#indiewebcamp 2013-08-10

2013-08-10 UTC
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tantek.com edited /like (+61) "/* Ben Werdmuller */ need example permalink cc: benwerd" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /like (+93) "Le permalink" (view diff)
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shaners tantek: that makes sense. esp the point of implicitly up voting Facebook by a[href]ing to them
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shaners aaronpk: does the mf2 parser you use search by tag only or can you do css like search?
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tantek.com edited /like (+500) "document Experimental Markup for likes as in use by existing indieweb sites" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk: i.e., $("*[rel=me]") in query would find <link>s and <a>s, right?
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tantek re: /responses (e.g. likes, rsvps etc.), I'm starting to lean towards rejecting using rel for anything resembling a property of a post (h-entry)
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tantek and instead trying the path being explored by sandeepshetty and others about using new properties instead for each response type
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tantek e.g. class="u-like" on a link to something that is being liked
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shaners that last bit is what i've always planned for Homesteading, when i got to webactions
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tantek or implying the special reply type by the presence of another property, e.g. p-rsvp for rsvps
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tantek rather than adding new rel values that mean something special inside of a post
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tantek based on the awkwardness / difficulty of the brainstorming we've tried to do in http://indiewebcamp.com/responses - it feels like we're working too hard there for too little benefit
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tantek anyway, that was the insight I had and wanted to see what others thought about it
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tantek now that Mozilla's Social API has been expanded to have a "Save Bookmark" button (which some are saying is similar to like/favorite), it makes sense to try to sort this out a bit more
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tantek.com edited /responses (+222) "/* Brainstorming */ noted my change of opinion" (view diff)
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shaners tantek: my plans for webactions are three main one: repost, reply, bookmark. bookmark can be optionally tagged with: read-later, watch-later, fave/like, private
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shaners bookmark is my collection for several "actions"
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tantek benwerd - you seem to have two embedded hyperlinks to the same thing here: http://werd.io/view/51d1fd3dbed7de817a526da2
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tantek search for u-like
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href so i'm working on a deployer/hosting service for static generators
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href and xtof got the idea of adding a WebMention api to that
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href i'll definitely work on that :)
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benwerd tantek - so I do
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benwerd thanks
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shaners benwerd: what are <wbr> tags?
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tantek shaners - will be interesting to see what buttons you publish on your permalinks
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tantek I've also got sketches for what buttons I want to publish as part of my permalink UI, but haven't implemented yet
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shaners tantek: yeah… one day. ;)
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href is there is a "client-side"(js) webmention API definied ?
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tantek the "View on Twitter" links are essentially the placeholder where the buttons are going to go
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tantek so even if you can't "favorite" from my permalinks, you can still "View on Twitter" and favorite there.
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tantek small steps
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shaners tantek: re: twitter, agreed
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benwerd shaners: http://www.quirksmode.org/oddsandends/wbr.html
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tantek (and not being ashamed of taking small steps even while others leap forward :) )
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@malexander1219 RT @jmertic: Thanks to the #osfw3c and #distill13 for the great events this week. Excited to have been a part of them! (twitter.com/_/status/365989335616585730)
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shaners holy shit. that's actually a thing?! who knew!
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tantek benwerd - so I'm no longer convinced of the utility (cost/benefit) of things like rel="object-of-like"
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tantek above and beyond just having properties like "u-like"
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benwerd tantek - understood. I think that makes sense
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benwerd keep it simple
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benwerd may include both for backwards compatibility for now
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shaners benwerd: backward compatibility with what?
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tantek I don't think anyone is consuming the rel object-of-* values
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tantek might be best to drop them before anyone does
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tantek shaners, right.
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benwerd isn't sandeep?
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benwerd anyhoo, I'll make that change tonight
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shaners i think it's funny that sandeep was the like 4th person or something to implement webmentions and he says he's "late to the party" http://www.sandeep.io/32
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tantek benwerd - pretty sure sandeep is only looking for the u-like markup
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benwerd then it shall be wiped
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benwerd amount of beer I consume in Oakland tonight permitting.
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tantek shaners - I think he's saying "a little late" because he did it ~2 months after the first set of folks getting it working
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shaners years from now we'll look back and laugh
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tantek I think also because he wrote the webmentions spec
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shaners wrt u-like, i don't like the idea of having http://mypermalink.com/?url=http://the-thing-i'm-liking-permalink.com
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shaners stuffing a url in a url argument smells funny
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shaners http://sandeep.shetty.in/2013/06/really-simple-social-blogging.html
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tantek shaners none of the example "like" posts do that so I'm not sure what you mean. http://indiewebcamp.com/like#IndieWeb_Experiments
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shaners oh. that's what sandeep's post proposed http://sandeep.shetty.in/2013/06/really-simple-social-blogging.html
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tantek shaners AFAIK no one is doing that so it's not a "problem" yet. :)
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shaners great!
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tantek his post proposed a bunch of things, some of which have gotten some uptake
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tantek so let's focus on those
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shaners my bad.
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tantek.com edited /responses (+4) "/* Related Posts */ fix close tags" (view diff)
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benwerd removed object-of-like, fixed the bug
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benwerd thanks for the heads up
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tantek.com edited /comment (+55) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: your thoughts on rel match what I've been thinking. I haven't really found a reason for rel=object-of-like or anything yet, I was planning to do u-like and such when I get to it
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)" (view diff)
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aaronpk also because rel values apply to the page, so showing anything in a list view can't use the actual rel="" tag
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+53) "/* See Also */ responses (make this more discoverable)" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk +1
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 196 karma
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tantek shaners - for these same reasons we may need to iterate on XFN and make u-* based rather than just rel value based. (your example with rel=spouse made me think about this again)
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shaners yep
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tantek wakes up one level and resumes reading http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec
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shaners hahaha
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aaronpk shaners: wrt <link> tag, yes, something like $("*[rel=me]") would work. I just have to figure out the syntax for that in the parser
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tantek can I just say that I think it's hilarious that you're POSSEing to Medium?
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aaronpk shaners: right now i'm using Mechanize which has a ".links" property off a page: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/blob/master/lib/relparser.rb#L113
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shaners tantek: you sure can ;)
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benwerd wait, what?
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benwerd shaners - are you doing it manually, or ..?
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shaners aaronpk: yes
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shaners oops
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shaners benwerd: yes
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benwerd ah, ok :)
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shaners copy / pasta!
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shaners also, manually (for now) POSSEing to wp.com
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tantek.com created /Medium (+445) "stub with POSSE, IndieWeb example" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk: using Nokogiri, you can do this:
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shaners doc = Nokogiri::HTML(open("http://iamshane.com"))
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shaners links = doc.css("[rel=me]").map{ |t| t.attr("href") }
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tantek.com edited /WordPress (+351) "/* WordPress hosting service */ add POSSE, IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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tantek shaners, your manual POSSEing has been documented.
