#indiewebcamp 2013-03-25

2013-03-25 UTC
sdboyer__, bretolius, sdboyer, ddahl__, andreypopp, Nadreck, aaronpk, heathjs, zztr1, singpolyma, Phae, donpdonp, reidab, josephboyle, b0bg0d, b0bg0d1, wajiii-afk, jaquecoustaeau, tantek and caseorganic joined the channel
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@rache65 http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=60132 hmmmm the indieweb I get the idea - always evolving whats next on our connected horizon
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@rache65 http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=60126 an aha moment - why we could be heading to indieweb? take back your control of the web when everything changes
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@aca_video @indiewebcamp Have you selected video services for your June event? We’d love to talk to you about it! info -at- http://acavideo.com
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tantek what do people think? do we need conference video services at indiewebcamp?
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tantek how do we distinguish between a blog post that's essentially just a comment on/for another blog post, and an a blog post that's an article that happens to cite another blog post for some material?
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tantek in all meanings of "distinguish"
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aaronpk what about the "in-reply-to" class that's been discussed a bit?
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tantek displaying on your site, pingbacks/webmentions, rel link values, citations, and reverse citations (where you list on a post the things that linked to it, like comments or other articles)
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tantek aaronpk, in-reply-to is a good start, but doesn't really make this distinction
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tantek you could write an article that's in-reply-to a bunch of other blog posts and cite them all
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barnabywalters agreed with aaronpk, my current usage is: in-reply-to if a note/article makes no sense without the replied-to post, quote/h-cite otherwise
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tantek but you wouldn't go put that as a comment on all those blog posts
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure if I were to put an "in-reply-to" class on a link, I would in fact go comment on those posts with a link to my post
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barnabywalters tantek: I personally would not use in-reply-to if I the post isn’t suitable as a comment
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tantek barnabywalters - that's an interesting distinction. a *comment&* makes no (little?) sense without the context of the original post that the comment is in reply to
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barnabywalters tantek: that is my working distinction. I thought that was the use case for in-reply-to
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barnabywalters but thinking about it I’ve never actually seen it defined anywhere
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tantek in-reply-to is helpful as a thread of conversation/discussion as well
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tantek however a reply can actually be useful in its own right without reading the original
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tantek "never actually seen it defined anywhere" - right, which is why I'm asking
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barnabywalters tantek: “useful” is hazy
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tantek I've seen people write rebuttals where the rebuttal stands on its own, and you don't need to read the original
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tantek but those are often full blown articles with their own structure
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tantek as opposed to a comment
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barnabywalters tantek: but if it stands on it’s own, in-reply-to is not required
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aaronpk isn't that a "note" vs "article" distinction then?
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barnabywalters oh no, not this again ;)
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tantek aaronpk - not necessarily. some comments have structure also, like blockquotes
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barnabywalters so, these are my notes which have in-reply-to, which I have deemed to not make much sense without reading the replied post: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=reply
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tantek barnabywalters - we'll keep discussing article vs. note until we have it well figured out :)
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barnabywalters and these are my notes which quote something: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=quote
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barnabywalters immediate difference I see is that the replies all start with an h-card, the quotes with a <blockquote>
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barnabywalters although that is influenced by twitter @reply convention
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tantek right
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tantek do you have any structured replies to blog posts?
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tantek rather than tweets?
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tantek like the in the way we ask people to blog their comments about our posts?
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tantek (rather than having our own commenting UIs on our sites)
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barnabywalters tantek: by structured you mean multiple paragraphs, or headers/title?
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barnabywalters I do have some longer notes, maybe one or two full articles…
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tantek barnabywalters - either
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tantek though multiple paragraphs could be "just" a note also
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tantek at some point, a note becomes structured enough to become an article
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tantek I don't think we've drawn a precise line (or if it's possible to do so)
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barnabywalters my reply notes with multiple <p>s: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1083/ http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/980/ http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/974/
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tantek barnabywalters, re: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1083/ - you want @cassisjs - not @cassis (on twitter)
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barnabywalters none of those really felt structured enough to warrant an entire article — they are all spoken as if in conversation to the person I’m replying to
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barnabywalters which is another distinction
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barnabywalters tantek: oops!
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barnabywalters changed
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tantek by "at the mo mirrored" did you mean "at the moment mirrored" ? is that a typo or a colloqualism?
