2013-05-21 UTC
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# 00:33 tantek really hope we don't have to have that conversation again - felt like a poor use of time # 00:51 pdurbin misses sandeepshetty already. at least reidab is still around :) # 00:54 reidab yep, still here b0bg0d joined the channel
# 01:36 Loqi you're not using @wordpress (.org) #ownyourdata #reme… b0bg0d joined the channel
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# 05:22 tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1088) "/* Working On */ add Why? points/explanations for each thing, hopefully help with documenting them as either Getting Started steps or IndieMark objectives, or both" (
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# 15:20 tantek barnabywalters, tommorris, as fellow implementers who've already implemented some of this stuff, I'd appreciate your review/opinion of the format I've taken with documenting reasons *Why?* for each of the next things I have listed as working on for Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On # 15:21 tantek I figure if I'm able to explicitly document the Why of each feature, then that will help with documenting reasoning for these steps when we add them to things like Getting Started and/or IndieMark. jedahan joined the channel
# 15:22 barnabywalters tantek: works for me — I really like this style of documentation/todo list you and aaronpk and building for your projects # 15:22 tantek I feel like by documenting such whys when in the middle of implementation helps document more "real world" reasons than if/when documenting it as something others should do. I think the personal perspective helps there. # 15:23 tantek And I'm trying to capture that personal perspective because once you've implemented it, it disappears. # 15:26 tantek the original Twitter and Dodgeball implementations were "dumb apps" that worked purely with txt message commands # 15:26 tantek the notion of a simple command line UI to your "apps" (txting is just one particular pipe) is quite powerful. you could also adapt it to 2-way pagers with email for example. # 15:27 tommorris I may implement Twilio into Ferocity so I can text posts in # 15:27 tantek tommorris - please do - I'm sure they'd love to see an indieweb posting demo via txting via Twilio # 15:27 tommorris Twilio just uses web hooks - so every time you get a message sent to your number, it sends an HTTP POST message to a specified endpoint # 15:27 tommorris you can send a response by having it respond with some fairly simple XML # 15:28 tommorris (with the message encoded in UTF-8 per all the usual rules of XML) # 15:28 barnabywalters it’s also worth considering that, once you can email content to your website, every iOS and most mac apps have basic web actions built in # 15:28 tommorris the nice thing about SMS though: it works in places where 3G don't # 15:28 tommorris if you are in another country, you can usually get SMS for a lot less than data roaming # 15:29 tantek (I've added the dumbstore apps as a see also) # 15:30 tantek tommorris - in some countries it's very hard to get data sim cards, e.g. France. whereas txt sim cards are more available. # 15:30 tantek had that problem just this past November in Lyon. # 15:31 tommorris yeah, I couldn't get a French SIM with data when I was last in Paris. # 15:31 tantek barnabywalters - I think Twilio supports *a lot* # 15:31 tommorris most UK mobile networks will let you roam abroad for a daily payment # 15:32 barnabywalters how would you handle authentication? purely based on phone number, or with a password, or some combination of the two? # 15:32 tommorris plus, there's a bit of security by obscurity - having your own phone number for Twilio # 15:32 jedahan I used it for my 'you can only play one time' YODO mario game :) # 15:32 tommorris you can store the authenticated phone numbers on your server # 15:33 barnabywalters tommorris: adding that to phone number based two-factor auth would be pretty cool too :) # 15:33 jedahan wonder how weird it would be to register a throwaway phone number from SMS... # 15:34 tommorris so you'd text in "auth [pre-authorized key]" and have a thing in your wallet with 10 pre-printed auth keys. eschnou joined the channel
# 15:35 barnabywalters tommorris: was thinking other way round (use code texted to phone number as second factor when logging into the site, then that number can be used to post notes) but that’d work too # 15:36 tommorris problem is if you don't have data, anything that requires you to hop on to the web breaks. # 15:36 tommorris use case of "arrive at airport, buy a local SIM, then get online to authenticate local phone number" fails if you don't have data # 15:36 tommorris ...and if you do have data, you don't really need SMS. ;) # 15:40 tantek yeah that's the one - "arrive at airport, buy a local SIM, then get online to authenticate local phone number" # 15:40 tantek tommorris - EXCEPT - many airports in France now have 15 min free wifi # 15:41 tantek so you *do* have a window of opportunity to briefly use wifi/data to authenticate a new SIM/phone #. # 15:41 tommorris although there's still problems with that - sometimes local wifi authentication portals don't speak the same language as you. # 15:42 tantek tommorris - view source - usually you can speak that language and figure out the form ;) # 15:43 tantek I mean, don't we expect everyone here to be able to read/understand the native language