#indiewebcamp 2012-08-28

2012-08-28 UTC
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@indiewebcamp Less than 2 weeks to the first ever @IndieWebCampUK in Brighton 9/9: http://t.co/odyrliOK via @t (ttk.me t4Ke1) #indieweb
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@indiewebcamp @mxuribe @titanous *camp comes from @barcamp. Tent.io has a good #indieweb pitch
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@indiewebcamp @mxuribe @titanous yet tent.io reinvents existing openly developed+implemented protocols. Like tent.io pitch? get http://t.co/n02fQePa today
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tantek aaronpk - I know you said you were working on a different post for marking up dates for blog posts - but do you mind changing the <abbr> markup in your post? The primary problem is that that use, with title="2012-08-12T09:00:00-0700", is a known accessibility/usability problem.
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tantek and we've been working hard in #microformats to steer folks away from that use of abbr (out of date wiki pages not withstanding :( )
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tantek as your post has been quite well referenced / debated (e.g. on HackerNews), I'm worried even leaving that markup snippet there may lead to it being copy/pasted by others
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tantek (in http://aaronparecki.com/2012/236/article/1/you-should-not-be-displaying-relative-dates )
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@andybudd Believe we should be in charge of our own data? Come to IndieWebCamp this Sep in Brighton, arranged by @t - http://t.co/CjImdUCn
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@mxuribe @indiewebcamp I hear ya! Thx!
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Alex_Lykos hello
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Alex_Lykos i found this chat in a google search, and i'm curious, what is indie web camp?
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@indiewebcamp “@adactio: Publishing words on my own blog about publishing words on my own blog. http://t.co/js2ETLxx”. See you @IndieWebCampUK 2012-09-09!
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@indiewebcamp “@andybudd: Believe we should be in charge of our own data? IndieWebCamp in Brighton 9/9, arranged by @t” & @adactio! http://t.co/lw3JBgzi
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tantek.com edited /2012/UK/Guest_List (-3) "update count/remaining, sort participants by full name" (view diff)
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tantek Hi Alex_Lykos, IndieWebCamp is probably best described by the summary at the top of http://indiewebcamp.com
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tantek feel free to ask any questions about it!
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Alex_Lykos oh, i see, so it basically is a collaboration of web developers who have the desire to own their own content?
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Alex_Lykos i'm a photographer and aspiring writer, so i can see where you're coming from
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tantek Alex_Lykos, Yes. Web developers, designers, UX/visual etc.
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tantek do you have your own site?
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Alex_Lykos i can't afford a domain, but i run a site at gfnet.webs.com
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Alex_Lykos however, most of my photography is kept on imgur, photobucket, or another site
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Alex_Lykos please excuse the ugliness of the design, i have been neglecting my website for years
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Alex_Lykos been running it since 2005
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tantek one of our goals is to develop open source solutions that make it easier and cheaper to do so (own your own domain, hosting, etc.)
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tantek no problem at all - it is good that you're doing it somewhere at all! and then just keep incrementally improving it :)
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tantek all of us have stuff on our own sites that we know needs improvement
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tantek but that's ok, because we're all in it together, developing in the open, encouraging each other
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tantek where are you based?
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Alex_Lykos i'm in no way an excellent web designer, haha. in fact most of my site i got designed by a guy free, and i've just been altering the design over the years
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Alex_Lykos i have a reasonable amount of knowledge in Photoshop, and took a high school class on HTML
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tantek either way, great to have you here, and hope we can help.
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Alex_Lykos it's funny, cause i live just outside of one of the technical hubs of the world: Boston @_@
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tantek we do have some folks in that area too
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tantek hope to do an IndieWebCamp in Boston, maybe sometime next year
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Alex_Lykos hope we get a cold winter this year, last year was so miserable
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Alex_Lykos we got like....a total of 6 inches of snow :/
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tantek if you're ever out here on the west coast, consider coming to IndieWebCamp 2013: indiewebcamp.com/2013
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Alex_Lykos as a poor college student, doubt that will happen in the next 5 years xD
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Alex_Lykos especially Cali, oh god the heat @_@
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tantek Portland is pretty nice in the summer
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erinjorichey.com edited /2012/UK/Guest_List (+316) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: I'm updating the post, what is the simplest value-class-pattern date?