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barnabywalters colloquialism
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barnabywalters well, more of a bad habit — I’ve never heard anyone else use “mo”
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tantek barnabywalters I like the writing style of your multi-paragraph comment notes - they make sense
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tantek and read like comments one might make on a blog post
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tantek but yes - all of them make little sense without reading the original
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barnabywalters thanks
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tantek that being said, I find it odd that the link to the original is at the *bottom* of those posts
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tantek and hidden behind an @-reference
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barnabywalters yep, it’s not optimal and on my list of design bugs to sort out
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tantek I kind of expected the "In reply to " itself to be hyperlinked
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tantek not just the person's @-name
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barnabywalters okay, interesting
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tantek because when I see a linked @-name (or full name) I expect that to go to a top level site / profile
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tantek not a specific post
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tantek however if the link text was something like "Chris Messina wrote"
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tantek then it's clear from the phrasing context that it's a reference to a particular piece of writing and not just to Chris as a person
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barnabywalters so that would then require a partial quote/title in order to make sense
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barnabywalters but yes, that, above the note rather than below (mimicking twitter) is probably a good start for improving that particular bit of design
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barnabywalters and keep the contextual data to datetime and location
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tantek no Twitter puts it above
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tantek or rather when you click on a tweet
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barnabywalters yeah, that’s what I meant
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tantek it shows the in-reply-to embedded *above* the tweet you clicked on
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barnabywalters mimicking twitter is the thing I need to do
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tantek before
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barnabywalters in *some* of their clients :/ *ahem* twitter for mac *ahem*
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tantek in terms of "require a partial quote/title in order to make sense" - that's kind of what I've already been naturally doing on my "reply" notes
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tantek barnabywalters - when I say "in twitter", assume twitter.com on desktop browsers :)
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tantek I don't really pay much attention to Twitter "clients"
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barnabywalters yeah, they expose twitter’s “delivering a consistent experience” hypocrisy
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tantek here are some examples of my "reply" notes (with the partial quotes inline)
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tantek http://tantek.com/2012/174/t2/opposite-posse-pesos-publish-elsewhere
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tantek http://tantek.com/2011/261/t3/calling-web-actions-webactions-make-sense-seconds-users
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barnabywalters interesting that your convention is to broadcast the conversation out to all instead of targeting the reply directly at the replyee (?), and to put the link at the end
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tantek and one of my favorites where I replied with an embedded image: http://tantek.com/2011/165/t3/visited-google-declined-nda-visitor-badge-printed
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barnabywalters are those lego portraits of Google people?!
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tantek barnabywalters re: "convention is to broadcast the conversation out to all instead of targeting the reply directly at the replyee" - it's because Falcon doesn't have explicit Twitter in-reply-to syndication support yet :/
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barnabywalters please tell me the QR code is lego also
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tantek those are LEGO portraits of the Google Founders, and yes the QR code is LEGO also
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tantek that's from the NYC office
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tantek btw nicely done with documenting http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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tantek nudging tommorris to expand http://indiewebcamp.com/Ferocity
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barnabywalters thanks, it’s a bit overdue. It does have it’s own domain, but I haven’t installed it there because it’s not really ready for general use
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tantek and aaronpk to settle on a name for his software - "p3k" ?
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barnabywalters might redirect taprootproject.com to the wiki page for the mo
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tantek that's what I did for cassisproject.com :)
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tantek well - to the wiki page on tantek.com/w/ at least
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tantek so one of the reason I'm asking about the "comment" vs. "article" distinction, is in thinking about the design of how to list other folks linking to my blog posts, in the footer of my blog posts
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barnabywalters the inline ol of names from your archives is probably a good starting point
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tantek here let me share a couple of examples
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tantek see the footer of: http://tantek.com/2013/073/b1/silos-vs-open-social-web for a bunch of different footer subsections
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barnabywalters having an elsewhere-type list of links is a nice shortcut to actually pulling in comments from those services
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barnabywalters after all, why should we store the comments on our own domains?
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tommorris tantek: I'll probably have a crack at filling out the ferocity page over the Easter break. kind of have a lot on at work, but four days off ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - it's not a shortcut as much as a stopgap
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tantek because I haven't written the code to do the reverse-syndication of silo comments
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tantek so at least those comments are discoverable
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tantek we should store the comments on our own domain if we value them
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@StarryKari Piwik gives you soooooo much more information than Google Analytics, which I consider anti-webmaster and anti-life at this point. #indieweb
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Loqi yea!
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tantek tommorris - that would be great
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tommorris actually, I'll add something to it shortly - a screenshot of my posting UI ;)
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tantek ooh!
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tantek screenshots++
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Loqi screenshots has 1 karma
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tantek heh
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barnabywalters needs to update his live posting UI demo
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tommorris.org uploaded /File:Ferocity_posting_UI.png "Posting UI for Ferocity"
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barnabywalters I think it’s it’s “live” for about 5 months ago
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tommorris.org edited /Ferocity (+266) "adding image and explanation of UI" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - that's a pretty clean and simple posting UI
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tantek barnabywalters - would love to see yours too
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tommorris there's an expanded UI which is a bit more like a traditional blog post UI
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barnabywalters does screenshot
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barnabywalters or maybe animated gif of the posting flow :)
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tantek all I have is a bunch of sketches of my desired posting flow from ~2010. sigh.
