#indiewebcamp 2013-02-16

2013-02-16 UTC
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tantek posterous is dying?
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tantek scrolls up
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tantek oops
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aaronpk http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous
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aaronpk and apparently the posterous founders were working on a new version that they charge $5/mo for from the beginning, and so now there is a shitstorm on HN about it http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5229229
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donpdonp rediscovers http://indiewebcamp.com/projects via a tweet
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aaronparecki.com edited /why (+22) "/* see also */" (view diff)
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tantek is trying to remember if Posterous going down warning is longer or shorter than Pownce going down warning.
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@t 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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tantek aaronpk - what did you think of http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct ?
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tantek tommorris - interested in particular in your opinion as well
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aaronpk one thing that may be missing, but not sure how to handle it...
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@jalbertbowdenii RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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tantek aaronpk, add to http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-feedback ?
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aaronpk sure
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tantek can discuss here too of course
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tantek didn't mean that to sound dismissive, more of offering one possibility
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@davidwalshblog RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@krynsky Another example of why I manage my own blog #ownyourdata - Posterous shuttering for good on April 30th http://thenextweb.com/twitter/2013/02/15/the-posterous-rides-away-as-in-shuts-down-april-30t/
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aaronpk well there's this guy making the rounds at a bunch of tech events in portland
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aaronpk he's extremely disruptive, but only because he's ridiculously loud and goes around asking everyone extremely enthusiastically what they do and where they're from
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tantek ah, that problem
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aaronpk he has already been kicked out of one or two bars by the bartenders during events
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tantek LOL
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aaronpk i haven't seen him get agressive yet, but I did hear one case of it
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@mattb_stellar RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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tantek so, to be blunt, is he drunk at the time? we had an instance of that happen at BarCamp and I had to deal with it personally
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aaronpk I'm not sure, I think one time hey was high on something, but didn't confirm
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tantek so, for now I'm guessing the person you describe does not have the wherewithal to actually setup an indie domain / site and sign-up.
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aaronpk no not so much
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aaronpk but that may not stop him from showing up
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tantek um, that's different. if you're not signed up as a participant, and you're not an apprentice, then you don't get to attend.
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tantek as organizers, we have to make sure the door volunteers understand that.
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tantek maybe document links to previous examples of this person's behavior on the indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-feedback page as something to look out for and consider adding if it becomes a problem?
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tantek or is this all word of mouth?
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aaronpk all word of mouth so far
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tantek ok, then link to this log for now ;)
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aaronpk first online documentation of it probably :)
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aaronpk so i'm a little worried about him specifically showing up, but as long as we turn him away at the door it will be fine
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aaronpk but there's also the possiblity of someone similar showing up to the event, where they're not being verbally abusive or anything, just completely obnoxious
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erinjo Are you looking specifically for examples of inappropriate behavior at events to link to? You could cite something about the guy who made threats against Startup Weekend.
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@canuckistani RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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aaronpk oh yea that too
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tantek I trust us as organizers to handle that on a case by case basis. We almost had that at the first IndieWebcamp and I think we handled it
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aaronpk portland's getting bigger
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tantek the "completely obnoxious" problem
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aaronpk not something needed to be documented in a code of conduct somehow?
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tantek so far that kind of behavior specifically has been handled fairly well case-by-case at BarCamps
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tantek (warning/stopping and/or kicking out)
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tantek and usually it tends to be a general sort of misbehavior - not directed at any one person or any one type of person
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tantek it's the latter that has shown a need of explicit documentation / explanation
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aaronpk ah good point
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aaronpk that's a good distinction
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tantek we're not going to be able to iterate all the way people can be jerks, but we can at least clarify what's ok or not so that people who *think* they're being ok can be more confident of doing so, and people being hurt feel more comfortable/supported speaking up about it.
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tantek so one of the reasons I've always pushed explicitly for multiple tracks/rooms at BarCamps is to essentially distract/minimize the ability of any one person to be disruptive. like they have to pick one particular room to go do their thing, and they can't disrupt the whole thing. this is usually frustrating enough to such trolls that they end up leaving of their own accord.
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tantek for this reason it is VERY important to NOT just have a single-track of discussions at a BarCamp like event - it makes it far too vulnerable to one jerk derailing the whole thing.
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tantek the more tracks, the more immune your event is to disruptors. the damage can be contained as it were. and when trolls feel like they can't get much attention, they usually leave.
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tantek of course if this was done by a group of individuals, you'd have to be more clever, like talk them into doing a session themselves on "how to troll a barcamp", and thereby self-contain themselves.
