#indiewebcamp 2013-08-10

2013-08-10 UTC
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tantek.com
edited /like (+61) "/* Ben Werdmuller */ need example permalink cc: benwerd"
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werd.io
edited /like (+93) "Le permalink"
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shaners
tantek: that makes sense. esp the point of implicitly up voting Facebook by a[href]ing to them
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shaners
aaronpk: does the mf2 parser you use search by tag only or can you do css like search?
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tantek.com
edited /like (+500) "document Experimental Markup for likes as in use by existing indieweb sites"
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shaners
aaronpk: i.e., $("*[rel=me]") in query would find <link>s and <a>s, right?
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tantek
re: /responses (e.g. likes, rsvps etc.), I'm starting to lean towards rejecting using rel for anything resembling a property of a post (h-entry)
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tantek
and instead trying the path being explored by sandeepshetty and others about using new properties instead for each response type
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tantek
e.g. class="u-like" on a link to something that is being liked
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shaners
that last bit is what i've always planned for Homesteading, when i got to webactions
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tantek
or implying the special reply type by the presence of another property, e.g. p-rsvp for rsvps
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tantek
rather than adding new rel values that mean something special inside of a post
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tantek
based on the awkwardness / difficulty of the brainstorming we've tried to do in http://indiewebcamp.com/responses - it feels like we're working too hard there for too little benefit
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tantek
anyway, that was the insight I had and wanted to see what others thought about it
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tantek
now that Mozilla's Social API has been expanded to have a "Save Bookmark" button (which some are saying is similar to like/favorite), it makes sense to try to sort this out a bit more
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tantek.com
edited /responses (+222) "/* Brainstorming */ noted my change of opinion"
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shaners
tantek: my plans for webactions are three main one: repost, reply, bookmark. bookmark can be optionally tagged with: read-later, watch-later, fave/like, private
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shaners
bookmark is my collection for several "actions"
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tantek
benwerd - you seem to have two embedded hyperlinks to the same thing here: http://werd.io/view/51d1fd3dbed7de817a526da2
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tantek
search for u-like
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href
so i'm working on a deployer/hosting service for static generators
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href
and xtof got the idea of adding a WebMention api to that
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href
i'll definitely work on that :)
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benwerd
tantek - so I do
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benwerd
thanks
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shaners
benwerd: what are <wbr> tags?
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tantek
shaners - will be interesting to see what buttons you publish on your permalinks
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tantek
I've also got sketches for what buttons I want to publish as part of my permalink UI, but haven't implemented yet
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shaners
tantek: yeah… one day. ;)
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href
is there is a "client-side"(js) webmention API definied ?
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tantek
the "View on Twitter" links are essentially the placeholder where the buttons are going to go
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tantek
so even if you can't "favorite" from my permalinks, you can still "View on Twitter" and favorite there.
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tantek
small steps
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shaners
tantek: re: twitter, agreed
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tantek
(and not being ashamed of taking small steps even while others leap forward :) )
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@malexander1219
RT @jmertic: Thanks to the #osfw3c and #distill13 for the great events this week. Excited to have been a part of them!
(twitter.com/_/status/365989335616585730)
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shaners
holy shit. that's actually a thing?! who knew!
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tantek
benwerd - so I'm no longer convinced of the utility (cost/benefit) of things like rel="object-of-like"
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tantek
above and beyond just having properties like "u-like"
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benwerd
tantek - understood. I think that makes sense
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benwerd
keep it simple
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benwerd
may include both for backwards compatibility for now
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shaners
benwerd: backward compatibility with what?
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tantek
I don't think anyone is consuming the rel object-of-* values
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tantek
might be best to drop them before anyone does
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tantek
shaners, right.
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benwerd
isn't sandeep?
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benwerd
anyhoo, I'll make that change tonight
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shaners
i think it's funny that sandeep was the like 4th person or something to implement webmentions and he says he's "late to the party" http://www.sandeep.io/32
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tantek
benwerd - pretty sure sandeep is only looking for the u-like markup
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benwerd
then it shall be wiped
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benwerd
amount of beer I consume in Oakland tonight permitting.
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tantek
shaners - I think he's saying "a little late" because he did it ~2 months after the first set of folks getting it working
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shaners
years from now we'll look back and laugh
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tantek
I think also because he wrote the webmentions spec
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shaners
stuffing a url in a url argument smells funny
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tantek
shaners none of the example "like" posts do that so I'm not sure what you mean. http://indiewebcamp.com/like#IndieWeb_Experiments
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tantek
shaners AFAIK no one is doing that so it's not a "problem" yet. :)
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shaners
great!
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tantek
his post proposed a bunch of things, some of which have gotten some uptake
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tantek
so let's focus on those
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shaners
my bad.
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tantek.com
edited /responses (+4) "/* Related Posts */ fix close tags"
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benwerd
removed object-of-like, fixed the bug
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benwerd
thanks for the heads up
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+55) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)"
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tantek.com
edited /like (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)"
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aaronpk
tantek: your thoughts on rel match what I've been thinking. I haven't really found a reason for rel=object-of-like or anything yet, I was planning to do u-like and such when I get to it
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)"
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aaronpk
also because rel values apply to the page, so showing anything in a list view can't use the actual rel="" tag
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)"
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shaners
aaronpk +1
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tantek
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 196 karma
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tantek
shaners - for these same reasons we may need to iterate on XFN and make u-* based rather than just rel value based. (your example with rel=spouse made me think about this again)
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shaners
hahaha
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aaronpk
shaners: wrt <link> tag, yes, something like $("*[rel=me]") would work. I just have to figure out the syntax for that in the parser
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tantek
can I just say that I think it's hilarious that you're POSSEing to Medium?
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aaronpk
shaners: right now i'm using Mechanize which has a ".links" property off a page: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/blob/master/lib/relparser.rb#L113
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shaners
tantek: you sure can ;)
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benwerd
wait, what?
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benwerd
shaners - are you doing it manually, or ..?
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shaners
aaronpk: yes
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shaners
benwerd: yes
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benwerd
ah, ok :)
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shaners
copy / pasta!
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shaners
also, manually (for now) POSSEing to wp.com
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tantek.com
created /Medium (+445) "stub with POSSE, IndieWeb example"
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shaners
aaronpk: using Nokogiri, you can do this:
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shaners
doc = Nokogiri::HTML(open("http://iamshane.com"))
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shaners
links = doc.css("[rel=me]").map{ |t| t.attr("href") }
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tantek.com
edited /WordPress (+351) "/* WordPress hosting service */ add POSSE, IndieWeb Examples"
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tantek
shaners, your manual POSSEing has been documented.
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shaners
i see!
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shaners
i also have to hand crank my modem to get any internets :P
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tantek
somewhere I thought I saw a handcrank USB charger - you know, for when we have power outages (but cell towers still work thanks to their backup batteries)
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tantek
also a good reason to have a external laptop battery as well
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href
› 1
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tantek
aaronpk your "custom search engine" hack for replies is hilariously awesome :)
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aaronpk
i'm gonna call it good there for a while, that'll get me pretty far and I can start working on other stuff
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aaronpk
actually I might turn it into a bookmarklet too, and use it from a button in my browser
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tantek
definitely
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aaronpk
actually I think it'll just work if I copy+paste that...
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tantek
would work well as a demo/prototype to encourage the Social API folks (cc: mixedpuppy) to add a "reply" button next to the "share" button.
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aaronpk
oh yea done
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aaronpk
implemented in 25 seconds
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aaronpk
cleans up his bookmarks bar to make a video
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tantek
bret you have some typos in http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/ - missing a couple of es
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tantek
perhaps you can try updating it s/reciving indiweb/receiving indieweb/
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tantek
and rewebmentioning http://www.sandeep.io/123 to see if sandeep has the "update" part of comment CRUD working :)
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aaronpk
oh dear, I re-read it twice and still didn't see the typos
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm looking forward to when someone implements: http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases#minor_edits with a whitelist of indieauth domain sign-ins :)
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tantek
theoretically if bret had you and me listed with minor-edit permissions, we could fix his comment and send the webmention for him :)
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aaronpk
indeed. my guess is benwerd is most likely to first since he has a nice post editing interface already. I can't even edit my posts from a web page yet ;
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tantek
yeah, web-based editing UI is kind of a pre-req for this.
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tantek
but that would require idno to support indieauth sign-ins :)
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aaronpk
also true :)
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benwerd
again, idno does have full permissions under the hood - just need to expose them and wire up auth.
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aaronpk
it's on the list
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benwerd
it's definitely on the list.
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benwerd
er, auth on mine.
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aaronpk
that's what I was referring to as well :)
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benwerd
oh, ok :)
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aaronpk
ooh already has permissions too? yea you are well set up for that
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tantek
that's going to make for an epic demo
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benwerd
yeah, everything's hardcoded to public and solo edit perms in the actions, but with an actual interface on permissions, you could have all kinds of nuances
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tantek
way more effective than the "roles" discussions that were going on yesterday at the workshop
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benwerd
I. hate. roles
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benwerd
just doesn't jibe with how I think
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benwerd
about the world, or software
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tantek
benwerd - would appreciate your reviewing of http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases in that case
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benwerd
I have to run in a mo, but will add that to the reading list after aaronpk's auth docs
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tantek
and how many of those (and in what priority order) you would find useful for idno
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benwerd
will absolutely do that
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aaronpk
oh yea I zoned out for most of the roles stuff
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aaronpk
just froze my avocado chocolate mousse and now it's basically ice cream :) :)
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bret
oh thanks tantek, i was totally wasted by the end of that day
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bret
also prose has a bug right now where spelling and grammar underlines are broken :p
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tantek
I like this phrase: "a web-wide #indieweb reply button" from https://twitter.com/Sociability/status/365604634418622465
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@Sociability
★ There is a browser extension that could be a web-wide #indieweb reply button: https://github.com/barnabywalters/web-action-hero-toolbelt (via @kevinmarks)
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tantek
bret - np :)
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tantek
thank you kevinmarks for such good live-tweeting
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aaronpk
agreed!
