#indiewebcamp 2013-05-22

2013-05-22 UTC
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tantek aaronpk - I'm still working on a Yoda-style or Morpheus-style reply debunking each and every false assertion / assumption that is made in that thread.
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tantek the key is to have short precise citations to pages on the indiewebcamp wiki that debunk each point
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tantek to make it clear just how little the folks in the thread have done their homework
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aaronpk hah!
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tantek that thread is so depressiong
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tantek maybe a socratic approach would be better
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tantek ok I want to get webmention sending working before replying to the thread
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tantek I think that's a good bar
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aaronpk agreed!
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tantek trying to focus on the positive and productive first ;)
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@xtof_fr Ébauché une page de sécurité douce. Guide d'accueil d'un #druide sur #indieweb - réactions bienvenues http://christopheducamp.com/w/Druide
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aaronpk xtof: this is quite possibly the funniest sentence i have read in a while, translated into English... "How to quickly build a dedicated space for the druids and other mages? ... to get them out of their Tupperware meetings on silos like Facebook and Twitter?"
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xtof just a stub to welcome a neo-druid arrived yesterday via IndieAuth ;)
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aaronpk www.nicolas-bermond.com?
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aaronpk is catching up on the google i/o keynote
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aaronpk (only watched the first 30 minutes livestreamed before I had to tune out and write a blog post https://geoloqi.com/blog/2013/05/heres-why-were-excited-about-the-new-google-location-apis/)
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aaronpk my favorite part so far...
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aaronpk "frankly, even Google's services have been fragmented at times. So today, we're announcing a new application: Google Hangouts"
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aaronpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzbMnFt46DU&t=2m39s
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aaronpk ...to continue the fragmentation
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xtof !aaronpk right I'd be happy to have your opinion in the future. will have to talk with him thursday and report
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aaronpk I'm not sure I understand exactly what that is about.. the google translation left much to be desired
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xtof thx that's sufficient
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xtof I have to leave thanks aaron.
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+560) (view diff)
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@xtof_fr @egadenne @robert_vinet @nicolas2fr FYI #mydata news á valider. Des #nains sur la route #indieweb : http://mydatalabs.com/2013-05-22 la bise á tous.
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@MyDataLabs ex. dans la jungle de design #indieweb de citations presse á valider avec le groupe #presse #personaldata http://mydatalabs.com/Presse
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@MyDataLabs #design inclusion module {{:presse}} dans #mydatanews rendu sur http://mydatalabs.com/Accueil#mydatanews - validation #indieweb welcome
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Loqi [mention] http://eschnou.storytlr.net/entry/what-the-hell-happened-to-federated-social-networks-62-24936.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
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tantek !tell eschnou nice post eschnou! http://eschnou.com/entry/what-the-hell-happened-to-federated-social-networks-62-24936.html
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pdurbin nice title
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aaronpk very nice post!
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tantek hah I remember that G+ thread (that eschnou cited for the Tom Coates quote) - https://plus.google.com/113651174506128852447/posts/LNPaSy5tdAQ (long but worth reading through to the end ;) )
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tantek too bad G+ comments don't have permalinks
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aaronpk still?
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aaronpk "I don't want to post a photo to Flickr, Facebook, Instagram, Plus, and everywhere else that my friends are looking at photos, and then have to manage a fragmented conversation."
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tantek such bullshit
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tantek aaronpk - did you read through to the end of the thread?
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aaronpk not yet
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tantek (there's a debunking of that statement ;) )
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barnabywalters scoble’s tone in that video is fascinating — I wonder if he’s intentionally playing devil’s advocate
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pdurbin tantek: didn't I ask you to ask about permalinks in G+? ;)
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tantek pdurbin - I did, they shrugged.
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tantek :/
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aaronpk lol tomcoates: "i think you're just running at a brick wall while declaring that it would CLEARLY BE BETTER IF THE BRICK WALL WASN'T THERE. "
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barnabywalters google have never cared about URLs though
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tantek barnabywalters - Google's *silos* have never cared about URLs
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barnabywalters tantek: this is true
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tantek with the brief exception of when kevinmarks was there and made Google Profiles not suck briefly
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barnabywalters is experimenting with inbound email handling via mandrill
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barnabywalters looks like it’s going to be really straightforward to post notes with file attachments via email
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk i've always just set up an smtp server and piped to a script. it's a PITA though
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tommorris evening indiewebsters
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tantek all the old blogging tools used to have post via email
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barnabywalters aaronpk: mandrill is *super* easy and nice
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tantek kevinmarks would be able remember how they worked
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barnabywalters they send you a lovely blob of JSON with all the attachments separated out and everything
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tantek barnabywalters - is mandrill open source? add to /projects?