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tantek I think I've shown them to aaronpk
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barnabywalters tantek: would be interested to see those
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@BarnabyWalters Doing another demo of my #indieweb posting UI, this time for an animated #gif! (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1187/)
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tantek barnabywalters - maybe I should make a flipbook :P
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barnabywalters tantek: lol :D
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barnabywalters the flipbook is an underappreciated art form! certainly the dead tree equivalent of a gidf
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barnabywalters s/gidf/gif
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: the flipbook is an underappreciated art form! certainly the dead tree equivalent of a gif
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barnabywalters tangible, accessible, etc
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barnabywalters remixable (unlike <video>)
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barnabywalters draggable
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barnabywalters woah imageoptim does an amazing job on gifs
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barnabywalters >90% size reduction
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waterpigs.co.uk uploaded /File:taproot-posting-ui.gif "A demo of the [[Taproot]] posting UI as of 2013-03-24"
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+66) "/* Notes */ Added gif note posting preview" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - would be great to see a still of the "posted" screen
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tantek it goes by too fast
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tantek the screen where the "Posting … " button says "Saved!"
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barnabywalters yeah, just doing that
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barnabywalters oh wait, when it’s still in the posting UI but it’s saved?
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tantek interesting that it shows you the generated markup
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barnabywalters yeah, that was a funny accident which is actually quite useful for making quick edits/typo fixes
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barnabywalters so I left it in
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barnabywalters also *great* for debugging as you immediately see the generated HTML and any tags scraped from the markup
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tantek totally
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barnabywalters I add a lot of tags automatically — all documented at http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/tagging-practises
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barnabywalters argh, I keep on trying to drag and drop files into windows to upload them
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waterpigs.co.uk uploaded /File:note-saved-ui.png "A still from [[File:taproot-posting-ui.gif|the gif]] showing what [[Taproot]]’s posting UI looks just after the note got saved."
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+86) "/* Notes */ added still of the UI just after the note got saved" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I remember you used to have some checkboxes or something for indicating whether you wanted to POSSE out a post to Twitter or FB
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tantek did those go away? do all your posts now auto-POSSE?
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, that was a while ago. now it is a little different — notes get posted to twitter automatically unless I tag them with notweet
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barnabywalters FB posse is now manual, using their feed URL API
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barnabywalters which is okay for me as I rarely POSSE to facebook (mostly musical friends there, not interested in my tech babble)
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tantek is there a way to use IFTTT to automate POSSEing to FB?
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barnabywalters probably, maybe using RSS actions
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tantek I notice that adactio uses IFTTT to POSSE his blog posts to FB
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barnabywalters adactio is on FB? wow
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tommorris I'm doing mine via Twitter.
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tommorris so, my posts go to Twitter and then Twitter posts them to FB
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tantek barnabywalters - I think he may be purely POSSEing to FB and not otherwise using it
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tantek tommorris - same here
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barnabywalters tommorris: the downside to that being that you can’t get the URL of the facebook post
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barnabywalters not that it’s any use as you’ve got to be signed in
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barnabywalters FB URLs don’t really count as URLs :(
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tantek right - it's behind a walled garden
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barnabywalters only reason I keep them is to possibly to backfeed in the future
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tommorris I have thought about writing my own post-to-Facebook thing, mostly as a way to learn how to use the FB API
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barnabywalters and I’d rather store fake URLs than silo-specific opaque IDs
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barnabywalters tommorris: expect slowness :/
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+185) "POSSE Support" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct-examples (+91) "add DrupalCon Portland 2013 Code of Conduct" (view diff)
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi gute nacht!
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tantek so here's an example of something that uses/references one of my blog posts, but I wouldn't consider a comment:
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tantek my blog post: http://tantek.com/2011/214/b1/osx-lion-full-screen-bug-workarounds
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tantek referencing article: http://www.tuaw.com/2013/02/26/play-dvdmedia-files-with-vlc/
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tantek I still think it is useful to have my blog post link to such things, as my readers may be curious what other discussions / articles spawned as a result, or other related reading that cites my post (since they already took the time to read it and have it in mind as context)
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tantek http://www.tuaw.com/2013/02/26/play-dvdmedia-files-with-vlc/
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tantek I'm thinking of listing such articles in a "Referencing Articles" section at the end each post
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tantek ok updated accordingly: http://tantek.com/2011/214/b1/osx-lion-full-screen-bug-workarounds
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tantek feedback welcome
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tantek.com created /comment (+1120) "stub with examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /replies (+21) "until it makes sense as a distinct kind of post" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /article (+44) "/* See Also */ Semantics Of Article-Note Distinction" (view diff)
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