#indiewebcamp 2013-04-07

2013-04-07 UTC
b0bg0d, christopheducamp, tantek and scor joined the channel
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tantek aaronpk that's hilarious!
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tantek so I think the key to this problem: "when I publish a note with a hashtag, nobody knows about it"
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tantek in one word: syndication
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tantek is the same as the more general problem: "when I publish a note, nobody knows about it"
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tantek so part of good POSSE is syndicating especially the hashtags of your notes into silos so that people that watch those silos discover your content
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tantek.com edited /projects (+19) "/* IndieAuth and RelMeAuth */ main" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk I couldn't help but notice that of the four phrases in the list on that techcrunch article: open web, federated web, indie web, vendor relationship management
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tantek "indie web" is the only one that actually linked to community site on the topic
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tantek that tells me we're doing something right
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tantek "open web" has no one definitive reference (I wrote a blog post on open web, but I'd hardly call it definitive)
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tantek "federated web" got spun into a W3C interest group then community group and essentially lost momentum (W3C tends to do that)
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tantek and VRM has died as a movement as well, so they linked to a wikipedia article instead
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tantek oh wow - and they link "federated web" to another techcrunch article which itself links to my Indie Web session from OSBridge last year! http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/916
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tantek so as much as techcrunch following the indieweb is any form of validation, we've grown enough to be heard and potentially have a broader impact
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tantek and with that - I'm off to bike to find some power
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aaronpk tantek: that's pretty hilarious about the links on the bottom of that techcrunch article!
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aaronpk so yes, the problem is syndication
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tantek aaronpk - so perhaps when creating the text to POSSE out to limited content length silos like Twitter, the automatic abbreviating code needs to prioritize some number of hashtags (or amount of characters for them) over the summary of the content itself?
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tantek or do you as the author just have to know to put the more important hashtags in the first 100 or so characters of your notes so they automatically get included in the syndicated abbreviated text?
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aaronpk my POSSE code already does prioritize hashtags when truncating, see http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2012/09/09/3/indieweb
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aaronpk for exactly that reason
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aaronpk so I found this yesterday... http://tagboard.com/indieweb
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aaronpk who are these guys?
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aaronpk whois ftw... http://seansperte.com/ and http://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdecker
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aaronparecki.com moved /Publish_Then_Syndicate_and_Replicate to /2011/Publish_Then_Syndicate_and_Replicate
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aaronparecki.com created /comment-policies (+1521) "Created page with "{{stub}} This page is an attempt to collect peoples' comment policies on their personal sites. === [http://aaronparecki.com/communication-protocols#commenting aaronparecki.com]..."" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /comment-policies (+62) "formatting headers" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /comment (+40) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - tagboard is cool!
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tantek.com edited /comment-policies (+645) "sites following How To Comment, IndieWebCamp Community Members" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: yea, it's pretty well done!
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tantek aaronpk - are you the only one that has implemented / follows our how to comment best practices?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
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aaronpk heh...
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aaronpk barnaby's might
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aaronpk although not sure if he's sending pingbacks yet
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tantek !tell barnabywalters does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
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tantek heh
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barnabywalters good evening tantek
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barnabywalters I support everything there apart from accepting webmention and displaying mentions under the article/note (currently they are listed at /mentions)
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tantek I think that's close enough to add yourself and state exactly that under http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
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barnabywalters I think going forward I will let any pingbacks pop up automatically at /mentions, but prune the ones which get shown under the note by an intelligent whitelist/manual approval
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barnabywalters e.g. if you’re in /contacts, you’re okay, if I’ve mentioned you in the note you’re replying to, you’re okay
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barnabywalters hopefully soon: if you’re 1, 2, etc degrees of separation from me, you’re okay
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /comment-policies (+52) "/* Sites Implementing How To Comment */ added myself" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - those are great ideas!
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks, should be fairly simple to implement most of them, esp. if I add mention machine tags to the notes
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barnabywalters I’m now fairly busy working for brian suda, but now I’m in an apartment I have evenings again :)
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barnabywalters ooh, interesting stuff in the logs RE hashtags and discoverability
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tantek whoa - working with Brian Suda! Awesome and get him to show up here too!