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aaronpk that's nice. parsing email sucks
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barnabywalters tantek: mandrill is a service by mailchimp, so not open source unfortunately
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tommorris a decent open source email parser would be useful
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tantek wonder if we need a page for such services
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tantek e.g. IFTTT
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tantek it's not a silo
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tantek but it's not an open source project either
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aaronpk I totally think we need a page on services
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aaronpk it's fine if it's not open source
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barnabywalters where do these services lie on the new social web map? ;)
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tantek I know, we can put them at /spofs ;)
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tommorris there's things which are "open silos" like Wikipedia and OpenStreetMap
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aaronpk services are important!
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tommorris like, it's a pain, but you could fork them
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tantek barnabywalters - they go on the map when people use them to build bridges
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tantek (literally)
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aaronpk there need to be business models that exist that can thrive in an indieweb environment
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tantek so for example, there's an IFTTT bridge on the map from adactio.com to the FB island
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aaronpk and services are a great place to build value and competitive advantages
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tantek aaronpk - no particular business model "needs" to exist, business models either work or they don't, and that changes over time
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tantek I'd phrase it differently - it'd be nice to have less-evil business models be feasible and start to arise.
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aaronpk there need to be businesses that both encourage people to own their online identity as well as are supported by the fact that people are not using silos
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tantek being indieweb /friendly is just one aspect of being less-evil
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tantek aaronpk - I don't think you mean "need" there
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aaronpk and i'm not talking about services that provide an identity, i'm talking about backend plumbing stuff
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tantek "should" or "it would be nice if there were" are more accurate I think
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tantek so like superfeedr?
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tantek anyway - we're not going to see any businesses come about just by asking them to - it's more likely that one of us is going to figure out something concrete and build it
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aaronpk that's what I'm talking about
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tantek since we all here have each other to make sure we're building indieweb friendly things
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tantek but that's an opportunity, not a "need"
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aaronpk it's not a *need* right now, because we're still in the middle of figuring out the low level stuff
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tantek it's never a "need" per se - it should always be self-motivated
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tantek framing things like that in terms of "needs" usually means you don't understand the problem and/or are going to overdesign something complicated
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aaronpk no, it's a need in the future in order to get mass adoption and not fall into the trap of what happened last time around
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tantek that desire for "mass adoption" is also misplaced IMO
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tantek that's one of the traps that so many past efforts fell into
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aaronpk that's why I'm building as many prototypes of things that could be businesses later... indieauth, indienews, pingback.me, etc. I want to demonstrate businesses that can exist in this environment
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tantek as soon as you're designing for mass adoption rather than yourself and actual users, you're turning your thing into crap
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tantek and it's on its inevitable downslide (early adopters leaving etc.)
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barnabywalters it’s the granny problem (as in “make something your granny could/will use”)
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tantek huge fallacy that silos and open source projects fall into
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tommorris well, the other thing is that if you are going for mass adoption, you are competing with facebook
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aaronpk by mass adoption I mean getting people I know to have a domain name so I can talk to them on my site instead of using facebook al lthe time
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tantek that's why silos get suckier over time
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tommorris and one person can't win against facebook or twitter or whatever
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tantek aaronpk - that's not mass adoption, that's helping out your friends - that's VERY different
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tantek "mass adoption" is something you do if you're pitching to VCs
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aaronpk that's what I meant. at some point it will reach a critical mass
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tantek not if you're actually trying to build something useful/meaningful
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tantek aaronpk - I'm also opposed to "at some point" reasoning - I don't think that leads you to good (well-informed / accurate) conclusions
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tantek I've seen many a spec/standard/protocol/format overdesign due to both "mass adoption" and "at some point" reasoning
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tantek those methodologies are flawed if you're actually trying to build things that work today, can be incrementally improved, and sustainably grown.
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aaronpk i'm just saying that right now we have like 5 implementations on eschnou's comment thread, and hopefully there will be a bunch more
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aaronpk eventually it should be as easy for everyone to comment on that thread as it is to comment on facebook
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tantek great! that I agree with - we should be encouraging each and every new indieweb comments implementation!
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aaronpk and yea it's not going to happen in a year
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tantek "everyone"?
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tantek I think we can do better - let's make it *harder* for spammers and trolls.
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aaronpk "everyone" == everyone I currently talk to online on twitter facebook flickr etc
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tantek aaronpk - I think silos will always have a way of reaching people we don't know and connecting them.
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aaronpk and yea part of the reason we've had so much success so far is because we're not overoptimising for things like spam protection
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tantek we're not going to solve that problem short of superceding Google with something that does real time people/indieweb search on the web as a whole
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tantek since Google search is poor at a) real time, b) people search.
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tantek now that's a potential specific business model - real time open web people search that actually works (all the startups in that space just slap bad UIs on top of silo people search).
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tantek Facebook has good people search but is a silo
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tantek if you did manage to build that, you'd like get decent ad-worthy traffic, and eventually get acquired by G/Y!/MS to help their search
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tantek *likely
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tantek because they don't seem to be able to build it themselves
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aaronpk hey wait a sec
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aaronpk "and eventually get acquired by G/Y!/MS" <-- that defeats the purpose
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aaronpk i'm not talking about building shiny startups that get acquired!
