#indiewebcamp 2013-04-22

2013-04-22 UTC
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tantek so how about put h-entry on the <body> ? I mean, it's a permalink page right?
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tantek the h-entry *is* the primary thing of the page
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aaronpk that would be a solution. my question then is will things in the sidebar clutter up the h-entry?
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tantek nothing appears in the microformat except what you mark-up as properties
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aaronpk i mean most things in the sidebar are about the post anyway, but I do have the little "*ing" section
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tantek (oh and the implied stuff, which won't happen if you markup the p-name explicitly)
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aaronpk interesting
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tantek ok I've reread the above
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aaronpk really went down a rabbit hole with this one
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tantek didn't we solve it?
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aaronpk yes I believe so
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tantek also - parsing from Hn tags is a bit misguided
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aaronpk it's just that I started by adding markup for in-reply-to
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tantek great!
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tantek so the question of what is the p-name of a note I should answer as an FAQ
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tantek I mean, you could have looked at my note markup on tantek.com as an example ;)
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tantek but yes, you guys independently rederived it above
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aaronpk and then added mf2 to everything, then realized I need to make the body tag be the h-entry, then the whole geo discussion
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aaronpk oh yea, didn't think to look at your site, because I was originally looking for examples of 'in-reply-to' usage
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aaronpk heh
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tantek :)
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tantek I'm working on adding in-reply-to as well
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tantek but then I went down a design/presentation rabbithole
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tantek after I realized that to display replies properly I had to redesign what a note/post building block looked like
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tantek layout/presentation
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tantek so back to the drawing board
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tantek literally
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tantek rather, back to the drawing papernotebook :)
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aaronpk wish I was around another day here, would be fun to sketch some of this out with you!
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tantek aaronpk - to answer your questions about p-name and h-entry and a note: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#h-entry-faq
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@xtof_fr Les réponses #indieweb chez @eschnou http://christopheducamp.com/blog/les-reponses-indieweb-chez-eschnou/
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@xtof_fitbit Les réponses #indieweb chez @eschnou http://christopheducamp.com/blog/les-reponses-indieweb-chez-eschnou/
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bretolius http://wikileaks.org/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt#731 Interesting commentary on the use of shortnames
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bretolius a theoretical short-name system that could be used as a citation to a document in another document, and simply having the citation means you could address the exact document assuming its still available
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bretolius i guess the key concept being that the irrevocable shortnames are apart of some kind of ditributed hash tree
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xtof eschnou : if you're available 2013-05-03 I'd be happy to introduce an #indieweb workshop during BarcampOuiShareFest (collaborative economy in Europe) Doc Searls will be there to speak about VRM and identity More info to come on http://barcamp.org/BarcampOuiShareFest
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tommorris http://oneterabyteofkilobyteage.tumblr.com/
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tommorris ^ indiewebsters may enjoy this: a Tumblr that has a daily screenshot from Geocities. queued up one per day until 2027.
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barnabywalters tommorris: love that site — is “Tom’s place of joy” your old site? ;)
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tommorris Alas no.
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tommorris My first Geocities site had two Java applets on it. Good times.
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barnabywalters yay! my first site almost had a 6 minute animated GIF on, but alas it got scrambled in the upload and I was prevented from releasing that particular cultural wonder onto the internet
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Loqi :D
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barnabywalters actually, this December is the 10th anniversary of my first site — I have a blog post about it in progress
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tommorris my first webpage wasn't even on Geocities. it was hosted as a subdir on a server at my dad's then employer
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tommorris I just Archive.org'd it and found that their site is still there - http://web.archive.org/web/19961226220817/http://www.bownewp.co.uk/
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tommorris but my subdirectory didn't get archived, alas.
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barnabywalters wow, blurry menus! I’ve looked and looked for my first site but can’t find it either
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tommorris I'm proud to say that the first page I wrote was HTML-in-a-text-editor. because then there weren't really any authoring tools like FrontPage
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barnabywalters first HTML element I ever wrote was <marquee>, in frontpage :) But I couldn’t get it to work because I didn’t know what slash to use and where it went
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tommorris oh btw, I'm thinking about trying to organise a web history editathon. get a bunch of people together in London and online to try and edit Wikipedia to improve coverage of web history
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barnabywalters yeah, I saw your note about it — sounds like a great idea!
