2013-04-22 UTC
# 00:09 tantek so how about put h-entry on the <body> ? I mean, it's a permalink page right?
# 00:09 tantek the h-entry *is* the primary thing of the page
# 00:10 aaronpk that would be a solution. my question then is will things in the sidebar clutter up the h-entry?
# 00:10 tantek nothing appears in the microformat except what you mark-up as properties
# 00:10 aaronpk i mean most things in the sidebar are about the post anyway, but I do have the little "*ing" section
# 00:10 tantek (oh and the implied stuff, which won't happen if you markup the p-name explicitly)
# 00:14 tantek also - parsing from Hn tags is a bit misguided
# 00:14 aaronpk it's just that I started by adding markup for in-reply-to
# 00:15 tantek so the question of what is the p-name of a note I should answer as an FAQ
# 00:15 tantek I mean, you could have looked at my note markup on tantek.com as an example ;)
# 00:15 tantek but yes, you guys independently rederived it above
# 00:15 aaronpk and then added mf2 to everything, then realized I need to make the body tag be the h-entry, then the whole geo discussion
# 00:16 aaronpk oh yea, didn't think to look at your site, because I was originally looking for examples of 'in-reply-to' usage
# 00:16 tantek but then I went down a design/presentation rabbithole
# 00:16 tantek after I realized that to display replies properly I had to redesign what a note/post building block looked like
# 00:17 aaronpk wish I was around another day here, would be fun to sketch some of this out with you!
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# 04:52 bretolius a theoretical short-name system that could be used as a citation to a document in another document, and simply having the citation means you could address the exact document assuming its still available
# 04:54 bretolius i guess the key concept being that the irrevocable shortnames are apart of some kind of ditributed hash tree
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# 09:15 xtof eschnou : if you're available 2013-05-03 I'd be happy to introduce an #indieweb workshop during BarcampOuiShareFest (collaborative economy in Europe) Doc Searls will be there to speak about VRM and identity More info to come on http://barcamp.org/BarcampOuiShareFest
# 09:58 tommorris ^ indiewebsters may enjoy this: a Tumblr that has a daily screenshot from Geocities. queued up one per day until 2027.
# 09:59 tommorris My first Geocities site had two Java applets on it. Good times.
# 10:00 barnabywalters yay! my first site almost had a 6 minute animated GIF on, but alas it got scrambled in the upload and I was prevented from releasing that particular cultural wonder onto the internet
# 10:00 barnabywalters actually, this December is the 10th anniversary of my first site — I have a blog post about it in progress
# 10:01 tommorris my first webpage wasn't even on Geocities. it was hosted as a subdir on a server at my dad's then employer
# 10:02 barnabywalters wow, blurry menus! I’ve looked and looked for my first site but can’t find it either
# 10:04 tommorris I'm proud to say that the first page I wrote was HTML-in-a-text-editor. because then there weren't really any authoring tools like FrontPage
# 10:05 barnabywalters first HTML element I ever wrote was <marquee>, in frontpage :) But I couldn’t get it to work because I didn’t know what slash to use and where it went
# 10:06 tommorris oh btw, I'm thinking about trying to organise a web history editathon. get a bunch of people together in London and online to try and edit Wikipedia to improve coverage of web history
# 10:06 tommorris over the weekend, I was working on the 'List of Yahoo! services' article and the 'Fire Eagle' article. prompted by the imminent closure of upcoming.org
# 10:06 tommorris there's plenty of sources online, and I could probably find a venue in London
# 10:08 barnabywalters sounds like the kind of thing adactio might be interested in helping out with?
# 10:10 tommorris I've used archive.is links to replace links on Wikipedia to pinkpaper.co.uk after that shut down.
# 10:10 barnabywalters useful, sure, but where is the content hosted, and the owner seems a little overconfident
# 10:11 tommorris Yeah, it'd be nice if they could have some backup plans in place. Internet Archive as a potential backup for instance
# 10:11 tommorris syndicate the stuff from archive.is to archive.org - peering agreements
# 10:13 tommorris just taking down some "old content" means that citations we are using for fairly trivial things break... for no actual benefit.
# 10:14 barnabywalters ah, cool — that is addressing some of the same use cases as indieweb link previews
# 10:15 tommorris there's some discussion about whether Wikimedia UK should chuck them some cash.
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# 18:49 tantek have to admit there have been a few times where I've wanted to thread a reply of mine into multiple other posts by other people
# 18:49 tantek one big challenge - how do you show the context of the other notes on your reply permalink page?
# 18:50 tantek then I see a thread of conversation that at least makes sense
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# 19:01 tantek "if world domination is your goal, think twice before offloading every scrap of you."
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# 19:06 aaronpk tantek: yes showoing the context of replies is currently a challenge i'm thinking about
# 19:08 tantek for single posts it seems fairly straightforward to just copy Twitter's design
# 19:09 aaronpk also thinking about the storage side though, since i don't have a database like I'd normally have
# 19:11 eschnou tantek, aaronpk I realized with xtof comment on my post that there are two kind of pingbacks: replies and mentions, and it is not easy to distinguish them. One creates a conversation, the other is just a reference within another conversation.
