=indiewebcamp+OR+indieweb&ss=2&s=rec
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tantek aaronpk - amber and I had discussed where/how the IRC logs should/could be published
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tantek and she suggested merely publishing them on the wiki
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tantek which could make sense - perhaps as read-only or admin-write-only pages
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caseorganic yeah - as a log
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tantek hey caseorganic! :)
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caseorganic hey tantek!
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caseorganic i'm a lurker.
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caseorganic i like the idea of putting everything in the same place -- logs, notes, etc. even photos of the sessions copied into the wiki from flickr with a citation of where they came from.
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tantek caseorganic - I noticed you created a second "why" page
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tantek did you miss the "Why" page?
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caseorganic haha
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caseorganic yes!
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Loqi rofl
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caseorganic the question is, why did i miss the why page?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Why
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caseorganic i'll you know why?
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caseorganic because one was capitalized
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caseorganic and the other wasn't
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tantek I didn't realize our mediawiki install was customized to allow non-capital starting pages
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caseorganic thus, i saw a red link on the first one
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caseorganic and filled it in.
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tantek where was there a red link?
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caseorganic yes
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caseorganic for why vs. Why
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tantek usually mediawiki redirects why to Why
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caseorganic correct
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caseorganic th
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caseorganic that's what i assumed, and was surprised, so filled it in
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caseorganic i'll merge the changes
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tantek ah
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aaronpk I made it case sensitive to support the openid logins
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tantek yes feel free to add to the Why page
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caseorganic ah ha! got it!
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tantek aaronpk - great
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dbounds1 Nice. There's actual conversation happening here.
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caseorganic Yes! Hello!
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tantek ok I just sent the Activitiy-Streams list a note inviting them to use our IRC channel since they don't have one (lol)
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tantek and since we're discussing activity streams stuff
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caseorganic great.
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tantek IMHO activity streams are a core component of enabling/empowering/deploying the indie web
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+4) (view diff)
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tantek so we can include all that conversation here no problem
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dbounds1 I'm not sure too many would dispute that.
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tantek plus they don't have an IRC channel, and we (deliberately) don't have a mailing list.
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tantek you know what was not discussed at all (from what I remember) this past weekend?
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tantek (and thus indicates that maybe it is both unnecessary and no one cares in practice - that is - on their own indie web sites)
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tantek any guesses?
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aaronpk checkins?
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tantek I discussed geo checkins in my publish then syndicate discussion
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aaronpk oh right
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aaronpk photos?
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aaronpk i give up
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aaronpk tell us!
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tantek um - the whole Flickr back up / syndicate to Flick project!
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tantek ok I'll give you a hint
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tantek CamelCase
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tantek two words
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caseorganic CamelCase!
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tantek :)
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caseorganic I remember mentioning that
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caseorganic but not as a general topic
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tantek first word: "Web"
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tantek second word: "Finger"
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aaronpk WebFinger?
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caseorganic WebFinger
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aaronpk ah yea
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tantek The IndieWeb does not care about WebFinger - because it doesn't need it.
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dbounds1 What makes you say that?
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caseorganic This should also be a wiki page.
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tantek because it wasn't even *mentioned* the entire weekend.
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caseorganic edited /Why (+781) (view diff)
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brennannovak I whole heartedly agree with tantek about activity streams
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tantek it turns out, when you focus on actual pragmatic/practical discussions of what *you* need to build/code/ux/design for *your* indie web site, people DO NOT CARE about WebFinger
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caseorganic edited /Why (-5) (view diff)
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tantek they *so* don't care that it doesn't even come up
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tantek dbounds1 - thus I'm fairly convinced that WebFinger is pretty much a waste of time
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aaronpk CamelCase: http://aaron.pk/snip/2011-06-28_1039.png
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dbounds1 webfinger or discovery in general?
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tantek oh we did plenty of work on discovery
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tantek just turns out none of it needed webfinger
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tantek you know what else was not mentioned the entire weekend?
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tantek XRDS
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dbounds1 is any of this discovery conversation documented?
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brennannovak tantek: hrm... I kinda feel web finger (or the whole OStatus stack) wasn't discussed much all weekend because everyone was talking about different dimensions of what the "indie web" means
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evanpro Woooo
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aaronpk evan! hi!
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+183) (view diff)
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dbounds1 Personally, I'm not interested in anything that leverages XML. ;)
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caseorganic Hello, Evan!
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evanpro tantek: just saw your post to activitystrea.ms
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evanpro dbounds1: yo
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dbounds1 yo evan
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tantek brennannovak - nope, it was because we were focused on *actual* practical solutions for *ourselves*
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caseorganic created /XRDS (+113) "Created page with 'June 28, 2011 [10:40am] tantek: you know what else was not mentioned the entire weekend? [10:40am] tantek: XRDS'" (view diff)
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brennannovak true
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tantek rather than architectures for theoretical needs of the masses
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tantek which is what nearly all other groups in this space are hung-up on
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tantek caseorganic - lol
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dbounds1 Depending on what you're building XRD/JRD and WebFinger are quite useful. I'd be interested in hearing what alternatives were proposed / suggested / used from the weekend.
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brennannovak yes, that is what I mean... we all were just focusing on our own implementations- which seem to be more about consuming / posting to large sites like Twitter / Facebook already
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tantek and welcome evanpro
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apparentlymart ahoy
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tantek brennannovak - we were prioritizing in personal and practical ways.
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brennannovak yes, whoot!
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tantek and it turns out, when you do that, such things as XRD/WebFinger are actually not necessary
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tantek or rather
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tantek there's more important practical work to be done *first*
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brennannovak precisely
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tantek when you get around to actually building a site that *YOU* will use for YOURSELF
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voxpelli sounds like a great approach
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tantek evanpro - definitely missed you this weekend
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caseorganic created /WebFinger (+2410) "Created page with 'June 28, 2011 [10:38am] tantek: The IndieWeb does not care about WebFinger - because it doesn't need it. [10:38am] dbounds1: What makes you say that? [10:38am] tantek: becaus…'" (view diff)
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evanpro tantek: sorry I missed it!