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shaners i see!
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shaners i also have to hand crank my modem to get any internets :P
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tantek somewhere I thought I saw a handcrank USB charger - you know, for when we have power outages (but cell towers still work thanks to their backup batteries)
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tantek also a good reason to have a external laptop battery as well
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href › 1
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href err
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tantek aaronpk your "custom search engine" hack for replies is hilariously awesome :)
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aaronpk :D
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aaronpk i'm gonna call it good there for a while, that'll get me pretty far and I can start working on other stuff
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aaronpk actually I might turn it into a bookmarklet too, and use it from a button in my browser
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tantek definitely
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aaronpk actually I think it'll just work if I copy+paste that...
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tantek would work well as a demo/prototype to encourage the Social API folks (cc: mixedpuppy) to add a "reply" button next to the "share" button.
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aaronpk oh yea done
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aaronpk implemented in 25 seconds
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aaronpk cleans up his bookmarks bar to make a video
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tantek bret you have some typos in http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/ - missing a couple of es
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tantek perhaps you can try updating it s/reciving indiweb/receiving indieweb/
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tantek and rewebmentioning http://www.sandeep.io/123 to see if sandeep has the "update" part of comment CRUD working :)
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aaronpk oh dear, I re-read it twice and still didn't see the typos
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tantek aaronpk - I'm looking forward to when someone implements: http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases#minor_edits with a whitelist of indieauth domain sign-ins :)
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aaronpk ooh
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tantek theoretically if bret had you and me listed with minor-edit permissions, we could fix his comment and send the webmention for him :)
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aaronpk indeed. my guess is benwerd is most likely to first since he has a nice post editing interface already. I can't even edit my posts from a web page yet ;
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tantek yeah, web-based editing UI is kind of a pre-req for this.
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tantek but that would require idno to support indieauth sign-ins :)
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aaronpk also true :)
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benwerd again, idno does have full permissions under the hood - just need to expose them and wire up auth.
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aaronpk it's on the list
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benwerd it's definitely on the list.
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tantek :D
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benwerd er, auth on mine.
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aaronpk that's what I was referring to as well :)
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benwerd oh, ok :)
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aaronpk ooh already has permissions too? yea you are well set up for that
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tantek that's going to make for an epic demo
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benwerd yeah, everything's hardcoded to public and solo edit perms in the actions, but with an actual interface on permissions, you could have all kinds of nuances
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tantek way more effective than the "roles" discussions that were going on yesterday at the workshop
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benwerd I. hate. roles
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tantek LOL
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benwerd just doesn't jibe with how I think
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benwerd about the world, or software
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tantek benwerd - would appreciate your reviewing of http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases in that case
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benwerd I have to run in a mo, but will add that to the reading list after aaronpk's auth docs
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tantek and how many of those (and in what priority order) you would find useful for idno
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benwerd will absolutely do that
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aaronpk oh yea I zoned out for most of the roles stuff
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aaronpk just froze my avocado chocolate mousse and now it's basically ice cream :) :)
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bret oh thanks tantek, i was totally wasted by the end of that day
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bret also prose has a bug right now where spelling and grammar underlines are broken :p
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tantek I like this phrase: "a web-wide #indieweb reply button" from https://twitter.com/Sociability/status/365604634418622465
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@Sociability ★ There is a browser extension that could be a web-wide #indieweb reply button: https://github.com/barnabywalters/web-action-hero-toolbelt (via @kevinmarks)
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tantek bret - np :)
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tantek thank you kevinmarks for such good live-tweeting
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aaronpk agreed!
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benwerd kevinmarks = event documentation superhero
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tantek finding some good content on http://tagboard.com/indieweb
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aaronpk oh hey they search app.net too
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aaronpk i should make loqi search app.net
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek LOL
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tantek like this: https://alpha.app.net/barryf/post/7839037
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aaronpk and https://alpha.app.net/shawndrape/post/6720696
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tantek still amazes me what the power is of naming something that was previously unnamed. I suppose same impulse motivates bikeshedding.
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aaronpk naming things is super important
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tantek once you name it, it becomes a potential building block
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aaronpk hm, how do I reply to this guy on app.net
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aaronpk my replies feed is not syndicated to app.net cause that would be noisy (lots of replies to non-app.net users), and even if it was, it wouldn't thread as a reply to his post
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tantek why wouldn't it thread?
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aaronpk cause the pourover thing doesn't set a reply-to-id
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@EvanLovely RT @brianjesse: is there a simple app that just sends #ios notification of new items in a feed? #rss #indieweb thx (twitter.com/_/status/366002693761806337)
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tantek a-ha! so we need to figure out / add something to http://indiewebcamp.com/App.net#POSSE_to_ADN that is the equivalent of http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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tantek or is there a way to make a feature request in pourover?
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aaronpk might be
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aaronpk the one downside to pourover is that it's all pubsubhubbub based so it's reading my xml feed
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tantek point out that we're doing this with Twitter the hard way, would be nice to do it with App.net the "easy way" :)
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aaronpk probably what I should do is drop my xml feed and create it like I create my JSON feed, running it through a parser rather than having it be a separate view of my site
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benwerd waves
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tantek looks for voidfiles
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tantek aaronpk it is probable
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aaronpk lol
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tantek :D
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aaronpk really we need a good h-entry -> atom service
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tantek sandeep built on
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tantek s/on/one
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Loqi tantek meant to say: sandeep built one
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aaronpk oh?
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tantek points to http://indiewebcamp.com/Atom
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk aha https://github.com/sandeepshetty/h-reader
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aaronpk i should probably read our wiki more
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Loqi fo sho
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tantek always pleased when something happens to be documented in our wiki at the most obvious place ;)
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tantek ha!
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aaronpk oops! http://h-reader.aws.af.cm/feed/atom?url=http://aaronparecki.com/notes
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aaronpk i must not have the h-feed markup
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aaronpk rigs up a new bookmarklet to pass pages to the mf2 parser
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aaronpk one-button mf2 parser for my browser
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aaronpk javascript:(function()%7Bwindow.location="http://pin13.net/mf2/?url="+encodeURIComponent(window.location.href)%7D)();
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tantek nice
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aaronpk tantek: anyway, we're going to need a way for the atom feed to specify an "in reply to" URL
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aaronpk does that exist yet? I found this: http://thehack.webmasher.com/2007/11/rss-killer-feature-replies-via-in-reply.html
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tantek Atom has a link rel in-reply-to
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tantek check the in-reply-to research on microformats
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@t thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1) (twitter.com/_/status/366004959185076224)
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aaronpk I don't see much about in-reply-to for atom
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@kevinmarks RT @t: thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1) (twitter.com/_/status/366006412964409344)
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tantek aaronpk, gimme a sec
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bret aaronpk: or anyone in portland recommend a way to get home at 2 in the morning from PDX?