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aaronpk i mean building actual businesses that can sustain themselves in this environment
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tantek I know it defeats the purpose, I'm just predicting that as a likely outcome.
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tantek I think such a good people search *could* sustain itself
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tantek but it will be too tempting to hold out and then cash out
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tantek I mean, or you could try to actually grow to compete with Google or FB, which is kind of the path Twitter is taking
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tantek but then how do you avoid becoming just another silo yourself?
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aaronpk that's the challenge
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tantek aaronpk - that's the challenge if we actually are fortunate enough to get to that point ;)
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tantek it would be a good problem to have
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aaronpk I'm optimistic
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aaronpk and starting to plan now :)
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tantek I think we all are (optimistic) - otherwise we wouldn't be here.
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tantek aaronpk perhaps you should start a page on /business-models and drop in some thoughts there - unless you think the ideas are too sensitive to share
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aaronpk I've been taking some notes in a text file so far about it, was brewing a blog post
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aaronpk but I could just put on the wiki instead
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tantek (any decent business model is only made better by having multiple players compete in the same space - thus the idea that you have to "protect" your business model idea is a huge fallacy)
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aaronpk I don't think they're sensitive at all, that goes against the whole idea behind this
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tantek (if you're the only doing it, you're either wrong, or too soon)
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tantek *only one
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aaronpk i'm not trying to actually build a business with these right now, more interested in demonstrating them
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tantek aaronpk - exactly! "just put on the wiki instead" of "taking some notes in a text file"!
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tantek agreed - exploring/demonstrating - that's the phase we're at now
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tantek aaronpk - I've been trying hard to push myself to put indieweb stuff on the wiki instead of my text files. it's hard but I'm persistent.
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tantek I figure people can edit/fix my dumb ideas ;)
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tantek funny, just realized that G+ thread that eschnou linked to is almost a year old
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tantek.com edited /IFTTT (+166) "link name, note spof and current user" (view diff)
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adactio tankek: it's almost *two* years old!
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tantek oh my goodness
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tantek was misreading the dates
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tantek wow that was right after the first indiewebcamp
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tantek we were building while blaine was bitching
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aaronpk building > bitching
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tantek.com created /spof (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /spofs (+241) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - if you start the /business-models page, I'll write-up the antipattern methodologies of "mass adoption"/"everyone" and "at some point". ;)
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aaronpk heh ok
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aaronpk i really need to plan for 2 hours indieweb stuff in the mornings and just come to the office later
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tantek aaronpk - that's what's happening to me too
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@xtof_fr @BenHasnae on se rapp demain pour discuter ? encore merci pour le boulot http://christopheducamp.com/w/2013-05-22 #indieweb #homepage #design
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tantek 2 hours of Pacific Time morning
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk seems to be the happening time
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tantek it's the only chance we have to reasonably interact with our UK compatriots
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tantek and EU
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tantek adactio, barnabywalters, tommorris, xtof, eschnou
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tantek speaking of which
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+21) "/* People on IRC */ main" (view diff)
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tantek add yourselves and your timezones: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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tantek or we might add you :P
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+98) "add a couple of past IndieWebCamp attendees" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People since you're also reasonably active here.
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christopheducamp.com edited /IRC_People (-3) "removed fr.. I'll still have to learn howto on irc - Leave you for the night guys. Thanks for all." (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - yeah - I'm starting to think of ~08:00-10:00 as the hot #indiewebcamp time block, makes sense since it's ~16:00-18:00 in the UK (and just an hour later in EU).
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christopheducamp.com edited /User:Christopheducamp.com (-36) "/* Christophe Ducamp */ * MyDataLabs seeding work in progress. Changetank around .. data in fr. CC3.0" (view diff)
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aaronpk might have to start waking up earlier and coming to the office later
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tantek aaronpk - could also try running some stats on the IRC logs to test the 8-10am PT hypothesis.
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aaronpk hah true
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aaronpk that would be a fun graph to add to /IRC
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tantek aaronpk - example: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html
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barnabywalters ooh nice, that’s a good idea — but preferably without the gradient bars :)
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tantek lulz. yeah, the visual design, is a bit, loud.
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aaronpk oh yea that's a common package for irc stats
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aaronpk that would be kind of fun too
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+56) "some copy edits, and add Activity section, as new folks showing up in the channel may be particularly interested in when the channel is more active so they can get questions answered etc." (view diff)
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tantek alright, in our usual incremental methdology, I've added an anecdotally described "Activity" section until there's real stats ;)
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tantek . /#livingit
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tantek how *does* one use hashtags in IRC without mis-communicating them as channel references?
