#indiewebcamp 2013-05-12

2013-05-12 UTC
b0bg0d, tantek, termie and tantek_ joined the channel
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tantek_ greetings aaronpk
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tantek_ just saw this
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tantek_ about the h-card and and eschnou
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tantek !tell tommorris via adactio, thought you'd appreciate this: http://idontwantyourfuckingapp.tumblr.com/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk - I see the problem now
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tantek I think this is because eschnou's pingback/comment parsing code is just grabbing the first hCard on the comment permalink, instead of using the p-author h-card
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tantek I vaguely remember discussing this in IRC a while ago when he first got it working
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tantek aaronpk - are you able to get h-entry p-author h-card information from my posts yet?
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/blog/salmon-le-nouvel-agregateur-du-web-social-de/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Posterous-fr (pingback)
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eschnou !tell tantek if/when you are around, can you send me again the link to the brainstorm on marking up comments? I 'm lost in the wiki :-)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 46 minutes ago: I just launched the microformats parser on http://pin13.net/ and it's set to auto-pull new code from master every hour, should be useful for testing I think :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: oh great! it took me a while to figure out which box it was because the amazon link dragging thing interferes with it
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Loqi tommorris__: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 42 minutes ago: via adactio, thought you'd appreciate this: http://idontwantyourfuckingapp.tumblr.com/
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Loqi tantek: eschnou left you a message 6 hours, 56 minutes ago: if/when you are around, can you send me again the link to the brainstorm on marking up comments? I 'm lost in the wiki :-)
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tantek yeah I think we've figured out enough about comments and written them up that it would help to now organize the text a bit better
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tantek aaronpk, maybe we can do during the workshop today
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tantek just like last time we came up with how to reorganize/improve the Getting Started page
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tantek btw aaronpk, barnabywalters, tommorris, I think I came up with a potentially useful semantic distinction between a "reply" and "comments" that may actually help with discussions
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tantek how's this:
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tantek a reply is a type of post that you put on your own site that is a response to another post.
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tantek comments are the aggregation of replies to a post on the post itself
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tantek I've been wanting to distinguish "comment post" and "comments section on a post" for a while, and it seems quick and easy (and reasonably memorable) to just call them "reply" and "comments" respectively
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barnabywalters tantek: that works
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tantek thoughts? is that too specific, too refining? what's your gut reaction to that distinction?
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barnabywalters only problem I can think of is what then does ”comment” mean — the display of a reply within a comments section?
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tantek yes!
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tantek so a reply is a "comment" within the context of the original post
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tantek what led me to this is that i realized that when people (us, others) use the term "comment", or "comments" it pretty much always means something which is on the page of the post that it's commenting about.
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tantek whereas Twitter has successfully introduced the concept of @-reply tweets that have their own permalink on their own page! (I don't know anybody who did that before)
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tantek The definitional distinctions I've proposed above are based on these two clusters of uses of the terms in the wild.
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tantek Which should make the definitional distinctions easier to adopt (if people are already using the words mostly like that anyway)
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tantek is re-organizing the comments-presentation page now that we have more experience
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tommorris tantek: I'll try and find some time to comment on indieweb stuff soon. I've had a week from hell at work, and spent Saturday drinking myself into oblivion before dancing the night away in a sleazy gay bar with a guy in an info.cern.ch t-shirt. Priorities. ;)
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tantek tommorris - that sounds awesome
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tommorris Indeed. It had the diagram from timbl's original web paper on the front of the t-shirt and "Vague but exciting" on the back.
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barnabywalters hah, amazing :)
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tommorris I want one, but apparently you can only buy them at CERN
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tommorris I've got one of these - https://secure.flickr.com/photos/leobard/39230921/ - somewhere.
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tantek tommorris - when I saw that shirt I thought it was one of the saddest disconnects from representing real world information that I'd ever seen.
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tantek also, the framing of the (apparently suburban) house and car as being essential is a sad social commentary.
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tantek nevermind the implied heteronormative pairing
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+785) "re-organize, move brainstorm to a how-to now that we have verification that some of it works well" (view diff)
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tantek ok there we go, that's a good enough clean-up for now
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tommorris tantek: I dunno. Dull suburban heteronormativity and angle brackets - an ironic commentary.
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tommorris Anyway. ;)
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tantek !tell eschnou the link you're looking for I think is how to retrieve/parse comments and I just cleaned up this page a bunch to hopefully make it clearer: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek barnabywalters, tommorris, would appreciate your review of my rewrite of http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation
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tantek does it a) make sense, b) seem like something you could (or want to) implement?