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aaronpk LOL
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tantek they might even document it on the wiki
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@philhawksworth RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@xtof_fr RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@satellitten_din RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@benatkin @jenn nice #indieweb tweet :-)
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aaronpk wow that's quite the .com http://jenn.com/
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@tabatkins RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@tomasdev RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@benatkin RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@benatkin RT @t: drafted @IndieWebCamp code of conduct: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct input and feedback welcome. #respect #speakingup (ttk.me t4NW1)
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@benatkin RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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benatkin I like the Code of Conduct draft
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@benatkin RT @krynsky: Another example of why I manage my own blog #ownyourdata - Posterous shuttering for good on April 30th http://thenextweb.com/twitter/2013/02/15/the-posterous-rides-away-as-in-shuts-down-april-30t/
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@benatkin #ownyourdata
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@barrow_me @loveofmysterySF @violetblue self hosting: it's not just for breakfast anymore. #ownyourdata
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benatkin for that obnoxious person, the first thing you said, aaronpk is that he asks too many questions
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benatkin well, you didn't put it that way, but you said he goes around asking people things
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tantek thanks benatkin
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tantek benatkin - "too many questions" can be a form of Denial of Service attack
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benatkin what about saying to respect people's privacy, by not asking questions
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benatkin hah, I was thinking along those lines :)
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benatkin ok, didn't complete that thought
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benatkin not asking questions in that way
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benatkin but what is *that way*?
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tantek benatkin - there are many such *that way*s
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tantek harrasment in general. unwelcome attention.
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tantek though the problems of last week were about more fundamental kinds of disrespect
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benatkin yes, unwelcome attention and disrespect. not respecting their privacy, or their time, or their wishes
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tantek yes.
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tantek aside: whenever these discussions come up, someone inevitably brings up, either seriously, or rhetorically, what about religions/beliefs/cultures etc. that discriminate against gender or sexual orientation etc.
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tantek since we're also supposed to be respecting people's varying religions/beliefs/cultures - what to do when that comes in conflict with respecting gender or sexual orientation etc.
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tantek and I think I have a hypothesis (a principle) to handle this - would like some feedback (before tweeting etc.)
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benatkin ok I won't tweet it :)
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tantek so here goes: software (culture, creed) MUST NOT disrespect hardware (gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, race). #RFC2119
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tantek can you think of any counter-examples?
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tantek is working on crafting an anti-harrasment namshub
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benatkin no, except that Islam divides liberals and libertarians on this
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tantek how?
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benatkin oops I guess I just revealed that I'm the wrong person to ask
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benatkin well, some groups are of the opinion that sexual orientation is not hardware
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tantek benatkin, science trumps opinion there.
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benatkin yes.
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benatkin the first thing I thought of when I read that is that Richard Dawkins would agree with you, and he's a polarizing figure
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benatkin perhaps too polarizing for indiewebcamp
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tantek I'm making a polarizing (MUST NOT) statement.
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benatkin I see. Yes, that's less problamatic.
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tantek well I'm starting with a personal statement
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tantek and seeing how that goes
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tantek I'm predicting that all this code of conduct stuff may hit some point where we have to draw lines / priorities when things come into conflict
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tantek (as any philosopher should)
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tantek (would)
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benatkin I wish I hadn't called out one religion. I can see how many very religous people have a lower level of participation at tech events than athiests, agnostics, and less devout religius people
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benatkin and I think that explains part of the lack of diversity in other areas. It's a hard problem.
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benatkin letting software disrespect hardware drives out people, and so does adamantly stopping it
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tantek usually if you're unsure about participation by any one group of people or people with a particular attribute, best thing to do is to just talk to someone in said group or with said attribute
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tantek and get their opinion / point of view
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tantek you don't have to agree, but at least you can attempt to understand each other, which is an important forward step.
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benatkin yes.
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benatkin I grew up religious. I might have avoided a tech event that had swearing at some point, but it would have been due to piety rather than faith.
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benatkin It would be different with people in my family that fit into it better.
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benatkin I think you have to ask them, but I also think it would be hard to understand them.
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benatkin the policy doesn't seem too different from PyCon's except for "Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for PyCon."
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tantek so offensive jokes are already covered by the respect/disrespect clauses
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benatkin I think that's a big deal. I dislike it, but I think it might be effective.
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benatkin true.
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tantek wait what do you dislike? and what's a "big deal"?
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tantek just making sure I understand
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benatkin well, I see "excessive swearing" as reducible to "swearing"
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benatkin well, gtg. I like your hardware/software analogy, it's grown on me.
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benatkin I think it's good to leave swearing out of the universal one, since "excessive swearing" will often be interpreted as just "swearing"
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tantek Agreed
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tantek I'm not sure it's an analogy.
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benatkin the people running the event and the speakers will set the tone
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tantek I think it's quite literal
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benatkin and if they really want people to not have to worry about naughty words, they can add it to a customized version of it
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tantek I think we can worry about the naughty words problem if it actually becomes a problem.