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tommorris over the weekend, I was working on the 'List of Yahoo! services' article and the 'Fire Eagle' article. prompted by the imminent closure of upcoming.org
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tommorris there's plenty of sources online, and I could probably find a venue in London
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barnabywalters yeah, go for it
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barnabywalters sounds like the kind of thing adactio might be interested in helping out with?
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barnabywalters given his very vocal dislike for Yahoo
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tommorris yep, might nudge him about it. and some mozilla people.
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/8223 ;)
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barnabywalters heh, of course :)
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barnabywalters similar to archive.is, which I came across yesterday
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tommorris archive.is is very useful.
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barnabywalters “these webpages will be around forever even if the original goes away”
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tommorris I've used archive.is links to replace links on Wikipedia to pinkpaper.co.uk after that shut down.
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barnabywalters useful, sure, but where is the content hosted, and the owner seems a little overconfident
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tommorris Yeah, it'd be nice if they could have some backup plans in place. Internet Archive as a potential backup for instance
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tommorris syndicate the stuff from archive.is to archive.org - peering agreements
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tommorris webcite.org is in danger of shutting down too.
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tommorris the damage that even trivial removals of content do to projects like Wikipedia is something I documented here - http://tommorris.org/posts/2640
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tommorris just taking down some "old content" means that citations we are using for fairly trivial things break... for no actual benefit.
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barnabywalters webcitation.org, right? http://webcite.org
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tommorris yes, webcitation.org - brainfart
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barnabywalters ah, cool — that is addressing some of the same use cases as indieweb link previews
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barnabywalters yeah, it’d be a pity if that shut down
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tommorris there's some discussion about whether Wikimedia UK should chuck them some cash.
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tommorris given that we rely on webcitation for a lot of stuff.
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+206) "/* What? */" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - I like your realworld example of a comment/reply that is in-reply-to multiple other posts: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/04/21/1/
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tantek have to admit there have been a few times where I've wanted to thread a reply of mine into multiple other posts by other people
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tantek one big challenge - how do you show the context of the other notes on your reply permalink page?
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tantek e.g. when I read http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/04/21/1/ - it frankly doesn't make much sense out of the context of the thread
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tantek but when I click through to the first in-reply-to visible link you provide there and go to: https://twitter.com/dybskiy/status/326063595332984832
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@dybskiy @aaronpk geonotes should do the trick, no?
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tantek then I see a thread of conversation that at least makes sense
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tantek wonderfully topical blog post by http://www.zeldman.com/2008/04/27/content-outsourcing-and-the-disappearing-personal-site/
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tantek (note the year)
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tantek "if world domination is your goal, think twice before offloading every scrap of you."
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aaronpk tantek: yes showoing the context of replies is currently a challenge i'm thinking about
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aaronpk also just for single posts
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tantek for single posts it seems fairly straightforward to just copy Twitter's design
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tantek rather, for replies to just one post
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tantek I'm assuming that's what you meant
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aaronpk yea
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aaronpk also thinking about the storage side though, since i don't have a database like I'd normally have
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tantek I found that one pretty easy to sketch out
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@t “… if world domination is your goal, think twice before offloading every scrap of you.” http://www.zeldman.com/2008/04/27/content-outsourcing-and-the-disappearing-personal-site/ #indieweb (ttk.me t4Pc1)
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eschnou tantek, aaronpk I realized with xtof comment on my post that there are two kind of pingbacks: replies and mentions, and it is not easy to distinguish them. One creates a conversation, the other is just a reference within another conversation.
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eschnou both would benefit a different treatment.
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tantek eschnou - this distinction is actually covered in the post footers page on the wiki :)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Footer_sections
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tantek there are replies/comments, and then there are mentions/referencing-articles
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eschnou and how do you distinguish them ? a different rel ? I haven't seen that documented/used.
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tantek eschnou - the way you distinguish them is whether the comment/reply permalink page uses in-reply-to or not
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tantek (automatically) distinguish them
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eschnou ok, so I could treat 'in-reply-to' as replies and show them 'twitter style' like I did, and leave the others as 'mentions' displayed somewhere else.