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barnabywalters wonders if #.tag works
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barnabywalters nope
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barnabywalters # tag
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barnabywalters is messy
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tantek guess we can use email list style [tag]s
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tantek [livingit]
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk ironically twitter hashtags were based on IRC channel syntax, funny how it doesn't quite translate back
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tantek well originally hashtags were for following a community discussion - #barcamp
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tantek the broader use of hashtags for tagging in general evolved quickly thereafter
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aaronpk true
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tantek thus exceeding the original semantic from IRC
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tantek aaronpk - I'd like to see you capture (on the wiki) the optimistic positivity around indieweb-friendly or indieweb-based business models, without hopefully falling into the traps of efforts past.
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tantek because I *do* think you have some great thoughts there - as we've discussed in person
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tantek even if you just drop in some braindumps - that's good enough - we can adjust wording as needed
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tommorris you know, I'd pay a reasonable annual fee to have a clean, spam-free feed of everything that anybody says about my site on the web.
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tantek and I'll take care of the anti-patterns
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tantek tommorris - perhaps start http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models with that!
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tommorris basically what technorati did before becoming a spammy haven of nothingness, and then icerocket did before becoming a spammy haven of nothingness, and what google blog search did when it worked, and what google alerts ought to do but Google will probably sunset next week.
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tantek ^^^^ -> wiki!
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barnabywalters I’m currently speccing out the person graph degrees-of-freedom spam preventing graph search we were discussing a while ago — that might easily be the basis of a lot of spam reduction stuff
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tantek barnabywalters: Why not start with just a whitelist?
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barnabywalters tantek: that’s the plan. but no reason not consider how a more complex version might work :)
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barnabywalters s/not/not to
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: tantek: that’s the plan. but no reason not to consider how a more complex version might work :)
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tantek I like what aaronpk has done with using twitter followings too
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barnabywalters yeah, that’s nifty
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tantek Both those are sufficient to start speccing out on the wiki immediately
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barnabywalters will do
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tantek No need to spec anything more complex than that to start with
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aaronpk omg this FSWS thread is getting more and more silly
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barnabywalters aaronpk: the “best practises document” one?
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aaronpk yea
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barnabywalters reads latest message
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barnabywalters wow
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tommorris I got access to WMF Tool Labs today, a new environment for community members to build tools and stuff around Wikipedia.
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tommorris It has live syncing databases that actually don't suck.
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tommorris A query I ran against the old server that took 7 minutes takes 48 seconds now.
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aaronparecki.com created /business-models (+2155) "initial braindump on business models" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell tantek ok initial braindump is here http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 12 minutes ago: ok initial braindump is here http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models
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tantek aaronpk - beautiful - great start!
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tantek so much there :)
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Loqi eschnou: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: nice post eschnou! http://eschnou.com/entry/what-the-hell-happened-to-federated-social-networks-62-24936.html
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tantek.com created /aggregators (+886) "stub with some context and related effects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /aggregators (+18) "see also aggregation" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /business-models (+495) "bit more linking, subgrouping per indieweb principles/values" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - you provided an amazing diversity in the kinds of aggregators in that list - I took a shot at putting them on a spectrum from most-indieweb-friendly/enabling to least: http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models#Aggregators
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aaronpk ah cool
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aaronpk that's great
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tantek see if it makes sense to you too :)
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tantek I hope that as part of capturing all these business model thoughts, we can sort them accordingly (in terms of indieweb friendliness) as a way of encouraging folks to build more and more indieweb-friendly businesses.
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tantek specific examples along a spectrum help to illustrate that (much more than theoretical principles/values)
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tantek also helps demonstrate a "market" for them
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aaronpk hooray for "in practice" instead of "in theory"!
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aaronpk heh, this is actually kind of what that FSWS thread is trying to do
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aaronpk would be fun to throw this page and /friendly over to the list and ask them to edit the wiki to give feedback :)
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aaronpk or maybe that's too much of a troll
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tantek a centralized email thread about a decentralized web is unlikely to go anywhere
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tantek aaronpk - nah - they'd either a) gum it up with noise, or b) bitch about IndieAuth
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aaronpk hah
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tantek.com edited /business-models (+30) "building blocks" (view diff)
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tantek hey aaronpk - something is broken about the way [[Category:…]] links work on the wiki
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tantek they're supposed to go to a page that auto-generates a list of everything that links to them
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tantek but that's not what's happening
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aaronpk they don't?
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tantek no - e.g. see building blocks for example
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aaronpk whoa weird
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aaronpk oh you know what
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tantek another thing that's broken - there's no visibility into redirects
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tantek like the (redirected from … ) links
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tantek that you normally see on wikis
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:building-blocks&redirect=no is a redirect
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tantek but undiscoverable
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aaronpk I turned on HTTP 301 redirects because otherwise it serves duplicate content and google indexes it poorly and downranks pages
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tantek see: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2
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tantek note the
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tantek (Redirected from uf2)
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tantek where uf2 links to the "redirect=no" version
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tantek that's a discoverable redirect
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aaronpk yea, but making an HTTP request to /uf2 and /microformats-2 gives you the same HTML content at two differnet URLs
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tantek those are missing on the indiewebcamp wiki
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tantek doesn't seem to have caused us any problems on microformats.org
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aaronpk it's an HTTP redirect plugin that sends back 301 redirect instead of serving the HTML
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tantek and hiding redirects makes them harder to find/change later
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tantek not very wiki-friendly
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tantek seems like a place to optimize more for human editors than for google machines
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tantek and let the smarties at google figure it out
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tantek since this is a mediawiki default - they kind of have to
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tantek (e.g. works this way on Wikipedia)
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aaronpk i can turn it off
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aaronpk done http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:building-blocks
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tantek thanks!
