#indiewebcamp 2013-06-29

2013-06-29 UTC
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @ozten: New Post: Persona Incentives for Adoption http://ozten.com/psto/2013/06/25/persona-incentives-for-adoption/ in reply to @Johannes_Ernst #mozilla #persona #IndieWebCamp
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tommorris tommorris.org has had a seasonal makeover. be sure to check it out.
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pdurbin tommorris: you might be interested in this: http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2013-06-28
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@mohand_mmoo RT @t: @kevinmarks I've got #POSSE working to Twitter, and even replies too.
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@mohand_mmoo @t @kevinmarks #POSSE #indiewebcamp
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bret ozten: how did the camlistore expedition go?
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JonathanNeal hi
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+141) "/* 0.1 types */ make the list of post types explicit" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+71) "/* Level 0 */ rel-me is part of indieauth, stick to microformats2 for the "some content" requirement, more than one h-entry" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+1103) "come up with concrete counts for Level 1" (view diff)
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bret nice
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+638) "/* POSSEs */ make an exception for those who minimize (like bret.io) or especially eliminate their silo dependence." (view diff)
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bret awww you are too kind
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bret It would be cool to get posse working statically somehow
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tantek but where would you POSSE to?
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tantek that was why we added the clauses there we did
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bret Me? I dont care to
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bret i think I need to re-figure out why I am doing static only. I was thinking about it and the primary connivence was due to github hosting.
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+100) "/* Level 3 */ require display full content rich [[reply-contexts]] (" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /reply-contexts (+27) "r" (view diff)
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bret I was thinking of doing a comic along the lines of http://www.airburst.co.uk/junkboxinstruments/misc/index.htm
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bret but with the concept of the indieweb
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bret ie This is a h-entry
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bret this is another
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bret this is a webmention
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bret Now go form the indieweb
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+36) "/* Level 2 */ tbd rating review" (view diff)
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bret maybe there could be facebook like wall functions
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bret IE, trusted domains could actually proactively send you a message to display in your stream
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bret without having to reply to something
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bret maybe it could be some cryptographic based implementation to establish trust or something
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bret ideas
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+221) "/* areas */ some possible levels for some other areas - to be integrated into the level definitions" (view diff)
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tantek bret if you do a comic, be sure to post it on your own site, and implement it as the comics post type: http://indiewebcamp.com/comics
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bret ok
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bret im hoping to post my IWC roundup this evening
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bret ill post it to news.indiewebcamp.com
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caseorganic !tell tantek: yahoo shutdown news: http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/54125001066/keeping-our-focus-on-whats-next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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erikmaarten !tell barnabywalters: there seems to be a problem installing mf-cleaner with Composer. mf-cleaner requires tantek/cassis, but "no matching package found". Perhaps a minimum-stability issue?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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erikmaarten !tell barnabywalters: sorry, mf-cleaner requires helpers, which require tantek/cassis.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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caseorganic.com edited /site-deaths (+2506) "/* Upcoming */ Added Yahoo properties to shut down, including Altavista" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: can you check my microformating? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbret.io%2F2013%2F06%2F28%2Findiewebcamp-2013-roundup%2F
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bret already found an error in the syndication
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tommorris morning all
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bret hey tom
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@nchenga RT @pfefferle: @nchenga btw. you can find a list of wordpress plugins here http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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bret aaronpk, http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/bret.io/2013/06/28/indiewebcamp-2013-roundup/
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bret.io edited /IRC_People (+1) "Updated my old domain to my new domain" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 2 hours, 50 minutes ago: yahoo shutdown news: http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/54125001066/keeping-our-focus-on-whats-next
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bret tantek: posted my iwc2013 braindump http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/bret.io/2013/06/28/indiewebcamp-2013-roundup/
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tommorris put out a festive site design for just this weekend. ;) http://tommorris.org/
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bret woop!
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tantek !tell caseorganic my goodness they really weren't done killing things, per http://tantek.com/2013/169/t6/yahoo-not-done-killing-osb2013-ownyourdata
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret tantek you still have your upcoming link
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tantek where?
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bret on your Elsewhere sidebar
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tantek yeah :(
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bret its one of the nicer logos i have to say
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tommorris toasts to departed friends.
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bret tommorris are you accepting post replies?
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bret i mean displaying them
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tommorris not yet. haven't had time to build out the functionality
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bret what about collecting webmentions?