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tantek right, e.g. displayed in a lower section
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tantek.com edited /posts (+4) "/* Footer sections */ link comments" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Comments (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek ah, even covered this in the comments page
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Display_received_comments
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eschnou another issue I faced was to decide what to show: name, summary or content. So far I opted for showing only the title (marked by summary).
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tantek "If the hyperlink in the h-entry to the webmention target has in-reply-to markup, display the h-entry (summary/content abbreviated as necessary) in a "Comments" section, perhaps in the post footer."
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eschnou I'm a dev... I don't read the manual :-)
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tantek "Otherwise if the hyperlink to the original post lacks in-reply-to markup, then add it to a "Related Articles" or "Mentions" section, again in the post footer"
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tantek eschnou - it's ok that's why it's on the wiki, so we can quickly share URL answers to such questions
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tantek :)
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eschnou tantek, thanks for all the efforts !
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tantek eschnou - showing "only the title" makes no sense. no commenting systems work like that.
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tantek most comments don't have titles/names at all
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tantek (why pingback display is very broken)
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tantek more details on why pingback display recommendations are broken: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation#Existing_specifications_for_display
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eschnou assuming we have a twitter like conversation, what is a 'reply' marked up with ?
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eschnou content ?
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tantek h-entry
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tantek hopefully with a p-author h-card with p-name and u-photo and u-url for the avatar link/image/alt
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tantek and then with a p-content/e-content for the comment contents
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tantek then you can display that *just like a _normal_ blog comment*
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tantek indieweb comments should look at least as good as normal/local blog comments
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tantek the bizarre pingback title+double-ellipsed-summary is totally broken and should never be displayed
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tantek eschnou - btw do you have documentation anywhere of how and when Storytlr parses h-entry for comments etc.?
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eschnou well, the h-entry contains lots of stuff custom to the site it comes from, this leads to impossible to style html. This is why I just display the summary. I'm even planning to strip tags for security/presentation reasons.
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tantek eschnou - you can already do that per the spec by taking the p-content if it's there or the e-content innertext
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tantek no need to do anything custom/weird like stripping
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eschnou Not much doc I'm afraid, but it is all open source: https://github.com/storytlr/storytlr/blob/master/protected/application/public/controllers/PingbackController.php#L63
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eschnou Hacky, but it does the trick.
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tantek eschnou - would love to add Storytlr here and link to it: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#Implementations
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@shawnokeefe RT @t: “… if world domination is your goal, think twice before offloading every scrap of you.” http://www.zeldman.com/2008/04/27/content-outsourcing-and-the-disappearing-personal-site/ #indieweb (ttk.me t4P…
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eschnou p⁻content ? It is e-content in mf2 doc and usually full of inner tags.
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eschnou tantek, aaronpk if your have ideas on what to do different here, happy to get feedback: http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html
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eschnou moving the 'mentions' to another section is a next step.
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tantek eschnou - once you've parsed the e-content, you can further parse it just for it's innertext if you want
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tantek it can be either p-content or e-content
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tantek or you might see a p-summary too
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eschnou For now I try to continuously adapt to what I receive and do my best to make it 'look good', I guess that the more we are to do this, and the better we'll converge on common ways to do it.
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tantek eschnou - indeed. At some point we'll have a well defined "how to parse comments from webmentions" spec :)
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tantek until then, we have: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Display_received_comments
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tantek eschnou - this is looking better and better: http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html
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tantek Are you going to separate xtof_fr's reply into a mentions section?
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tantek also - I would suggest listing all replies/comments in *one* section, time ordered
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tantek hopefully that will force the issue to similar presentation between/among the two
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tantek issue *of
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tantek I noticed they're already really close! (indieweb vs. local comments)
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tantek which is *awesome*! :)
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aaronpk oh hey cool you styled my little h-cards!
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tantek aaronpk - isn't that awesome? and note how they're styled like the Comments icons down below too
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aaronpk yeah! looks great!
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tantek I think eschnou is closest to producing a beautifully integrated comments section
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aaronpk the race is on!
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tantek with both indieweb and local comments looking consistent and reading very naturally.
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eschnou aaronpk, the problem is I won't be able to style individual content of each mention when this gets popular :-) hence why I could like to strip tags of content.