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aaronparecki.com edited /hashtags (+30) (view diff)
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tantek now there's just the problem of why [[Category:…]] aggregations are broken
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tantek ironically
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aaronpk they're not
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tantek since we were just talking/editing about aggregations
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tantek ohhh
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:building-blocks&redirect=no
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tantek ugh
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tantek so obviously it's bad form to redirect [[Category:…]] pages
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tantek because when you do then yes, you have broken the [[Category:…]] aggregations
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tantek by hiding them
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aaronpk we should proabbly move the content in building-blocks to the category page, then redirect building-blocks to the category page, yea?
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tantek nah - I think both make sense
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Loqi yea
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tantek the category: page is automatic
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tantek where as /building-blocks is curated
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aaronpk but you can put text content on the category page too
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tantek whereas
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aaronpk then you get both
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tantek ok let's try that first and see how it works (fewer pages being better/simpler and all that)
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tantek go for it
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+1270) "moved content from [[building-blocks]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /building-blocks () "(-1261) moved content to [[Category:building-blocks]]" (view diff)
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aaronpk so now http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns links to http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks which has all the curated content on top, and the list of pages on the bottom
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tantek.com created /anti-patterns (+26) "see: antimatter. the hyphen will disappear from others' usage (e.g. WP) in time." (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, looks good
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aaronpk makes more sense now
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tantek hey sandeepshetty - add yourself: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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sandeepshetty Haven't added rel="me" to sandeep.io yet. Waiting for my next push.
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sandeepshetty BTW just saw the updates to http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns Looking forward to adding comments to that page.
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tantek sandeepshetty - editing your site is that hard that you have to wait for something?
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tantek you're not using a database to do that are you? ;)
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sandeepshetty I've been pushing my git master to live instead of branching features
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sandeepshetty Was just getting around to editing my blogger domain instead...
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sandeepshetty Does the rel="me" have to be an anchor?
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tantek it should yes
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sandeepshetty So just a link rel is not an option? Why is that?
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tantek because visible metadata can't be trusted?
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tantek aaronpk - it looks like IndieAuth is incorrectly parsing (scraping?!?) rel-me links in HTML comments
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sandeepshetty tantek: you mean "invisible"?
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aaronpk orly?
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tantek sandeepshetty - yes ;)
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tantek aaronpk - yeah - view source on http://arcocene.org/
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tantek who signed-up yesterday: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=2013/Guest_List&curid=241&diff=2885&oldid=2796&rcid=2962
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aaronpk indieauth can't find any links on the page
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aaronpk probably un-commented it to log in, then commented it out
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tantek weird
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tantek another faceless attendee
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tantek hmm - perhaps for those without icons on the Guest List - we should put in the goofiest icon that google image search finds as motivation for them to replace it? ;)
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tantek <ahem>caseorganic</ahem>
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tantek of course I'm pretty sure that termie would be ok with even the goofiest of images
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sandeepshetty "twitter.com/sandeepshetty There was an error verifying this provider. Confirm you have a rel="me" link on this site pointing to your website."
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aaronpk you are one of the lucky ones whose twitter websites are wrapped in a t.co link :(
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sandeepshetty On twitter.com/sandeepshetty I have <a target="_blank" rel="me nofollow" href="http://t.co/vpRkluqYpS" title="http://sandeep.shetty.in/"> sandeep.shetty.in </a>
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sandeepshetty :)
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sandeepshetty is an a way to fix that or should I try another service like github?
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aaronpk should just use github instead
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tantek sandeepshetty - perhaps you could +1 this issue: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Twitter_t.co
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tantek oh wait. ;)
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sandeepshetty :)
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aaronpk I need to fix it on this end https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/7
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sandeepshetty Ok I'm in but I didn't like having to add a new block in my layout with info that I only had on the about page before... but I guess it's a good tradeoff :) Is there any way around this though?
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aaronpk currently no
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aaronpk there are two open issues on IndieAuth that will fix it
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aaronpk following redirects from what twitter links to (to un-t.co it)
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aaronpk and following one-level rel=me on your own site, so your home page can link to your /about page which then has all your external profiles
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sandeepshetty (Y)
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sandeep.shetty.in edited /IRC_People (+50) (view diff)
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tantek yay!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek aaronpk do you have github issue open for the latter? (supporting one level deep about / contact pages)
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+12) "fix a couple of usernames to actually point to username pages" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: One aspect we didn't discuss the other day related to DBA tax, is that most of the new breed of PaaS's don't have a persistent file-system
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tantek what's the relevance of PaaS?