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, doing a 4 month paid internship type thing. I’ll try :)
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barnabywalters if we can get some form of near-realtime hashtag/normaltag aggregation going, that would be super powerful
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barnabywalters it’d enable all sorts of cool location/topic/mention mashups
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barnabywalters no idea how to make something like that, but I’d guess: service which PuSH-subscribes to as many feeds it can find, then grabs any p-category/rel-tag data it can, follows XFN links and PuSH-subscribes there too
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barnabywalters then a simple API which makes a list of the most recent links tagged with X category, or in X location
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barnabywalters some UI/API for adding your own feed to the service
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barnabywalters it probably wouldn’t even have to hold onto the data for long — it could be fairly liberal about throwing away old data
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tantek.com edited /comment (+565) "/* How To */ split making/accepting comments how to. add "Addtional support" per barnabywalters's ideas from IRC" (view diff)
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tantek ok - I split up the "how to" of how to make a comment vs. accept a comment - so people can incremental support either one in whatever order makes sense for them
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barnabywalters thanks — that’s probably a useful clarification to have
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tantek since I've yet to do either, I'd appreciate if you guys that do support this review this: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Accept_a_comment
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barnabywalters it’s interesting that both aaronpk and I are accepting pingbacks, but not really doing anything with them
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I wouldn't say i'm "not doing anything" with them
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barnabywalters or rather, not using them as “comments” but as just as personal notifications of linkification
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tantek I'm writing from what we've discussed, somewhat secondhand - so I'd appreciate if you folks that have implemented accepting comments add any clarifications
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aaronpk I see them in realtime and store them and use to find things that mention sites I run
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aaronpk I like your thoughts on how to whitelist incoming pings
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barnabywalters okay, rephrased to: not using pingback as comments
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barnabywalters but as notifications — which all but removes the spam problems
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tantek interestingly enough - this kind of whitelisting of comments is something we discussed as an XFN use case way back in the (2003) day
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tantek oh my goodness, it's been over 10 years since I propose rel="friend" at SXSW Interactive 2013. wow.
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barnabywalters 10 year anniversary of XFN is later on this year, right?
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tantek right - december
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /comment (+124) "/* Make a comment */ Added microformats-2 markup suggestion" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment (+19) "/* Accept a comment */ rephrase grammar a bit" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment (-10) "comment, as well" (view diff)
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barnabywalters yay merge conflict
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /comment (+115) "/* Accept a comment */ grammar and order clarifications" (view diff)
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barnabywalters something I am considering adding to my display/quoting/commenting/general linking guidelines is: if you’re kind enough to link to me, please refrain from using a link shortener — they kinda break the web
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/patrol () "marked revision 2263 of [[comment]] patrolled" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - agreed - do it
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waterpigs.co.uk created /post (+234) "Created page with "{{stub}} “post” can refer to either: * A discreet piece of content (perhaps a [[note]] or and [[article]]) * The act of creating the aforementioned content ** Also used els..."" (view diff)
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tantek wait how can we have not had a [[post]] page?
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tantek oh, we already have http://indiewebcamp.com/posts
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barnabywalters ah, I’ll redirect
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barnabywalters I checked Post, but not plural
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barnabywalters although, post singular refers to the verb, which is in itself useful
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /post (+91) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+194) "add disambig for post as well as posts" (view diff)
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tantek I think it made more sense just to combine the two
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tantek so I added the verb disambig to posts. as "posts" is also a verb, 3rd person present tense e.g. "she posts a comment"
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barnabywalters this is true
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tantek.com edited /posts (-10) "no longer a stub" (view diff)
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barnabywalters initial version of my linking/commenting/quoting display guidelines: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/
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barnabywalters off to eat, bbiab
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tantek barnabywalters - good update
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tantek btw re: using variants of your name, e.g. Barnaby, B. Walters
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tantek you could encourage use of the abbr element for those, provide an example
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tantek e.g. if they only want to refer/link to you by your given name in the prose of a post for brevity reasons, they can use: <a class="h-card" href="http://waterpigs.co.uk"><abbr title="Barnaby Walters">Barnaby</abbr></a>
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tantek say hi to briansuda!
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tantek.com edited /quoting (+112) "new section IndieWeb Display Guidelines with barnabywalters's display-guidelines page as an example" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: ah, good catch on the <abbr> usage, I forgot that
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barnabywalters I’ll say hi to Biran tomorrow :)
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barnabywalters added (http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/#update-2013-04-07T18:45:00+00:00)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+932) "/* POSSE to Twitter */ add POSSE to Twitter in general section with explicit listing of Twitter's limitations and thus respective POSSE strategies/guidelines" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - re: prioritiziing hashtags when POSSEing, included that among other general tips for POSSEing to Twitter: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter_in_general
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+144) "/* POSSE to Twitter in general */ grammar" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+161) "/* Posts about the IndieWeb */ add tagboard for discovery" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+94) "/* Posts about the IndieWeb */ Find stuff about the indieweb with Tagboard, Google News" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - do you know the Tagboard folks? They should include Flickr tags too!