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bret my flight got staggered
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aaronpk taxi
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aaronpk bret: flying out of SFO?
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bret is there like a shared shuttle that would be cheaper?
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aaronpk don't know. it'll be like $30 or so if you call radio cab and ask for the radio flyer rate
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tantek aaronpk, hmm, this is a little thin: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-in-reply-to#Previous_Formats
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tantek bret - can you demand the airline give you a travel voucher for the inconvenience?
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bret Do we have a wiki page of dead or dying standards, and what went wrong?
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tantek since they disrupted your plans?
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tantek bret - better to just document each dead/dying standard on its own, along with the modern replacement
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bret ha well, i was gettingg in at 1 not sure if its that much a diff
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tantek bret - doesn't hurt to ask
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aaronpk unfortunately it's SFO's fault, not the airline's
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bret tantek ill try though :)
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tantek too bad james_m_snell is gone
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bret I could say that the person who was picking me up couldn't do it later
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tantek just found http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt
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bret Sandeep has crud :)
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aaronpk whoa
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tantek bret - woohoo!
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tantek :)
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tantek crud receiving even
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aaronpk aw man why does it have to be in an xml namespace? <thr:in-reply-to>
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aaronpk bret: you could ask for them to pay for your cab ride haha
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bret PLus its like, I can't tell the cap when Im going to be in
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bret "your flight will be late, but maybe not"
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aaronpk bret: it's easy to call a cab when you land. as soon as you walk off the plane call radio cab and they'll be downstairs by the time you walk out
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aaronpk i do that all the time
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aaronpk holy crap i'm glad I got them to rebook my flight last night... it was supposed to be the 8:10pm flight and they ended up leaving SFO at 2:52am
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aaronpk http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA231/history/20130809/0310Z/KSFO/KPDX
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tantek aaronpk - attempting to load up your Atom feed with more semantics is going to be a painful path
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tantek Atom XML is a dead-end
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bret OPML!
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tantek maybe a better approach is to ask for pourover to start consuming h-entry
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bret jk
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tantek bret - feel free to create a /OPML page on the wiki :)
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aaronpk tantek: I agree, but I'm looking for a path-of-least-resistance approach for app.net
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bret if they do h-atom
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tantek it may not be least resistance if no one is implementing the atom threading extensions currently
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aaronpk they already set up infrastructure to consume a PuSH feed of atom
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bret ah, right
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tantek besides, asking them to implement something which is an apparently dead standard is not necessarily a good approach either
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tantek reduces reputation capital etc.
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aaronpk true
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tantek is going out to get a sandwich
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aaronpk we need push for h-entry
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aaronpk which technically shouldn't need to be any different than existing PuSH
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aaronpk because I don't think the resource that is PuSH enabled is required to be Atom
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tantek aaronpk - indeed - been asking Brett Slatkin / Julien for that for a while now
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bret aaronpk: would julienne be willing to work on that?
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aaronpk well the good news is there's a new giant source of h-entrys!
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aaronpk app.net!
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tantek right!
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bret julian*
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bret so PuSH hubs are not content agnostic?
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aaronpk PuSH is content agnostic
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aaronpk "If the topic is an XML based feed..." https://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/git/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html#discovery
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aaronpk "Similarly, for HTML pages..."
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aaronpk can I also say thank you to the people that decided to use regular form-encoding for the PuSH setup requests vs xmlrpc?
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aaronpk yea we can just use this
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bret Also wtf is pubsubhub?
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bret #osfw3c
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aaronpk oh the guy that reinvented it?
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bret i felt bad for him
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aaronpk heh
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bret How are we handling non-response, but directed at a person posts? Just web mention the root domain for that person right?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk think of webmention as a way of letting the person know your page linkde to their page, nothing more
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aaronpk so the link is there, they're going to find it one way or another. sending a webmention just makes it more realtime
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bret Tried to do that to benwerd the other day, but he wasn't accepting web mentions unless it was attached to an item
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aaronpk ah yea
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bret Its more like an indieweb mention, with an optional reply context rather than comments….. how does twitter talk about this stuff?
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bret on notes
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aaronpk if you @reply someone on twitter they see it in the list of their mentions, just like you'd expect
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bret but that not a comment, right
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bret ?
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aaronpk no
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aaronpk a comment has to be in response to a post
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aaronpk what's the issue?
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bret I'm confused on the difference between a comment and a reply
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk we've had this discussion before
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bret other than one is a reply to a post
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aaronpk also does it really matter?
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Reply_distinction
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bret probrably not :P
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bret thanks aaronpk
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aaronpk new problem: my posts do not have a "u-syndication" link to the app.net version, because my code has no idea that app.net syndicated my post
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aaronpk possible solution: app.net sends me a webmention when they pull in one of my posts. since I'd parse it and see their u-url link back to my post, I can recognize that and add the u-syndication link in my post
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aaronpk !tell voidfiles what happened to the u-url markup on the link back to my post? I thought the "from aaronparecki.com" text used to have a class of "u-url". Example of parsed post here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falpha.app.net%2Faaronpk%2Fpost%2F8667079
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk man I really like sandeep's format of super short articles
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aaronpk e.g. http://www.sandeep.io/121
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aaronpk a nice side effect is http://www.sandeep.io/indieweb/ ends up being a miniblog of indieweb stuff
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/08/09/1/better-syndication-support-for-silos
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@webtechman @appfusions @ellenfeaheny @t @aaronpk @benwerd @ciberch @eric_meeks @gfxman @kevinmarks @lehawes Thx4 Enterprise #OpenSocial event #osfw3c (twitter.com/_/status/366019164143493120)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/08/09/1/better-syndication-support-for-silos linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication (webmention)
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters you should syndicate this reply to indienews since the original article is also on indienews! http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RPKPs/ which brings up a question of whether that kind of thing should happen automatically!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk e.g. my post is in-reply-to post X. I parse post X and see a u-syndication link that I recognize (Twitter, IndieNews, App.net, etc) and if I recognize it then I also include a u-syndication link to the same place
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aaronpk that would enable automatic threading of conversations on twitter, app.net, indienews, etc
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aaronpk come to think of it this is already described on the posse to twitter page
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aaronpk it shoud just be made more generic
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tantek really needs to split the comment page into comment vs. reply pages
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@veganstraightedge RT @t: thoughtful and well-written analysis of #JSONLD by @veganstraightedge http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-uneeded-spec it was a topic at #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RS1) (twitter.com/_/status/366025630548111361)
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tantek it's context. reply is the permalink. comment is the syndicated copy shown below the original post.