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tantek sounds like something non-portable
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sandeepshetty https://docs.appfog.com/faq#persistentfs
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sandeepshetty I'm currently using them to host sandeep.io, will have to move if/when I move to using files.
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tantek sandeepshetty - see: http://indiewebcamp.com/deployment#Goals
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tantek sandeepshetty - appfog sounds so off the desired track that I'm not even sure how to categorize them
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aaronpk tantek: yes I believe so
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tantek aaronpk URL?
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aaronpk huh, guess not
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sandeepshetty IIRC there are others that don't support a persistent file system.
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aaronpk amazon, sort of
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sandeepshetty I've used shared hosting, run a VPS and find appfog better than both of those approaches.
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tantek "better" in terms of what axis?
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aaronpk it's definitely a trade-off. I also suspect the Heroku/Appfog model will become more popular
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aaronpk they simplify so much of the process, there's no "sysadmin" role on those
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tantek but then you're locked in, right?
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aaronpk not if more of these pop up and work with the same standards
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sandeepshetty easier to manage compared to VPS and safer/secure/performant than shared hosting
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aaronpk i mean heroku is barely lock-in
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tantek they don't seem to support standards
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aaronpk `git push` to deploy, and you're just running a Rack app. you can run a Rack app anywhere, including on your own VPS
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sandeepshetty re lock in, in this context a db is actually more "portable"
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tantek aaronpk - if that's "so easy", care to document it a bit here? http://indiewebcamp.com/deployment#Possible_Approaches
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tantek.com edited /deployment (+14) "give Heroku git push its own section for further follow-up" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - better spot for it (with existing content) http://indiewebcamp.com/deployment#Heroku_git_push
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tantek sandeepshetty - never seen a db-based solution be actually "portable"
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tantek always involves custom export/import scripts
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tantek anything is "portable" with enough coding time thrown at it, heck, take pictures and OCR them etc.
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sandeepshetty PHP+Mysql is actually pretty portable
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tantek by "portable" here we mean some very trivial process like zip, scp/ftp, unzip
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tantek sandeepshetty - nah - MySQL corrupts content all the time when "porting" - e.g. UTF8/encoding problems
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tantek just search for MySQL UTF8
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aaronpk I recently moved a site from a shared hosting environment to heroku. the database migration was pretty straightforward with a nice script, I even had to move it from mysql to postgres. was literally pull / push the database
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tantek and the corruption is often invisible, especially if most of your content is just ASCII7
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tantek and you don't notice it until long after the original where you ported from is gone and you can't do any attempt at reporting
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sandeepshetty re trivial process: mysqldump ... | scp | mysql
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tantek sandeepshetty - doesn't work across MySQL versions - that's the point
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tantek people get UTF8 corruptions
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tantek because there's magical database configuration crap you have to be aware of
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tantek on *both* sides
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tantek before that will work
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sandeepshetty In that sense does portability also cover linux -> windows hosts?
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aaronpk oh yea don't forget the --skip-extended-insert flag otherwise if you have really long tables they will break when the target DB has a smaller max query size ;)
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sandeepshetty Most of the results I got for mysql utf8 are pretty old..
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tantek Eric Meyer wrote many blog posts about it
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tantek and he was just doing WordPress to WordPress migrations
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tantek and worse yet - he got LOTS of *wrong* advice from those in the "MySQL community"
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sandeepshetty Link?
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tantek search meyerweb.com
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sandeepshetty Search showed me a link from 2004
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sandeepshetty 2009 is the latest entry about it..
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termie tantek: truth
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termie tantek: re pics
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tantek yeah since 2009 people have wisened up about all the BS surrounding MySQL advocacy
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tantek it's a fragile piece of crap
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Loqi ABOUT ALL THE BS http://loqi.me/7K9
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sandeepshetty haven't seen any recent issues but I agree that it more likely to change than say file systems
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tantek so those that have been burned have moved on
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sandeepshetty Have you personally been burned by a db? Asking because I don't have the same feelings towards them because I haven't been burned personally...
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tantek sandeepshetty - burned in terms of wasted time yes.
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tantek in terms of corrupted content? yes, comments I've left on others blog posts - thanks to the UTF8 character in my last name.
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tantek made me realize - don't trust MySQL
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tantek they haven't figured out UTF8 data robustness/reliability
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tantek whereas text files / HTML seems to work just fine
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aaronpk if you set your charset to utf-8 everything's fine. as long as it's utf-8 everywhere
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tantek aaronpk - I believe that was one of the comments made on one of Eric Meyer's posts.
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tantek there's no "everything's fine" when it comes to MySQL
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aaronpk heh
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tantek there's only the illusion thereof
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sandeepshetty Isn't PHP also bad with handling strings
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tantek sandeepshetty - code is different than data
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aaronpk well I think he means PHP is contributing to the data storage problems too
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tantek as long as your data isn't corrupted, you can just keep rewriting the code as needed
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sandeepshetty but if it doesn't handle data properly...