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benwerd
kevinmarks = event documentation superhero
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tantek
finding some good content on http://tagboard.com/indieweb
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aaronpk
oh hey they search app.net too
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aaronpk
i should make loqi search app.net
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Loqi
it is probable
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tantek
still amazes me what the power is of naming something that was previously unnamed. I suppose same impulse motivates bikeshedding.
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aaronpk
naming things is super important
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tantek
once you name it, it becomes a potential building block
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aaronpk
hm, how do I reply to this guy on app.net
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aaronpk
my replies feed is not syndicated to app.net cause that would be noisy (lots of replies to non-app.net users), and even if it was, it wouldn't thread as a reply to his post
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tantek
why wouldn't it thread?
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aaronpk
cause the pourover thing doesn't set a reply-to-id
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@EvanLovely
RT @brianjesse: is there a simple app that just sends #ios notification of new items in a feed? #rss #indieweb thx
(twitter.com/_/status/366002693761806337)
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tantek
a-ha! so we need to figure out / add something to http://indiewebcamp.com/App.net#POSSE_to_ADN that is the equivalent of http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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tantek
or is there a way to make a feature request in pourover?
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aaronpk
might be
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aaronpk
the one downside to pourover is that it's all pubsubhubbub based so it's reading my xml feed
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tantek
point out that we're doing this with Twitter the hard way, would be nice to do it with App.net the "easy way" :)
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aaronpk
probably what I should do is drop my xml feed and create it like I create my JSON feed, running it through a parser rather than having it be a separate view of my site
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tantek
looks for voidfiles
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tantek
aaronpk it is probable
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aaronpk
really we need a good h-entry -> atom service
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tantek
sandeep built on
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tantek
s/on/one
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: sandeep built one
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aaronpk
i should probably read our wiki more
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Loqi
fo sho
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tantek
always pleased when something happens to be documented in our wiki at the most obvious place ;)
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aaronpk
i must not have the h-feed markup
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aaronpk
rigs up a new bookmarklet to pass pages to the mf2 parser
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aaronpk
one-button mf2 parser for my browser
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aaronpk
javascript:(function()%7Bwindow.location="http://pin13.net/mf2/?url="+encodeURIComponent(window.location.href)%7D)();
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aaronpk
tantek: anyway, we're going to need a way for the atom feed to specify an "in reply to" URL
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tantek
Atom has a link rel in-reply-to
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tantek
check the in-reply-to research on microformats
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@t
thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1)
(twitter.com/_/status/366004959185076224)
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aaronpk
I don't see much about in-reply-to for atom
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@kevinmarks
RT @t: thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1)
(twitter.com/_/status/366006412964409344)
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tantek
aaronpk, gimme a sec
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bret
aaronpk: or anyone in portland recommend a way to get home at 2 in the morning from PDX?
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bret
my flight got staggered
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aaronpk
bret: flying out of SFO?
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bret
is there like a shared shuttle that would be cheaper?
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aaronpk
don't know. it'll be like $30 or so if you call radio cab and ask for the radio flyer rate
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tantek
bret - can you demand the airline give you a travel voucher for the inconvenience?
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bret
Do we have a wiki page of dead or dying standards, and what went wrong?
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tantek
since they disrupted your plans?
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tantek
bret - better to just document each dead/dying standard on its own, along with the modern replacement
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bret
ha well, i was gettingg in at 1 not sure if its that much a diff
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tantek
bret - doesn't hurt to ask
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aaronpk
unfortunately it's SFO's fault, not the airline's
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bret
tantek ill try though :)
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tantek
too bad james_m_snell is gone
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bret
I could say that the person who was picking me up couldn't do it later
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bret
Sandeep has crud :)
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tantek
bret - woohoo!
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tantek
crud receiving even
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aaronpk
aw man why does it have to be in an xml namespace? <thr:in-reply-to>
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aaronpk
bret: you could ask for them to pay for your cab ride haha
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bret
PLus its like, I can't tell the cap when Im going to be in
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bret
"your flight will be late, but maybe not"
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aaronpk
bret: it's easy to call a cab when you land. as soon as you walk off the plane call radio cab and they'll be downstairs by the time you walk out
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aaronpk
i do that all the time
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aaronpk
holy crap i'm glad I got them to rebook my flight last night... it was supposed to be the 8:10pm flight and they ended up leaving SFO at 2:52am
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tantek
aaronpk - attempting to load up your Atom feed with more semantics is going to be a painful path
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tantek
Atom XML is a dead-end
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bret
OPML!
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tantek
maybe a better approach is to ask for pourover to start consuming h-entry
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tantek
bret - feel free to create a /OPML page on the wiki :)
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aaronpk
tantek: I agree, but I'm looking for a path-of-least-resistance approach for app.net
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bret
if they do h-atom
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tantek
it may not be least resistance if no one is implementing the atom threading extensions currently
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aaronpk
they already set up infrastructure to consume a PuSH feed of atom
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bret
ah, right
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tantek
besides, asking them to implement something which is an apparently dead standard is not necessarily a good approach either
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tantek
reduces reputation capital etc.
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tantek
is going out to get a sandwich
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aaronpk
we need push for h-entry
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aaronpk
which technically shouldn't need to be any different than existing PuSH
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aaronpk
because I don't think the resource that is PuSH enabled is required to be Atom
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tantek
aaronpk - indeed - been asking Brett Slatkin / Julien for that for a while now
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bret
aaronpk: would julienne be willing to work on that?
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aaronpk
well the good news is there's a new giant source of h-entrys!
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aaronpk
app.net!
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tantek
right!
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bret
julian*
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bret
so PuSH hubs are not content agnostic?
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aaronpk
PuSH is content agnostic
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aaronpk
"Similarly, for HTML pages..."
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aaronpk
can I also say thank you to the people that decided to use regular form-encoding for the PuSH setup requests vs xmlrpc?
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aaronpk
yea we can just use this
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bret
Also wtf is pubsubhub?
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bret
#osfw3c
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aaronpk
oh the guy that reinvented it?
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bret
i felt bad for him
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bret
How are we handling non-response, but directed at a person posts? Just web mention the root domain for that person right?
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aaronpk
think of webmention as a way of letting the person know your page linkde to their page, nothing more
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aaronpk
so the link is there, they're going to find it one way or another. sending a webmention just makes it more realtime
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bret
Tried to do that to benwerd the other day, but he wasn't accepting web mentions unless it was attached to an item
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aaronpk
ah yea
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bret
Its more like an indieweb mention, with an optional reply context rather than comments….. how does twitter talk about this stuff?
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bret
on notes
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aaronpk
if you @reply someone on twitter they see it in the list of their mentions, just like you'd expect
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bret
but that not a comment, right
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aaronpk
a comment has to be in response to a post
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aaronpk
what's the issue?
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bret
I'm confused on the difference between a comment and a reply
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aaronpk
we've had this discussion before
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bret
other than one is a reply to a post
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aaronpk
also does it really matter?
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bret
probrably not :P
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bret
thanks aaronpk
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aaronpk
new problem: my posts do not have a "u-syndication" link to the app.net version, because my code has no idea that app.net syndicated my post
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aaronpk
possible solution: app.net sends me a webmention when they pull in one of my posts. since I'd parse it and see their u-url link back to my post, I can recognize that and add the u-syndication link in my post
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aaronpk
!tell voidfiles what happened to the u-url markup on the link back to my post? I thought the "from aaronparecki.com" text used to have a class of "u-url". Example of parsed post here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falpha.app.net%2Faaronpk%2Fpost%2F8667079
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
man I really like sandeep's format of super short articles
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aaronpk
a nice side effect is http://www.sandeep.io/indieweb/ ends up being a miniblog of indieweb stuff
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aaronpk
!tell barnabywalters you should syndicate this reply to indienews since the original article is also on indienews! http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RPKPs/ which brings up a question of whether that kind of thing should happen automatically!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
e.g. my post is in-reply-to post X. I parse post X and see a u-syndication link that I recognize (Twitter, IndieNews, App.net, etc) and if I recognize it then I also include a u-syndication link to the same place
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aaronpk
that would enable automatic threading of conversations on twitter, app.net, indienews, etc
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aaronpk
come to think of it this is already described on the posse to twitter page
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aaronpk
it shoud just be made more generic
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tantek
really needs to split the comment page into comment vs. reply pages
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@veganstraightedge
RT @t: thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1)
(twitter.com/_/status/366025630548111361)
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tantek
it's context. reply is the permalink. comment is the syndicated copy shown below the original post.
shaners, tilgovi and earplugs joined the channel
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tantek
bret, still got a typo - http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/ s/indiweb/indieweb :)
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+124) "/* Reply distinction */ simplify existing distinctions, add permalink vs. syndicated copy distinction for reply vs. comment terminology"
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shaners joined the channel
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@CjopCjop
. @t What do you mean by ‘domain tweeting’ I’m curious. #OwnYourData
(twitter.com/_/status/366068101512560643)
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bret
thanks tantek, major fail :(
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tantek
no, just partial ;)
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bret
btw, SFO basically sucks
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tantek
sorry about that
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bret
not your fault :p The outlet situation is crazy
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bret
(editing my system dictionary to autocorrect indiweb->indieweb
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shaners
tantek bret aaronpk et al: anyone of you wanna do a little html+mf2 audit of a couple urls for me on my site?