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@jalbertbowdenii Password-less Logins from Your Own Domain with a Pebble Watch http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/07/15/1/password-less-logins-from-your-own-domain-with-a-pebble-watch #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/366053377676816387)
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tantek bret, still got a typo - http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/ s/indiweb/indieweb :)
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tantek.com edited /comment (+124) "/* Reply distinction */ simplify existing distinctions, add permalink vs. syndicated copy distinction for reply vs. comment terminology" (view diff)
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@CjopCjop . @t What do you mean by ‘domain tweeting’ I’m curious. #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/366068101512560643)
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bret thanks tantek, major fail :(
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tantek no, just partial ;)
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bret btw, SFO basically sucks
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tantek sorry about that
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bret not your fault :p The outlet situation is crazy
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bret (editing my system dictionary to autocorrect indiweb->indieweb
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shaners tantek bret aaronpk et al: anyone of you wanna do a little html+mf2 audit of a couple urls for me on my site?
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bret ill poke my head in and look
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shaners i ran my articles h-feed thru h-reader and the resulting feed only had headings. not bodies.
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shaners bret: http://sbb.me/b
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shaners single article is slightly different: http://sbb.me/b4RR1
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shaners single note: http://sbb.me/n4RQN
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shaners just, you know, sanity check them. any glaring mistakes or missing bits?
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bret thats classic uF right?
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tantek shaners, ahem, http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A//iamshane.com/articles ;)
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shaners whoa. that's some weird new shit.
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shaners yikes.
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shaners tantek: what are your feels about pubdate attr?
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shaners should i just move on or hold out and keep using it?
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bret I need to start writing some rake tasks in travisCI to validate every time I publish
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shaners bret: it should be uf and uf2
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bret well uf2 looks okay http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fiamshane.com%2Farticles%2F2012%2F12%2F22%2F1%2Fx-mas-parties-with-annekes-family
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bret its not obvious what is wrong to me, but starting with the validation might help
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bret benwerd… whats with the email :p
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tantek pubdate attribute has been dropped from HTML5
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tantek bret - did you resend a webmention?
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bret not yet
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tantek ah ok - hence it's still typo on sandeep's site
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bret on the phone
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bret brb
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bret working on autogeneration of one liner webmentions
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bret before I send the update
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tantek ooh nice!
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bret Ill be sure to update the wiki, but it requires one more standard cli tool
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bret xmllint
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tantek huh. for the webmentions?
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tantek rewatching Darwin's Dangerous Idea
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tantek love this quote: "given enough time, and innumerable small events, anything can take place by the laws of nature"
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bret tantek: for discovery
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bret tantek: right now its a two step process, I have my site generate this: http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
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bret every two lines provides all the nessisary info to send a web mention for a post
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bret I want to get it down to one line per post
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tantek ah ok
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shaners bret: and then you run those by hand?
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bret thats what I am doing right now, yes, but once I get the one liners, it is one step closer to automating
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bret Ben suggested xmlint, but if anyone else recommends a way to parse the href out of a rel="http://webmention.org/" with curl I'm all ears
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tantek bret - this give you JSON: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbret.io%2F2013%2F08%2F08%2Ft5%2F
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tantek from which you can check the rels dictionary
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tantek and lookup ["http:\/\/webmention.org\/"]
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tantek and just grab the first item of that array [0]
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tantek http:\/\/pingback.me\/bcomnes\/webmention
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bret since this is only temporary, I don't think it would be that offensive to use pin13 as part of the manual flow
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@sistarielle RT @w3c: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Standards Workshop, etc. http://t.co/2tUC… (twitter.com/_/status/366082912736653315)
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shaners tantek: valid again! http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fiamshane.com
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bret woop!
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bret tantek: any recommendation on CLI toosl to parse json?
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tommorris bret: for debugging, I recommend `python -mjson.tool` - will throw an error if the JSON isn't valid, and it pretty prints it
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tommorris otherwise, Your Favourite Programming Langauge. Ruby, Python etc.
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bret the bigger question is how to get these pairs of commands into one line: http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
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bret i might be too burnt out to work on this tonight
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aaronpk bret: I think I can hack something up with sed
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aaronpk although you know if you're already running a ruby stack to generate the jekyll site you might as well do this in ruby
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bret I'm not always on the same computer with ruby
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aaronpk ah right cause of prose.io
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aaronpk bret: ok this gives you the webmention endpoint:
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aaronpk curl -i -s http://www.sandeep.io/123 | grep 'rel="http://webmention.org/"' | sed 's/rel="http:\/\/webmention.org\/"//' | grep -o -E 'https?://[^ ">]+' | sort | uniq
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aaronpk so here is your one-liner:
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aaronpk curl -i -d "source=http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/&target=http://www.sandeep.io/123" `curl -i -s http://www.sandeep.io/123 | grep 'rel="http://webmention.org/"' | sed 's/rel="http:\/\/webmention.org\/"//' | grep -o -E 'https?://[^ ">]+' | sort | uniq`
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neuro` 'morning (ugt indeed)
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bret sweet aaronpk :) http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk crazy script lol
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tommorris curses at Java some more for not having closures. ;)
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neuro` Good!
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bret aaronpk: it only works on sandeep's site.
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bret maybe there is just too much variance to do this with just the html
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bret need to uF parse it first?
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aaronpk hah
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aaronpk let me see
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bret Ben suggested using xmlint
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bret but i am just getting confused by that
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aaronpk but you also have to look at the http header which that won't help you with
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aaronpk hm it found werd.io fine
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aaronpk it finds mine...
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aaronpk which didn't it work with?
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bret oh bullshit, SFO wifi disconnected as I was testing
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bret your right, my bad
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aaronpk hahah oh yea it does that
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aaronpk was driving me crazy last night
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aaronpk was impressed the wifi was fast and stable though, that was nice
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bret 1475 to portland now leaving at 1:10
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bret >:[
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aaronpk oh no, united or alaska?
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bret united
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aaronpk that happened to me yesterday :(
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aaronpk except my 8:10 alaska flight ended up departing at 2:50am. luckily I transferred to the united flight and left at like 11:30pm
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aaronpk remind me never to fly to SFO again. stick with OAK
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bret I'm going to go talk to them
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bret did you have to pay to do that?