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tantek some amazing things got built / designed
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caseorganic edited /Why (+1) (view diff)
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caseorganic edited /XRDS (+30) (view diff)
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+37) (view diff)
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dbounds1 If the 'indieweb' is only about you interacting with the existing, centralized social web then perhaps XRD and WebFinger don't have a part to play. However, if it's more than that and also involves discovery and interaction with other indieweb resources in a federated way it seems they actually play quite a bit part.
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dbounds1 s/bit/big/
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tantek dbounds1 your assertion of " actually play quite a bit part" is not backed up by actual implementations being used by actual individuals on their indiewebsites
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tantek and no - we did talk about indieweb <-> indieweb interactions this weekend
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tantek in particular - with web intents
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dbounds1 well, that could be said for federated social web entities in general
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tantek being on indieweb site 1 and being able to click a "favorite" button next to a post, and have that "favoriting" go on indieweb site 2 (where the user is presumably logged into their own site)
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tantek and yeah - previous discussions have over-emphasized federation - when that's not the most important thing that indieweb site users/builders care about
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tantek they care about staying in touch with their friends
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dbounds1 myself personally, I don't want to need to leave my indieweb site in order to need to interact with social content on another indieweb site.
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tantek dbounds1 - can you describe that as a specific use-case the way I did?
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tantek designing by the negative rarely yields anything useful
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dbounds1 Something as simple as clicking an @mention in a note or status update.
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dbounds1 I want to be able to link to a local resource on my indieweb site that can retrieve all of the necessary data from the remote indieweb resource the @mention'd user exists to display it in the context of my own website.
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/tracyshaun] own the data your create. syndicate to 3rd party silos. IndieWeb FTW: http://t.co/m81ixqi << awesome notes & write-ups
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dbounds1 XRD and WebFinger are necessary for that to occur
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tantek nope
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tantek dbounds1 - a mentioned user is merely a URL
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tantek at that URL you have an hCard - photo, name etc.
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tantek done
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp.png]]""
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tantek zero XRD and WebFinger necessary
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tantek this is the point
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tantek when you actually get down to building this stuff for yourself
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tantek you build the cheapest simplest thing possible
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dbounds1 That seems somewhat inefficient and also imposes quite a few requirements on the remote site
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+137) (view diff)
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voxpelli tantek: but one doesn't exclude the other - right?
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tantek and that turns out to be leverage extremely simple existing work
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tantek URLs and microformats are ever-present on the web
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+0) (view diff)
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tantek so why bother with what you don't need?
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tantek dbounds1 - "seems" inefficient? you have no data
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tantek "impose requirements"? no - we are leveraging existing publishing patterns
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tantek people have indie web sites
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tantek people have their hCard on their indie web sites
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dbounds1 If you're going to require the remote URL include microformats in the markup, why not just require mandatory JSON resources that expose the same information in a more condensed format.
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tantek this isn't a "requirement"
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tantek it's a "here's what people already do today"
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tantek and guess what
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tantek it's MUCH easier/simpler to post an hCard
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tantek than support XRD/WebFinger
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tantek on your indie web site
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tantek dbounds1. hidden metadata. DRY.
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pfefferle but there are still problems like the representative hcard http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard
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tantek pfefferle - s/problems/solutions
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dbounds1 XRD and WebFinger allow for a more flexible resource structure that's easily and consistently discoverable.
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tantek more flexible for *whom*
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dbounds1 for the remote URL
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tantek need for that flexibility is unproven
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tantek that's part of the point of what happens when you actually sit down to build this stuff
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voxpelli that a microformat isn't tied to the url can be a problem sometimes
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tantek such theoretical assertions of "need" and "flexible" DONT EVEN COME UP
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tantek when you're actually building
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voxpelli we've run into that on Flattr when modelling our discovery mechanisms
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dbounds1 sure, and if that flexibility is not needed, there are more compact ways to define the information at predictable URLs relative to the remote URL
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tantek voxpelli - back that up with a specific URL of *yours* with a specific use-case
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tantek otherwise - who cares
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voxpelli tantek: most WordPress blogs has (only) XFN in blog rolls - and we need to know who owns a url so we can know who to give a donation to
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tantek donations - check out tipjar and http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-payment
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tantek ah yes
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tantek more theoretical examples that DID NOT COME UP THIS WEEKEND:
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dbounds1 Example: http://dbounds.glow.io/profile/json?format=json
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tantek * donations
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tantek * tipjars
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tantek turns out - those are not a priority
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tantek so this really is a big exercise is real world prioritization
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tantek the problems you're worrying about - are not important to the indie web
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tantek dbounds1 - that's a bunch of JSON - I would never browse to that
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:flickr-backup-session.png]]""
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tantek nor send a user to it
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dbounds1 You dont' browse to that
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dbounds1 you don't need to browse to that and that's the point.
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tantek that was another big difference of this weekend
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tantek every single discussion started with a user-centric use-case
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dbounds1 I don't want to leave the context of my indieweb site to view and/or interact with that data.
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voxpelli tantek: yeah - I understand that
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tantek dbounds1 - see about about negative reasoning
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tantek see *above*
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:flickr-backup-aaronpk-brennannovak.png]]""
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tantek repost: [10:52] dbounds1 - can you describe that as a specific use-case the way I did?
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tantek [10:52] tantek: designing by the negative rarely yields anything useful
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dbounds1 Ok. As I described, I want to remain in the context of my website when interacting with and discovery content from around the indieweb.