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tantek with flat files, it's quite obvious quickly just by looking at them in a browser
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sandeepshetty it can mange the data before it get to the persistent store
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tantek with databases - you don't discover until long after the fact
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tantek because, once again, the files are uninspectable
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sandeepshetty Ah your assuming editing files by hand
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tantek being able to edit files by hand is a feature yes
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aaronpk it's just a lot easier to open one file by hand than it is to inspect a single database row whenveer you want
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sandeepshetty even if I were to move to using file, I wouldn't be looking AT the file
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tantek that's kind of how/why the web took off and crushed ALL other previous hypertext attempts
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tantek view source etc.
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tantek history has shown the view source / edit file path to be more robust / scalable than the depend-on-magic-tools-and-magic-binary-files path
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tantek feel free to ignore that if you like
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+1273) "/* FAQ */ MySQL portability - not" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty Think there's a difference between storing things as plain text and editing source directly
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tantek meh
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sandeepshetty a lot of the web I grew up to was filled with dreamweaver/frontpage pages...
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sandeepshetty not everyone edited the source but the yes the source was visible to others.
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tantek nearly all your page views today are of pages that were handcrafted, often with templates, but always handcrafted hand edited.
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sandeepshetty yes but templated pages get populated/rendered with content that comes form stuff that has passed through code...
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tantek code that you've written by hand. not from shrinkwrapped tools.
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tantek (like those you mentioned)
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tantek inspectability in the data and in the code
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sandeepshetty but code i languages that don't handle unicode/utf by default very welll
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tantek feel free to document the specific issues you run into
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tantek so far a bunch of us are successfully using PHP or Ruby based solutions that seem fairly robust with UTF8
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tantek e.g. I POSSES UTF8 all the time to Twitter
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tantek Falcon is written in PHP and CASSIS
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tantek if you've had specific problems with specific languages, it would benefit everyone if you would document them (blog post or wiki page)
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tantek non-specific problem mentions aren't particularly useful/actionable.
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sandeepshetty just saying that the problem you mentioned with leaving comments (thanks to the UTF8 character in my last name): could be one of many things and not necessarily the db (without of course ignoring the fact that Mysql had issues)
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tantek sandeepshetty - nah - it was roundtripping (data integrity) on display/entry just fine, but after a MySQL port, got corrupted, hence, MySQL is to blame.
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tantek and there are/were enough anecdotes about it to not bother wasting time with MySQL
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sandeepshetty ok. Guess I just haven't swallowed the database are evil pill yet
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tantek sandeepshetty - nothing to swallow - you may need to experience it for yourself.
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tantek if you can somehow chart a golden thread of how to reliably use databases without DBA tax overhead, then *that* would definitely be worth documenting as another alternative.
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tantek it's just that (nearly) the rest of us have given up on it. good luck to you.
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tantek To be clear - that's how we make progress with alternative approaches. No one believes in them until someone steps forward and proves them out and documents them openly.
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tantek Also: note that WordPress is still the most-used "production" project among IndieWebCamp participants: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#production
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sandeepshetty I've built a couple of things around the file-system and I generally thinks it better/simple/easier (except of ad-hoc queries and aggregations) but I also reach for the db often (especially when I don't want to have to deal with concurrency and atomicity)
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tantek so there's certainly room for multiple perspectives.
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tantek it's just that *everyone* building their own Indieweb content solution has abandoned databases.
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tantek with the possible exception of tommorris - who I *think* is using a database with Ferocity
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tantek but he needs to expand the documentation on that accordingly: http://indiewebcamp.com/Ferocity to answer that question
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tantek.com created /User:Sandeep.shetty.in (+36) "stub with URL" (view diff)
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pdurbin sandeepshetty: me neither :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - perhaps you can describe your indieweb solution-in-progress on your user page: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Sandeep.shetty.in
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tantek pdurbin - do you maintain your own site?
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tantek That's typically what's led most of us to abandon database dependencies for our own stuff.
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sandeepshetty tantek: aaronpk : I'm guessing if you are editing the source files by hand you are not dealing with concurrency issues and ensuring that write operations are atomic?
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pdurbin tantek: I run http://irclog.greptilian.com which has a dependency on mysql
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tantek sandeepshetty - haven't had any concurrency issues yet, no. But some of my PHP code does write to the files.
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tantek pdurbin - sure that's a service, but it's not really "your stuff" - hence the indieweb perspective.
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pdurbin well, I use IRC logging as a lightweight blog of sorts
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tantek sandeepshetty - concurrency is much less of an issue for indieweb use cases
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sandeepshetty I agree... I think I'm over thinking it...
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sandeepshetty Making frequent updates and doing a lot of things on posting content that could possible not finish, need to be retried, and not interfere with the next update is what I was looking at solving...