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aaronpk no, alaska offered to switch me
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aaronpk unfortunately I don't think there are any other options going back to portland tonight. but yea go talk to them
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bret maybe at least get this cab paid for
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aaronpk yea
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aaronpk alright i'm out. goodnight and good luck getting back to pdx!
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Loqi goodnight!
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bret bye
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bret.io edited /webmention (+303) "/* How to Test Webmentions */ Added one-liner webmentions, thanks aaron!" (view diff)
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jihaisse hello
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@lindsayromantic RT @LizaPerrat: Any #writers needing #SelfPub tips? @TriskeleBooks blog has a great collection: http://triskelebooks.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/collection-of-self-publishing-tips-for.html #WriteTip #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/366123400646770688)
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@dellasm RT @LizaPerrat: Any #writers needing #SelfPub tips? @TriskeleBooks blog has a great collection: http://triskelebooks.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/collection-of-self-publishing-tips-for.html #WriteTip #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/366123782622023680)
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tantek greetings, I'm up late for various reasons, but that means I'm going through some indieweb thoughts in my queue
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tantek first-up, thoughts on expanding POSSE to POSSE CRUD
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tantek I'll write-up the theory on the POSSE page, and a possible implementation on the Twitter page
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tantek or maybe I'll just explain it on the POSSE page, with Twitter as an example
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+3059) "add POSSE CRUD thoughts" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /syndication-link-use-cases (+351) "Enable POSSE CRUD" (view diff)
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tantek thoughts posted. might try implementing it in the morning if it still makes sense :)
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tantek !tell benwerd you in particular have a nice web UI for editing / deleting your posts, and you POSSE publish them, thus I'd be interested in your feedback on this full POSSE CRUD thinking: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@t posted thoughts on expanding #indieweb #POSSE to full POSSE #CRUD functionality: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD (ttk.me t4RT1) (twitter.com/_/status/366138571071033344)
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hadleybeeman tantek, are you all working on reader tools as well as publishing ones?
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tantek some folks are yes, as that is a logical step
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tantek personal reader tools in particular, integrated into the personal posting flow
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hadleybeeman Dependent on outgoing APIs from silos? (And RSS/ATOM, etc)
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tantek since integrated reading/posting UIs (e.g. Twitter, FB) have effectively obsoleted standalone "readers" (RSS readers/aggregators etc.)
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hadleybeeman What does "personal reader" mean?
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tantek it means it's on your site
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hadleybeeman but pulling content from anywhere? (in any format?)
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tantek folks building readers are starting with pulling from indieweb sources of course, for which all they need to do is read the h-entry content from the HTML
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tantek which most such folks are already doing for comments and reply-context scenarios
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tantek thus "reading" is just another view
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hadleybeeman That makes sense.
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tantek well that's f-d up - the first Google result for "reader" is Google Reader
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hadleybeeman (I haven't thought through this part of the user journey before. I appreciate you entertaining my questions.)
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tantek (before Adobe Reader)
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hadleybeeman That's funny. The Indexing team obviously haven't caught up with the Product Strategy team.
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tantek anyone else seeing this? https://www.google.com/search?q=reader
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tantek (first result)
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hadleybeeman It's even better that the summary begins, "Google Reader has been discontinued."
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tantek that's not what I see
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tantek I see "A description for this result is not available because of this site's robots.txt – learn more."
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hadleybeeman Odd. Maybe because I'm on google.co.uk?
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hadleybeeman "Google Reader has been discontinued. We want to thank all our loyal fans. We understand you may not agree with this decision, but we hope you'll come to love ..."
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tommorris tantek: yeah, google reader is top result for me too. ;)
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tommorris I'm somewhat disappointed that the WP article for 'Reader (academic rank)' is so low on that page. ;)
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tantek.com created /reader (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek hadleybeeman - here you go: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader
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tantek pretty sure sandeepshetty or eschnou was working on integrated reading on their personal sites too
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tommorris I'm using feedbin.me for my reading, and a very average iOS app called Mr Reader.
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tantek !tell sandeepshetty if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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hadleybeeman Thanks, tantek.
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tommorris but building the reader into my site might make sense
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tantek !tell eschnou if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek tommorris - it's part of the whole replace having to use silo UX at all
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tantek if you had reading built into your own site, would you ever need to visit Twitter or touch a Twitter client again?
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tantek or could your own site provide you with a superset of Twitter-like functionality?
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tommorris well twitter with better filtering and non-twitter sources.;)
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hadleybeeman Oh, also, tantek — I saw some reference (of yours) somewhere to an anti-prism article... something like #ownyourdata #yestheydo —
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tantek exactly, superset
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hadleybeeman has anyone written on the indieweb and government surveillance?
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tantek hadleybeeman - have you not seen PRISM break?
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tantek it hit fastco today I think
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tantek from none other than our own eschnou :)
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hadleybeeman Ah. A number of articles used that headline weeks ago, so I've tuned it out. Now I'm sorry.
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (+541) "added some more indieweb perspective on why a personal reader" (view diff)
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tantek this is the key post: https://eschnou.com/entry/implementing-prism-break-62-25013.html
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bret Made it to pdx :)
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tantek bret - woot!
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Loqi woot
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bret Waiting for a cab
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tantek and here's the interview with Eschnou on fastcolabs: http://www.fastcolabs.com/3015444/prism-break-how-this-developer-created-his-own-cloud
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tommorris I fixed my site's crapy twitter posting earlier btw.
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tantek hadleybeeman - checkout those two articles
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tommorris some of my posts weren't being syndicated out.
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hadleybeeman So the general approach is "if you do it yourself, then you'll be able to control who has access?" (Well, moreso)
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tommorris I'm sure that the NSA can get my SSH keys. But it may be a tiny bit harder than them getting my Gmail password.
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bret tantek: Do you know if iwc2013 was ever written up by the guy from wired?
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tommorris That said, the best policy is to treat ALL internet communications as possibly public
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tantek bret - haven't seen it - maybe he's doing it for the print version?
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tantek tommorris - unfortunately true
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tommorris If you wouldn't say it in front of your mother or it would cause you great embarassment if it were on page one of the NYT, don't put it on the Internet
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tommorris has learned this the hard way a few times. ;)
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bret It's insane that I can't set up my own zrtp server in an afternoon
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hadleybeeman tommorris: for us, yes. I agree. But for planning out an internet that will work for the world: some semblance of trust is important.
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bret Anyone understand what the open mustard seed thing was?
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tommorris incidentally, this is one of the reasons why I got very annoyed by a lot of federated-social-networking stuff. every vaguely sane proposal was blocked by privacy people because it failed to solve the problem of privacy.
