#indiewebcamp 2012-10-23

2012-10-23 UTC
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tommorris https://rubygems.org/gems/rlinkextract
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tommorris I can't edit the wiki.
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tommorris !tell tantek I can't edit the wiki!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: tommorris left you a message 31 minutes ago: I can't edit the wiki!
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tantek tommorris - looking into it
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+42) "/* Where */ update venue to say Esri Portland" (view diff)
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@aaronpk Some thoughts about creating content on the #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/2012/296/article/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web
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aaronpk !tell tantek here is a post based on tonight's conversations! http://aaronparecki.com/2012/296/article/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 29 minutes ago: here is a post based on tonight's conversations! http://aaronparecki.com/2012/296/article/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web
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tantek reads
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@aaronpk Some fun discussions about today's @AWSCloud outage: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4684384 #indieweb #ownyourdata (http://aaronparecki.com/2012/296/note/1)
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tantek Nice article and summary of our discussion aaronpk!
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aaronpk thanks! Hopefully it will be useful for the FSW discusisons later this week!
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tantek yeah, we need to figure out a constructive way to deconstruct "activity streams" as they are currently framed
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tantek I'm liking the idea of leaning towards posts with just different sets of attributes
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tantek as a more incremental way forward
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tantek than the actor-verb-subject model
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tantek *rather than
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aaronpk yes, me too. It seems like most of the content I publish online will fit that new model
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tantek so I think maybe that was AS's mistake. they pushed a more complex (richer) model than was absolutely necessary for the folks who actively cared about implementing
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aaronpk "over-abstraction" as you called it
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tantek the AS model was based on what publishers appeared to be doing, but when said publishers showed little interest in implementing AS, it should have been scaled back. drastically scaled back.
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tantek I know that one of the "use cases" that drove the verb model was "liking" / "favoriting"
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tantek another one was for more passive activities like "listened to a music track"
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tantek perhaps those should have been pushed to a v2?
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tantek or is there way of at lease squeezing in likes/favorites into the posts model?
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tantek just as a checkin can be a textless note with venue information
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tantek how do you post a "favoriting" of a URL?
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aaronpk The way I would prefer to do that on my site is to have a completely separate feed of objects that I've "liked", "favorited", or "listened to" which is more like the bookmarks I currently publish at http://aaron.pk/bookmarks/
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tantek whereas I'd like to have the ability to have a composite feed of everything
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tantek on a single timeline
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aaronpk The major differentiator being content I've created vs consumed
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tantek "favoriting" is creating a single bit of content
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aaronpk "favoriting" is really just noting that you've consumed a particular piece of content and find it particularly interesting
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tantek and there's also "bookmarking" or especially "bookmarking with tags" (is that just "tagging" ?)
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tantek in my own anecdotal querying of users of what does "favoriting" or "liking" mean to them - they're not very consistent about it
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tantek except for - it means I clicked the icon
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tantek "favoriting" means I clicked the star icon
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aaronpk My inclination is to have a stream of things I've consumed, and I would tag each item with my action towards that item, "favoriting/liking" being things I like, "saving" for things I want to come back to, "bookmarking/collecting" for things I'm organizing into sets
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tantek "like" means I clicked the "thumbs up" or "heart" icon
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tantek some people think of it as "saving"
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tantek others think of it as giving props
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tantek since the action is public
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tantek and it increases a public number on/about the item
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aaronpk currently services don't make the distinction the way I want to express an action towards the item. So on Twitter I sometimes hit "favorite" for things I like and sometimes because I want to go back and read it again later
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tantek being liked/favorited
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tantek yeah - the meaning is inconsistent
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tantek so it devolves to just meaning "clicked the star"
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tantek I'm not even sure users mean the same thing when they favorite a tweet vs. favorite a flickr photo (even though both use a star)
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tantek Nor "liking" a FB post vs. an IG photo.
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tantek where both use the term "like" but the icons are different "thumb up" vs. "heart"
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tantek I think there was a study somewhere that showed people clicked heart icons more than star icons regardless of the verbage (favoriate or like)
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aaronpk I believe that
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aaronpk Regardless of the UI, I would like to mark content I've consumed into three different categories: favorite/like, save, bookmark. Bookmarks would have tags.