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tommorris yeah, not doing that yet
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tommorris I've built the display functionality but it is manual
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bret In response to your RSS problem, its not idea, but fever works okay
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bret at least its faster than newsblur
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tommorris yeah, I'm looking at feedbin
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bret feedbin looks alright, have not tried it
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bret works with reeder right? I love my offline caching for my phone
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bret whoa new firefox logo
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tommorris well, it works with Reeder on iPhone, but they haven't yet sorted out Reeder for iPad and Mac
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tommorris Reeder for Mac is the killer for me - I do most of my RSS reading on my laptop on the way to work
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bret someone needs to write an h-atom parser and implement it into a feed reader
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tommorris they are removing Reeder for Mac and iPad from the App Stores on July 1 because they won't work with anything else but Google Reader for a while
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bret yikes
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bret you could try to sneak by uins the iphone app
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bret it works really well
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bret using*
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tommorris yeah, but I'd then have to use my iPod touch for reading everything
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@reederapp/status/350244294847770624/photo/1 - the Reeder guy is working on the iPad app
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@reederapp More on the iPad update soon. Still needs some work. https://twitter.com/reederapp/status/350244294847770624/photo/1
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bret good time to open source the desktop app and accept pull requests
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tommorris OS X version as open source loss leader for the iPhone/iPad versions ;)
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bret exactly
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bret i wish newsblur wasnt such a hassle to self host
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bret i also wish "reeder support for news blur will likely never happen" wasnt the reality
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tommorris so, I have a copy of ReadKit, which is an offline Instapaper client for OS X
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tommorris it supports Newsbin
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tommorris that may be the answer
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tommorris Feedbin rather
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bret i have little trust in most small mac app developers
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bret so many seem to be so slow to keep up or eventually abandon their apps
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tommorris just trying feedbin
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tommorris it imports Google Reader starred.json files too
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bret !!
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bret thats neat
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bret i kind of just cut my losses
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tommorris my starred.json is 97.2 Mb
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bret haha! whacha gonna do with all those stars? yikes!
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tommorris snark about it. ;) http://tommorris.org/posts/8405
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bret that works :)
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aaronpk bret: awesome indieweb roundup!
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aaronpk i gave it an upvote on indienews ;)
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aaronpk tho now that people are publishing "likes", really an upvote should just be a syndicated "like"
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pfefferle as mentioned yesterday, i am experimenting with a push enabled feed reader… with the focus on the content independent new push spec...
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pfefferle for that i am updating my php-libs (namespaces, new spec…)
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pfefferle are you interested to release it under the hood of the indieweb repo?
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pfefferle that is the old one based on Josh Frasers code https://github.com/pfefferle/pubsubhubbub-php i will keep it as is, because of wordpress and their lack of php support
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sandeepshetty /msg nickserv help
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sandeepshetty (oops)
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tantek who here is working on building / integrating a personal feed reader into their personal site? i.e. so you can read what your friends are saying and seamlessly reply right there inline and have it post your replies to your own site?
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tantek opens Google Reader one last time to see if I missed anything.
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tantek looks like Twitter turned off Atom feeds on 2012-10-09
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sandeepshetty raises his hands
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sandeepshetty excited about some feed stuff I'm doing. more when I have something to show :)
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sandeepshetty (which should be tomorrow :)
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tantek sandeepshetty - ok that's good to know
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tantek I had heard people talking about it but wasn't sure who had prioritized it as an itch or a "working on"
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tantek sandeepshetty - perhaps consider adding a "Working On" section to http://indiewebcamp.com/Converspace?
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tantek Similar to indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Working_On (hey Aaronpk is that section empty? are you not working on anything? or just haven't bubbled some itches up to working on?)
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tantek or here's another Working On section example: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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tantek (I tend to overthink things before I code them :) )
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tantek or this is good too: http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot#Roadmap
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tantek so it looks like maybe I just haven't opened Google Reader since 2012-10-09?
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tantek here's a major flaw (comparing RSS readers to Email). If I don't open the reader, it fails to read/receive posts. Whereas email queues up whether I open the Email reader or not.
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tantek.com edited /aggregation (+34) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /aggregators (+850) "added new criticism section with Fails to aggregate if not open" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: I prefer that
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tantek sandeepshetty - I think I prefer it for some sources. Others I want to read every post.
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tantek it's source dependent for me. not plumbing (Atom vs SMTP) dependent
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tantek it's just plain dumb that feeds work that way by default
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tantek an accident of lazy implementation
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tantek especially for server based readers like Google Reader
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tantek they could have had a setting like [x] aggregate on the server
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tantek or something
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tantek interesting, twitter returns HTTP 406 Not Acceptable for requests to what used to be their Atom feeds.
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tantek aaronpk - nice group photo! http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/9120799605/
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tantek can you upload to indiewebcamp.com too?
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tantek.com edited /2013 (+90) "embed the group photo from Flickr til aaronpk uploads one ;)" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: I already did :) it's on the home page
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth () "(-568) /* Issues */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (-89) "events!" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+145) "/* Events */" (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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aaronparecki.com edited /File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (+72) "also posted on flickr" (view diff)
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tantek :)
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tantek judging from various Google Reader subscriptions - it really does look like a huge amount of feeds died in 2011
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aaronpk the feeds stopped publishing?