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tantek is still working on just implementing reply posts in the first place, nevermind displaying comments sections of others replies
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tantek It does feel a bit odd to be designing this stuff way ahead of where my own implementation is. Hopefully it's a sensible vision.
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tantek tommorris - did you get your @-replies to tweets working on your own site?
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tantek per: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+22) "/* POSSE Replies to Tweets */ working on it" (view diff)
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@t implementing POSSE replies to Tweets in @Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets (ttk.me t4Px1)
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tantek well that seemed to work on my test account, let's see if it works for real
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tantek woohoo! it works!
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tantek posted my first reply post with proper POSSE to Twitter with reply threading.
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tantek https://twitter.com/t/status/333649785062060034
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@t @jlsuttles thanks! Hope you enjoyed it!
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tantek of course I made it a multi-reply just to give aaronpk another real world example ;)
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tantek but Twitter has no way of saying this tweet is in reply to multiple other tweets
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pdurbin yeah, it's always in reply to a certain tweet. twitter is terrible for conversation
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+188) "/* POSSE Replies to Tweets */ now implemented in Falcon / tantek.com" (view diff)
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pdurbin it's why https://storify.com exists
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tantek pdurbin, it seems to me that you should be able to set an in-reply-to-status-id for every person you @-mention in your tweet so you can thread to all their tweets simultaneously
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Loqi eschnou: tantek left you a message 2 hours ago: the link you're looking for I think is how to retrieve/parse comments and I just cleaned up this page a bunch to hopefully make it clearer: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1809) "implemented in-reply-to-status-id support in POSSE'd notes to Twitter, capture what to work on next (rel-syndication, rel-in-reply-to markup and presentation), re-order sections a bit more sensibly: about, working-on, technical details" (view diff)
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eschnou tantek, no, I'm looking for a brainstorm you did with barnaby on the markup to add to comments in a h-entry. There was an empty anchor I was wondering about and you completed the faq about it. Where was that ?
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tantek oh *that*
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eschnou :-)
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tantek I thought you were trying to fix the bug where you parsed the wrong h-card from aaronpk's comment on your comment
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tantek (your code apparently just parsed the first h-card on the page, rather than parsing the h-card set as the p-author of the h-entry of the page)
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tantek the empty anchor was for u-in-reply-to
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eschnou tantek, haa sorry, that one is now fixed, and I follow the documented process: author first, then fallback to h-card within the entry then global hcard.
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tantek close
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tantek author h-card within the entry, then rel-author
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tantek what do you mean by "global hcard"?
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eschnou page-level, not within an entry.
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eschnou like on eschnou.com
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tantek I suppose that could be ok - but only *after* looking explicitly for the p-author of the h-entry, and then the first rel-author on the page
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eschnou I now take care of the p-author, I need to figure out the rel-author part.
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tantek re: empty anchor - empty span is fine too: <span class="u-in-reply-to"></span>
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tantek eschnou - yeah, barnabywalters is adding support for rel-parsing to phpmf2
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tantek so that might make rel-author easier - so you can just check the parse for rel-authors
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tantek the parsed JSON that is
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tantek JSON output
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eschnou tantek, ha, good to know, then I'll wait/help on that part and not recode it myself.
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tantek I figured :)
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tantek eschnou - I vaguely recall that brainstorm with barnabywalters re: markup
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tantek oh it was on microformats
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eschnou tantek, yes, there were new comments related microformats, and indeed, I've probably been looking on the wrong site :-)
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+525) "/* How to */ display vs. markup" (view diff)
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tantek eschnou - I forgot to link them together :)
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eschnou got it: http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming#Use_case_for_same_page_u-in-reply-to
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+195) "/* How to markup */ provide empty anchor option, link to why" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+2) "/* How to markup */ ws" (view diff)
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eschnou tantek, on another topic: I want to start implementing feed subscription within storytlr, so that I can easily subscribe to other sites within my UI and consume content there. But I wonder:
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tantek eschnou - ok I've linked it up so hopefully it's more discoverable: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_markup
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tantek yes! indie aggregation :)
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eschnou Atom+ActivityStreams+PuSH ?