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bret
ill poke my head in and look
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shaners
i ran my articles h-feed thru h-reader and the resulting feed only had headings. not bodies.
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shaners
single article is slightly different: http://sbb.me/b4RR1
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shaners
just, you know, sanity check them. any glaring mistakes or missing bits?
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bret
thats classic uF right?
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shaners
whoa. that's some weird new shit.
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shaners
yikes.
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shaners
tantek: what are your feels about pubdate attr?
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shaners
should i just move on or hold out and keep using it?
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bret
I need to start writing some rake tasks in travisCI to validate every time I publish
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shaners
bret: it should be uf and uf2
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bret
its not obvious what is wrong to me, but starting with the validation might help
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bret
benwerd… whats with the email :p
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tantek
pubdate attribute has been dropped from HTML5
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tantek
bret - did you resend a webmention?
#
bret
not yet
#
tantek
ah ok - hence it's still typo on sandeep's site
#
bret
on the phone
#
bret
working on autogeneration of one liner webmentions
#
bret
before I send the update
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tantek
ooh nice!
#
bret
Ill be sure to update the wiki, but it requires one more standard cli tool
#
bret
xmllint
#
tantek
huh. for the webmentions?
#
tantek
rewatching Darwin's Dangerous Idea
#
tantek
love this quote: "given enough time, and innumerable small events, anything can take place by the laws of nature"
#
bret
tantek: for discovery
#
bret
tantek: right now its a two step process, I have my site generate this: http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
#
bret
every two lines provides all the nessisary info to send a web mention for a post
#
bret
I want to get it down to one line per post
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tantek
ah ok
#
shaners
bret: and then you run those by hand?
#
bret
thats what I am doing right now, yes, but once I get the one liners, it is one step closer to automating
#
bret
Ben suggested xmlint, but if anyone else recommends a way to parse the href out of a rel="http://webmention.org/" with curl I'm all ears
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tantek
from which you can check the rels dictionary
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tantek
and lookup ["http:\/\/webmention.org\/"]
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tantek
and just grab the first item of that array [0]
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tantek
http:\/\/pingback.me\/bcomnes\/webmention
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bret
since this is only temporary, I don't think it would be that offensive to use pin13 as part of the manual flow
#
@sistarielle
RT @w3c: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Standards Workshop, etc. http://t.co/2tUC…
(twitter.com/_/status/366082912736653315)
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bret
woop!
#
bret
tantek: any recommendation on CLI toosl to parse json?
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tommorris
bret: for debugging, I recommend `python -mjson.tool` - will throw an error if the JSON isn't valid, and it pretty prints it
#
tommorris
otherwise, Your Favourite Programming Langauge. Ruby, Python etc.
#
bret
the bigger question is how to get these pairs of commands into one line: http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
#
bret
i might be too burnt out to work on this tonight
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aaronpk
bret: I think I can hack something up with sed
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aaronpk
although you know if you're already running a ruby stack to generate the jekyll site you might as well do this in ruby
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bret
I'm not always on the same computer with ruby
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aaronpk
ah right cause of prose.io
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aaronpk
bret: ok this gives you the webmention endpoint:
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aaronpk
curl -i -s http://www.sandeep.io/123 | grep 'rel="http://webmention.org/"' | sed 's/rel="http:\/\/webmention.org\/"//' | grep -o -E 'https?://[^ ">]+' | sort | uniq
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aaronpk
so here is your one-liner:
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aaronpk
curl -i -d "source=http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/&target=http://www.sandeep.io/123" `curl -i -s http://www.sandeep.io/123 | grep 'rel="http://webmention.org/"' | sed 's/rel="http:\/\/webmention.org\/"//' | grep -o -E 'https?://[^ ">]+' | sort | uniq`
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neuro`
'morning (ugt indeed)
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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aaronpk
crazy script lol
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tommorris
curses at Java some more for not having closures. ;)
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neuro`
Good!
#
bret
aaronpk: it only works on sandeep's site.
#
bret
maybe there is just too much variance to do this with just the html
#
bret
need to uF parse it first?
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aaronpk
let me see
#
bret
Ben suggested using xmlint
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bret
but i am just getting confused by that
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aaronpk
but you also have to look at the http header which that won't help you with
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aaronpk
hm it found werd.io fine
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aaronpk
it finds mine...
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aaronpk
which didn't it work with?
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bret
oh bullshit, SFO wifi disconnected as I was testing
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bret
your right, my bad
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aaronpk
hahah oh yea it does that
#
aaronpk
was driving me crazy last night
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aaronpk
was impressed the wifi was fast and stable though, that was nice
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bret
1475 to portland now leaving at 1:10
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aaronpk
oh no, united or alaska?
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bret
united
#
aaronpk
that happened to me yesterday :(
#
aaronpk
except my 8:10 alaska flight ended up departing at 2:50am. luckily I transferred to the united flight and left at like 11:30pm
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aaronpk
remind me never to fly to SFO again. stick with OAK
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bret
I'm going to go talk to them
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bret
did you have to pay to do that?
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aaronpk
no, alaska offered to switch me
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aaronpk
unfortunately I don't think there are any other options going back to portland tonight. but yea go talk to them
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bret
maybe at least get this cab paid for
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aaronpk
alright i'm out. goodnight and good luck getting back to pdx!
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Loqi
goodnight!
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bret.io
edited /webmention (+303) "/* How to Test Webmentions */ Added one-liner webmentions, thanks aaron!"
(view diff)
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#
tantek
greetings, I'm up late for various reasons, but that means I'm going through some indieweb thoughts in my queue
#
tantek
first-up, thoughts on expanding POSSE to POSSE CRUD
#
tantek
I'll write-up the theory on the POSSE page, and a possible implementation on the Twitter page
#
tantek
or maybe I'll just explain it on the POSSE page, with Twitter as an example
#
tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+3059) "add POSSE CRUD thoughts"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /syndication-link-use-cases (+351) "Enable POSSE CRUD"
(view diff)
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tantek
thoughts posted. might try implementing it in the morning if it still makes sense :)
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tantek
!tell benwerd you in particular have a nice web UI for editing / deleting your posts, and you POSSE publish them, thus I'd be interested in your feedback on this full POSSE CRUD thinking: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
@t
posted thoughts on expanding #indieweb #POSSE to full POSSE #CRUD functionality: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD (ttk.me t4RT1)
(twitter.com/_/status/366138571071033344)
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hadleybeeman
tantek, are you all working on reader tools as well as publishing ones?
#
tantek
some folks are yes, as that is a logical step
#
tantek
personal reader tools in particular, integrated into the personal posting flow
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hadleybeeman
Dependent on outgoing APIs from silos? (And RSS/ATOM, etc)
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tantek
since integrated reading/posting UIs (e.g. Twitter, FB) have effectively obsoleted standalone "readers" (RSS readers/aggregators etc.)
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hadleybeeman
What does "personal reader" mean?
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tantek
it means it's on your site
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hadleybeeman
but pulling content from anywhere? (in any format?)
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tantek
folks building readers are starting with pulling from indieweb sources of course, for which all they need to do is read the h-entry content from the HTML
#
tantek
which most such folks are already doing for comments and reply-context scenarios
#
tantek
thus "reading" is just another view
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hadleybeeman
That makes sense.
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tantek
well that's f-d up - the first Google result for "reader" is Google Reader
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hadleybeeman
(I haven't thought through this part of the user journey before. I appreciate you entertaining my questions.)
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tantek
(before Adobe Reader)
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hadleybeeman
That's funny. The Indexing team obviously haven't caught up with the Product Strategy team.
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tantek
(first result)
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hadleybeeman
It's even better that the summary begins, "Google Reader has been discontinued."
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tantek
that's not what I see
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tantek
I see "A description for this result is not available because of this site's robots.txt – learn more."
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hadleybeeman
Odd. Maybe because I'm on google.co.uk?
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hadleybeeman
"Google Reader has been discontinued. We want to thank all our loyal fans. We understand you may not agree with this decision, but we hope you'll come to love ..."
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tommorris
tantek: yeah, google reader is top result for me too. ;)
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tommorris
I'm somewhat disappointed that the WP article for 'Reader (academic rank)' is so low on that page. ;)
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tantek.com
created /reader (+25) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - here you go: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader
#
tantek
pretty sure sandeepshetty or eschnou was working on integrated reading on their personal sites too
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tommorris
I'm using feedbin.me for my reading, and a very average iOS app called Mr Reader.
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tantek
!tell sandeepshetty if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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hadleybeeman
Thanks, tantek.
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tommorris
but building the reader into my site might make sense
#
tantek
!tell eschnou if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
tommorris - it's part of the whole replace having to use silo UX at all
#
tantek
if you had reading built into your own site, would you ever need to visit Twitter or touch a Twitter client again?
#
tantek
or could your own site provide you with a superset of Twitter-like functionality?
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tommorris
well twitter with better filtering and non-twitter sources.;)
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hadleybeeman
Oh, also, tantek — I saw some reference (of yours) somewhere to an anti-prism article... something like #ownyourdata #yestheydo —
#
tantek
exactly, superset
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hadleybeeman
has anyone written on the indieweb and government surveillance?
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - have you not seen PRISM break?
#
tantek
it hit fastco today I think
#
tantek
from none other than our own eschnou :)
#
hadleybeeman
Ah. A number of articles used that headline weeks ago, so I've tuned it out. Now I'm sorry.
#
tantek.com
edited /feed_reader (+541) "added some more indieweb perspective on why a personal reader"
(view diff)
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bret
Made it to pdx :)
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tantek
bret - woot!
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Loqi
woot
#
bret
Waiting for a cab
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tommorris
I fixed my site's crapy twitter posting earlier btw.