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek the only clue that there's a difference being the "… ago" links to the indieweb permalinks
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aaronpk i'm debating continuing to publish that markup as well
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eschnou tantek, yes, all comments time ordered will be awesome, and will enable a true distributed conversation, where I can reply to aaronpk reply on my site and then he gets a pingback, etc...
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tantek eschnou - you could still look for / allow / style h-cards in notes
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tantek eshnou - sounds brilliant!
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aaronpk also i'm encountering an issue deciding what values to include in the little h-cards, in terms of: domain name, full name, nickname (?)
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tantek aaronpk - really?
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tantek isn't it just: <a class="h-card" href="homepage"><img src="avatar" alt="full name"/></a> ?
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aaronpk yes, beacuse sometimes the "@" before a username is part of the sentence, and i;m not displaying the "@" right now cause i'm showing full name
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aaronpk i write @username and it gets transformed, but what exactly does the username mean when you're actually referencing someone by domain name
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eschnou aaronpk, totaly agree on the @, I've decided to keep them, they are part of the content and have a meaning.
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eschnou aaronpk, easier for me since I reference only domains and don't do this twitter translation.
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aaronpk it holds even outside of twitter tho
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tantek aaronpk - you can actually represent all that if you want too:
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tantek <a class="h-card" href="site"><object data="photo"><abbr title="full name"><span class="p-nickname">@name</span></abbr></object></a>
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tantek you may need to add "type=image/jpg" to the <object>
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tantek to get some browsers to load/render it
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aaronpk so i can decide what to display by putting it inside the tag vs in the title attribute?
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tantek that is one axis of flexibility yes
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aaronpk that's good
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aaronpk that still means I have to decide what to display
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tantek for parsing purposes, the title of the abbr wins
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tantek (when parsing an abbr element directly for p-* properties)
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aaronpk also what is a nickname and how is that determined?
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tantek nickname is fairly loosely defined
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tantek so it's fine to use nickname to markup usernames
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tantek since they're often very nickname-like
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aaronpk bbiab
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tantek (and people do respond to being called them in person I've found)
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tommorris tantek: numerous friends of mine moan when I call them by their online nicks.
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tommorris especially some of the Wikipedians. but that's because they do have some very silly usernames.
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tommorris I'm IRL friends with "Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry".
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tommorris Other hilarious usernames have included: "Can't sleep, clown will eat me" and "Physics is all gnomes".
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eschnou aaronpk, tantek, I've unified comments/mentions. It looks great ! (see: http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html)
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eschnou now I need to filter out the one which are not replies but just mentions and put them in another section.
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aaronpk eschnou: it looks great!
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barnabywalters hey nice work eschnou
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eschnou thanks!
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barnabywalters when you reply to comments, are they first-class notes or old-style comments?
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barnabywalters to your own comments, I mean
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eschnou "old-style" comments
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eschnou :-)
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barnabywalters but that’s not a problem as they’re still hosted on your site
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barnabywalters and have fragment ID URIs, right?
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eschnou well, it will cause me a problem when I mention someone in a comment and send a pingback,
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eschnou if they parse the content, how do they know where to look for the comment vs the h-entry...
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eschnou should I add # fragment to the url to point them to that specific section ?
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barnabywalters yeah, this is a problem with that approach
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eschnou fragment id uri ? what is that ?
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Loqi that is one axis of flexibility yes
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barnabywalters Loqi: wut
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Loqi yeah!
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barnabywalters eschnou: yeah, a URI with fragment ID :)
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barnabywalters I can’t remember if the server gets to see the fragment ID though
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aaronpk browsers don't send the fragment in the request, but this isn't happening in a browser
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I thought as much
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eschnou so, pingback + uri with fragment to point to the comment may be the solution..
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eschnou aaronpk, could yo please check if you did get the pingback I just sent as a reply to your reply ?
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aaronpk eschnou: just got a pingback from "http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html#comment_4703"
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eschnou awesome :-)
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eschnou I guess I don't have proper annotation in the page for the comments, but it is getting there.
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barnabywalters eschnou: I had a poke through your pingback µf parsing source — I’d be interested to hear your reasoning for using the first h-card you find instead of h-entry -> author?
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eschnou barnabywalters, my initial focus/usecase is always storytlr<>storytlr communication, and in this case there is no author hcard within the entry, only one at the page level.