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tantek looks like it - or URLs died
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aaronpk crazy
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tantek RSS has been dying for a while
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lionzan.me created /User:Lionzan.me (+1207) "Created page with "just started to reclaim my online identity, see http://lionzan.me/oir/ Clearly I have a lot of road ahead, but I started! Actually as you can read from the posts, I started writ..."" (view diff)
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tantek another pattern I'm noticing is that a lot of sites have their feed for anything at /feed appended to the path
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tantek not format specific
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tantek for anyone who wants to just publish a stream of posts without home page furniture links etc., that might be a good pattern
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tantek and then just post simply styled h-entry posts there, at /feed
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aaronpk furniture links??
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tantek aaronpk - the stuff around the sides
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tantek that hangs around
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tantek even when the content in the middle changes :)
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aaronpk hah
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tantek and apparently I have 0 starred items in Google Reader. right then, buy bye.
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aaronpk i have lots of that
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tantek buh bye I mean
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tantek good riddance Google Reader - you never supported proper Atom parsing of XHTML anyway.
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+523) "/* Itching */ add a comment prompt when there are no comments" (view diff)
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aaronpk hm is there the concept of an "author" for an h-event?
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aaronpk there isn't according to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event
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tantek what would that mean?
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aaronpk not sure
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tantek events have organizers, not authors
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aaronpk i just changed the class on my h-entry to h-event and now I see an author of the h-event :)
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tantek posts have authors
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tantek I think you still want an h-entry when you post about an event
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aaronpk yes, but this is for the event itself
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tantek but on an event permalink page - you want an h-event
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tantek events themselves don't have authors - unless they're booksignings ;)
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aaronpk haha
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Loqi ahaha
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tantek http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/54125001066/keeping-our-focus-on-whats-next mentions Browser Plus - one of the remaining stickers on http://tantek.com/2013/169/t6/yahoo-not-done-killing-osb2013-ownyourdata
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aaronpk lol!
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pfefferle YQL is still alive
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/UK (-5) "fix url" (view diff)
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lionzan.me edited /User:Lionzan.me (+87) (view diff)
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lionzan.me edited /projects (+58) "/* Jekyll */" (view diff)
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lionzan.me edited /projects (+2) "/* Jekyll */" (view diff)
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aaronpk ugh, php datetime doesn't support setting only timezone offsets, you have to set an actual timezone
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JonathanNeal https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5889625 - this draft (hopefully) describes how JSON content will work in a management system I am building.
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aaronpk i may need to write a new datetime class
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JonathanNeal Let me know if you happen to notice an easier way of describing the system.
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 45 minutes ago: my goodness they really weren't done killing things, per http://tantek.com/2013/169/t6/yahoo-not-done-killing-osb2013-ownyourdata
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caseorganic !tell Tantek - there are still a few more things left.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bret aaronpk: Replacing upvotes with syndicated likes is a good idea
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bret aaronpk: also, it looks like something went a little wrong when your site parsed my note:
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bret http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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aaronpk bret: yea strange! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbret.io%2F2013%2F06%2F29%2Ft2%2F
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aaronpk ah there is no space between the URL and the <p> tag
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aaronpk <a class="u-in-reply-to" href="http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb">@aaronparecki.com</a><p>How cool! Really great work.</p>
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bret derp
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bret ill fix that
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aaronpk i don't think I support comment updates yet /
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bret well, I'll fix on my end, and resend a mention when you do
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aaronpk i think i want to store versions of comments internally so I can at least see if something was updated
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bret That makes sense. Especially if you reply to it
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aaronpk oh yea hah
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aaronpk I like how twitter avoided that problem entirely by not allowing updates
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bret I was playing around with my git repo for my site last night
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bret I can go back to any point in time and see what the site looked like
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aaronpk oh yea good point
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bret More of a curiosity than anything else
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bret Say I have a list of stories on a page marked with h-entry. Does each story have to have an h-card in it? Or could I somehow reference a single h-card somewhere else on the page in each h-entry?
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aaronpk bret: this should have the info you need http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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bret thanks
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aaronpk not sure how many people have actually implemented that algorithm yet, but that's the right idea
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erikmaarten aaronpk: I think you do support updates :) I tried resending a webmention to you, and although an already_registered error was returned the mention was updated
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aaronpk oh dear
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bret so you can link to another page with the h-card
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bret in theory
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bret neat
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aaronpk erikmaarten: do you know what page you sent it to?
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erikmaarten yes, I have it here somewhere, one second ...
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erikmaarten http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/3/
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erikmaarten I noticed my microformatting wasn't quite ok, so I tried resending and was a bit surprised that it updated on the spot :)
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronpk aha!