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tantek
hadleybeeman - checkout those two articles
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tommorris
some of my posts weren't being syndicated out.
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hadleybeeman
So the general approach is "if you do it yourself, then you'll be able to control who has access?" (Well, moreso)
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tommorris
I'm sure that the NSA can get my SSH keys. But it may be a tiny bit harder than them getting my Gmail password.
#
bret
tantek: Do you know if iwc2013 was ever written up by the guy from wired?
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tommorris
That said, the best policy is to treat ALL internet communications as possibly public
#
tantek
bret - haven't seen it - maybe he's doing it for the print version?
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tantek
tommorris - unfortunately true
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tommorris
If you wouldn't say it in front of your mother or it would cause you great embarassment if it were on page one of the NYT, don't put it on the Internet
#
tommorris
has learned this the hard way a few times. ;)
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bret
It's insane that I can't set up my own zrtp server in an afternoon
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hadleybeeman
tommorris: for us, yes. I agree. But for planning out an internet that will work for the world: some semblance of trust is important.
#
bret
Anyone understand what the open mustard seed thing was?
#
tommorris
incidentally, this is one of the reasons why I got very annoyed by a lot of federated-social-networking stuff. every vaguely sane proposal was blocked by privacy people because it failed to solve the problem of privacy.
#
tommorris
even though you basically can't solve the privacy problem
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tommorris
it's not a technical problem, it's a human problem
#
tommorris
it stems from the fact that people are stupid and will do stupid things with technology.
#
bret
tommorris: Are you using rdfa on your site?
#
tantek
tommorris - so we eventually started to ignore the privacy people because they didn't selfdogfood
#
hadleybeeman
Well, I'm not just thinking about sharing content on the social web. Bank transactions, purchases, diplomacy... all this stuff depends on the same infrastructure.
#
tommorris
bret: yep, a bit.
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tantek
worked as a good filter
#
bret
tommorris: how come?
#
tommorris
bret: I have marked up my dietary preferences and sexual orientation using RDFa, because why not? ;)
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tantek.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+316) "add PRISM break articles related to the indieweb"
(view diff)
#
tommorris
bret: how come I publish RDFa or how come <something about privacy>?
#
bret
I don't know why not :p
#
bret
Rdfa
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - in general this is pretty well-curated list: http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
#
tommorris
bret: because I'm a die-hard semweb masochist freak.
#
tommorris
albeit a practical die-hard semweb masochist freak. that's why I publish microformats too.
#
hadleybeeman
Anyway, overall I'm trying to find ways to take what is happening here, in the indieweb community, and extrapolate it into the government-based "how should the Internet work?" conversations.
#
tommorris
and also why I'm writing a microformats2 parser
#
tantek
tommorris - that being said, I'd be interested to know your opinion of trying to use h-card gender/sex properties and note what's lacking
#
hadleybeeman
So even the privacy stuff (which may be out of scope here) can grow from what you're doing.
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - yes it likely can
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bret
What advantages does rdf have?
#
tantek
it's just that focusing on privacy first is a dead-end
#
hadleybeeman
Here, yes.
#
tantek
bret - I see you're committing to keeping yourself awake ;)
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tommorris
Diaspora was privacy-first.
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bret
tantek: Unfortunately. Waiting for a cab.
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tommorris
bret: RDF lets you express richer semantics, at the cost of increased complexity.
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tantek
tommorris - the eating preferences thing I'd like to figure out too
#
tantek
since I do publicly post my eating preferences
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bret
tommorris: do you also do micro data?
#
tantek
and I feel like there's some sort of nerd pizza-ordering application potential that could read people's preferences
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bret
Haha!
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tommorris
bret: no to microdata.
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bret
Slash pizza
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tommorris
tantek: I published an RDFa-ish schema at http://schema.tommorris.org/diet
#
bret
The schema.org guy got railed on this week
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tantek
tommorris - did you do any research of existing dietary formats/schema? e.g. airline preferences? w3c conference preferences?
#
Loqi
barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 8 hours, 21 minutes ago: you should syndicate this reply to indienews since the original article is also on indienews! http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RPKPs/ which brings up a question of whether that kind of thing should happen automatically!
#
hadleybeeman
yes, please! to pizza ordering apps. No gluten on mine, thanks.
#
tantek
any preferences would need to capture nuances like allergy, religious, etc.
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tommorris
Well, I figure it's one of those incremental things.
#
tommorris
Being able to get a rough idea of the number of vegetarians and vegans would be a start
#
tantek
where allergy really means none at all - safety issue
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barnabywalters
religious aversion to pizza? that’s not something I’ve come across before
#
tantek
religious might mean if it's unnoticeable, don't ask / don't tell
#
barnabywalters
good morning indiewebcamp
#
tommorris
hey barnabywalters
#
tantek
barnabywalters, e.g. religious aversion to use of any cooking / food prep utensils/facilities that have touched pork
#
tommorris
tantek: and, no, no research, I'm afraid.
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barnabywalters
ah, of course
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tommorris
well, also, religious preferences may include not eating at certain times
#
hadleybeeman
You know, actually, tommorris — finding restaurants for Sunday dinners would be so much easier if we could do this ad cross reference it against marked-up data from the venues
#
tantek
but in practice that's mostly a choice of don't tell me
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bret
Mmm pork
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tantek
tommorris - ah, classic semweb schema style then (make it up without research into priori art ;) )
#
tantek
s/priori/prior
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: tommorris - ah, classic semweb schema style then (make it up without research into prior art ;) )
#
tommorris
tantek: well, more publishing-my-own-personal-preferences-as-first-draft
#
tommorris
while leaving it open for others to tell me I'm wrong
#
bret
I wonder if it would be more helpful to run pump.io and help implement idieweb stuff their. Pondering that after this week
#
tommorris
using dbpedia for the values means there's a community who've thought about it a bit.
#
bret
There
#
hadleybeeman
How are you all running #indiewebcamp? Is it a proper barcamp, with sessions?
#
tantek
tommorris - I don't trust "thought about it" any more from folks who don't publish their work/research openly on the web
#
tantek
it's like, if you've thought about it, citation needed
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - two days. brainstorming and creating
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: do go along. it's fun. I'm very annoyed I'm going to be missing it.
#
tantek
3 min demos at the start of what people have working today, demos at the end of what people got working during the camp.
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hadleybeeman
Two days, tantek? I thought it was just Sunday.
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - what, you're not subscribed to the ical feed to the event? ;)
#
bret
tantek: Couldn't get that to work in gCal
#
tantek
(from the hCalendar obv)
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hadleybeeman
No. Just the lanyrd page. And watching the wiki page. (CLEARLYY not enough!) :)
#
tantek
bret - because gcal is dumb about robots
#
tantek
wiki page has been updated for a while
#
bret
GCal is dumb in a lot of ways
#
tantek
ah, as has the Lanyrd!
#
hadleybeeman
you're welcome for that :)
#
bret
hadleybeeman: Iwc is way fun. I has never done anything like it before.
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hadleybeeman
Hmm. I want to get some discussion going about what changes in governments/policy would support this. Internet governance is, in many ways, up for grabs. And there isn't enough clear thinking in the space.
#
hadleybeeman
Is that something we could use IWC for? Or is it hacking-on-your-own time?
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tommorris
I'm not sure what sort of relationship would exist between government/policy and indieweb. We could get David Cameron to stop tweeting and start POSSEing, maybe. ;)
#
tommorris
Or Obama. Or government departments.
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: RE syndicating comments to indienews, I added rel-syndication to that note and sent a webmention, the response said success but I can’t see the comment on news.indiewebcamp.com…?
#
tommorris
In fact, I know the BBC have had complaints about how much they push Twitter with people saying that it's kind of mad that license fee funded content is only available on a commercially run social network rather than on the ad-free (and corporate-surveillance-free) BBC website
#
barnabywalters
tommorris: yeah, I’ve always felt uncomfortable about how much the BBC use and promote twitter
#
tommorris
(but since when were principles important in social media land?)
#
bret
tantek: Do you give out your mifi password at events?
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: also, news.indiewebcamp.com said it couldn’t find an author mf for my reply so was using the domain name instead
#
@adrianshort
Lest anyone doubt the UK's technology leadership: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23601984 #globalrace /via @tommorris
#
tantek
bret - not usually unless we really need it for a demo or something
#
hadleybeeman
tommorris: think bigger. If the Indieweb problem to solve is that right now, the power is in the hands of a few companies...
#
tantek
hey bret - now that you've landed, would appreciate your thoughts on: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD
#
hadleybeeman
(and that has knock-on effects for ownership of data, central points for surveillance, etc.)
#
bret
I'm about to go to sleep but I will tomorrow
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - I'm afraid the kind of thinking you're asking for is pretty far out - at least until people involved in those circles start sefldogfooding.
#
tantek
bret - totally fair. I should be asleep but made the mistake (much earlier this evening) of watching ep1 of that Netflix Orange Black show - too disturbing :(
#
tommorris
hadleybeeman: yesterday, I spent an hour with my head inside a Java debugger. privacy and surveillance and public policy is a bit beyond my pay grade. :)
#
hadleybeeman
then one of the questions I think we should be asking is "how should this all be balanced out? Who should have the power? And what do we need to build to get us there?"
#
tantek
hadleybeeman - sounds like you should write a short blog post about that :)
#
tantek
and with that I'm going to try to actually get some sleep :/
#
hadleybeeman
Sleep well.
#
Loqi
don't let the bed bugs bite
#
hadleybeeman
tommorris, isn't this exactly the sort of thinking that started the indieweb movement in the first place?
#
tommorris
hadleybeeman: I'm not sure it was so much Edward Snowden and Wikileaks that started most of us off as getting irritated by Twitter's API changes and so on.