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tantek that's not a use-case, that's a "want"
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dbounds1 Yes, I can discover that remove information by parsing a URL extracting the microformats/microdata/etc but if we're avoiding XRD/WebFinger imposing a structure on the remote URL resource we might as well just define a dictionary of remote resources that expose the information in purely machine readable formats.
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tantek no because that violates visible data and DRY.
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caseorganic :)
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brennannovak-sings-a-tune.png]]""
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dbounds1 That's the way the social web works today and in order to compete with closed experiences we need to build a system that can support those interactions in elegant ways.
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tantek every time you say "purely machine readable format" you're probably making a mistake, specifically, because of the "purely"
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apparentlymart I think the biggest disconnect in this discussion is that tantek wants to build his own indie site in spite of the rest of the web, exploiting work others already did rather than making them do new work
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dbounds1 Ok, I mean machine first, human second.
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tantek dbounds1 - I think you may be mistaken about how web intents work
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apparentlymart which I'd agree is a good bootstrapping technique
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tantek because they allow that kind of interaction
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apparentlymart but dbounds1 is imagining a world where everyone works together to solve the problem
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apparentlymart so both producer and consumer are willing to put some additional work in to make it happen
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tantek apparentlymart - solutions that have succeeded have always been built that way - not by imagining the ideal world
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dbounds1 not everyone necessarily but a single system/product.
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tantek but by building for yourself first, within existing behaviors
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tantek and deployed technologies
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brian-ledger-session.png]]""
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tantek apparentlymart - yeah the "both producer and consumer are willing to put some additional work" is too high a barrier for rapid progress. c.f. the WebID folks.
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apparentlymart in order for that situation to arise, the producer needs to be of high enough value that the consumer is willing to chase the tail of the producer
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apparentlymart which is the situation for Facebook, Twitter.
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apparentlymart in this world really only the market leaders can be leaders
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apparentlymart and everyone else has to put up with what they get
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tantek edited /Main_Page (+307) "add photos, remove things no-one cared about at IndieWebCamp 2011 (will find another spot)" (view diff)
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apparentlymart which is probably really the case, but some of us have higher aspirations :)
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caseorganic uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp-2011-with-large-aaronpk.png]]""
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caseorganic created /Classof2011 (+794) "Created page with '[[http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5871635426/ @aaronpk" target="_blank">Image:indie-web-camp-2011-with-large-aaronpk.png|center|600px|thumb|Indie Web Camp Class of 2011 by [http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5871635426/ @aaronpk]]] [[Image:flick…'" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Issues (+104) "undiscussed" (view diff)
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tantek created /Undiscussed-2011 (+225) "drafted" (view diff)
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tantek apparentlymart - I assert we're not going to reach those higher aspirations without first being practical today, for ourselves.
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apparentlymart totally agreed
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tantek until then such "higher aspirations" are a distraction
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apparentlymart I build tightly coupled solutions in order to learn how to generalize
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+33) (view diff)
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tantek and that's the problem I have with most dialogs in this larger "space" of identity/federation etc.
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tantek right
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tantek practical simple one-off solutions today are what teach us how to generalize
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tantek building that is
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tantek not writing on white-boards and email-lists
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tantek ahem
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dbounds1 So basically just build an integration in your (micro)blog to syndicate out to Twitter and Facebook and we're all set?
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tantek you're never "all set"
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tantek "it's like fashion"
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk official group photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5881894938/in/pool-1674979@N25/
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tantek thanks aaronpk - nice job with the photoshop :)
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brennannovak oh wow, nice!
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tantek dbounds1 - it's a matter of prioritization. Interacting with friends matters more than federation. Thus that must shape the prioritization for indie web efforts.
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tantek human-centric design rather than architectural-principle-centric design
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brennannovak word!
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apparentlymart of course the beauty of indie web is that each individual can decide what to prioritize :)
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tantek apparentlymart - precisely :)
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brennannovak w00t
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Loqi giggles
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tantek build for yourself the solution that you want, and share it
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DawnFoster do bots giggle?
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DawnFoster the bots are taking over the world
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voxpelli do you see companies being part of the indie web as well?
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apparentlymart if they want to host their own presence on the web then sure
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brennannovak voxpelli: in some peoples solutions- most certainly.
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apparentlymart although maybe I misread what you meant by "part of the indie web" :)
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brennannovak my platform, that is my prime objective at first
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tantek edited /Undiscussed-2011 (+24) "donations, tip-jars" (view diff)
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tantek I think apparentlymart has it right
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voxpelli apparentlymart: like someone wanting to help create a new platform
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tantek yes a company being "on the indieweb" would be self-hosting / owning its own content, just as an individual would
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voxpelli I'm thinking more like a Automattic kind of company - doing a Wordpress kind of thing
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apparentlymart I read "indie web" to mean "hosting your own stuff", so if you're providing a platform for others to host their own stuff then you're probably not doing that
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brennannovak ah I misunderstood, but, yes
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tantek Wordpress.org - a tool that folks can deploy on the indie web.
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apparentlymart but of course the definition of "hosting" will probably change over time
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tantek Wordpress.com - hosted content. not part of the indie web.
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voxpelli do you imagine a future where everyone hosts their own content?
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apparentlymart If I use Flickr to share my photos but the files themselves are actually stored on a server I own then that's a slightly different idea of hosting that I think still hits some of the indie web use-cases
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apparentlymart you own your own data but let a company present it for you
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voxpelli apparentlymart: that sounds like http://www.unhosted.org/
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apparentlymart That seems to be the vision behind camlistore
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dbounds1 S3 - hosted content. not part of the indie web?