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tantek nah - just h-entry + PuSH
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tantek it gets more and more clumsy to figure out how to duplicate everything in Atom+ActivityStreams XML
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eschnou exactly
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tantek there's no future there
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tantek publish Atom+ActivityStreams XML only for backward compat with existing systems that are unlikely to change
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eschnou any known implementation of h-entry + PuSH ? :-)
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tantek otherwise we should be pursuing microformats+PuSH
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tantek well I and others publish
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tantek no one I know consumes it yet
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eschnou publish h-entries ?
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tantek though you're already obviously consuming h-entries
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eschnou I do publish, but so far it is atom/as
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tantek Storytlr does that for comments already
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tantek consumes h-entries
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tantek as does p3k for extracting the context of a post that it's replying to
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tantek so start with just polling h-entry content for now
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tantek that should be enough to start developing the UI of your indie reader
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tantek aggregator
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eschnou well, PuSH enables cool realtime federated demos :-)
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tantek and we can later figure out how to make PuSH work directly with microformatted pages
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tantek sure
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tantek but you do need to build your UI first
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eschnou sure
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tantek and that's the harder part (the UI)
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tantek so I'd put time and creative energy there
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tantek before worrying about how to extend PuSH accordingly
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tantek the nice UI is makes a federated demo compelling
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tantek is *what makes
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tantek once you've got that, then everyone you're consuming will have more incentive to support PuSH+microformats and then we'll figure out and you can consume it
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eschnou makes sense
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eschnou from what I can read, PuSH is strongly coupled to Atom
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eschnou so we'll have to figure out something then.
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tantek eschnou - it's not really
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tantek it's strongly coupled to using URLs
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tantek the data type at those URLs just happens to be Atom for most consumers
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tantek but it can be RSS or HTML
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tantek so we just have to specify what to do with HTML URLs
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tantek and then implement it
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tantek don't worry about it - it's totally solvable once we get there
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eschnou tantek, well, existing implementation assume it is atom, hence: unauthenticated ping -> hub fetches atom, so indeed we can reuse the concepts, but not existing hubs without modifying them.
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eschnou again, not a fundamental issue
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eschnou ok then, I'll give a try to polling + h-feed/h-entries
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tantek awesome
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tantek and then yes, we'll write/update our own hubs
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tantek I think the Google test hub is open source
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tantek so we can just mod it and redeploy another one on appengine
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tantek or get Brett Slatkin to help us do so :)
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eschnou well, if he could just spend half a day adding proper mft markup to google+ that would be a good start :-)
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eschnou tantek, another design choice i have is the following: tightly coupled within storytlr, or an independent tool that anyone else could use, with web-actions to enable interactions.
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eschnou tantek, I guess I'll try to do both, integrate within storytlr while having code that can be re-used for a more standalone version.
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tantek eschnou - as long as its open source, I'd say build it as quickly as possible just so you can experiment with and iterate on the UI quickly
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tantek "an independent tool that anyone else could use, with web-actions to enable interactions" would certainly be awesome, but not more awesome than just getting a UI working on your site that you can play with and improve
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tantek re: G+, Brett doesn't even work on it at all, and the folks that do don't seem to be spending much time on adding any standards support to it. It's been kind of a disappointment frankly.
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eschnou tantek, Google IO is next week... are you attending ?
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tantek I am actually, for the first time.
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tantek are you?
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eschnou great! so you can do a bit of lobbying :-) No, unfortunately not this year. Been there twice, great event. Even got interviewed by Scoble one year, was about onesocialweb and federation in general.
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tantek ah interesting, perhaps I'll look for Scoble
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tantek oh I plan to (do a bit of lobbying)
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tantek brainstorming some google wish-list posts to post before the conference starts on Wednesday
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eschnou great idea!
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tantek eschnou - do you post replies to tweets on your own site?
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tantek e.g. like this reply: https://twitter.com/eschnou/status/332936461462667265
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@eschnou @Lint_ Non, http://t.co/EDMfcuGbrl, rue Neuvice.
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tantek did you post that to your own site first and POSSE the reply to Twitter, or did you only use Twitter?
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eschnou tantek, no, I don't do this posse/reply magic like you guys :-) I do a mix of POSSE and PESOS. In this case, the reply is syndicated back on my site but hidden from my timeline (I see it when logged in my site).
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+74) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek oh you PESOS your @-replies from Twitter back to your site?
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eschnou yes, I PESOS a lot in fact. All the youtube/vimeo
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eschnou soundcloud etc.. I like on their site are syndicated back on my stream.
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eschnou So, the flow is this: I like on Vimeo, it is syndicated on my storytlr, and storytlr tweets it.