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aaronpk and that is based on the way I interact with current services, and the awkwardness/inaccuracies of the UIs and actions in them currently
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zztr1 what about 'read later'? is that 'save'? I find that the 'read later' check box on pinboard is very conducive to cleaning out my open browser tabs
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aaronpk "read later" and "save" are similar for me
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tantek yeah people differ on those
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zztr not for me. if i bookmark something without bothering to tag it that's essentially a 'save'. I can find it if i'm looking for it but i won't ever be reminded without remembering
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tantek I think the public/private uses are different too
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tantek I "save" plenty of URLs privately either as a "I read this" (personal logging) or as a "Read it later" or even as a "Reprocess this later and incorporate into a note/article/wiki page"
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tantek publicly I tweet about URLs with a bit of text that typically amounts to a set of tags
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tantek for me the "verbs" are quite different both between and among the public and private use cases
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tantek and that's *just* for "saving/bookmarking" URLs!
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tantek nevermind other content types
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tantek I do like aaronpk's distinction between creating and consuming
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tantek that dichotomy resonates a bit with me
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tantek active vs. passive
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tantek checks http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin to see if anyone else has contributed to it.
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aaronpk i'll add a link to my post
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aaronparecki.com edited /checkin (+160) "add link to my blog post about content types including checkins" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+115) "/* related blog posts */" (view diff)
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aaronpk I'm heading to bed, got an early start tomorrow!
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aaronpk goodnight everyone!
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Loqi night night
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zztr night aaronpk
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zztr tantek: did you see my response to your question? https://plus.google.com/104255768651498070358/posts/GEsaqFUZT9M
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tantek hmm - hadn't seen that
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tantek I don't have any expectation that IIW is good for getting any kind of "message across"
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tantek I think posting on your own site is a better way to "get the message across"
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zztr heh. if people read your site
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tantek last year at TPAC I actually had the opportunity to question reliance on DNS with Tim Berners-Lee at lunch - it was kind of an epically fun conversation. Kevin Marks was there too.
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tantek zztr - that's what syndication, in particular, POSSE, is for
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tantek for now "fixing DNS" is kind of a "too hard" problem
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tantek until you want to solve some *really* interesting peer-to-peer crypto/trust/discovery problems
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tantek which seems *possible* (i.e. not impossible), but certainly very hard
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tantek however, once done, has a lot of potential
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tantek I'm ok with letting other folks more into crypto/peer-to-peer try to solve that
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tantek for now I'm happy focusing on existing indieweb publishing/syndication problems
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zztr yeah. i see that it's "kind of a too hard problem" but i still want to talk about it. and from the perspective of augmenting, not replacing.
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tantek you'll definitely have no shortage of people wanting to "talk about it" at IIW
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tantek IIW is good for talking, not much for doing
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tantek which brings me to your next para
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tantek re: "I want to see a shift toward technologies of integration and storage as a means to data ownership." - I think the shortest path to that is you building and deploying and depending on it yourself.
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tantek DIY, IndieWeb, self-dogfood
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zztr i'm not a p2p advocate. i do think p2p is boxed too often as ideological, but it's not my drum to pound.
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zztr yup. i'm doing that
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tantek awesome
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zztr just finished crawling my bookmarks. just reaching alpha stability with my library for personal data management BaseParadigm
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tantek zztr - what's your personal URL?
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zztr http://traviswellman.com/ and http://spaciousness.org/
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tantek awesome
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tantek got a few rel=me in there
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tantek but why not all the links to your other profiles?
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tantek could use some hCard
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tantek (looking at the first URL)
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tantek is traviswellman.com a static single page? or are there other pages there? posts with permalinks?
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zztr i just don't spend a lot of time on it. certainly welcoming constructive criticism. not a lot of visitors either
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tantek btw I agree with: "That essentially means the entirety of the data has to be outside such services."
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tantek that's a key component of POSSE
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zztr tantek: glad you do. that's important and overlooked
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zztr i will look into POSSE
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zztr this is the first time i've heard of it
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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tantek you've found the right set of folks for this :)
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tantek *a* good set of folks at least
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zztr :)
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tantek I can't demonstrate uniqueness obviously, nor is it necessary to do so ;)
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zztr POSSE is more of a guideline than a protocol or spec huh?
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tantek regarding: "I don't see people talking about this enough. I want to find more people who are, or who will listen." - you found #indiewebcamp - welcome and hope to see you here more often!