#
tommorris
it's frustration-driven-development rather than grand-ideology-driven-development
#
hadleybeeman
Sure. But the common thread is not having control over your own stuff, no?
#
tommorris
and more broadly, I'd like to own a lot more of my own data
#
tommorris
I'd much rather my health records were an encrypted USB stick that I could set the permissions on rather than a gigantic national database
#
tommorris
I'd rather like it if the British Library didn't keep meticulous records of every book I requested in the reading room
#
tommorris
or rather, they would notify me for my own records and then destroy their own records after 30 days
#
tommorris
I'd like it if I could get the records the government keeps on me, not as a one-off freedom-of-information or subject access request, but as a sort of WebHook-style API
#
tommorris
I'd like it if I could sign contracts digitally and deliver them in an encrypted way.
#
tommorris
I'd like it if the government and banks could trust my GPG signature more than they trusted my easily-impersonated physical signature
#
tommorris
Apparenlty, if you can write my name on a piece of paper, you can convince people that you are me for legal purposes.
#
hadleybeeman
And why, tommorris? Some of this is for simplicity sake — life gets easier for you. But ideologically, why is this how you think it should work for everyone?
#
barnabywalters
I’d like it if I could access the status of all the various tax/business/government stuff I have to do, visualise it and automate it
#
barnabywalters
but that’s convenience more than data control
#
hadleybeeman
There's a good (governmental) argument for convenience too, barnabywalters. It usually means more time for doing jobs/making money/economy growing.
#
hadleybeeman
(Oh, and happy voters, as well.)
#
tommorris
hadleybeeman: because there are certain expectations we have about how the world operates in physical space, and I'd like to see something similar on the internet.
#
tommorris
like, if you go into a bar and, say, drink a bit too much, you know that the bar owner isn't going to take the CCTV tapes and distribute them to friends for a laugh
#
tommorris
being able to see how the system operates means one can make decisions about how to live and act in a more informed way
#
tommorris
as for the privacy point, I think that anonymity is a great thing.
#
tommorris
one of the things I loved most about living in a city is relative anonymity
#
tommorris
I've lived in the countryside, in a small community, and I hate curtain-twitching gossips.
#
hadleybeeman
That's how I grew up too
#
tommorris
I dislike, say, libraries keeping records of all the books I borrow for the same reason I dislike nosy neighbours keeping tabs on who visits my house
#
hadleybeeman
Given that the capacity exists for keeping those records, I'm guessing you don't support pulling the capacity (all databases) out of libraries, right?
#
tommorris
no, but I'd like the ability to log in and say "forget everything before this date", or be able to download a usable copy of it
#
hadleybeeman
So would it be enough to solve the problem to say, "You're not allowed to use this data in that way? Or run these types of queries on it?"
#
tommorris
I'd like for the government to reach a point where they can trust me not to need that data. ;)
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hadleybeeman
But the libraries still need to now that someone likes all the different genres you like, so they can put books in the right libraries, no? </devil's advocate>
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barnabywalters
it would be enough for the data to be tangible — it needs to be obviously accessible, easy to read, easy to delete
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barnabywalters
but then there’s the question of “did I actually delete this or did they keep a copy”
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tommorris
(well, in the case of libraries, I don't think they should be driven exclusively or primarily by borrowing data but by the expert judgments of librarians and by the difficulty of acquisition in a free market.)
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tommorris
(that is, libraries exist to serve some kind of Platonic Knowledge and Taste rather than populist tastes.)
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hadleybeeman
Tommorris: and you would deprive them of usage data to inform their rx
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tommorris
(but that's an aside)
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hadleybeeman
S/rx/expert view
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tommorris
anonymized data is fine, sure. personally identifiable information shouldn't be
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tommorris
there's actually a big difference between here and the US
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tommorris
in the US, they delete library borrowing information very quickly after a person has returned a book - usually within a few days
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tommorris
when the US government after 9/11 wanted to use library borrowing records to identify terror suspects, the librarians were courageous in saying no
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hadleybeeman
Barnabywalters: Is that a question of whether or not you trust them to execute your delete command?
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tommorris
and saying that borrowing a Qu'ran doesn't make you a suspect, it only means you are a person who wants to read a Qu'ran.
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tommorris
here: libraries keep extensive records of what you read and hand them over to the police on request.
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tommorris
the problem is that the inference done on this data isn't visible to the subjects of the data
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hadleybeeman
(I thought that was happening in the US? though memory is from 10 years agoh~
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barnabywalters
hadleybeeman: yes
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: it was, and librarians very valiantly refused the USA PATRIOT Act demands, and deleted records rather than hand them over. Librarians are badasses.
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barnabywalters
tommorris: were they labelled traitors?
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hadleybeeman
Barnabywalters: And that's because you know (as a developer) that keeping a copy is a relatively trivial thing to do, right?
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tommorris
Oh, most probably.
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barnabywalters
hadleybeeman: indeed
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hadleybeeman
(that's awesome, tommorris)
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hadleybeeman
Right, barnabywalters: if I were sitting next to you, I could pick up your laptop and walk off with it, could
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hadleybeeman
Nt
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hadleybeeman
Couldn't I?
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barnabywalters
hadleybeeman: well, I wouldn’t be very happy about it, but it could happen :)
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: that reminds me, at my birthday party, did you meet @shimgray?
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hadleybeeman
Understandably. :) And we have a) expectations of behaviour that tell me I shouldn't, and b) laws and consequences for me if I do.
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: he's now a really amazing job - he's the librarian for the British Antarctic Survey.
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hadleybeeman
But we haven't had to make it impossible for me to take your laptop.
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barnabywalters
hadleybeeman: yep, and even if the details of the laws aren’t widely known, there’s wide awareness of them
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hadleybeeman
So my question is... can we do the same thing with data management?
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hadleybeeman
(genuine question. I'm not sure)
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hadleybeeman
I don't Tim
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hadleybeeman
is losing patience with her iPad keyboard
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hadleybeeman
I don't think so, tommorris. Sounds like an amazing job though!
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tommorris
he used to be the Wikipedian in Residence at the British Library. anyway, just as an aside, you should follow him. he's interesting.
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barnabywalters
if you took my laptop, I can say with certainty that you’ve taken it. I no longer have it, and you’re holding it. If you give it back, I now have it again. if you make a copy of my data, then tell me to delete it… I have no way of verifying that
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barnabywalters
s/tell me to delete it/tell me you’ve deleted it
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: if you took my laptop, I can say with certainty that you’ve taken it. I no longer have it, and you’re holding it. If you give it back, I now have it again. if you make a copy of my data, then tell me you’ve deleted it… I have no way of verifying that
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barnabywalters
the way computers work make it very easy to lie about things
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hadleybeeman
That's true
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hadleybeeman
the verification is a lot harder.
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hadleybeeman
Would you feel better if the punishment for lying were more severe?
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barnabywalters
and encryption doesn’t solve anything if at any point the information becomes decrypted, which is useful for actually using it
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barnabywalters
hadleybeeman: if it’s near-impossible to verify that someone is lying, that doesn’t fix much
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: I'd feel a lot better if the ICO had some teeth. the overriding of the ICO's decision on Prince Charles' letters by the Attorney General gives me good reason to think that they aren't as useful as they could be
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tommorris
I'd feel a lot better if every government database project wasn't such a cock-up.
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hadleybeeman
Hmm. But if we can't trust anyone, then things grind to a halt. So there has to be some combination of "the risk is worth it," there's accountability, and users have control over what goes out about them. (Perhaps)
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hadleybeeman
tommorris, not every government database project IS a cock-up. Just the ones that make the press.
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tommorris
there've been some corkers though
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hadleybeeman
But if we're dreaming, then what kind of teeth *should* the Information Commissioner have?
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barnabywalters
talking of data tangibility: how does one actually make a FOI request? in what sort of format is the data?
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barnabywalters
facebook-style PDF mailed to you on a floppy disk?
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hadleybeeman
"machine readible", barnaby walters. :) No, it's not that bad.
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: power to physically remove and destroy servers if big companies fail to adhere to privacy law? ;-)
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hadleybeeman
I'm not sure where you are, but at least in the UK you can either send a letter or post it on a site like whatdotheyknow.com, where the responses are made public
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hadleybeeman
Okay, tommorris. Build the case. Why would that help?
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tommorris
it'd have to be EU-wide, but "hey, the cops have come in and destroyed our expensive boxen" may give companies a certain kick up the arse to comply with privacy laws.
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tommorris
I'd like to see clear and readable T&Cs, possibly with human-understandable metadata. rather than the whole 52-pages-of-tiny-text iTunes-style agreements
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hadleybeeman
*nods* I'm with you on the boxes.
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hadleybeeman
What would clearer T&Cs accomplish?
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tommorris
well, it means individual users would be able to make decisions about social network use that don't require a lawyer
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tommorris
Wikimedia recently went to the effort of dramatically simplyfing their terms of use - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
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hadleybeeman
So, better informed consumers can make choices in their own interest?
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tommorris
absolutely
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hadleybeeman
I'm really feeling the need to put all these players up on a white board and start drawing arrows between them. "What they want" and "what they can give".
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Loqi
eschnou: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 19 minutes ago: if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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hadleybeeman
There's a lot to flesh out here.
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hadleybeeman
eschnou: we were just looking at your prism break stuff. Well organised! Thank you.
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hadleybeeman
Right — with that, I need to start my Saturday.
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tommorris
I need to get back to Kant and Hans-Georg Gadamer
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hadleybeeman
Thanks for the chat, all (tommorris, barnabywalters, tantek) Undoubtedly this will go on... there's a lot to unpack here. But your input is useful.