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benatkin I see. I've thought of the terms hardware and software that way, too. Guess I've drawn an arbitrary line between computers and other things since then...
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benatkin yes...it's a problem at many events, depending on who you ask, but not at the last IndieWebCamp
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tantek Yeah
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tantek I think I first saw that hardware/software metaphor in Snowcrash
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@haxor No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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@cstanhope RT @haxor: No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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@kevinbeynon RT @haxor: No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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Stevef tantek:adactio: grep of 35000 home pages form top 50,000 sites usage of <cite> element http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/cite.html - raw data http://webdevdata.org
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Stevef warning 5mb html page
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Stevef grep of 35000 home pages form top 50,000 sites usage of <cite> element http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/cite.html (warning 5mb html page) - raw data http://webdevdata.org
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@aaaq2223 RT @t: drafting an @IndieWebCamp Code of Conduct. Step 1, research: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-examples (re: #SpeakingUp and taking action). (ttk.me t4NT4)
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tommorris on the matter of dogfooding, http://tommorris.org/posts/8094
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@Case RT @haxor: No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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@benatkin RT @haxor: No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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@mattb_stellar RT @haxor: No. The most durable blogging platform ever created is your own node on the open web. #indieweb
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tommorris Loqi: !tell tantek am currently on ropey, unreliable internet in hotel in Venice, Italy, but will respond to conference policy stuff at some point.
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tommorris !tell tantek am currently on ropey, unreliable internet in hotel in Venice, Italy, but will respond to conference policy stuff at some point.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tommorris !tell tantek also, you might find this quote from Kierkegaard an amusing early take on dogfooding. http://tommorris.org/posts/8094
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tommorris greetings from Venezia, barnabywalters
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barnabywalters greetings tommorris! What are you up to in Venie?
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tommorris sightseeing with family
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barnabywalters nice
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tommorris and, well, mapping. ;)
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barnabywalters of course :)
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barnabywalters are you doing some international indieweb check-in testing too?
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tommorris unlikely. the wifi in the hotel is sub-par and 3G is expensive
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tommorris to browse the web, I'm having to use SSH tunnelling back to my VPS in the US
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barnabywalters wow
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barnabywalters I stayed in a german hotel once where they allowed passwordless logins to the network, but blocked port 80 unless you paid
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barnabywalters they hadn’t blocked *any* other ports, so I could do mail, IRC and https browsing for free!
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barnabywalters and accessed http content via a https proxy :)
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tommorris heh. reminds me of my university which blocked port 22 (ssh). but it's a piece of piss to run sshd on port 443, which is the same port as HTTPS
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tommorris and most people can't tell the difference between HTTPS traffic and SSH traffic given that both are encrypted
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@brennannovak @doingitwrong it does solve the issue of keeping ones server online, but you should checkout @indiewebcamp
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@lmorchard RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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@brianloveswords RT @t: 2008:2013 :: @sixapart:@twitter :: @pownce::@posterous http://blog.pownce.com/2008/12/01/goodbye-pownce-hello-six-apart/ :: http://blog.posterous.com/thanks-from-posterous #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4NX1)
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Loqi tantek: tommorris left you a message 3 hours, 36 minutes ago: am currently on ropey, unreliable internet in hotel in Venice, Italy, but will respond to conference policy stuff at some point.
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Loqi tantek: tommorris left you a message 3 hours, 35 minutes ago: also, you might find this quote from Kierkegaard an amusing early take on dogfooding. http://tommorris.org/posts/8094
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tantek tommorris, that's a great quote!
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tantek worth getting it repeated in the channel: http://tommorris.org/posts/8094
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tantek Hmm… Loqi doesn't appear to be quoting URL titles in the channel any more
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tantek cc: aaronpk
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tantek "Metaphorically speaking, a person's ideas must be the building he lives in - otherwise there is something terribly wrong." - Søren Kierkegaard
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aaronpk is that useful? some people were getting annoyed by it in other channels
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tantek I though it was useful
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aaronpk better idea: look for an h-entry and use that!
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tantek heh - how many channels is Loqi in?
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aaronpk a few :)
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aaronpk the noisiest channel is #pdxtech where he gets pushed to his limits
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tantek it's funny, we don't have an #sftech channel equivalent
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tantek I wonder what in PDX tech culture encourages such a convergence.
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tommorris tantek: thouhg you'd enjoy that
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+255) "add Kierkegaard quote" (view diff)
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tommorris tantek: Provocations is an edited collection of Kierkegaard's spiritual writings. I'll try and dig out the original quote when I'm not on a shitty connection
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tantek sounds good
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tommorris or the original source rather
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