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tantek so far that hasn't been any kind of a high priority problem for any of us
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sandeepshetty the "lots of things on posting content" is updating a few relationships and indexes
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tantek even on your own blog sandeepshetty - you don't post that often - so not sure why that's a focus
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tantek indexes should always be regeneratable on the fly anyway - doesn't matter if they get corrupted or out of date
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sandeepshetty The blogspot blog was meant to be just a blog but with sandeep.io I was experimenting with using it also for bookmarking (http://www.sandeep.io/bookmarks/) and if I did go ahead with it would be a lot of updates
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tantek.com created /rel-me (+409) "stub" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty you mean regenerate on each update?
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tantek.com edited /web-sign-in (+45) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /relmeauth (+63) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+439) "/* Issues */ Contact page support (lack thereof)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, when you've got a github indieauth issue for about pages, here's the wiki link: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#Contact_page_support
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tantek sandeepshetty - experimentation on your own domain is highly encouraged! report back what you learn from that experience.
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sandeepshetty (Y)
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sandeepshetty time to get some shut eye (one of these things in not like the others: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people) :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - awesome that you have a :30 offset timezone
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tantek see you in the (your) morning!
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tantek http://blog.ouseful.info/2013/05/16/google-lock-in/
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tantek.com edited /Google (+191) "add articles section started with the google lock-in article" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /self-dogfooding (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+2597) "mass adoption" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /databases-antipattern (+7425) "move databases antipattern to its own article - it's got enough content and structure for it" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns () "(-5784) move databases antipattern to its own article - it's got enough content and structure for it. abbreviate summary of it instead." (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /spam (+4056) "summary of spam prevention measures and large degrees-of-separation braindump" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+0) "sort" (view diff)
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tantek ouch on that "popular wikis" link barnabywalters. sad but true.
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tantek.com edited /spam (+58) "stub, dfn, see also" (view diff)
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pdurbin tantek: you're right, IRC logging is not "your stuff" ... it's more like "our stuff" ... which is why I like it so much :)
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tantek pdurbin - certainly there's value in shared spaces and content.
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aaronpk oh yea these IRC logs are stored in mysql :)
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tantek I mean we're here, and a lot of us indiewebcamp types contribute heavily to indiewebcamp.com - which is a huge public domain community resource.
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waterpigs.co.uk created /email (+2353) "Summary of email stuff, braindump of post-via-email use cases, how to do it using mandrill, security considerations" (view diff)
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pdurbin I guess the /topic is "own your data" not "own our data" :)
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pdurbin aaronpk: have you learned nothing? databases are evil ;)
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tantek yeah, our community stuff tends to be stored in databases. we're working on solving indieweb problems first, community problems second.
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tantek and the trade-off there is that yes we might lose our logs or wiki pages
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tantek there is a hope that by making it all public domain, copies of it exist out there and won't ever go away
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tantek I don't think any of us wants to take that path (public domain) with all our personal content
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aaronpk fyi I have so many backups of the indiewebcamp wiki DB
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+1023) "at some point" (view diff)
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pdurbin I guess I thought the purpose of indieweb was for community, for discussion between people via blogs and comments, etc.
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aaronpk that is one thing I do on my website, yes
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-7) "rm dup" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - right there on the home page: "IndieWebCamp is a gathering of web creators building and sharing open web technologies to advance the state of the indie web."
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pdurbin tantek: but that's a tautology :)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-3) "put a TOC in a reasonable spot to make it easier to link to subsections" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - no you just didn't notice the slight difference in terms.
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tantek indiewebcamp vs indieweb
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tantek so if you'd like indieweb expanded, see: http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page#What_is_the_IndieWeb.3F
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pdurbin "We should all own the content we're creating, rather than just posting to third-party content silos. Publish on your own domain, and syndicate out to silos."
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tantek have to give it to Google that at least they've maintained Buzz post permalinks as somewhat working/redirecting to read-only Google+ posts, e.g. this blog post:
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tantek http://scobleizer.com/2010/05/22/facebook-haters-is-this-guy-your-savior/
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tantek has the text "Based on conversations people are having over on Google Buzz "
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tantek which links to: http://www.google.com/buzz/scobleizer/GQcJyW6TBta/Want-a-competitor-to-Facebook-This-is-an-important
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tantek which then redirects to:
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tantek https://profiles.google.com/111091089527727420853/buzz/GQcJyW6TBta
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tantek (copying all that explicitly here because no idea when any of those will stop working)
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pdurbin aaronpk: I'm glad you're doing database backups :)
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aaronpk part of the DB tax :)
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pdurbin yep. at least I pay my DB tax mostly with Puppet :)
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pdurbin I keep all of my Puppet configs (including the database backup stuff) for my live server here: https://github.com/pdurbin/greptilian-vagrant
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aaronpk wow I haven't gotten into puppet yet
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pdurbin aaronpk: oh, also, please let me know when you get around to implementing http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today so I can retire http://tmp.greptilian.com/tmp/iwc.php from http://wiki.greptilian.com/haunts