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tantek POSSE is a methodology
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tantek the wiki calls it a syndication model
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tantek it was necessary to distinguish it from PESOS because people on the broader interwebs a) kept confusing the two, b) didn't understand how hugely different they were in terms of implications, data ownership, reliability, fragility, etc.
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zztr do you remember talking in Oregon at the camp about citation formats with Nicholas?
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tantek yes
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tantek I think I even have a citation for that
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zztr :) wasn't sure if the nick zztr represented me well
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2012/Academic_Citations_Web
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tantek a-ha!
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tantek is connecting instances of humans
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tantek did you see my follow-up to that session on the microformats wiki?
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zztr so effing cool you have twitter.com/t btw
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-brainstorming#web_citations
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tantek oh it's almost a historical accident that I have @t
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zztr about microformats. do you know of any thought/work towards canonicalization so that identical micro documents would hash the same?
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zztr in that's one of two problems on top of my mind right now. equality is difficult, but necessary for connecting/integrating a sharded graph
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zztr so if two people cite the same paper but write the microformat by hand, and a third party (say archive.org) crawls both sites among others and tries to link up references... i suppose having the same permalink in there would be mostly sufficient...
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zztr but possibly not for all microformats
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tantek I don't think equality is necessary for connecting/integrating a sharded graph
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tantek yes, URL equivalency is likely sufficient
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tantek but then again, we won't know until we get implementations parsing publishing examples, and won't get that until we have a simple enough spec to use
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zztr another q, do you know of any efforts to link specific functionality to specific microformats? like, a catalog of rest apis that are looked up by microformat?
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tantek there have been a few efforts started (or just proposed maybe?) for microformats for APIs
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tantek but I'm not sure there's been much followthru put into actually doing and documenting research
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tantek there's been tons of "wouldn't it be cool if" type questions/proposals for various microformats but nearly all of them lack actual follow through
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tantek which in my mind means they lack actual motivating use cases
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tantek and/or real world examples
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tantek still - people can document research on any of those they like
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tantek we can switch to #microformats for that
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zztr have you used the 'share' functionality of Android?
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tantek since we're kindof off the indieweb topics
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tantek I've watched people use the 'share' functionality
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tantek and been particularly confused when that's what you have to do to email something
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tantek have you seen my rants on share?
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zztr no maybe i should
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zztr anyway that's kind of what i'm getting at. you encounter a bit of data, and there are things you can do with it. the list of things is filtered based on the format
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tantek http://tantek.com/2012/152/b1/citation-ui-focus-enabling-design#share-all-things
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tantek the list of things should be based on use cases
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tantek and user research
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tantek not on the format
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tantek format driven UI is a terrible anti-pattern
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tantek and a really common developer-mistake
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zztr yeah you're right 'share' is over overloaded
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zztr the problem is that the developer has to include a button for it, and since it's so amorphous, it needs to just be one button. meaning, all content needs to be able to meet up with all consumers through that one 'share' mechanism
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tantek "problem is that the developer has to include a button for it" - sounds like the developer's problem
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tantek and misframed at that
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tantek rather than solving a *user's* problem
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zztr i'm glad it's there personally, but it would be better if the one button listed a range of actions, and each action could be implemented by different providers
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zztr well... the developer can't plan for the range of potentially installed software on a phone
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tantek personally I think it's a tough problem space that's been ill considered by current solutions
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tantek so maybe limited options is ok
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zztr so it has to be just a single 'do other stuff' kind of functionality
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tantek that's typically the case in user interfaces
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tantek limited and simpler is better (more usable) than extensible
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tantek but programmers always err on the side of extensible
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tantek and thus mistakenly create UIs accordingly
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zztr ooh. yes, simpler. yes, more usable. no, not better. highly frustrating in fact to me.
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zztr but yes i am a developer, and one who very much cares about being able to use all the data in all the ways
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tantek the other thing is that you don't need a giant list of actions every time
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tantek lots of stuff being needlessly reinvented by android - all the "intents" stuff
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tantek it's as if these people never heard of file types vs. applications
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tantek invented in the 80s I believe
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tantek do you get a giant list of applications everytime you double-click a new document on your system? no.