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tommorris even though you basically can't solve the privacy problem
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tommorris it's not a technical problem, it's a human problem
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tommorris it stems from the fact that people are stupid and will do stupid things with technology.
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bret tommorris: Are you using rdfa on your site?
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tantek tommorris - so we eventually started to ignore the privacy people because they didn't selfdogfood
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hadleybeeman Well, I'm not just thinking about sharing content on the social web. Bank transactions, purchases, diplomacy... all this stuff depends on the same infrastructure.
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tommorris bret: yep, a bit.
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tantek worked as a good filter
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bret tommorris: how come?
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tommorris bret: I have marked up my dietary preferences and sexual orientation using RDFa, because why not? ;)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+316) "add PRISM break articles related to the indieweb" (view diff)
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tommorris bret: how come I publish RDFa or how come <something about privacy>?
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bret I don't know why not :p
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bret Rdfa
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tantek hadleybeeman - in general this is pretty well-curated list: http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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tommorris bret: because I'm a die-hard semweb masochist freak.
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bret :)
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tommorris albeit a practical die-hard semweb masochist freak. that's why I publish microformats too.
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hadleybeeman Anyway, overall I'm trying to find ways to take what is happening here, in the indieweb community, and extrapolate it into the government-based "how should the Internet work?" conversations.
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tommorris and also why I'm writing a microformats2 parser
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tantek tommorris - that being said, I'd be interested to know your opinion of trying to use h-card gender/sex properties and note what's lacking
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hadleybeeman So even the privacy stuff (which may be out of scope here) can grow from what you're doing.
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tantek hadleybeeman - yes it likely can
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bret What advantages does rdf have?
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tantek it's just that focusing on privacy first is a dead-end
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hadleybeeman Here, yes.
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tantek bret - I see you're committing to keeping yourself awake ;)
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tommorris Diaspora was privacy-first.
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bret tantek: Unfortunately. Waiting for a cab.
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tommorris bret: RDF lets you express richer semantics, at the cost of increased complexity.
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tantek tommorris - the eating preferences thing I'd like to figure out too
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tantek since I do publicly post my eating preferences
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bret tommorris: do you also do micro data?
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tantek and I feel like there's some sort of nerd pizza-ordering application potential that could read people's preferences
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bret Haha!
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tommorris bret: no to microdata.
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bret Slash pizza
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tommorris tantek: I published an RDFa-ish schema at http://schema.tommorris.org/diet
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bret The schema.org guy got railed on this week
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tantek tommorris - did you do any research of existing dietary formats/schema? e.g. airline preferences? w3c conference preferences?
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 8 hours, 21 minutes ago: you should syndicate this reply to indienews since the original article is also on indienews! http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RPKPs/ which brings up a question of whether that kind of thing should happen automatically!
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hadleybeeman yes, please! to pizza ordering apps. No gluten on mine, thanks.
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tantek any preferences would need to capture nuances like allergy, religious, etc.
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tommorris Well, I figure it's one of those incremental things.
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tommorris Being able to get a rough idea of the number of vegetarians and vegans would be a start
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tantek where allergy really means none at all - safety issue
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barnabywalters religious aversion to pizza? that’s not something I’ve come across before
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tantek religious might mean if it's unnoticeable, don't ask / don't tell
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tantek etc.
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barnabywalters good morning indiewebcamp
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tommorris hey barnabywalters
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tantek barnabywalters, e.g. religious aversion to use of any cooking / food prep utensils/facilities that have touched pork
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tommorris tantek: and, no, no research, I'm afraid.
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barnabywalters ah, of course
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tommorris well, also, religious preferences may include not eating at certain times
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hadleybeeman You know, actually, tommorris — finding restaurants for Sunday dinners would be so much easier if we could do this ad cross reference it against marked-up data from the venues
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tantek but in practice that's mostly a choice of don't tell me
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bret Mmm pork
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tantek lol
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tantek tommorris - ah, classic semweb schema style then (make it up without research into priori art ;) )
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tantek s/priori/prior
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Loqi tantek meant to say: tommorris - ah, classic semweb schema style then (make it up without research into prior art ;) )
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tommorris tantek: well, more publishing-my-own-personal-preferences-as-first-draft
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tommorris while leaving it open for others to tell me I'm wrong
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bret I wonder if it would be more helpful to run pump.io and help implement idieweb stuff their. Pondering that after this week
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tommorris using dbpedia for the values means there's a community who've thought about it a bit.
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bret There
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hadleybeeman How are you all running #indiewebcamp? Is it a proper barcamp, with sessions?
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tantek tommorris - I don't trust "thought about it" any more from folks who don't publish their work/research openly on the web
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tantek it's like, if you've thought about it, citation needed
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tantek hadleybeeman - two days. brainstorming and creating
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tommorris hadleybeeman: do go along. it's fun. I'm very annoyed I'm going to be missing it.
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tantek 3 min demos at the start of what people have working today, demos at the end of what people got working during the camp.
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hadleybeeman Two days, tantek? I thought it was just Sunday.
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tantek hadleybeeman - what, you're not subscribed to the ical feed to the event? ;)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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bret tantek: Couldn't get that to work in gCal
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tantek (from the hCalendar obv)
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hadleybeeman No. Just the lanyrd page. And watching the wiki page. (CLEARLYY not enough!) :)
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tantek bret - because gcal is dumb about robots
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tantek wiki page has been updated for a while
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bret GCal is dumb in a lot of ways
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tantek ah, as has the Lanyrd!
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tantek http://lanyrd.com/2013/indiewebcampuk/
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hadleybeeman you're welcome for that :)
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bret hadleybeeman: Iwc is way fun. I has never done anything like it before.
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hadleybeeman Hmm. I want to get some discussion going about what changes in governments/policy would support this. Internet governance is, in many ways, up for grabs. And there isn't enough clear thinking in the space.
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hadleybeeman Is that something we could use IWC for? Or is it hacking-on-your-own time?
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tommorris I'm not sure what sort of relationship would exist between government/policy and indieweb. We could get David Cameron to stop tweeting and start POSSEing, maybe. ;)
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tommorris Or Obama. Or government departments.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: RE syndicating comments to indienews, I added rel-syndication to that note and sent a webmention, the response said success but I can’t see the comment on news.indiewebcamp.com…?
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tommorris In fact, I know the BBC have had complaints about how much they push Twitter with people saying that it's kind of mad that license fee funded content is only available on a commercially run social network rather than on the ad-free (and corporate-surveillance-free) BBC website
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barnabywalters tommorris: yeah, I’ve always felt uncomfortable about how much the BBC use and promote twitter
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tommorris (but since when were principles important in social media land?)