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tantek they could easily consume Flickr's feed: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb&lang=en-us&format=atom
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tantek apparently Atom is the default: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb
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barnabywalters hadn’t come across tagboard before — nice find
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tantek aaronpk found it
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tantek I just captured it on the wiki :)
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barnabywalters if anyone does know the people behind it, the “post #hashtag” is the perfect place for a web action :)
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barnabywalters nice find aaronpk
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barnabywalters hey, it links to indiewebcamp.com? so they let people “own” hashtags?
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tantek they let people "create" tagboards, and when you create one, you can add a definition, link, and avatar for it!
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barnabywalters hm, that is a little concerning
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tantek.com created /own-your-data (+114) "stub, you know, in case someone might want to link here" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters: http://about.tagboard.com/legal
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tantek barnabywalters - just created: http://tagboard.com/ownyourdata
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tantek :)
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tantek and OTOH, my personal hashtag is spammed with who knows WTF is going on: http://tagboard.com/tantek
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barnabywalters tantek: lol, that is even funnier than the mentions for @t
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barnabywalters “mine” has lots of pets on: http://tagboard.com/barnaby
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tantek.com edited /principles (+41) "be explicit - own your data" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /own-your-data (+43) "see also tagboard" (view diff)
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barnabywalters judging by the random bit of code echoed when I sign up, they are using PHP
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tantek.com edited /when (-10) "make "When" redirect to always the next IndieWebCamp" (view diff)
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barnabywalters okay, so apparently I now “own” #barnaby
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barnabywalters this
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barnabywalters is nonsense
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barnabywalters nice tool though
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tantek created http://tagboard.com/indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters oh wow, I can request advanced features like moderation, curation, custom styling and API access
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barnabywalters this unnerves me
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tantek.com edited /posts (+62) "Posts about indiewebcamp" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013 (+108) "/* Share */ blog, see what others are posting about indiewebcamp" (view diff)
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tantek oh that is funny about upgrading for moderation etc.
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tantek huh
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barnabywalters so, mixed feels about tagboard — looks like a really nice service, but tag “ownership” and potential for abuse is unnerving
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barnabywalters e.g. I randomly attached my URL to #barnaby — what right do I have to do that?
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tantek that is a bit odd
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tantek should be more wiki like
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barnabywalters although, I can’t think of a better way to handle #hashtag -> URL resolution, so I should shut up
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barnabywalters apart from, not doing it
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barnabywalters or having a reddit-style up/downvoted list of “related links”
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tantek well you could think of Wikipedia as such a mechanism
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tantek every article there is essentially a community edited description for that hashtag
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barnabywalters yeah, so just redirect from #hashtag -> enwp.org/Hashtag
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barnabywalters and let WP disambiguation handle the rest
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tantek right - that should be the default
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tantek clearly there's incentive here to create tagboards for every tag you've ever used in your notes.
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tantek and photos etc.
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barnabywalters yeah, which IMO is a problem with hashtag aggregation
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barnabywalters people use tags differently
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barnabywalters this is why rel-tag URL tag namespacing is such a good thing
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tantek sure - it's a problem with "owning" a hashtag
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tantek really the pages about hashtags should be wiki-like
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tantek so you can disambiguate as well
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barnabywalters e.g. waterpigs.co.uk/tags/music might mean a subtly (or not so) different thing to tantek.com/tags/music
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tantek or document different uses of hashtags for things over the years
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tantek barnabywalters - sure
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tantek and especially if they were categories of posts rather than just tags
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barnabywalters any hashtag aggregator puts blind faith in the fact that everyone uses tags for the same things
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tantek ok I'll go off and create a bunch of open related tagboards just to direct them to reasonable places
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barnabywalters which works okay for a subset of tags
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tantek well it works ok for time proximal similar usage
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tantek since they get clustered together by time in the stream that is displayed
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tantek so that's ok
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barnabywalters “let the tagboard.com landgrab begin” :/
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barnabywalters yeah, tags changing over time is another interesting one
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tantek.com edited /To-do (+247) "Tagboards" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /To-do (+58) "indiewebcampuk too" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - well, it seems reasonable to "land grab" anything indie web related, and link them to indiewebcamp.com wiki pages which then can be community curated.