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tantek not even windows 3.1 had that dumb of a UI
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zztr hold on. yes you do. you have to associate a file type with an application to open it
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tantek no you don't
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tantek the system has defaults
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tantek that "just work" 99% of the time
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zztr yes
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tantek ironic that android etc. are a *regression* in that regard
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tantek like I said, it's as if the developers ignored all previous related work
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tantek they thought there were inventing something new, but they weren't, and instead they just invented a suckier version of existing technology
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zztr i hear ya. it's not good enough.
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zztr do you think file extensions with default application associations is an ideal solution?
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tantek ideal? who care about ideal? how about, best so far?
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tantek Mac file types and app types are a decent solution
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zztr well i ask because it's not good enough for me, so i wonder what you think would be better
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tantek and don't depend on extensions
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tantek file extensions are a distant second
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tantek "intents" crap is somewhere off in the weeds
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tantek I did do some work on improving on the simple Mac type/creator model back in the 1990s
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tantek when I was working on OpenDoc
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zztr i don't know if you want to be this far into this conversation in this channel this early on a tuesday ... but my thinking leads me in the direction that there are three things to worry about. 1) establishing the type of data 2) establishing what can be done with a type of data and 3) managing implementations of those actions
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tantek I think they're orthogonal
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tantek but that's much more a #microformats type conversation
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zztr yeah
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zztr ok getting some z's now. I look forward to lurking and sporadically ranting in this channel later :)
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tantek excellent
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tantek welcome and looking forward to your constructive contributions
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tantek would enjoy more iteration on the citation microformats discussions and ideas
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tantek thanks and good night!
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Loqi gute nacht!
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zztr i leave you with the factoid that all my 4000 bookmarks crawled one hop off (respecting robots.txt) are about 35 gigs and took about 3 days to download politely
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zztr night tantek and Loqi :)
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Loqi dude
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zztr ... over dsl with 4 threads
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tantek.com edited /2012/Academic_Citations_Web (+84) "see also - web citations microformats proposal" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty So I've started to write some code for my personal publishing system so that I can move away from Blogger: https://github.com/converspace/converspace/commits/master
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sandeepshetty Once I've frozen on the schema (which should be today: https://github.com/converspace/converspace/wiki/schema), I should be able to start publishing...
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sandeepshetty Do any of you publish/open-source your indieweb personal publishing system or at least the schema you use?
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tantek sandeepshetty - I use the hAtom scheme :)
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tantek and my publishing system is Falcon (http://tantek.com/w/Falcon) and I open-source the stable bits of it in the #cassis.js library: http://cassisproject.com/
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sandeepshetty Yeah I read about :)
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sandeepshetty So I'm guessing you use file-system?
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tantek yes - I think the wiki page notes that: http://tantek.com/w/Falcon
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sandeepshetty is making all sorts of typos due to lack of sleep
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sandeepshetty I haven't seen tagging on tantek.com, guessing it's not implement?
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tantek it's not, not yet
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tantek I haven't figured out what UI I want to provide for it
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sandeepshetty I've just decided to merge categories and tags into channels that allow selective subscriptions and like twitter they can be present anywhere in the post.
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tantek that's probably a good simplification to start with
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sandeepshetty The file-system approach was awesome for commodity web (shared) hosting. Most of the cloud providers don't providing persistence stores by default these days.
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barnabywalters adactio: I visited the UK’s second largest device testing lab today. It was a hugely educational experience!
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adactio barnabywalters: where was that?
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barnabywalters Exeter, in the little attic which is the nimbleworks studio
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barnabywalters they have a little table full of devices
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barnabywalters and an open door policy
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adactio Cool.
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tantek barnabywalters - re: u-* parsing: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-faq#normalizing_u-.2A_property_values
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barnabywalters tantek: fab, thanks for the clarification
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tantek anytime! it's good to write these down and answer them as we encounter them - you're likely not the only one to come up with such questions, likely just the first.
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@bioinfosm “@23andMe: supporting the efforts of @GeneticAlliance to improve patient access to clinical lab results: http://blog.23andme.com/news/23andme-supports-better-access-to-health-records/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_campaign=blog #ownyourdata”
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@ngsgene Patient &amp
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Loqi their info stays together! MT @23andMe @GeneticAlliance patient access to clinical lab results: http://blog.23andme.com/news/23andme-supports-better-access-to-health-records/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_campaign=blog #ownyourdata
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tantek do we need to start indiegenecamp?
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