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bret tantek: Do you give out your mifi password at events?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: also, news.indiewebcamp.com said it couldn’t find an author mf for my reply so was using the domain name instead
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tommorris hadleybeeman: https://twitter.com/adrianshort/status/366140862368976896 ;)
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@adrianshort Lest anyone doubt the UK's technology leadership: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23601984 #globalrace /via @tommorris
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tantek bret - not usually unless we really need it for a demo or something
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hadleybeeman tommorris: think bigger. If the Indieweb problem to solve is that right now, the power is in the hands of a few companies...
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tantek hey bret - now that you've landed, would appreciate your thoughts on: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD
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hadleybeeman (and that has knock-on effects for ownership of data, central points for surveillance, etc.)
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bret I'm about to go to sleep but I will tomorrow
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tantek hadleybeeman - I'm afraid the kind of thinking you're asking for is pretty far out - at least until people involved in those circles start sefldogfooding.
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tantek bret - totally fair. I should be asleep but made the mistake (much earlier this evening) of watching ep1 of that Netflix Orange Black show - too disturbing :(
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tommorris hadleybeeman: yesterday, I spent an hour with my head inside a Java debugger. privacy and surveillance and public policy is a bit beyond my pay grade. :)
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hadleybeeman then one of the questions I think we should be asking is "how should this all be balanced out? Who should have the power? And what do we need to build to get us there?"
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tantek hadleybeeman - sounds like you should write a short blog post about that :)
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tantek and with that I'm going to try to actually get some sleep :/
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hadleybeeman Sleep well.
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barnabywalters goodnight
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Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
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hadleybeeman tommorris, isn't this exactly the sort of thinking that started the indieweb movement in the first place?
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tommorris hadleybeeman: I'm not sure it was so much Edward Snowden and Wikileaks that started most of us off as getting irritated by Twitter's API changes and so on.
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tommorris it's frustration-driven-development rather than grand-ideology-driven-development
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hadleybeeman Sure. But the common thread is not having control over your own stuff, no?
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tommorris yep
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tommorris and more broadly, I'd like to own a lot more of my own data
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tommorris I'd much rather my health records were an encrypted USB stick that I could set the permissions on rather than a gigantic national database
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tommorris I'd rather like it if the British Library didn't keep meticulous records of every book I requested in the reading room
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tommorris or rather, they would notify me for my own records and then destroy their own records after 30 days
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tommorris I'd like it if I could get the records the government keeps on me, not as a one-off freedom-of-information or subject access request, but as a sort of WebHook-style API
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tommorris I'd like it if I could sign contracts digitally and deliver them in an encrypted way.
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tommorris I'd like it if the government and banks could trust my GPG signature more than they trusted my easily-impersonated physical signature
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tommorris Apparenlty, if you can write my name on a piece of paper, you can convince people that you are me for legal purposes.
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hadleybeeman And why, tommorris? Some of this is for simplicity sake — life gets easier for you. But ideologically, why is this how you think it should work for everyone?
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barnabywalters I’d like it if I could access the status of all the various tax/business/government stuff I have to do, visualise it and automate it
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barnabywalters but that’s convenience more than data control
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hadleybeeman There's a good (governmental) argument for convenience too, barnabywalters. It usually means more time for doing jobs/making money/economy growing.
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hadleybeeman (Oh, and happy voters, as well.)
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tommorris hadleybeeman: because there are certain expectations we have about how the world operates in physical space, and I'd like to see something similar on the internet.
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tommorris like, if you go into a bar and, say, drink a bit too much, you know that the bar owner isn't going to take the CCTV tapes and distribute them to friends for a laugh
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tommorris being able to see how the system operates means one can make decisions about how to live and act in a more informed way
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tommorris as for the privacy point, I think that anonymity is a great thing.
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tommorris one of the things I loved most about living in a city is relative anonymity
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tommorris I've lived in the countryside, in a small community, and I hate curtain-twitching gossips.
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hadleybeeman That's how I grew up too
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tommorris I dislike, say, libraries keeping records of all the books I borrow for the same reason I dislike nosy neighbours keeping tabs on who visits my house
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hadleybeeman Given that the capacity exists for keeping those records, I'm guessing you don't support pulling the capacity (all databases) out of libraries, right?
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tommorris no, but I'd like the ability to log in and say "forget everything before this date", or be able to download a usable copy of it
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hadleybeeman So would it be enough to solve the problem to say, "You're not allowed to use this data in that way? Or run these types of queries on it?"
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tommorris I'd like for the government to reach a point where they can trust me not to need that data. ;)
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hadleybeeman But the libraries still need to now that someone likes all the different genres you like, so they can put books in the right libraries, no? </devil's advocate>
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barnabywalters it would be enough for the data to be tangible — it needs to be obviously accessible, easy to read, easy to delete
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barnabywalters but then there’s the question of “did I actually delete this or did they keep a copy”
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tommorris (well, in the case of libraries, I don't think they should be driven exclusively or primarily by borrowing data but by the expert judgments of librarians and by the difficulty of acquisition in a free market.)
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tommorris (that is, libraries exist to serve some kind of Platonic Knowledge and Taste rather than populist tastes.)
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hadleybeeman Tommorris: and you would deprive them of usage data to inform their rx
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tommorris (but that's an aside)
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hadleybeeman S/rx/expert view
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tommorris anonymized data is fine, sure. personally identifiable information shouldn't be
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tommorris there's actually a big difference between here and the US
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tommorris in the US, they delete library borrowing information very quickly after a person has returned a book - usually within a few days
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tommorris when the US government after 9/11 wanted to use library borrowing records to identify terror suspects, the librarians were courageous in saying no
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hadleybeeman Barnabywalters: Is that a question of whether or not you trust them to execute your delete command?
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tommorris and saying that borrowing a Qu'ran doesn't make you a suspect, it only means you are a person who wants to read a Qu'ran.
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tommorris here: libraries keep extensive records of what you read and hand them over to the police on request.
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tommorris the problem is that the inference done on this data isn't visible to the subjects of the data
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hadleybeeman (I thought that was happening in the US? though memory is from 10 years agoh~
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barnabywalters hadleybeeman: yes
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tommorris hadleybeeman: it was, and librarians very valiantly refused the USA PATRIOT Act demands, and deleted records rather than hand them over. Librarians are badasses.
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barnabywalters tommorris: were they labelled traitors?
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hadleybeeman Barnabywalters: And that's because you know (as a developer) that keeping a copy is a relatively trivial thing to do, right?
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tommorris Oh, most probably.