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apparentlymart again, that's where we need to be liberal in how "hosted" is defined :)
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tantek dbounds1 - depends if you reveal the S3 URLs or not
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voxpelli if "hosted" means that someone else pays the server bill then that's a rather limited approach
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apparentlymart I mean, I don't have a server in my apartment hooked up to my DSL but I still think things on my rented server are hosted by me
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tantek if all your URLs to your images go through a domain mapping, then sure, use S3 on the backend
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tantek or any other "cloud" storage service
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apparentlymart I think it's more about owning your own presence
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tantek right
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apparentlymart regardless of the backend
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tantek it starts with your own URL
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dbounds1 agreed.
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tantek and then URLs to all your resources
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voxpelli yeah - that makes sense - but in that way WordPress.com would be indie web?
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tantek so that anyone browsing yourstuff sees URLs that you own and control
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tantek no you don't own or control wordpress.com <-- the URL
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apparentlymart if I point my own domain at a WordPress.com blog then that's better than my blog being at foo.wordpress.com
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tantek apparentlymart - yes, that's the very first step to getting on the indieweb
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tantek then you have to worry about persisting the permalink structure that *they* impose on you
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tantek once you move your content from wordpress.com to your own server etc.
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voxpelli tantek: I meant for those buying their own domains
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tantek same problem with tumblr.com domain mapping
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voxpelli the permalink poblem is solved as long as they provide an export - which I guess wordpress does
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tantek it's a step towards an indie web site yes
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tantek but you're still vulnerable to their failures
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dbounds1 In the case of Glow, you run/own the machine and the content resides in your own data store that's managed by you, but the hostname itself dbounds.glow.io is managed by a central entity.
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tantek and their TOS
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tantek etc.
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apparentlymart for a while I persisted the LiveJournal URL scheme on my blog after I moved it away from LiveJournal, but eventually I gave up and broke the links
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tantek their censorship
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apparentlymart so it's definitely trickier to start off with one platform and move to another
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apparentlymart or to self-hosted
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tantek apparentlymart - exactly - that's the problem with domain mapping to a hosting service
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tantek this should be in an FAQ
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tantek Is mapping your personal domain to wordpress.com or tumblr.com enough to be on the indie web?
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apparentlymart but the same issue -- to a lesser extent, perhaps -- applies if you run someone else's software on your own server
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tantek apparentlymart - similar but not same issue
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apparentlymart If I switch from Movable Type to WordPress it can be hard to preserve the links that Movable Type minted
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tantek with someone else's (presumably open source) software, you can *configure* the permalink URL design
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voxpelli any software not providing a good exporting mechanism looks you in
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tantek whereas with a hosted service you have *no choice*
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apparentlymart indeed
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tantek that's an important distinction
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voxpelli tantek: you can change permalinks if the provider allows you to
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voxpelli tantek: I guess eg http://www.drupalgardens.com/ allows that
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tantek voxpelli - no provider I know of does
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apparentlymart so it seems that hacking your own stuff -- even if it's just tweaking someone else's code -- is part of indie web as far as you're concerned
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tantek oh interesting - that's an exception then
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tantek good to know
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voxpelli Drupal Gardens also allows you to export your entire site - including the code and sql database
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tantek "hacking your own stuff " is the side-effect
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tantek own your presence as you said is the key
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tantek which means
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tantek your URL
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tantek your shortlink URL
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tantek your permalinks
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tantek and your content
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apparentlymart TypePad was actually designed to allow arbitrary URL structures, but that kinda fell by the wayside for product reasons
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tantek if any of those are compromised, then you're less "indie"
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voxpelli but - does this means that the indie web is mostly relevant in content heavy sites?
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apparentlymart The system actually supports redirecting arbitrary URLs to new places
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apparentlymart it's a shame it's not really exposed in the product :(
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tantek apparentlymart - yeah. :/
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tantek voxpelli - for practical purposes today, it appears to be
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tantek people like to post content
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apparentlymart I think I implicitly read "indie web" as "indie social web"
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voxpelli that's actually pretty interesting
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apparentlymart and for me the social web is primarily about content
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apparentlymart (where content is defined in the loosest possible sense)
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tantek apparentlymart - one aspect of dropping "social" from the naming is that interesting projects got conceived (and partially built!) like the Federated Wiki
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voxpelli because my conclusion form the federated social web conference earlier this year in berlin was that URL:s was barely ever mentioned there
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tantek if you're not mentioning URLs then you're not on the web :)
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dbounds1 I've noticed recently that some photo sharing services like PicPlz have enabled for auto-syncing of content to your DropBox or S3 account. If a service like that allowed for you to also customize with your own domain name with trickle down into permalinks and shortened URLs, that seems like it would be satisfactory.
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lmorchard I had a notion to throw together a lightning talk along the lines of "DNS as homeownership on the web" - talk about controlling your URL space and services like github, tumblr, and posterous who can respond to CNAMEs from your own domain
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tantek oh and what got built out of the FSW Conf in Berlin? nothing.
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lmorchard waves, also.
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voxpelli So while the indie web as you describe it is very URL and content orientated - the federated social web as described during that conference is more activity oriented and therefor less URL oriented
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tantek lmorchard - sorry to miss you this weekend.