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aaronpk Can I do <span class="dtstart"><span class="value" title="2012-08-12T09:00:00-0700">12 hours ago</span></span> or can I do something with just one element?
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tantek do you have a preference as to the text display of the absolute date and time?
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aaronpk in this example, yes
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tantek are you trying to demonstrate the problem with only displaying the "… ago" text?
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aaronpk I'm just trying to replace the example on my post
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tantek re-reads the context
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tantek a-ha: "If you insist on using relative dates, at least mark it up with the…"
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tantek got it
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tantek so what you want is the time element for just this one
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aaronpk so I'm giving two examples, one with the <time> element and one with <span>s
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tantek e.g. <time class="dt-published published" datetime="2012-08-12 09:00:00-0700">12 hours ago</time>
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tantek since it's in hAtom
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tantek dtstart is for hCalendar :)
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aaronpk so for the non-<time> version, it would be <span class="published"><span class="value" title="2012-08-12T09:00:00-0700">12 hours ago</span></span>
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tantek the equivalent without <time>, with only <span>, uses the microformats value-class-pattern:
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tantek almost
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tantek you don't want such an unlistenable tooltip showing up on the span
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tantek so to do that, the key is to use the value class pattern value-title
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data
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tantek e.g. in your example
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tantek <span class="dt-published published"><span class="value-title" title="2012-08-12T09:00:00-0700"> </span>12 hours ago</span>
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tantek the element with class="value-title" MUST be the first child of the element you're using for the microformats property, and in order for the tooltip to not display / be spoken, you must put only a plain space " " in that first child span. The plain space *is* required for maximum robustness with various markup transformation systems/services, e.g. Tidy, some CMSs etc.
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tantek make sense?
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aaronpk a little bizarre, but yea
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tantek took a lot of iterating / testing by BenWard and myself to figure all that out as far as what would work in actual implementation/production/user situations
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tantek any suggestions for how to improve the documentation would be appreciated, as always
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tantek I included both the hAtom microformats and h-entry microformats2 property class names to help start encouraging people in the microformats2 direction
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tantek presumably you don't mind one extra class name like that
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tantek to ensure better forward compat
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tantek future-friendliness and all
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aaronpk well I tend to use docs as a reference rather than a tutorial, so organizing things by use case is helpful. i.e. having a section dedicated to displaying dates with microformats would be better than having information about dates scattered across a couple pages and sections
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tantek.com edited /2012/UK (+383) "/* Posts About */ add Jeremy's blog post and Brighton Digital Festival listing" (view diff)
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aaronpk I didn't notice the date example in "#using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data" until you linked me to it, because I assumed the "#Date_and_time_values" had all the info I needed
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tantek aaronpk - ah, you're wanting grouping by use-case, rather than grouping by technology/technique
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tantek that makes sense
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tantek or perhaps grouping by use-cases first, and then in later sections, the individual technologies can be described in more precise detail (e.g. for parsers)
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aaronpk ah yes, there's definitely a difference in how you'd want to read it for content creators vs parsers
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Alex_Lykos i have an apple!
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aaronpk tantek: how's this look now? http://aaronparecki.com/2012/236/article/1/you-should-not-be-displaying-relative-dates#relative-dates-aren-t-machine-readable
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tantek reads
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tantek looks good with only 2 minor nits
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tantek 1. use class="dt-published published" instead of "published dt-published" - putting the prefixed version of the classname first helps identify both of them as microformats class names.