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barnabywalters
it’s gay pride later on here in Reykjavik — so I should probably have a shower and breakfast and generally wake up properly
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hadleybeeman
:) have a great weekend then
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hadleybeeman
bye for now!
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tommorris
barnabywalters: do take some photos.
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barnabywalters
tommorris: will do. apparently it’s quite a spectacle
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tommorris
has a gander at Prism Break
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tommorris
I'd expect nothing less.
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eschnou
hadleybeeman, Thanks!
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eschnou
tantek, yes it's in the plans, however everything on backburner due to sunny summer pulling me away from my laptop in the evenings :-) Will update the wiki with comments if any.
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tommorris
Ooh, Adblock Edge. Adblock Plus but with the "allow acceptable ads" feature removed.
xtof_, xtof, neuro`_, a_, bnvk and barnabywalters joined the channel
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@katmandelstein
RT @_pius: Put #indieweb into MBA terms and call it a low-end disruption of current standards. Enterprise IT will race to adopt it. #osfw3c
(twitter.com/_/status/366197162410909697)
xtof, andreypopp, bnvk, catsup, josephboyle and cjopcjop joined the channel
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cjopcjop
good morning all
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cjopcjop
Thanks for introducing me to POSSE tantek
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tantek
welcome cjopcjop!
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cjopcjop
I was wondering if there was a how to guide for POSSE
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aaronpk
is catching up on logs
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pdurbin
cjopcjop: tons of stuff in the wiki
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aaronpk
tantek: I'd experiment with publishing my eating preferences. one challenge for me is I haven't found any existing labels that describe how I eat exactly. (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376130924)
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aaronpk
!tell barnabywalters I think it didn't work because your "in-reply-to" is a full citation and I think I was looking just for a URL (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131834)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
bret: not a bad idea to pick up work on pump.io! it's all node.js so probably not that hard to pick up since you've already been doing JS stuff! (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131314)
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cjopcjop
my apologies pdurbin, but I'm not finding any setup guides on POSSE via the wiki, could you be so kind as to link for me
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tantek
aaronpk - similarly I've just been putting my eating preferences on a wiki page
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tantek
cjopcjop - you may want to start with the getting started page: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek
not that sorrty
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pdurbin
aaronpk has a pretty good start ;)
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tantek
pdurbin indeed :)
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aaronpk
hadleybeeman: we've definitely taken the approach of own-your-data as the instigator more than the privacy side of things. this is probably made apparent by the extensive list of sites that have shut down http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376132290)
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tantek
searching for food preferences led me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_choice
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cjopcjop
pdurbin, I'm under the impression that POSSE is script, and thus, I'm looking for it
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cjopcjop
There doesn't seem to be a section on how to implement POSSE, moreso touting its benefits. I'm obviously missing something here :)
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tantek
cjopcjop POSSE is a technique that you can implement in any blog posting software, to any set of possible POSSE destinations
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tantek
right now there is no one POSSE implementation technique, it's per silo
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+83) "/* POSSE Destinations */ add some prelim wording re: implement"
(view diff)
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cjopcjop
ahh, understood. That did not seem clear to me at first.
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cjopcjop
so I HAVE to use a third party blogging app
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+59) "/* POSSE Destinations */ main articles"
(view diff)
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tantek
cjopcjop - or write your own. most of us have ended up doing that: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#experimental
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aaronpk
cjopcjop: no, you just need to publish some html on your site in some way you choose
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cjopcjop
aaronpk, wonderful! That's what I was hopijng for :)
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aaronpk
it is the web after all!
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cjopcjop
I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds but I believe examples on the wiki would greatly benefit the newby such as myself to get a solid grasp of the POSEE concept
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cjopcjop
per silo of course
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aaronpk
cjopcjop: feedback helps for sure! thanks
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cjopcjop
aaronpk, would it be possible for you to share an example of your html to twitter POSSE?
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+595) "add a brief How To Implement section clarifying overall implementation approach and steering to POSSE Destinations, recommend starting with Twitter"
(view diff)
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tantek
cjopcjop - examples are on the specific silo pages' POSSE sections
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aaronpk
cjopcjop: I don't do that personally, I have a small system I built (http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k) You can see an example post here: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/08/1/dream
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tantek
lots of links to examples of original posts and POSSE copies
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aaronpk
breakfast! back in a bit!
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cjopcjop
wow! aaronpk, that's a lovely setup man!
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tantek
aaronpk - just noticed you're using three period rather than the ellipsis character
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cjopcjop
Though it is important for many to realize ou can implement POSSE in multiple ways, perhaps providing packages like aaronpk's P3K would be sweet
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tantek
cjopcjop - yes - hence the /projects link I gave above
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tantek
p3k is listed there among others :)
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+130) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ add an abbreviated POSSE tweet example from aaronpk, cleanup examples a but"
(view diff)
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cjopcjop
Cheers for your patience tantek :)
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cjopcjop
I've been setting up a server and subsequent resources for a similar idea to #indiewebcamp sans le camp under the title #OwnYourData, which is how I found you.
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hadleybeeman
Aaronpk: Thanks! I'm actually more concerned with patterns of behaviour right now than the causes. Both privacy & own-your-data are producing similar responses (code) among our community.
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cjopcjop
It's in it's infancy at pixel.uni.cx
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cjopcjop
I'm looking to find implement and then simplify for the sake of propogation to the layman, web-applications that can be used locally thus helping in both data responsibility and technical knowledge
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cjopcjop
If I still lived in the UK, I would gladly attend your camps
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+98) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ link to example note + posse tweet from aaronpk"
(view diff)
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tantek
cjopcjop - no problem at all - any question you ask is clearly good feedback for better documentation on our part :)
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tantek
cjopcjop - there have been indieweb events in various cities - watch this for more: http://indiewebcamp.com/events
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cjopcjop
fantastic!
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cjopcjop
none in Canada yet, perhaps that should change :)
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shaners
tantek aaronpk: I already say that I'm "vegan" on my site. I'd love to mark it up in a h-* usable way.
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shaners
while we're at it. I also say that I'm an atheist and anarchist. Have there been any research / effort around religion or politics in h-*?
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@dellasm
RT @wordsprof: Backstage at the trailer shoot - 1 way authors can use #Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/stevepiacente/400-pages-in-2-minutes-the-bootlicker-trailer/ #selfpubl #booktrailers #indieauth…
(twitter.com/_/status/366259531690418176)
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shaners
on http://dateedge.com we give people these diet choices: raw, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, kosher, freeman, omnivore
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shaners
s/freeman/freegan
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Loqi
shaners meant to say: on http://dateedge.com we give people these diet choices: raw, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, kosher, freegan, omnivore
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aaronpk
shaners: I would choose vegetarian out of that list, but I also have further (voluntary) restrictions
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shaners
aaronpk: right. i think there's a case for like "high level label" and "additional nuances". like tantek's diet page. he's a "pescatarian" but then has additional food prefs.
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shaners
i'm a "vegan" (and don't eat honey). and *don't like* most pickled things, for example.
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shaners
but just a high level label would get us pretty far
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aaronpk
I guess what are the use cases for machine readable data vs human readable data
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aaronpk
cause it's too easy to go down the rabbit hole of trying to model and mark everything up in a machine readable way
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shaners
but, i haven't done any research about how other people are doing it or what others' needs are. so anything past "what i'd do on my site/s" would be talking out of my ass.
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shaners
aaronpk: just spitballing here, do you think this would be a p-diet (or whatever property name) on an h-card. or an h-diet (or whatever name)?
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aaronpk
tommorris uses u-x-dietary-preference and links to an HTML page with more info. I like that approach
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aaronpk
lets you do "I am vegetarian" with a link to more info, rather than embedding everything in the h-card
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aaronpk
although yea we'd still need a property for the high level list of preferences in addition to the url
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tommorris
I also have another human readable page - http://wiki.tommorris.org/Explaining_vegetarianism
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aaronpk
oh wow you have a mediawiki too?
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tommorris
Apparently this whole "vegetarianism = not meat && not fish" things is complicated
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aaronpk
lol yea
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tommorris
aaronpk: yeah. You can take the Wikipedia admin away from the encyclopedia...
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tommorris
I've only got sexual orientation as RDFa though
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tommorris
<data property="http://dbpedia.org/property/sexualOrientation" resource="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Homosexuality">...
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shaners
aaronpk tommorris: btw, i think calling it a "diet preference" is overly reductive. some people are born into it. etc.
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tommorris
Uniformly Indicate all the things!
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aaronpk
shaners: yea true
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Loqi
INDICATE ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/7m4
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shaners
*I* certainly chose to be vegan. but not everyone else chose theirs.
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tommorris
shaners: this is true - I chose that on the basis that it is supposed to be useful in particular cases.
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aaronpk
wtf kind of crazy html does chrome bookmark export create, ugh
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aaronpk
missing close tags all over the place
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shaners
i like simply -diet better. it doesn't prescribe any other baggage
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tommorris
Supposed to pick out things like vegetarianism, veganism, kosher etc. rather than "I'm on Atkins".
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aaronpk
<!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1> lol
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shaners
totes lols
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shaners
loqi: lol?
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tommorris
In addition, when booking airline food, one is usually asked "Meal Preference"
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tommorris
The orientation/preference distinction is important w/r/t sexuality but not quite so important w/r/t diet, precisely because there's not a political lobby out there claiming that the etiology of someone's nut allergy should determine whether their nut allergy is respected or not.
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tommorris
I'm as close as one gets to born vegetarian. Ever since I had a conscious choice, about 4 or 5 y.o, I've been vegetarian.
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aaronpk
is born vegetarian
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aaronpk
have never eaten meat
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shaners
Hindus. Buddhist. Jews. Muslims. A *lot* of people are born into a diet.