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aaronpk figured it out
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aaronpk when I check if the site links to my page, that part of the code goes and updates the remote file on disk. so by the time my code replies "already registered" the file has already been updated
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aaronpk guess i'll need to re-evaluate that whole flow now that we have the CRUD spec
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bret woops
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aaronpk where did the whole thing about CRUD go on the wiki?
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aaronpk oh i think it's just inline here http://indiewebcamp.com/comment
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erikmaarten I think I might just enable deleting and updating for a short time period after the original webmention
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aaronpk that seems safer
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erikmaarten and also, there is no risk of losing important parts of conversations
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aaronparecki.com created /CRUD (+344) "Created page with "{{stub}} CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete [[comments]] and [[posts]]. == Create == * [[comment#Make_a_comment]] * [[posts]] == Read == * [[comment..."" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /crud (+18) "redirect crud -> CRUD" (view diff)
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aaronpk there we go, that makes it easier to find
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erikmaarten working on a filter for arbitrary number of tags/categories -- proved trickier than I thought ...
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 3 hours, 56 minutes ago: - there are still a few more things left.
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caseorganic !tell yes - just a very few
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek caseorganic, sadly true
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tantek who is yes?
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yes hello
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Loqi yes: caseorganic left you a message 1 minute ago: - just a very few
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tantek heh
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tantek hey Loqi, you can be spoofed for !tell message delivery
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Loqi dude
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caseorganic tantek: woah - that's fantastic. i'm going to be using this in the future
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sandeepshetty !tell tantek: (Re: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship) Why not move 3.1.3 up and make it 3.1 and push the rest of the rules down?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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sandeepshetty tantek: Just left you a msg
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tantek sandeepshetty because there's an expectation that an hCard at the destination of the rel-author will be richer (e.g. have an avatar) than the one on the post page
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Loqi tantek: sandeepshetty left you a message 1 minute ago: (Re: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship) Why not move 3.1.3 up and make it 3.1 and push the rest of the rules down?
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tantek because if they're using rel-author, they literally may only have a link
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tantek and one of the primary use-cases of authorship discovery is to retrieve an avatar for the person
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sandeepshetty makes sense. thanks. I keep forgetting that rels are meant to point ->
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sandeepshetty :p
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sandeepshetty actually I was thinking in the context of a feed when it usually points to the same (home) page
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sandeepshetty (h-feed on home page)
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tantek sandeepshetty - good questions. I'm documenting use-cases and design notes on the authorship page as a result.
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sandeepshetty It looks like the h-feed p-name on sandeep.io will have to be hidden because I can't think of a place to add it in the content other than the html.head.title tag
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+2054) "explicitly document use-cases and design notes to provide background into why the authorship algorithm works the way it does." (view diff)
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tantek sandeep that can work actually
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tantek <html class="h-feed"> … <title class="p-name">sandeep.io</title>
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tantek try it
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tantek is working on fixing / updating / improving his reply posting code today.
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sandeepshetty oh.. that's great.. didn't think of applying it to html and head tags
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sandeepshetty not used to applying class attribute to non-body tags
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tantek as of HTML5, class is allowed on <html> <head> <title> <meta> etc., and as of microformats2, parsers are required to support it
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tantek get it working and I'll add your site as an example of how to do so on the microformats h-feed page :)
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sandeepshetty so other than uf how do adding classes to non-body tags help?
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tantek browsers have styled those elements for years, so you can use CSS also
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sandeepshetty tantek: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/
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sandeepshetty tantek: what does it mean to style those elements when they are not visible (except maybe title)?
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tantek they are only not visible because they are display:none by default in the UA stylesheet
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tantek parsed microformats looking good!
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sandeepshetty hmm.. just noticed the display:none.. since the head only has tags.. nothing wil show up though and I tried adding some free-form content inside head but that messes up the dom
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tantek yes it does - HTML doesn't really support free form content there
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tantek due to backcompat reasons
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tantek thanks sandeepshetty. h-feed page updated.
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sandeepshetty hmm.. the fallback to treat title as p-name means one more pass at the html (especially if you're using php-mf2... how about also an alternative to use the page's URL as p-name?
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tantek what do you mean by fallback?
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sandeepshetty when h-feed is missing
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sandeepshetty (parsing rules)
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tantek ah yes - that's reasonable
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pdurbin sandeepshetty: just saw your note at http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2013-06-29
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pdurbin you're welcome anytime :)
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sandeepshetty tantek: #microformats and it's wiki receives a lot of spam :)
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sandeepshetty how do they get past the recaptha on the wiki?
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tantek they are all done by hand by a human
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tantek I think any new wiki I start I will require indieauth
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tantek or at least relmeauth / web sign-in
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sandeepshetty pdurbin: was meaning to ask sivoais about a real world implementation like that... will drop later maybe.
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tantek aaronpk - thanks for starting the CRUD article - had been meaning to do that :)