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tantek if it doesn't have a URL, it's not on the web
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lmorchard Yeah, I wanted to make it, but we had team building to do
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tantek voxpelli - it sounds like from what you're describing that the FSW conf was more about a Federated Social Internet - not Web
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lmorchard but at least we have IRC
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tantek which is sad to hear
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tantek because it means the FSW crowd is even more off the rails now than I thought :(
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apparentlymart "activities" are interesting because they are more like "reciepts" for content rather than content in their own right
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apparentlymart at least in some systems
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voxpelli tantek: one could also say that it's not about documents but rather about document fragments
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voxpelli tantek: but parts of it certainly wasn't related to the web - I agree
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apparentlymart Lots of systems don't give an activity its own permalink, for example
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tantek apparentlymart - I think in practice systems *do* give activities permalinks just not always expose them in the site UI
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apparentlymart I tend to think of an activity as being a unit of communication *about* objects that have URLs
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tantek we've seen this when things "magically" get permalinks - even activities from the past - when there's a UI rev
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apparentlymart So Facebook can present an activity that says I posted something on my blog
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brennannovak tantek: is there an open codebase for Whistle or just a spec? I don't see it on your github or a link on your wiki
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apparentlymart The activity is the bridge between the content on my blog and its manifestation on Facebook
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tantek brennanovak - Whistle is fully implemented in CASSIS.js
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apparentlymart although it's muddy on Facebook since once they have an activity they capture all of the interactions on it and don't feed them back to the source
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tantek and I think I have like 5-6 lines of PHP that do a redirect
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apparentlymart unless you do some extra work
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tantek plus a line or two of .htaccess
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tantek I need to package those up somehow
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brennannovak I see
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brennannovak so it's not storing short url's in a database
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tantek apparentlymart - yes the Facebook example demonstrates why/how activities are nouns themselves.
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brennannovak since it's algorithmic...
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tantek basically, anything written is posted, and can be commented or liked
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tantek brennannovak - exactly - no database
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brennannovak interesting
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tantek No database, no database tax.
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tantek and much less URL fragility
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tantek btw - domain mapping to a hosted provider still has all the problems mentioned here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Why except for identity (since using your domain usually obscures your username on the hosting service)
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aaronpk initial version of IRC logs. not pretty, but can permalink to specific lines http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-28#t1309282911
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voxpelli tantek: some of those things could be solved by backups mechanisms - other issues are also present in opensource software or other software built or controlled by others. Also - some issues are inherent to hosting. Right+
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tantek edited /Main_Page (-29) "discussions - contribute. discuss on IRC, capture on the wiki." (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli - no, backup mechanisms DO NOT solve those issues because you lose your URLs.
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brennannovak should other Indie Web projects (that were not at the camp) be posted on the projects page?
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voxpelli tantek: assuming you don't own your own domain
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tantek brennannovak - yes
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tantek the Projects page pre-dates the camp
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brennannovak even people who are not active per se?
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tantek brennannovak - feel free to capture inactive projects as well in an Inactive section
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tantek better to document them appropriately than have people waste time
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brennannovak good thinking
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tantek if the list gets too long we can move to Projects-Inactive
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tantek voxpelli - backups still don't solve it even if you own your own domain. when tumblr.com was down, your stuff didn't get served. didn't matter if you had it backed up.
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tantek links broke
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brennannovak does anyone else still get the following error when logging into the wiki? "Warning: array_key_exists() expects parameter 2 to be array, null given in /web/sites/mediawiki/extensions/OpenID/SpecialOpenIDLogin.body.php on line 519"
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voxpelli tantek: that's due to the dns not redirecting properly then
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tantek redirecting to what?
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tantek backups are insufficient
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tantek you're just making stuff up
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tantek if you have a solution, describe it
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tantek "backups" is not a solution
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tantek and doesn't "solve" anything
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voxpelli tantek: if my self-hosted site goes down - then I will have the exact same problems restoring a backup as I would have restoring it from a hosted system - right?
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tantek brennannovak - could you capture that error with a screenshot perhaps? someone could then add it to: http://indiewebcamp.com/Issues
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tantek voxpelli - not same problem no
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voxpelli tantek: what would the difference be?
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aaronpk brennannovak: also note what openid provider your'e using
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tantek if you have a self-hosted site, you've already figured out and done the setup
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tantek hosted site goes down. you have to go figure out and *build* your system.
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tantek which is non-trivial
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tantek because that's what we're all trying to do now!
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voxpelli that assumes that there's no standard format of the export
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tantek build indie web sites :)
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voxpelli if the export is a rss feed or a hAtom document then you could import it into anything and it would work
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tantek no solutions restore your permalinks
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tantek if you have a specific scenario you think works, state it
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tantek e.g. export from service A, install software B, import
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tantek otherwise no
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tantek experience has shown that "backup" is insufficient
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tantek at a minimum, you lose your permalinks
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voxpelli permalinks are stored in the exort - I owm my domain - I could restore the permalinks through something as simple as a .htaccess?
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tantek if you're saying "simple" and ".htaccess" in the same sentence then either you don't understand the full extent of the problem, or you're assuming far too much special technical knowledge on the part of people who want indie web sites.
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tantek and this is from someone who *does* edit his own .htaccess (it's not simple)
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tantek so no - you just keep asking questions rather than actually describing a solution
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tantek if you have a solution, I suggest you blog it
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tantek and then those that are interested in it can try it and report issues
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voxpelli I'm asking questions to better understand the issue you're trying to solve - I can't solve an issue I don't understand clearly ;)
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tantek having your stuff go offline
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tantek it's that simple
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tantek every question you ask is you figuring out how to solve that problem
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tantek any "solution" that doesn't just transparently reserve everything at the same URLs is not a solution
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tantek what is not clear about that?
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tantek what's your personal site voxpelli?
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voxpelli tantek: english is http://kodfabrik.se/ - blog is http://voxpelli.se/
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tantek nice
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tantek OAuth was *definitely* discussed a lot at Indie Web Camp
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voxpelli cool - but doesn't OAuth often need API:s and thus XML/JSON and WebFingery stuff?
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tantek apparently not for the uses discussed
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tantek so no
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voxpelli Nice - great to hear it was discussed
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voxpelli So - regarding my questions - sounds like it would be possible to build hosted indie web solutions
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brennannovak OAuth 1.0 sucks... 2.0 is much better... that was (re)discovered from messig with the Flickr API
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brennannovak s/messig/messing
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voxpelli brennannovak: you mean that OAuth 2 Bearer Tokens are easier to handle?