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shaners
tommorris: i agree that the implications of "preference" are not the same for sexuality and food that goes into my mouth. i'm def not trying to equate the two.
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shaners
just to be clear. ^
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shaners
in other news, i've been manually adding attributions links from my wp.com copies back to sbb.me on and off for the past week. and i'm on the home stretch now. :D
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tommorris
Wasn't suggesting you were
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shaners
i know. but for other people who might read the logs later and get the wrong idea, i wanted to clarify.
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aaronparecki.com
created /osfw3c-2013 (+18649) "import from etherpad"
(view diff)
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shaners
aaronpk: pinboard.in provides export in a few different formats. one of which is that old ass terrible html from early netscape style.
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aaronpk
i'm experimenting with something for chrome right now :)
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aaronpk
i need a 16px version of the font-awesome icons though
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Loqi
barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 5 minutes ago: I think it didn't work because your "in-reply-to" is a full citation and I think I was looking just for a URL (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131834)
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SRCR
Hi, I'm thinking about building my own website based on the indieweb principals, are there other good sources of info other than indiewebcamp.com (allready going through that..) ?
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shaners
hi SRCR!
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aaronpk
SRCR: the indiewebcamp wiki has a lot of info, and in some places links out to microformats.org for more detailed info on the various markup. the indiewebcamp wiki is a great place to start!
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shaners
That should get you started. ;)
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shaners
but honestly, here's what you *really* need to start with:
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shaners
1. own your domain
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shaners
2. put an h-card on your homepage
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shaners
3. rel-me any external silo links on your homepage
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shaners
4. mark up posts in h-entry
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shaners
that's the starting off point
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shaners
from there, you can choose which direction to go with it
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SRCR
Ok, Well I got point 1 covered (I got 2 of those :)
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shaners
everyone seems to have their own reasons for doing the #indieweb stuffs. and that's great. it means that we exercise ideas in different areas.
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shaners
btw, SRCR, how did you fall into this?
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SRCR
I was borking on having a site build on one ot them I tried Idno and Storytlr, but didn't like that personally
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barnabywalters
SRCR: that’s great! diversity of implementations will only strengthen what we’re doing
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barnabywalters
and avoid monoculture
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shaners
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 10 karma
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barnabywalters
other than indiewebcamp.com and the sources shaners mentioned, this IRC room is probably the best place to get information :)
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SRCR
Well I have been trying to build a own site earlier base more on the PESOS principal (activetystream) but never got it of the ground really.
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SRCR
Then I read up on the indiewebcamp stuff not sure how I ended up there, but I like the PESSO idea and I think I would like to start with that and later see if I can get my other data imported in my site.
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barnabywalters
SRCR: that’s pretty much what I’ve done — started out building a posting system with POSSE to twitter and facebook, then recently I’ve worked on importing all my old data from Diaspora
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SRCR
for me the indiewebcamp site gives me i bit more of a base to get me started before I needd to think everything up myself.
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barnabywalters
POSSE is generally preferable to PESOS
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SRCR
and I'm not a developer so...
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shaners
SRCR: don't be discouraged by not being a "developer". there's quite a bit you can do with existing tools and/or doing things manually.
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shaners
e.g., bret manually sends his webmentions to other sites because he hasn't built that part of his site yet
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barnabywalters
SRCR: what’s your personal domain? the best place to start would be adding basic indieweb capabilities to what you currently have
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SRCR
I have had Diaspora installed (only internally available) but was missing out on what the 'normal' population was doing on facebook and twitter
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barnabywalters
SRCR: yeah I was quite active on D* for a while but got disenchanted, built my own solution and now all my content happily lives there
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shaners
SRCR: also, after you get some rel-me links on your homepage, login to the idw wiki and create your user page.
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SRCR
i have srcr.nl ready to go, only a restart of the webserver is needed, o and some code would be nice to actually run the site :)
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SRCR
Are you all developers or more like me amateurs who just give php a try.. (I doing myself a bit short here :))
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barnabywalters
I thought I was an amateur until someone started paying me :) we’re a mix of people — designers, developers, standards people, etc.
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aaronpk
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 11 karma
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shaners
SRCR: we've got a pretty good spectrum of skills and interests
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shaners
SRCR: don't ever feel like you can't speak up about something because an "amateur" or "not a programmer". :D
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SRCR
We'll I'm in IT, I'm managing the application delivery of about 40 app to a company :) my background is in system and application management
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shaners
as long as you're building stuff (#selfdogfood), you're solid
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barnabywalters
oh cool — I think eschnou does a lot of that kind of stuff
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barnabywalters
^ what shaners said
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: surprisingly that phrase is not on google yet. but now it will be :)
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SRCR
Well thanks for the warm welcome and the info I'll switch screen for a bit to read up.
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shaners
aaronpk: what phrase?
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barnabywalters
I really need to implement original post discovery
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shaners
aaronpk: do you think you'll add a Quotation post type for this case? like tumblr has.
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aaronpk
yes yes you do
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aaronpk
shaners: yea I was just thinking about that
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shaners
it's in my list of post types / short url namespaces
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barnabywalters
shaners: I have this loose rule where if HTML already has an element for something I want to publish, I just use that
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barnabywalters
in this case <blockquote>
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aaronpk
I don't think I'll make it a top-level type though, more like just different markup inside my note
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barnabywalters
things I post with <blockquote> in get auto-tagged with “quote”
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aaronpk
my top-level types have their own feeds
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barnabywalters
same with images
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barnabywalters
and some other stuff, I forget
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shaners
barnabywalters: prolly lists and code
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shaners
barnabywalters: are you gonna use h-media for photo posts?
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barnabywalters
ooh I don’t think I auto-tag <code> — good call! that would be really handy
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barnabywalters
shaners: yes I should probably add h-media to my h-entries with images in
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shaners
i'm using h-media for videos (and have it coded for photos)
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barnabywalters
woah, you’re self hosting videos now?
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shaners
yep. pulled in all of my Vine and YouTube vids.
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shaners
Still have to do vimeo and instagarms
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barnabywalters
mmm, I’d love to get all my youtube content imported
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shaners
I'm not POSSEing yet. just pulling in all the disparate silo data
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shaners
barnabywalters: dude. the google takeout dump for youtube is terrible.
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shaners
no meta data.
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barnabywalters
there’s about 3GB, maybe less if I exclude the private stuff
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barnabywalters
shaners: tell me about it :) I wrote at length about it and other stuff: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/data-export/
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shaners
Video_Title_as_File_name_truncated_to_some_lengt.mp4
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barnabywalters
in comparison to some of the other data export crimes google’s committing, lack of youtube video metadata is quite bearable
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barnabywalters
and I think it can all be extracted from some XML API fairly easily
tantek joined the channel
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shaners
fortunately, i only had about 2 dozen youtube videos. so I just walked through the edit pages or each one manually.
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barnabywalters
so here’s a question: why do video and audio silos prominently display view counts, whereas text silos typically completely ignore it?
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barnabywalters
talking specifically about YT, vimeo, soundcloud
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shaners
after i got them all on my site, i added a permashortlink in the yt description back to my sbb.me/v copy
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shaners
barnabywalters: good question. i dunno. vanity?
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: interesting question! I think one reason is beacuse it's easier to count a view of a video vs a view of text content and filter out false positives (crawlers)
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shaners
we used to show "N visitors" counters on all web pages, remember?
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aaronpk
totally
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: good point — although tracking scrolling would be trivial
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aaronpk
and then the crawlers skewed the number so much
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barnabywalters
but it’s more than that — youtube videos are always valued by how many views they’ve had
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tantek
shaners - re: vegan / vegetarian etc. - for now just use tags, e.g. <span class="p-category">vegan</span>
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barnabywalters
hitting a certain number of views is like a rite of passage
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barnabywalters
not so for text
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barnabywalters
no-one says “my article had fifteen thousand reads on medium!"
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aaronpk
I've noticed that medium.com shows a duration on the post, https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf is a "4 min read". I assume that is determined based on the length of time people spend on the page
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: more likely word count…?
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aaronpk
text content gets measured more by the number of shares it gets
eschnou joined the channel
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aaronpk
all the social media widget things show share counts on the silos
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shaners
barnabywalters: i earned my "Been Boinged" Nerd Merit Badge a few years back. all the big blogs. top story on reddit, /., digg. etc
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barnabywalters
hm true — but have you ever heard anyone actually talk about those numbers?
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aaronpk
even imgur shows view count of images!
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barnabywalters
sure, some authors might obsess over them
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: yea totally, people compare the "reach" of posts a lot
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: really? wow, I’ve never heard anyone talk about those numbers specifically
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tantek
my tweet buttons on my articles have the # next to them. it can be entertaining I suppose.
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shaners
barnabywalters: Facebook reports on "reach" for promoted posts and for Pages™
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barnabywalters
shaners: I should hope so, if people are paying for them :/
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tantek
still, all those #s pale in comparison to # of thoughtful comments
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shaners
i've personally turned off all analytics for view counts. i only use Google Analytics (for now) for occasional refer research and geo stuff.
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shaners
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 14 karma
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barnabywalters
I turned off analytics a while ago
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tantek
like the #s some of you show for federated indieweb comments. one day I'll get there too :)
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tantek
reads the logs to see what I missed.
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aaronpk
tantek: just had an interesting idea for you if you're interested... use pingback.me to collect webmentions, and have a tiny bit of JS to show the comment count on your posts like how bret uses it for displaying the links
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tantek
s/ I / he
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: reads the logs to see what hemissed.
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shaners
Loqi: what's an "hemissed"?
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Loqi
who, me?
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shaners
Loqi: yes, you.