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tantek 2. the <time> element example still has only class="published" - that should be class="dt-published published"
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tantek oh and just caught one more reference
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tantek 3. in "What next?" replace the second bullet with a recommendation to use the <time> element, and if you can't use HTML5, then use value-class-pattern as you've documented.
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aaronpk ah great
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Alex_Lykos that apple was tasty
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tantek refreshes aaronpk's blog post
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aaronpk still trying to figure out how to get the code snippets to scroll horizontally when they are too wide. adding all those classes made the lines too wide :)
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tantek aaronpk - I typically wrap attribute underneath each other, e.g.
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tantek and put class first
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tantek since it's kind of a "subclass" of the element itself
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tantek e.g.
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tantek <time class="dt-published published"
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tantek datetime="2012-08-12T09:00-0700">
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tantek 12 hours ago
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tantek </time>
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tantek (lines up in a fixed-width font)
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aaronpk that avoids my css problem nicely
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aaronpk alright you can refresh now!
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tantek examples look great!
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tantek now just tweak the second/last bullet of your final section "What's next?" :)
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aaronpk right. there we go.
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tantek awesome!
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aaronpk thanks for the help!
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tantek np!
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barnabywalters Alex_Lykos: just seen previous discussion in the logs. Welcome!
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barnabywalters I have recently been in a similar situation regarding funds, so I totally get not buying web hosting
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@mxuribe Thanks so much for the mention! indiewebcamp http://t.co/kssrDeXY
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@mxuribe Thanks so much for the mention! indiewebcamp http://t.co/Qdw5Fxp4
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Alex_Lykos thank you barnaby
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Alex_Lykos speaking of funds, right now, i am actually about to go and pack my computer away for college
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Alex_Lykos so i'll see you in a few hours maybe
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barnabywalters PHP people: I'm pulling together some indieweb-related php classes as composer packages for easy installation and use.
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barnabywalters Any thoughts on vendor name?
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aaronpk could do "indieweb"?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: was thinking that, but packagist says use the library name apart from in certain circumstances
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barnabywalters it's all a bit vauge
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barnabywalters just wondering if anyone could spot long-term problems with using indieweb as the vendor name
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barnabywalters meh. "indieweb" is cleaner and reflects the github URI so I'll go for that
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barnabywalters it doesn't change how it's used in code anyway
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barnabywalters First indieweb composer package available here: http://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/push
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aaronpk nice!
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barnabywalters currently just has a publisher client in, please let me know/push any other PuSH classes there too
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barnabywalters the idea is to have a repo and package for things like PuSH, Salmon, etc
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barnabywalters with assorted different classes inside
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aaronpk ah, great idea
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barnabywalters all PSR-0 autoloadable and nice
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barnabywalters PHP can be a really pleasant language to work in if interfaces, namespaces and autoloading are used!
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aaronpk yea it's really not that bad
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barnabywalters I'l still wanting to diversify into node.js for realtime stuff and possible give ruby a go, but PHP is still my mainstay
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aaronpk ruby is nice because there's a lot of code available as gems
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yep, that's my main reason for wanting to give it a go
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aaronpk it also results in slightly cleaner looking code, but that alone isn't enough of a reason for me to use it
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barnabywalters not rails though. Too big and bulky for my taste and current work
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aaronpk yea rails is meh
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aaronpk nice for prototyping a site that has the kind of structure rails provides, but most sites don't follow that pattern especially personal sites
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barnabywalters as far as I can see, if you want to build a site that works in exactly the way rails works, it's great. otherwise, meh
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aaronpk yep
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barnabywalters woo hoo! Managed to move almost all of my dependencies to composer. So much cleaner.
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tantek barnabywalters - re: PHP code/classes - what kind of functionality did you code up that you want to share?
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tantek curious how much (if any) could be ported to being CASSIS (rather than classes)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters - what kind of PHP code/classes/functionality are you working on sharing? I'm curious how much (if any) could be redone/refactored as functional CASSIS (rather than classes). See http://cassisproject.com/ for more info on CASSIS.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next