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tantek voxpelli re: "sounds like it would be possible to build hosted indie web solutions" - maybe - if that's something you're interested in you should pursue it! and please share the designs you come up with - others may want to contribute as well.
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brennannovak voxpelli: easier in many ways, but yes, the bearer tokens are part of it
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brennannovak voxpelli: what is your lang / stack of choice?
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voxpelli tantek: yeah - I'm just thinking that it would probably be easier to gain leverage from hosted solutions
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tantek dunno - seems like a harder problem to solve
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voxpelli brennannovak: for OAuth I'm currently struggling with maintaining the Drupal OAuth module - a client and provider
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tantek perhaps why everyone at Indie Web Camp was pursuing their own server hosted solutions
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voxpelli tantek: harder at large perhaps - but easier for eg. my mother to use
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tantek when you're hand-waving, everything is easier
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tantek go build it and find out
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lmorchard fwiw, I'd say domain mapping to a hosted service is a nice gateway drug to being more indie
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lmorchard especially if the service lets you control URL space. That's somewhat rare, though.
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tantek lmorchard there was one service that allowed it mentioned above
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lmorchard but for example, using jekyll hosted on github is pretty easy to transition to S3
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tantek something drupal something
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apparentlymart in principle it's possible to keep permalinks between systems, but in practice most systems are not designed to do that
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lmorchard Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, it's possible... so if you want to use a hosted service, shop wisely
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apparentlymart and in some cases it's more of a product decision than a technical limitation that makes this happen
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lmorchard just thinking in terms of cheap/free on-ramps to indie-ness
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voxpelli tantek: I'll try to build when I find time
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apparentlymart Already having your stuff domain mapped definitely smooths the move to indie
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voxpelli One last question: Did you discuss realtimeness during the camp?
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apparentlymart Having my blog on LiveJournal domain mapped made preserving my permalinks difficult rather than impossible
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apparentlymart but it was still too complex for me to maintain in the long term
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apparentlymart (I was using the moral equivalent of .htaccess and mod_rewrite, basically)
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apparentlymart at least moving from hosted to indie with a mapped domain is easier than moving from hosted to hosted
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apparentlymart or indeed from indie to hosted :)
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tantek apparentlymart - have you blogged about the challenge of maintaining your permalinks? this sounds particularly relevant to the indie web.
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tantek voxpelli - yes we discussed using Activity Streams + PuSH for realtime interactions
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apparentlymart tantek, it was a while ago... I don't remember if I ever did write about it. Maybe I should.
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voxpelli tantek: cool - sounds nice
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voxpelli tantek: so essentially - the only parts of the ostatus stack you didn't discuss was webfinger and salmon?
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tantek no we discussed salmon but how no one's actually got it working
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tantek well cliqset supposedly did but then died?
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tantek actually there was much salmon mockery
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tantek anyone that wasn't a protocol nerd was pretty dismissive of the model and the nomenclature e.g. "slaps"
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tantek but people did groan-worthy appreciate the salmon = sending comments back "up stream" to the original source of the post.
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apparentlymart I like the idea of salmon but the protocol itself seems to be disproportionately complicated for what it does
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tantek the conclusion was that given that Salmon has been discussed for ~2 years and people still don't have it working, perhaps there's an opportunity for people to build a solution that's simpler and abstract a simpler protocol.
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tantek apparentlymart - strongly agreed
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tantek this gets back to a good quote from daveman692
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tantek products before protocols
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apparentlymart I specced out a foundational piece that could be used as a foundation for a simpler salmon, here: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/dfp
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tantek (as in build)
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tantek ooh
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tantek reads
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apparentlymart but I've not really been talking about it too much yet because I've not had time to actually implement it fully
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voxpelli I think ~2 years is a short time in the open source world
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apparentlymart I have an almost-complete implementation but I can't really present it to the world in good concience without implementing it first
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voxpelli Try get something radical done in the Drupal community - will take longer than 2 years probably to get a well established solution
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apparentlymart tantek, to be clear, that spec really just provides for the "authentication" bit to remove the cryptographic signatures from salmon. It doesn't actually address salmon use-cases directly itself.
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tantek oh ok
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apparentlymart I figured the new salmon-like thing on top of it would be pretty obvious given that foundation, so I've not bothered to write it down yet
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tantek voxpelli - 2 years is too long
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tantek for *today's* simple formats world
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apparentlymart fundamentally salmon is just a POST to a URL with some authentication mechanism
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tantek both XFN and microformats got implementations within weeks or months
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apparentlymart the authentication mechanism is the hard part
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voxpelli tantek: I agree - but it might be due to heavy systems like Drupal being to complicated rather than the formats :/
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apparentlymart the challenge with server-to-server federation technologies is they're pretty hard to develop since your dev environment ends up needing to be on the public web
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apparentlymart which is not the common case due to NAT
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voxpelli tantek: Drupal still hasn't got good microformats support even though Chris Messina advocated for it many many years ago
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apparentlymart and people's desire to do work on their personal computers rather than on servers
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apparentlymart (running off to a meeting for a bit. back later.)
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voxpelli tantek: really - Drupal got _no_ microformats support
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voxpelli apparentlymart: you can work with virtual machines and multiple local sites?
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tantek voxpelli - Drupal microformats support: http://microformats.org/wiki/drupal
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tantek feel free to ask further about that in #microformats
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voxpelli apparentlymart: at the federated social web conference in berlin they handed out usb drives to everyone with virtual machines containing statusnet etc
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tantek and how many of those people went on to put their statusnet instance on the web?
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voxpelli tantek: (it references a five year old issue - which was my point)
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (-1) (view diff)
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abki__ héllo
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/secos] Post Once, Syndicate Everywhere #pose #indieweb <- I like this idea... and the irony of it's acronym.
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abki__ anyone nose where are the notes from the last barcamp/devcamp that is mention on activity stream mailling list ?