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tantek
thought he did that s/ properly but perhaps not.
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shaners
hahaha
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Loqi
hehe
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shaners
whitespace, man. HOW DOES IT WORK!
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barnabywalters
tantek: yeah, with pingback.me and a bit of JS you could easily approximate the inline <ul> of name links to comments in your logs
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tantek
aaronpk - sounds quite interesting.
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barnabywalters
(look around you voice) what is whitespace? we just don’t know (question mark ding)
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aaronpk
barnabywalters++ for the look around you reference!!!
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: love that show :) I need to re-watch them all
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tantek
barnabywalters example URL for info?
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tantek
or do I need to deploy a rel="pingback" header to pingback.me to start collecting them?
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barnabywalters
tantek: er… aaronpk or bret are the ones to ask, I don’t use pingback.me
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aaronpk
that would be first. the rel=pingback and rel=webmention headers
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tantek
does pingback.me receive webmention headers too?
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tantek
interesting
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aaronpk
should probably add that to the pingback.me wiki page
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barnabywalters
who knows how to make jquery plugins?
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barnabywalters
we should make a zero-effort webmention-including jQuery plugin
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barnabywalters
or just plain js
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shaners
/play :crickets:
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barnabywalters
people seem to like jquery though
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barnabywalters
e.g. <div data-indie-comments data-url="…"></div>
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shaners
barnabywalters: my team wrote a jq plugin : https://github.com/G5/jquery-picture-tag
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: yes yes good idea
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aaronpk
that's not even a jquery plugin, it would just be a script tag
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barnabywalters
two-step indiecomments: add the pingback.me link, add this script tag and an element. boom.
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aaronpk
hmmMMMmmm
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aaronpk
nods in approval
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barnabywalters
doesn’t want to promote web.js… but this would be a nice thing to have
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tantek
perhaps a suggestion to write-up on the /webmention page?
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SRCR
barnabywalters: I get 'No route found for "GET /musings/post/post-type-schema"' on your site.
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /webmention (+340) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */ added TODO for indiecomments.js"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
SRCR: yep, I’ve been meaning to fix those old URLs
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barnabywalters
where did you find the link?
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SRCR
you need to talk to tantek :) http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743973/Whistle
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barnabywalters
oh wow I forgot that page linked to me
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tantek
hmm - what did happen to that page/post of yours barnaby?
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tantek
I can fix the link, I just need to know the new one :)
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barnabywalters
tantek: I changed my URL scheme *ducks*
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+404) "itch: POSSE CRUD, just before indie wiki support (one will inform the other)"
(view diff)
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tantek
barnabywalters, nothing wrong with changing your URL scheme, just remember to redirect the old ones ;)
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shaners
just discovered (and only read as far as the subtitle) : http://darkpatterns.org
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tantek
yeah that's a good site shaners
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tantek
barnaby, srcr, link fixed
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shaners
srsly. people get so *into* inventing vocabularies and formats out of whole cloth. i don't get it.
#
@veganstraightedge
@kevinmarks @danbri @wtfmoose @t @microformats At which point, why not just use the JSON representation of the mf2?
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tantek
shaners, it's a deadly combination of ego, ignorance, and laziness (of the wrong kind)
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tantek
they're more into invention than communication, so they get what their motivations wanted.
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tantek
shaners - nice closing tweet. I think you just debunked the whole thing.
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aaronpk
just made some bookmark toolbar hotness :D time for a demo video
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shaners
drops the keyboard and walks off twitter
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tantek
but, but, JSONLD came out of a COMMITTEE...
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aaronpk
yea i'm just gonna ignore that whole thread
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tantek
the other thing, for single page websites, just use h-x-* and p-x-* classes.
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shaners
SRCR barnabywalters: i gifted some of my internal notes / plans for post types and url namespaces : https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6201929
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tantek
party on with your experimental single page self, and contribute your findings to the microformats wiki
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shaners
s/gifted/gisted
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Loqi
shaners meant to say: SRCR barnabywalters: i gisted some of my internal notes / plans for post types and url namespaces : https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6201929
#
barnabywalters
“and thus he coined the phrase, “gifted you a gist””
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tantek
shaners - basically, all these one-off "standard" JSON APIs are dead-ends because we've figured out how to generate generic JSON from very simple HTML - which is easier for more people to publish.
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aaronpk
omg now i want to make a select-to-quote button like barnaby's extension
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tantek
shaners - linked to your gist from my Whistle page too
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shaners
grool. i'll let you know when i post it proper to my site.
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tantek
tantek.com/w/Whistle#designrelatedanalysis
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tantek
happy to link to anybody else's single-letter URL design space(s) also
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aaronpk
hm I think mine is still a txt file on my computer
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tantek
shaners what is it?
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Loqi
it is the web after all
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shaners
aaronpk: mine was too. gist it.
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shaners
tantek: it's my newbase60 port of you
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shaners
in ruby
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tantek
'ah ok
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shaners
that i use in my url shortening
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tantek
looks like it's already there: http://tantek.com/w/NewBase60#Ruby :)
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shaners
oh. on that page.
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tantek
of course :)
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tantek
where else would it be ;)
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shaners
tantek: when are you gonna host your own wiki? :P
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tantek
all this outdoor sunshine is making me smile
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neuro`
Good evening campers
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tantek
at least I'm using the URLs for now
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tantek
(from my own site)
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shaners
#truefaxmachine
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neuro`
tantek: for my personal culture, can you post a screenshot of Falcon publishing interface please?
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tantek
what was that about volcanos and fax machines I thought i saw go by?
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: I like your minicard UI on the inline reply contexts!
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aaronpk
steals it
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: please do
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danbri
I was suggesting national opening hours was a better bad example, if you want one (per our lunch chat at IO, Tantek)
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neuro`
Gonna steal it as well, but first, implement reply to
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aaronpk
good idea making the reply context photo way smaller
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tantek
neuro` "post a screenshot of Falcon publishing interface " - will do once it's implemented :)
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neuro`
tantek: haha, OK. So you're doing it command line?
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danbri
"tantek: shaners, it's a deadly combination of ego, ignorance, and laziness (of the wrong kind) they're more into invention than communication, so they get what their motivations wanted."
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aaronpk
tantek: you should post a screenshot right now!
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shaners
my "posting interface" is still `rake db:seed` :/
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danbri
wonders which of those I'm tagged with
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barnabywalters
neuro`: you see the “via BBEdit” next to tantek’s notes? they’re serious :)
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tantek
Falcon posting UI is currently: BBEdit + scp + minimal "verify & post" web UI that does all the saving to storage, PuSH sending, POSSEing
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aaronpk
when I first saw "via BBEdit" on tantek's site I assumed he was posting from his blackberry somehow :)
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neuro`
I'm working on Publify interface, and we're duscissing whether or not we should split the blog posts / short statuses (with POSSE) interfaces
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neuro`
barnabywalters: my posts should all be tagged "Posted from Textmate" as it implements Blogger and MT API Publify also handles
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shaners
Achievement Unlocked! I've not manually POSSEd, a.u-syndication and a.u-uid'ed between sbb.me/b and http://veganstraightedge.wordpress.com
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shaners
performing the fiction of "Originally published at:" all the way back to 2004-10-17
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+528) "document current Publishing UI per prodding question from neuro`"
(view diff)
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neuro`
tantek: BTW, do you know when the W3C will let you free in Paris?
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danbri
shaners, thanks for http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falpha.app.net%2Fvoidfiles - is the code that generated it available?
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tantek
neuro` no idea :)
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neuro`
tantek: hope it's not the Friday night.
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neuro`
tantek: thank you.
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aaronpk
danbri: you mean the microformats parser?
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shaners
danbri: there are 4 implementations of mf2 parsers : js in browsers, node.js, php, and ruby. tommorris is working on a java one now.
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aaronpk
also pin13.net is me :)
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neuro`
Doing a full POSSE publishing and interface may lead to some gas factory I fear.
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danbri
there's another one around, humm one sec
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barnabywalters
neuro`: gas factory?
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neuro`
barnabywalters: litteral French translation meaning "huge bloatware that does everything at the price of an overbloated UI"
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neuro`
I didn't know it didn't exist in English.
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tantek
danbri - re: "which of those", let me know when you've published documentation obsoleting FOAF and directing people to use vCard4 vocabulary, and proposed any extensions you need to the VCARDDAV list. I've given up on schema-org/person submitting to VCARDDAV after what Guha said at osfw3c workshop.
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barnabywalters
neuro`: ah, okay :) I use my tags field as a command line — if I add #notweet, the note is not tweeted
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danbri
tantek, always nice to hear from you
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@aaronpk
Adapted my JS technique for reply interface to be a bookmarklet, complete with a custom icon! Here is my... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/10/2/indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/366296595534331904)
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tantek
danbri - everytime I see semweb/LD/etc. folks pushing/publishing foaf:xyz content it's like leaks from a very strange parallel universe.
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neuro`
barnabywalters: nice one :-). I'm trying to build an interface that allows me to publish blog posts as well as short statuses published or not on Twitter
#
shaners
aaronpk: how do you screen record => animated gif?
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neuro`
And maybe on another platform as we add them
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aaronpk
shaners: I use Screeny to get the video, then gifify to turn it into a gif
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barnabywalters
neuro`: oh cool. I currently use different UIs for the two tasks
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tantek
danbri - given your background and expertise I'm sure you could get a lot done on theVCARDDAV list frankly. And I mean that seriously.
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danbri
and there i was 1 second from ragequitting this discussion until a workday, and you go and say something nice
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barnabywalters
shaners: FTR, I use quicktime to screen record then a mac app called gifbrewery to crop+resize+gifify, then imageoptim to crush the filesize