# 19:11 eschnou both would benefit a different treatment.
# 19:11 tantek eschnou - this distinction is actually covered in the post footers page on the wiki :)
# 19:12 tantek there are replies/comments, and then there are mentions/referencing-articles
# 19:12 eschnou and how do you distinguish them ? a different rel ? I haven't seen that documented/used.
# 19:12 tantek eschnou - the way you distinguish them is whether the comment/reply permalink page uses in-reply-to or not
# 19:13 eschnou ok, so I could treat 'in-reply-to' as replies and show them 'twitter style' like I did, and leave the others as 'mentions' displayed somewhere else.
# 19:16 eschnou another issue I faced was to decide what to show: name, summary or content. So far I opted for showing only the title (marked by summary).
# 19:16 tantek "If the hyperlink in the h-entry to the webmention target has in-reply-to markup, display the h-entry (summary/content abbreviated as necessary) in a "Comments" section, perhaps in the post footer."
# 19:16 eschnou I'm a dev... I don't read the manual :-)
# 19:16 tantek "Otherwise if the hyperlink to the original post lacks in-reply-to markup, then add it to a "Related Articles" or "Mentions" section, again in the post footer"
# 19:17 tantek eschnou - it's ok that's why it's on the wiki, so we can quickly share URL answers to such questions
# 19:17 eschnou tantek, thanks for all the efforts !
# 19:17 tantek eschnou - showing "only the title" makes no sense. no commenting systems work like that.
# 19:18 eschnou assuming we have a twitter like conversation, what is a 'reply' marked up with ?
# 19:19 tantek hopefully with a p-author h-card with p-name and u-photo and u-url for the avatar link/image/alt
# 19:19 tantek and then with a p-content/e-content for the comment contents
# 19:19 tantek then you can display that *just like a _normal_ blog comment*
# 19:20 tantek indieweb comments should look at least as good as normal/local blog comments
# 19:20 tantek the bizarre pingback title+double-ellipsed-summary is totally broken and should never be displayed
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# 19:20 tantek eschnou - btw do you have documentation anywhere of how and when Storytlr parses h-entry for comments etc.?
# 19:21 eschnou well, the h-entry contains lots of stuff custom to the site it comes from, this leads to impossible to style html. This is why I just display the summary. I'm even planning to strip tags for security/presentation reasons.
# 19:21 tantek eschnou - you can already do that per the spec by taking the p-content if it's there or the e-content innertext
# 19:21 tantek no need to do anything custom/weird like stripping
# 19:23 eschnou Hacky, but it does the trick.
# 19:24 eschnou pâ»content ? It is e-content in mf2 doc and usually full of inner tags.
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# 19:26 eschnou moving the 'mentions' to another section is a next step.
# 19:26 tantek eschnou - once you've parsed the e-content, you can further parse it just for it's innertext if you want
# 19:28 eschnou For now I try to continuously adapt to what I receive and do my best to make it 'look good', I guess that the more we are to do this, and the better we'll converge on common ways to do it.
# 19:29 tantek eschnou - indeed. At some point we'll have a well defined "how to parse comments from webmentions" spec :)
# 19:33 tantek Are you going to separate xtof_fr's reply into a mentions section?
# 19:33 tantek also - I would suggest listing all replies/comments in *one* section, time ordered
# 19:33 tantek hopefully that will force the issue to similar presentation between/among the two
# 19:34 tantek I noticed they're already really close! (indieweb vs. local comments)
# 19:34 tantek aaronpk - isn't that awesome? and note how they're styled like the Comments icons down below too
# 19:35 tantek I think eschnou is closest to producing a beautifully integrated comments section
# 19:35 tantek with both indieweb and local comments looking consistent and reading very naturally.
# 19:35 eschnou aaronpk, the problem is I won't be able to style individual content of each mention when this gets popular :-) hence why I could like to strip tags of content.
# 19:35 tantek the only clue that there's a difference being the "… ago" links to the indieweb permalinks
# 19:36 aaronpk i'm debating continuing to publish that markup as well
# 19:36 eschnou tantek, yes, all comments time ordered will be awesome, and will enable a true distributed conversation, where I can reply to aaronpk reply on my site and then he gets a pingback, etc...
# 19:36 tantek eschnou - you could still look for / allow / style h-cards in notes
# 19:38 aaronpk also i'm encountering an issue deciding what values to include in the little h-cards, in terms of: domain name, full name, nickname (?)
# 19:39 tantek isn't it just: <a class="h-card" href="homepage"><img src="avatar" alt="full name"/></a> ?
# 19:39 aaronpk yes, beacuse sometimes the "@" before a username is part of the sentence, and i;m not displaying the "@" right now cause i'm showing full name
# 19:40 aaronpk i write @username and it gets transformed, but what exactly does the username mean when you're actually referencing someone by domain name
# 19:40 eschnou aaronpk, totaly agree on the @, I've decided to keep them, they are part of the content and have a meaning.