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tantek solving the problem by a layer of indirection
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tantek :)
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barnabywalters communally created by anyone who owns their identity, but yes
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tantek right - we're setting a higher bar
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barnabywalters I am not against us landgrabbing even vaguely relevant stuff if we can, I just don’t think the idea makes any sense
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barnabywalters that is, the idea of owning a hashtag
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tantek sure. let's just try and make a positive thing out of it.
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tantek and see what happens
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barnabywalters positive reframing FTW! :)
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tantek :)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /webactions (+60) "/* See Also */ Added link to webactions tagboard" (view diff)
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@latrippi RT @t: Think users just want to use FB/G+/Twitter connect? Go do some user testing: http://identity.mozilla.com/post/45842909320/users-dont-like-social-login #identity #indieweb (ttk.me t ...
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bretolius was there any followup from adn to aaronpk's app.net challenge?
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aaronpk tantek: barnabywalters: just catching up! nice landgrab of indie/open things!
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aaronpk bretolius: I had a skype call with Dalton last week
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aaronpk I haven't had a chance to properly digest/paraphrase yet
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tantek aaronpk - interesting. any quick answers to when which standards will be supported?
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tantek or are open standards no longer a priority for adn?
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aaronpk I don't feel like I can give an accurate answer quickly :/
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tantek aaronpk - that's not a good sign.
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aaronpk heh
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tantek either open standards are a priority or they're not. if they're a priority, then it should be obvious which ones are being worked on, in what approximate order, with approximate implementation goals.
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tantek if there's no idea which ones are being worked on, or any implementation date goals, then they're clearly not a priority. it's that simple.
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aaronpk so, user demand is definitely the driving force behind development decisions
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tantek can't give an answer quickly == don't know == they're not a priority
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aaronpk also he said App.net needs plugins to be useful
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tantek right, so open standards are not a priority then.
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bretolius it didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards in that thread
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tantek that's fine - that's the excuse every silo gives
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tantek doesn't make the harsh truth any less true: open standards are not a priority for app.net
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tantek "didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards" is the rationalization silos give to deprioritize standards work
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tantek it's a tired old excuse
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bretolius adn is so strange
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tantek bretolius - not really. it's just a silo variant.
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aaronpk there are some open standards they are more interested in than others, particularly webfinger
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bretolius but its like they try to frame it as if its not
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tantek aaronpk - the flaw in the "App.net needs plugins to be useful" excuse is, well how do you define the interface for those plugins? with standards or proprietary?
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tantek and unfortunately we know it to be proprietary (yet another snowflake)
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tantek so "App.net needs plugins to be useful" is also bullshit
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aaronpk tantek: the answer in that case is most definitely proprietary
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tantek sorry, I should be more precise. bulshytt
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barnabywalters tantek: ??
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tantek http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Bulshytt
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barnabywalters ah, haven’t read that one yet
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tantek http://tantek.com/2012/126/b1/enjoyed-anathem-non-spoiler-quotes
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tantek barnaby, Anathem is highly recommended
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bretolius start a page http://indiewebcamp.com/Bulshytt listing qualifying statements from silos about how open they are
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tantek bretolius - brilliant!
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barnabywalters tantek: added to my reading list
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tantek.com created /Bulshytt (+463) "stub" (view diff)
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aaronpk omg you did it
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aaronpk lol
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barnabywalters ha ha awesome
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aaronpk so I can't find a mention of this online, but he did say something I'm intrigued by...
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aaronpk verified identity via DNS and webfinger
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tantek.com moved /Bulshytt to /bulshytt "lowercase"
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bretolius tantek, i just listened to our open source bridge talk from 2012, it was great! i especially loved the part about all the site shutdowns, in contrast with your discussion of google reader... how apropos, even though you didnt know at the time
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aaronpk I should ask him about how that's different from relmeauth
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Loqi definitely
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tantek thanks bretolius!
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tantek is that the podcast from the Rise of the Indie Web talk at OSBridge 2012?
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tantek do we have place for podcasts on IndieWebCamp.com?
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tantek aaronpk?
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bretolius Rise of the web yeah
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tantek bbiab
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aaronpk ooh, good thinking
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bretolius indie web*
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barnabywalters hm, not sure I’ve listened to that one
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tantek ok, off for a bit. I'll leave that creation to you guys :)
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bretolius http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/916
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barnabywalters cheers bretolius
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bretolius :)
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aaronpk hah! I don't know how this is the first time I've seen this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
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tommorris morning aaronpk! ;)
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