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tantek abki__: http://indiewebcamp.com/
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caseorganic http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-28
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abki__ tantek, thx
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abki__ caseorganic, ?
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caseorganic aaronpk
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caseorganic easy to browse http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-27
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tantek aaronpk - very nice!
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aaronpk i'll work on adding links to those pages onto the wiki
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+92) (view diff)
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abki__ are you related to diaspora ?
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brennannovak abki__: related by the fact we believe in many of the same goals
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apparentlymart voxpelli, yeah, it gets easier once there is at least one implementation you can run locally
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/pkbot] Posted a photo: IndieWebCamp 2011 http://aaron.pk/2ZM [Flickr]
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abki__ let me dive in then
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abki__ cause I don't know this goals
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abki__ because*
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abki__ you think about opensource and distributed communication ?
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tantek yes
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abki__ I wanted to create a social network so I came getting a gimplse of what is already being made
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abki__ social network = software...
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abki__ actually a social network distribution but all on the same stack of tools (not like gnome which has several framework / tools you can build in even if most share GTK GNU/TOOLS ;)
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abki__ the aim of GNOME is to build the best desktop experience whatever the language you write the program in... it's an hard choice IMO
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abki__ they are praising diversity
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abki__ that's a choice
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abki__ such application could be long to build in the web, but I know big compagny already do it, but they have the money language it's easier for them
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abki__ glimpse ?
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tantek we're not building social networks
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tantek the web is a social network
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tantek if you want to join it, setup/build/maintain your own indie web site
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tantek aaronpk, perhaps we could put an index to logs here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/
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abki__ you don't get my point
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tantek or rather, here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc
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abki__ tantek, do you like wordpress application ?
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tantek aaronpk, so basically, is there a way to turn off the redirect from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc to irc/ ?
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tantek abki__ I think wordpress is cool and there are some folks using it to make their indie web sites.
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abki__ I didn't know they were indie applications :)
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abki__ once the name...
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abki__ x)
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tantek abki__ there's a lot on that on http://indiewebcamp.com/ - consider reading through the pages
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tantek like: http://indiewebcamp.com/Why
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abki__ thanks
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abki__ tantek,
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abki__ is that happening « You've been disappeared from a hosting service, or suffered from involuntary identity re-assignment (perhaps due to trademark claims or other intimidation). »
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abki__ can they take all your stuff from your own application ?
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abki__ I mistunderstand the claim above
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tantek abki__ they can on hosted sites yes. and have.
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tantek numerous stories about it over the years.
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tantek hence the links.
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abki__ you mean this « sharecropping and site death » ?
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abki__ I'm here http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/2010-199-tantek-fsws-talk#sharecropping_and_site_death
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abki__ I see written : "don't sell you app it will be killed" in your talk tantek
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tantek abki__ that's what the data demonstrates in practice
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tantek most sites that are bought end up dead or at a minimum very neglected.
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abki__ like delicious...
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abki__ I week of delicious and I wanted to change it, yet it was the most popular bookmark repository (among technical people too)
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caseorganic The web is a database
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caseorganic People have placed their information there already
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caseorganic creating another social network is not effective or useful. it is redundant
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abki__ that said you try to make it inter-operable
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abki__ I see your point
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caseorganic allowing one to centralize their information and use that when interacting with the web reduces time, effort and reduncancy.
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abki__ true
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abki__ I like the idea of wordpress like solution, not everybody can run any car...
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abki__ same thing applies for the rest of the web.
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abki__ Indie is ok but see that application like drupal that let you build communities like znet are also immensly useful
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abki__ my point just like there are distros they will be social apps. Anybody can build from strach linux, does anybody do it ? no. It's the same for social presence in the web
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caseorganic what kind of communities need to be built that aren't supported by the current web structure?
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caseorganic there's irc, there's quora, facebook, delicious
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abki__ not every one want to use these apps the way they are today once numerous apps in the web (that don't always communicate) once indy software ?
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abki__ the thing you do with DiSo is reinventing the internet for me
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abki__ a community of people that share the same need in term of social presence and possibilities of way of expression on the web
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abki__ some people can't build they own application it should be easy to let anybody express itself in this language
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abki__ new tool
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Loqi [http://twitter.com/abki_] insightful http://indiewebcamp.com/Why (via http://activitystrea.ms/ mailling list)
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abki__ so living
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+0) (view diff)
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (+24) (view diff)
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caseorganic edited /Main_Page (-1) (view diff)
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crystalbeasley created /One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site (+1050) "Created page with 'Wordpress's famous five-minute install is the bar for how easy it should be to get your own instance of a personal indie website. Our job is to make it at least that simple or we…'" (view diff)
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abki__ how can answer ?
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abki__ how can I answer?
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caseorganic http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain
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abki__ don't make me jump !
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abki__ there is all this gondor.io stuff
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abki__ I'm testing it right now it rather easy to use even for no body, GUI would be good (like oggdrop ;)
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abki__ and cons side
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tantek edited /Schedule (+229) "demos went til 6:30, then community cleanup." (view diff)
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abki__ it's service stack on top of open tools (like appengine), and it doesn't support wsgi
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abki__ http://indiewebcamp.com/Contribute
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abki__ you are kidding right ?
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tantek no
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abki__ joke I just read this http://www.quora.com/What-websites-have-the-best-new-user-onboarding-flows ;)
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tantek you must be this (raises hand) indie to participate
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aaronpk uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp-2011.jpg]]""
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aaronpk edited /Main_Page (+1) "replaced photo on home page with the real version" (view diff)
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abki__ hyper-move my mind
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aaronpk edited /Classof2011 (+1) "replaced photo" (view diff)
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tantek created /IRC (+6857) "drafted from http://microformats.org/wiki/irc (viva la public domain!)" (view diff)
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abki__ is there somewhere the algorithm behind Whistle ?