of our Matrix? # 15:45 tantek tommorris - some of this stuff is *only* documented on the microformats wiki # 15:46 tommorris I'm sure some of Dodgeball's UI is documented in Chris Messina's Flickr stream. most things are. ;) # 15:50 tantek tommorris - Chris Messina did an amazing job of documenting all these picoformats/microsyntaxes on the microformats wiki in 2008 # 15:51 tantek I think we have the most comprehensive documentation of such syntaxes anywhere bnvk joined the channel
# 15:51 tommorris tantek: he's also got amazing screenshots on Flickr for loads of now dead web services. # 15:54 tommorris tantek: seems like a good idea - user stories and all that. ;) # 15:54 tommorris (a user story we had at work: "As tommorris, needs to not have to be woken up at 3am to run database queries" # 15:56 tommorris I think next on my to-do list is separating out checkins from posts. # 15:58 tommorris Foursquare lets you checkin without posting it (to Twitter, FB). I'd like to be able to routinely checkin without it being a 'post' # 15:58 tantek I think this kind of focus, user experience, actual real world user stories is part of what separates indiewebcamp from previous open/federated social web efforts # 15:58 tantek and I want to keep encouraging a culture here of practical user experience first # 15:59 tommorris tantek: the other thing is that it's agile in the sense of getting something up and iterating, rather than architecture-astronaut stuff # 15:59 tommorris get Hello World up. then turn it into a blog-type thing. then add features. # 15:59 tantek yeah - I'm trying to justify each step in terms of improved user experience somewhere # 15:59 tommorris rather than trying to build "OpenFacebook" in one fell swoop. # 15:59 tantek which then makes it easier to be motivated to take each step # 16:00 tantek tommorris - I think a checkin is just a post with location information # 16:00 tantek aaronpk and I discussed this in person a while ago # 16:01 tommorris yes, and no. so, the problem is I have a "Last location" thing on my site. # 16:02 tommorris but it might have been a week since I last did a checkin post because... I only do that when it's somewhere interesting # 16:02 tommorris but I don't want to check in from 'boring' places like my office or home, partly because of privacy # 16:02 tantek that sounds like a privacy need, not a need to not checkin # 16:02 tommorris I want to use my site to track my location, but not all of those should be posts or syndicated. # 16:03 tommorris so, the idea is I'd separate out the checkins from the posts. # 16:03 tantek for me they're just checkin posts with different levels of access # 16:04 tantek I've come up with 4 checkin access levels for myself # 16:05 tommorris the other part of it is I want to be able to "checkin" to off-the-grid. ;) # 16:06 tommorris which you could do on Fire Eagle - you could specifically say "forget where I am" b0bg0d joined the channel
# 16:06 tantek four levels: 1) myself only, personal logging. 2) passive friend access (i.e. they can see if they go to my site, but I'm not broadcasting to them on silos), 3) broadcast to friends (i.e. I POSSE out to Foursquare), 4) public # 16:08 tantek tommorris - I guess I don't understand why you'd draw that distinction, except for presentational reasons (i.e. the same reason aaronpk has separate streams of notes, articles, replies rather than a unified composite update stream) # 16:08 tantek whereas I prefer a composite stream on my homepage # 16:09 tommorris that's part of it. it's also because if I separate out location from "checkins", I can have more passive monitoring of myself # 16:09 tommorris like, I could have it so that when my phone is connected to my home wifi network, I'd auto checkin at home, which would update my site to remove the thing saying I'm wherever. # 16:09 tantek that separation is achieved by annotating whether the user chose an explicit venue or if it's just lat/long (with venue implied) # 16:10 tommorris it's more that I then get a loose coupling of location to posts # 16:10 tommorris I get to work. my server detects I've connected to it from my work IP. it geolocates me to my office. my posts then auto-geolocate to the office # 16:11 tommorris the best way to make that work IMHO is to decouple the location layer from the posts layer. # 16:12 tommorris I'll sketch my thoughts out in my notebook a bit more on that though. ;) # 16:14 tantek I see checkins as always an explicit user action - and the meaning contained in the user taking that explicit action # 16:14 tantek the implied location based stuff is cool - but I don't consider those checkins # 16:15 tantek I think we may be talking about different use cases # 16:15 tommorris basically what I'm getting at is I want my own personal FireEagle running on tommorris.org # 16:15 tommorris my server should be able to work out where I am with some confidence value most of the time # 16:15 tantek I'm not sure about the passive location based use-cases. Even with FireEagle's ambiguity feature. Google Latitude etc. I think there are usability/creepiness problems there we haven't yet figured out. # 16:16 tantek I mean - feel free to explore that space and find out for us :) # 16:16 tommorris ...that's why I'm rather more keen on doing it on my own server than on Yahoo/Google/Facebook's # 16:16 tommorris and when I do checkin, having some passive location stuff is helpful # 16:16 tantek I for one am