# 19:41 eschnou aaronpk, easier for me since I reference only domains and don't do this twitter translation.
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# 19:44 tantek aaronpk - you can actually represent all that if you want too:
# 19:46 tantek <a class="h-card" href="site"><object data="photo"><abbr title="full name"><span class="p-nickname">@name</span></abbr></object></a>
# 19:46 tantek you may need to add "type=image/jpg" to the <object>
# 19:46 aaronpk so i can decide what to display by putting it inside the tag vs in the title attribute?
# 19:47 aaronpk that still means I have to decide what to display
# 19:47 tantek for parsing purposes, the title of the abbr wins
# 19:47 tantek (when parsing an abbr element directly for p-* properties)
# 19:47 aaronpk also what is a nickname and how is that determined?
# 19:48 tantek so it's fine to use nickname to markup usernames
# 19:48 tantek (and people do respond to being called them in person I've found)
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# 19:54 tommorris tantek: numerous friends of mine moan when I call them by their online nicks.
# 19:54 tommorris especially some of the Wikipedians. but that's because they do have some very silly usernames.
# 19:55 tommorris Other hilarious usernames have included: "Can't sleep, clown will eat me" and "Physics is all gnomes".
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# 20:29 eschnou now I need to filter out the one which are not replies but just mentions and put them in another section.
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# 20:43 barnabywalters when you reply to comments, are they first-class notes or old-style comments?
# 20:45 eschnou "old-style" comments
# 20:46 eschnou well, it will cause me a problem when I mention someone in a comment and send a pingback,
# 20:47 eschnou if they parse the content, how do they know where to look for the comment vs the h-entry...
# 20:47 eschnou should I add # fragment to the url to point them to that specific section ?
# 20:47 eschnou fragment id uri ? what is that ?
# 20:49 aaronpk browsers don't send the fragment in the request, but this isn't happening in a browser
# 20:51 eschnou so, pingback + uri with fragment to point to the comment may be the solution..
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# 20:57 eschnou aaronpk, could yo please check if you did get the pingback I just sent as a reply to your reply ?
# 20:57 aaronpk eschnou: just got a pingback from "http://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html#comment_4703"
# 20:58 eschnou I guess I don't have proper annotation in the page for the comments, but it is getting there.
# 20:59 barnabywalters eschnou: I had a poke through your pingback µf parsing source — I’d be interested to hear your reasoning for using the first h-card you find instead of h-entry -> author?
# 21:00 eschnou barnabywalters, my initial focus/usecase is always storytlr<>storytlr communication, and in this case there is no author hcard within the entry, only one at the page level.
# 21:01 eschnou but then when federating with others, I adapt
# 21:01 eschnou always happy to get feedback and evolve things.
# 21:01 barnabywalters eschnou: just trying to fix my pingback implementation so I can join in the conversation :)
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# 21:08 barnabywalters I seem to be successfully receiving pingbacks from eschnou, but not from my test wordpress.com blog
# 21:09 eschnou barnabywalters, I had issues testing from wordpress.com, pingback not very reliables.
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# 21:34 eschnou I'm off for the day, it was a fun evening and I really enjoy the result. Hopefully I get some more time in the next days to continue. Cheers all !
# 21:36 eschnou Loqi, barnabywalters thx, see you tomorrow, send me a pingback when you are done :-)
# 21:36 barnabywalters eschnou: onto it right now :) Found+fixed the bug, just writing tests then I’ll deploy
# 21:38 eschnou awesome ! if you ping me and it works, you should see it immediately as a comment or on the mention page. If not, then w'll have to debug tomorrow.
# 21:39 tantek eschnou - yes, comment follow-ups should get their own permalink (without #) for better webmention/pingback interop
# 21:39 tantek we should avoid depending on fragments at the server for anything
# 21:41 tantek I think you're the first to be displaying indieweb comments automatically on your posts!
# 21:42 barnabywalters at the very least, the first to give them equal (if not more) importance than native comments
# 21:42 tantek barnabywalters - that too - but I don't know of anyone else displaying indieweb comments automatically at all
# 21:42 tantek note that displaying ugly pingbacks doesn't count
# 21:43 tantek since they're displayed as ugly pingbacks rather than comments
# 21:46 tantek eschnou - did you get your indiewebcamp.com signing-in to work with your domain?
# 21:57 tantek so next up, let's see who's going to get integrated automatically displayed indieweb comments received via *webmention* rather than pingback. :)
# 22:01 barnabywalters oh poo, I got endpoint detection of eschnou’s site working, but when I tried to send a pingback I got a 500 error :(
# 22:02 barnabywalters !tell eschnou I got endpoint detection working but then a 500 error when trying to ping you :( any ideas?
# 22:02 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 22:05 barnabywalters aaronpk: I just tried to send a couple of pingbacks to you and got a “no link to this page” error for indiewebcamp.com — looking at my logs it seems that somewhere a redirect is being followed and it’s going to /Main_page
# 22:05 tantek barnabywalters - are you directly sending a pingback, or are you using pingback.me as a webmention-to-pingback proxy?
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# 22:33 barnabywalters !tell eschnou looks like my pingback did get through, but isn’t popping up as a reply — had a look through pingbackController and not sure why
# 22:33 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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