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aaronpk edited /IRC (+131) "linked my name and linked Loqi to his page on my site" (view diff)
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tantek tantek.com/w/Whistle has the algorithm
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tantek created /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+200) "drafted with poetic license text from https://github.com/veganstraightedge/microformats2 and reference to CC0." (view diff)
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abki__ base 58 is reversible ?
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tantek edited /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+6) "wiki markup" (view diff)
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tantek which base 58? URL?
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tantek and NewBase60 is absolutely reversible
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tantek with open source code to do so (across various languages)
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tantek aaronpk we should put the CC0 license in the edit page template too
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crystalbeasley edited /Main_Page (+41) (view diff)
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abki__ « plenty overengineered for any human lifetime. »
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abki__ context « Why 3 sexagesimal digits to represent the date? It turns out that 3 sexagesimal digits are capable of representing over 500 years of days - plenty overengineered for any human lifetime. »
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abki__ http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743973/Whistle#whyanalgorithmicURLshortener
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tantek basically replace "under the Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 Unported" in the edit template PHP with "to the public domain according to CC0 ( http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ )
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tantek that's right abki__
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abki__ you don't believe in psychohistory ?
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aaronpk tantek: ok
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tantek abki__ URL?
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tantek Whistle is for the indie web. activities by one person for their website.
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tantek activities, not history.
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abki__ psychohistory has nothing to do with history or almost
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abki__ it's fictional science that predicts future
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tantek edited /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+2) "fmt" (view diff)
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abki__ Psychohistory 've put the wikipedia page in my reading list
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tantek predictions != activities
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abki__ that's not what science says
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tantek actually it is
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tantek activities in science would be measuring real world phenonmena
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tantek predictions are hypothesis formed by those observations
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abki__ of course
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tantek so no
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abki__ you eat chaos theory here
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tantek plus again, we're talking indie web. one person. one web site.
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tantek no thanks, I'm cutting back.
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tantek you could post things to the future of your presumed life if you wanted to.
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abki__ ActiveStream is for sharing this activities I though
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tantek yes
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tantek activitystreams that is
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tantek not ActiveStream - never heard of that
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abki__ ActivityStreams I meaned
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aaronpk subtle color coding on irc logs to distinguish between joins/messages/bots http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-27
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abki__ machine learning says we can predict the future
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abki__ at lest we can predict the future outcome of an even for instance "you will like that" it's far fetchedd
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abki__ but nothing stop people from one day discovering rules in human choices
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abki__ whatever you may not be interrested in this
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tantek abki__ - not sure what any of that has to do with indieweb
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abki__ yep
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tantek you might want to check out a machine learning channel instead
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abki__ thanks for the idea
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tantek like the semantic web interest group: #swig
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abki__ web apps that does semantic thing or machine learning stuff...
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tantek yes - go ahead and note your questions / observations about machine learning stuff in that channel
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tantek created /Template:irc_user (+85) "drafted from http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:irc_user" (view diff)
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tantek created /IRC-people (+182) "drafted inspired by http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people" (view diff)
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tantek copying these pages from the microformats wiki and forking/tweaking makes me *really* want the Federated Wiki already.
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tantek ok folks we flipped the switches (should've done earlier) for Indiewebcamp.com contributions from the MediaWiki default CC-BY-SA-ND 3.0 unported to Public Domain CC0 (was always our intent)
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tantek if any wiki contributors here have any objections, please speak up and we can excise your content from the wiki accordingly.
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hober fine by me
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aaronpk tantek: any objections to renaming [[IRC-people]] to [[IRC People]]?
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tantek no go ahead
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aaronpk moved /IRC-people to /IRC_People "naming conventions"
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tantek aaronpk - if you'd like, perhaps you could write up some naming conventions you suggest for IndieWebCamp.com.
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aaronpk edited /IRC_People (+94) "added amber and aaron" (view diff)
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tantek edited /Guest_List (+0) "missed briansuda" (view diff)
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aaronpk created /Help:Editing (+940) "basic wiki editing help" (view diff)
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tantek I've added all the speakers I could find from the Schedule page to Lanyrd: http://lanyrd.com/2011/indie-web-camp/
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aaronpk wow, nice
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tantek if you spoke, please be sure to add yourself if you're not already there.
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tantek since OSBridge 2012 was already announced 6/26-6/29, shall we tentatively reserve the weekend after for IndieWebCamp in the same way?
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tantek cc: aaronpk caseorganic skinnywhitegirl
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aaronpk let's do it
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tantek right then. how do we properly archive current content (without making it too hard to find) and setup a sign-up page etc. for 2012?
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aaronpk move all necessary pages to have a suffix of "2011"?
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tantek or to start them with "2011/" ?
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tantek and then we could put the 2012 pages at "2012/" etc.
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tantek is tending to prefer year first for organizing URLs etc.
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aaronpk that'd work. the wiki doesn't really have a concept of folders, so the page title would be "2011/Guest List"
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aaronpk the URLs would look good and the page titles won't look too weird
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aaronpk also I'll put them into a "2011" category
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tantek right - except that mediawiki sometimes makes nav links for the intermediate segments
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tantek right - the end of the page title will still be the human readable name of the page
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tantek we could keep /Schedule etc. as redirects to the 2011/ pages until we got closer to 2012
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tantek e.g. until 2011-12-31
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tantek hey shaners I borrowed some of your github
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shaners cool. what was?
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shaners tantek ^^^
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCamp:Copyrights
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shaners love it!
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aaronpk tantek: URLs just for you ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-179
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tantek edited /Main_Page (+329) "2012: Scheduled for: June 30 - July 1st, 2012, and a few steps forward" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - sweetness!!
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tantek ordinal ISO dates FTW!
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shaners roll my eyes ;)