hesitant to do so - my intuition says it's more complex (from a user model / comfort level) than I want to try to figure out at the moment. # 16:17 tommorris if I text my server Dodgeball style with "@Starbucks", which Starbucks do I mean? # 16:17 tantek please document your experience so we can learn from it :) # 16:17 tantek tommorris - surprisingly that worked quite well back in the day # 16:17 tommorris ...if I know where I was a while back, I can make my explicit checkins more explicit # 16:18 tantek tommorris - the one your device is closest to, assuming it's sharing geolocation information with your server # 16:19 tantek yeah - for that I think we created venue specific shortnames # 16:19 tommorris you need a GPS for that... and GPS doesn't always work. try GPS in the financial district in your local metropolis. it'll fail because of all those tall buildings. # 16:20 tommorris when FireEagle was around, the primary way I checked into it was through things like MarcoPolo # 16:21 tommorris MarcoPolo would work out that if I was connected to my home wifi and using my computer, I was probably at home and so notified FireEagle. # 16:22 tommorris there's also a contextual thing someone has made for Android too # 16:23 tommorris what I really want is for my computer to work out that when it's connected to my expensive 3G connection that it absolutely must not download any software updates in the background because it's BLOODY EXPENSIVE # 16:24 tantek sounds like an ITCH you should capture on your wiki page ;) # 16:24 tommorris update Chrome or OS X all you like when I'm at home or work. # 16:35 tommorris set up first ControlPlane rule: work out that I'm in the office, and if I am turn Bluetooth on. spinnerin joined the channel
# 16:36 tommorris based on the wifi hotspots and the attachment of the rather nice monitor I have at work. # 16:45 tommorris if you keep ranting in #indiewebcamp, we'll just wikify it. morrocco_mole and tantek joined the channel
# 17:06 tantek tommorris: or we'll just point out that you're repeating yourself and cite a URL ;) eschnou, davidpk, b0bg0d, tantek and jaquecoustaeau joined the channel
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# 19:58 tommorris basically trying to flesh out the underlying logic of combining multiple sources of location information # 19:58 tantek I'm having trouble searching for events that happened just last year :( # 19:58 tantek did you see the prior art/work on that on the wiki? (combining multiple sources of location information) # 20:00 tantek aaronpk my intuition says some time in October 2012 # 20:04 tommorris so, I've basically split up my location "pulses" (they aren't really checkins) to be in four broad types: vague/area, precise, precise with venue metadata and non-geographical # 20:05 tommorris precise with venue metadata is a geo-coordinate plus a pointer to a venue # 20:05 tantek tommorris - you could call that "locality" if by vague/area you mean city granularity # 20:05 tommorris and non-geographical means something like "home" or "work" which are meaningful checkins but where the specifics of where they are aren't shared # 20:06 tommorris the vague/area ones can be used in doing things like venue searches # 20:07 tommorris working out the logic of it gets a bit harder, but I'm writing a load of test data into my system so I can work out what that means in practice. # 20:07 tommorris but the nice thing is with Twilio, I can use my geo-framework as a way of notifying myself about things over SMS. # 20:07 tommorris if I'm checked into London after 10pm, it'll SMS me details of when the last train home is that day. eschnou and andreypopp joined the channel
# 20:23 tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1450) "/* Indie Checkins */ note 2012-296 discussion with aaronpk, his resulting blog post, and key actionable realizations" (
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# 20:31 tantek.com edited /posts (+911) "/* Kinds of Posts */ Alternative perspective: instead of explicit post kinds, infer the post kind by what aspects/properties a post has. E.g.:" (
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# 20:54 aaronpk tantek: ohhhhhh that's what the party was... also at jillian's? # 20:59 aaronpk tommorris: yea I definitely want to make a distinction between "passive" location data vs "checkins" or "explicit" location jfranusic joined the channel
# 21:02 tommorris aaronpk: building a 'passive' location system to feed into the explicit one after a couple of months of eating my own dogfood is quite fun # 21:10 tantek aaronpk - doing a search for codestrong jillian's 2012 pulls up some tweets and a blog post about it # 21:13 tantek lastly - search your gmail for codestrong jillian's to see if you have an eventbrite link # 21:13 tantek that's only other kind of reference I can think to look for # 21:14 tantek another reason we need indieevents - can't trust organizers and silos to actually put the damn things at a permalink on the web # 21:15 tantek I do try to create a microformats wiki page for each event about or related to microformats # 21:15 jfranusic so, I'm almost ready to move my homepage back to my own server # 21:15 tantek so at least we have discoverable / searchable stuff there # 21:16 tantek jfranusic - welcome back and glad to hear it! # 21:16 jfranusic moving from PBwiki was kind of a big pain (tantek, remind me to give you the summary, for when you decide to move) # 