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eschnou but then when federating with others, I adapt
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barnabywalters ah, cool, okay
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eschnou always happy to get feedback and evolve things.
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barnabywalters eschnou: just trying to fix my pingback implementation so I can join in the conversation :)
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eschnou yeah !
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barnabywalters I seem to be successfully receiving pingbacks from eschnou, but not from my test wordpress.com blog
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barnabywalters not sure if wp.com lets me see the logs
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eschnou barnabywalters, I had issues testing from wordpress.com, pingback not very reliables.
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barnabywalters eschnou: okay, that’s good to know
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@eschnou Posted the picture: Having a federated conversation accross the #indieweb http://eschnou.com/entry/having-a-federated-conversation-accross-the-indieweb-62-24909.html
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eschnou I'm off for the day, it was a fun evening and I really enjoy the result. Hopefully I get some more time in the next days to continue. Cheers all !
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barnabywalters great stuff, goodnight :)
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Loqi sleep tight!
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eschnou Loqi, barnabywalters thx, see you tomorrow, send me a pingback when you are done :-)
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tantek scrolls up
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barnabywalters eschnou: onto it right now :) Found+fixed the bug, just writing tests then I’ll deploy
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eschnou awesome ! if you ping me and it works, you should see it immediately as a comment or on the mention page. If not, then w'll have to debug tomorrow.
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eschnou cheers
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tantek eschnou - yes, comment follow-ups should get their own permalink (without #) for better webmention/pingback interop
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tantek we should avoid depending on fragments at the server for anything
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Loqi yea
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tantek I like your use of @domainn-name
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tantek eschnou, nicely done with comment integration on http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html!
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tantek I think you're the first to be displaying indieweb comments automatically on your posts!
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barnabywalters at the very least, the first to give them equal (if not more) importance than native comments
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tantek barnabywalters - that too - but I don't know of anyone else displaying indieweb comments automatically at all
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tantek note that displaying ugly pingbacks doesn't count
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tantek since they're displayed as ugly pingbacks rather than comments
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barnabywalters that’s what I was referencing — and man is eschnou’s way better
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tantek eschnou - did you get your indiewebcamp.com signing-in to work with your domain?
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tantek.com edited /comment-presentation (-3) "/* Current Indiewebcamp Practices */ Laurent Eschenauer's blog automatically displays indieweb comments" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /storytlr (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /User:Eschnou.com (+77) "stub with an h-card" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Eschnou.com (+32) "projects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment-presentation (+73) "/* Current Indiewebcamp Practices */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Storytlr (-5) "dfn, rm extra ][" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /h-entry (+153) "use h-entry for, see also" (view diff)
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tantek so next up, let's see who's going to get integrated automatically displayed indieweb comments received via *webmention* rather than pingback. :)
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barnabywalters oh poo, I got endpoint detection of eschnou’s site working, but when I tried to send a pingback I got a 500 error :(
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barnabywalters !tell eschnou I got endpoint detection working but then a 500 error when trying to ping you :( any ideas?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I just tried to send a couple of pingbacks to you and got a “no link to this page” error for indiewebcamp.com — looking at my logs it seems that somewhere a redirect is being followed and it’s going to /Main_page
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tantek barnabywalters - are you directly sending a pingback, or are you using pingback.me as a webmention-to-pingback proxy?
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barnabywalters this is probably a problem on my end
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barnabywalters tantek: I’m sending my own
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tantek nicely done everyone
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reidbeels.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+455) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment-presentation (+63) "brainstorm now at least partially implemented!" (view diff)
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tantek woot! welcome reidab!
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Loqi :D
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barnabywalters oh awesome, the guest list for Portland 2013 is filling up a bit!
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tantek yes it is! in fact, it's only 2 months away!
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barnabywalters woo!
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reidab yay!
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Loqi woot
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@brianjesse "RSS feeds would be so much cooler if items could declare themselves "in reply to" other items or URLs." http://thehack.webmasher.com/2007/11/rss-killer-feature-replies-via-in-reply.html #indieweb
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barnabywalters !tell eschnou looks like my pingback did get through, but isn’t popping up as a reply — had a look through pingbackController and not sure why
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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