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eschnou so, it is pesos from vimeo to storytlr and then pose from storytlr to twitter
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tantek.com edited /comment (+160) "/* POSSE a comment */ link up with Twitter details" (view diff)
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eschnou As for twitter, I do a mix. My own content is published from storytlr, unless I'm tweeting from my mobile then I use their app. And replies are usually sent from their client. But then everything is syndicated back on my site.
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tantek.com edited /multiple-reply (+408) "add my example of a multiple-reply, which I just happened to do on my first properly POSSE-threaded reply post!" (view diff)
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tantek so you PESOS your likes and @-replies
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tantek and then POSSE your likes as notes
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tantek interesting
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tantek is that something built into Storytlr or is it custom to eschnou.com?
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tantek I've considered the possibility of doing a PESOS/POSSE loop
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eschnou tantek, built in storytlr, eschnou.com is a vanilla deployment of storytlr
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tantek e.g. use Twitter client to post a tweet, have your server immediately notice it, PESOS it onto your own server, then POSSE *that* back twitter and immediately delete the first tweet copy
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eschnou tantek, well, I like to convenience of just liking a video/photo/etc somewhere and automatically get it on my site and then push a tweet linking back to my site so people comment there.
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tantek so there is a moment (seconds?) where there is a tweet without a permashortlink back to your original, but then your server "corrects" that by deleting it and replacing it.
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tantek just a thought - could confuse realtime apps which pull both items down in realtime
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eschnou tantek, the issue will be a lot of duplicates for clients which won't support the delete
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tantek though if they're also listening to Twitter's delete messages (as clients are supposed to), then the first tweet would disappear pretty quickly - not many (anybody?) would see it.
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eschnou yes, that may be the issue
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tantek could be minor enough to be ignorable
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tantek people might not even notice
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tantek except to see the content subtly change (the permashortlink suddenly shows up)
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tantek (on Twitter)
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tantek.com edited /Storytlr (+237) "add some details of PESOS implementation per IRC conversation" (view diff)
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tantek eschnou - thanks for the additional details on Storytlr, good to understand what you're focusing on
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tantek still can't believe I'm only the 3rd person to POSSE Replies to Tweets: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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tantek tommorris - for sure I thought you were going to beat me to that one ;)
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tantek of course the challenge with implementing POSSE Replies to Tweets is that it's a bit silo-preferential, and now the pressure is on to implement proper indieweb-to-indieweb replies (with POSSE Replies to Twitter of syndicated copies of course)
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tantek hence explicitly added as such: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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eschnou tantek, yes! :-)
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tantek eschnou - I like being able to @-reply directly from my site - that's why I do that instead of doing it from Twitter.
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tantek (and then PESOSing it in as you do with @-replies in Storytlr)
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tantek good news is that I think phpmf2 can finally read/parse the h-entry p-author h-card markup in my post permalinks thanks to Barnaby fixing a bunch of issues :)
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eschnou tantek, I think it makes sense. I'm just late to the party :-) And for now my focus is really more the storytlr/indieweb federation, so we can just forget about the silos.
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tantek eschnou - that's totally reasonable :)
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eschnou tantek, so you are sending pingbacks ?
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eschnou or is it webmentions ?
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tantek that's part of the beauty of the #indiewebcamp community and all our implementations, we can each focus and prioritize whatever is our own personal implementation urgency
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tantek eschnou - neither yet
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tantek I'm implementing the "easy" stuff first - e.g. markup and presentational updates
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eschnou well, you can always pingback manually, that's how I'm testing, fairly easy with curl :-)
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tantek sure, but that seems like cheating ;)
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tantek I want to add native webmention sending support to Falcon
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tantek then the only missing piece will be webmention -> pingback proxy (that I think aaronpk is working on adding to pingback.me )
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tantek eschnou - does Storytlr support receiving native webmentions?
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tantek or only pingback?
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eschnou tantek, only pingback at the moment
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tantek consider it a feature request :)
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eschnou tantek, added :-) https://github.com/storytlr/storytlr/issues/75
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tantek hahaha I just saw the meme that BarnabyWalters made regarding the fixes he had to make in response to my issue comments: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/13#issuecomment-17423354
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Loqi ahahahaha
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@paulbooker RT @t: implementing POSSE replies to Tweets in @Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets (ttk.me t4Px1)
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aaronpk wow! lots of activity this morning!
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aaronpk huh... twitter decided to t.co my profile link today
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pdurbin thought they t.co'd everything
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aaronpk some peoples' twitter profile URLs aren't
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@t for example
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