21:16 tantek heh. jfranusic - I've been brainstorming on how to do flat file wiki storage # 21:16 jfranusic the most frustrating part is that PBwiki is sending 301's for these dumb URLs # 21:17 jfranusic so, my website is going to be stored in Git - I'm using Jekyll for now # 21:17 jfranusic Jekyll is one of those things that APPEARS complicated but is actually very simple # 21:18 jfranusic if you use only one service, then you're probably good for 5 years # 21:18 tantek jfranusic - please take notes on how you're setting up Jekyll static files at github # 21:18 tantek or wait - do you mean git natively on your server? (not github) # 21:18 jfranusic but if you're using a ton of services, then you're probably moving data around somewhere every 6 months to a year # 21:19 jfranusic well, if I do, I want to be able to switch back to my own server in 10 seconds spinnerin joined the channel
# 21:32 tantek when you're going to throw the DNS switch to your new host? # 21:33 jfranusic need to decide if I want my pages named joel.franusic.com/page-title.html or joel.franusic.com/page-title/ tilgovi_ joined the channel
# 21:34 tantek but for posts (anything on a primary time axis), I'd suggest putting them in directories by year # 21:35 jfranusic yeah, that's for my wiki pages, although the line between a wiki page and a "post" is kind of blurry # 21:35 jfranusic if I think of "posts" as "essays" then it's easier to decide what is what # 21:37 barnabywalters I currently have a script running fetching reply contexts for all my reply notes since october 2012 :) # 21:39 tantek barnabywalters - and I presume saving the entire HTML? # 21:39 tantek jfranusic - the distinction between wiki and post is interesting # 21:40 tantek barnaybwalters - I mean heck, if you're running a batch script, then ... # 21:40 aaronpk if I were to do it in batch I'd just hit all the URLs of all my replies # 21:41 aaronpk barnabywalters: the main use case for grabbing the whole html is to be able to re-parse it again later if the parser gets better # 21:41 barnabywalters aaronpk: I’ll certainly start archiving stuff going forward, and then maybe run the batch job again # 21:42 barnabywalters this run is heavily staggered so I don’t go over twitter’s API limit. When I run the converter for real I’ll just hit the twitter.com URLs and archive everything # 21:42 tantek wiki pages can start with a small stub that seems inconsequential # 21:42 tantek posts feel like they require some critical mass of self-completeness (even tweets/notes) # 21:43 tantek wiki pages reflect "the current state/thinking" # 21:43 tantek posts serve as an excellent way to snapshot, "here's what I've figured out as of this point in time" # 21:44 tantek wiki pages grow with a sense of broader completeness, splitting off sub-pages when needed. # 21:44 tantek posts are good for deep diving on a specific topic without feeling an obligation of providing the broader context # 21:45 tantek of course, it's useful to link to each from the other # 21:46 tantek a post has the connotation of an announcement as well, as in, hey I've figured this thing out that is worthy of review, read this (and optionally reply/comment on your own site) # 21:46 tantek whereas wiki pages are more about continuous incremental improvement # 21:48 tantek fascinating, members in #indiewebcamp have been slowly increasing and in the past week or so regularly bump above the number of folks in #microformats jedahan joined the channel
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# 23:57 aaronpk I want to wait until we have a few more people federating though jedahan joined the channel
tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+5958) "add antipattern: databases for storage, and define DBA tax - since we just spent some time on IRC about it" (view diff)
reidab yep, still here
@gazoombo @silentbicycle @jcoglan I want to fix this. Now toying with the idea of extending the ethos of indiewebcamp to infrastructure and services..
tantek barnabywalters, tommorris, as fellow implementers who've already implemented some of this stuff, I'd appreciate your review/opinion of the format I've taken with documenting reasons *Why?* for each of the next things I have listed as working on for Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
barnabywalters tantek: works for me — I really like this style of documentation/todo list you and aaronpk and building for your projects
pdurbin I use this and it's awesome: Just Hop On - SMS Text Messaging Service for MBTA Bus Route - http://justhopon.com
@jedahan @allisonburtch Also looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats from #indiewebcamp on freenode…they are into self-publishing :)
tommorris "Hide me!" is what they called it - https://secure.flickr.com/photos/ronin691/2825286824/
waterpigs.co.uk edited /monoculture (+331) "/* Disadvantages */ added notes about disagreement in open source monocultures" (view diff)
@xtof_fr @nicolas2fr á ton tour de POSSEr une note avec le KBIS ou ton RC :) http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter-fr#POSSEr_les_Notes_sur_Twitter
christopheducamp.com edited /Twitter-fr (+2) "[/* POSSEr des Notes vers Pseudoce Twitter */ typo]" (view diff)
@MyDataLabs @nicolas2fr conc. #IndieAuth @xtof_fr vous a répondu dans le #contexte #indieweb sur http://mydatalabs.com/Nicolas_Bermond#contexte
aaronpk huh... well i can add it to our event calendar :) https://events.geoloqi.com/events