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barnabywalters hadleybeeman: indeed
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hadleybeeman (that's awesome, tommorris)
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pdurbin tommorris: https://twitter.com/mrnick/status/363308924222865408
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@mrnick And shambrarians RT @cgknowles: #rfringe13 @figshare "librarians are badass" https://twitter.com/cgknowles/status/363308037273944064/photo/1
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hadleybeeman Right, barnabywalters: if I were sitting next to you, I could pick up your laptop and walk off with it, could
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hadleybeeman Nt
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hadleybeeman Couldn't I?
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barnabywalters hadleybeeman: well, I wouldn’t be very happy about it, but it could happen :)
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tommorris hadleybeeman: that reminds me, at my birthday party, did you meet @shimgray?
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hadleybeeman Understandably. :) And we have a) expectations of behaviour that tell me I shouldn't, and b) laws and consequences for me if I do.
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tommorris hadleybeeman: he's now a really amazing job - he's the librarian for the British Antarctic Survey.
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hadleybeeman But we haven't had to make it impossible for me to take your laptop.
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tommorris @generalising rather
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barnabywalters hadleybeeman: yep, and even if the details of the laws aren’t widely known, there’s wide awareness of them
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hadleybeeman So my question is... can we do the same thing with data management?
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hadleybeeman (genuine question. I'm not sure)
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hadleybeeman I don't Tim
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hadleybeeman is losing patience with her iPad keyboard
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hadleybeeman I don't think so, tommorris. Sounds like an amazing job though!
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tommorris he used to be the Wikipedian in Residence at the British Library. anyway, just as an aside, you should follow him. he's interesting.
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barnabywalters if you took my laptop, I can say with certainty that you’ve taken it. I no longer have it, and you’re holding it. If you give it back, I now have it again. if you make a copy of my data, then tell me to delete it… I have no way of verifying that
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barnabywalters s/tell me to delete it/tell me you’ve deleted it
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: if you took my laptop, I can say with certainty that you’ve taken it. I no longer have it, and you’re holding it. If you give it back, I now have it again. if you make a copy of my data, then tell me you’ve deleted it… I have no way of verifying that
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barnabywalters the way computers work make it very easy to lie about things
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hadleybeeman That's true
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hadleybeeman the verification is a lot harder.
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hadleybeeman Would you feel better if the punishment for lying were more severe?
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barnabywalters and encryption doesn’t solve anything if at any point the information becomes decrypted, which is useful for actually using it
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barnabywalters hadleybeeman: if it’s near-impossible to verify that someone is lying, that doesn’t fix much
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tommorris hadleybeeman: I'd feel a lot better if the ICO had some teeth. the overriding of the ICO's decision on Prince Charles' letters by the Attorney General gives me good reason to think that they aren't as useful as they could be
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tommorris I'd feel a lot better if every government database project wasn't such a cock-up.
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hadleybeeman Hmm. But if we can't trust anyone, then things grind to a halt. So there has to be some combination of "the risk is worth it," there's accountability, and users have control over what goes out about them. (Perhaps)
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hadleybeeman tommorris, not every government database project IS a cock-up. Just the ones that make the press.
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tommorris there've been some corkers though
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hadleybeeman But if we're dreaming, then what kind of teeth *should* the Information Commissioner have?
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barnabywalters talking of data tangibility: how does one actually make a FOI request? in what sort of format is the data?
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barnabywalters facebook-style PDF mailed to you on a floppy disk?
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hadleybeeman "machine readible", barnaby walters. :) No, it's not that bad.
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tommorris hadleybeeman: power to physically remove and destroy servers if big companies fail to adhere to privacy law? ;-)
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hadleybeeman I'm not sure where you are, but at least in the UK you can either send a letter or post it on a site like whatdotheyknow.com, where the responses are made public
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hadleybeeman Okay, tommorris. Build the case. Why would that help?
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tommorris it'd have to be EU-wide, but "hey, the cops have come in and destroyed our expensive boxen" may give companies a certain kick up the arse to comply with privacy laws.
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tommorris I'd like to see clear and readable T&Cs, possibly with human-understandable metadata. rather than the whole 52-pages-of-tiny-text iTunes-style agreements
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hadleybeeman *nods* I'm with you on the boxes.
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hadleybeeman What would clearer T&Cs accomplish?
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tommorris well, it means individual users would be able to make decisions about social network use that don't require a lawyer
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tommorris Wikimedia recently went to the effort of dramatically simplyfing their terms of use - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
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hadleybeeman So, better informed consumers can make choices in their own interest?
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tommorris absolutely
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hadleybeeman I'm really feeling the need to put all these players up on a white board and start drawing arrows between them. "What they want" and "what they can give".
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Loqi eschnou: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 19 minutes ago: if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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hadleybeeman There's a lot to flesh out here.
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hadleybeeman eschnou: we were just looking at your prism break stuff. Well organised! Thank you.
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hadleybeeman Right — with that, I need to start my Saturday.
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tommorris I need to get back to Kant and Hans-Georg Gadamer
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hadleybeeman Thanks for the chat, all (tommorris, barnabywalters, tantek) Undoubtedly this will go on... there's a lot to unpack here. But your input is useful.
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barnabywalters it’s gay pride later on here in Reykjavik — so I should probably have a shower and breakfast and generally wake up properly
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hadleybeeman :) have a great weekend then
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hadleybeeman bye for now!
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barnabywalters and you
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tommorris barnabywalters: do take some photos.
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barnabywalters tommorris: will do. apparently it’s quite a spectacle
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tommorris has a gander at Prism Break
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tommorris I'd expect nothing less.
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eschnou hadleybeeman, Thanks!
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eschnou tantek, yes it's in the plans, however everything on backburner due to sunny summer pulling me away from my laptop in the evenings :-) Will update the wiki with comments if any.
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tommorris Ooh, Adblock Edge. Adblock Plus but with the "allow acceptable ads" feature removed.
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@katmandelstein RT @_pius: Put #indieweb into MBA terms and call it a low-end disruption of current standards. Enterprise IT will race to adopt it. #osfw3c (twitter.com/_/status/366197162410909697)
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cjopcjop good morning all
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cjopcjop Thanks for introducing me to POSSE tantek
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tantek welcome cjopcjop!
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cjopcjop I was wondering if there was a how to guide for POSSE
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aaronpk is catching up on logs
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pdurbin cjopcjop: tons of stuff in the wiki
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aaronpk slash pizza lol http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376130966
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pdurbin cjopcjop: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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aaronpk tantek: I'd experiment with publishing my eating preferences. one challenge for me is I haven't found any existing labels that describe how I eat exactly. (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376130924)
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters I think it didn't work because your "in-reply-to" is a full citation and I think I was looking just for a URL (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131834)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk bret: not a bad idea to pick up work on pump.io! it's all node.js so probably not that hard to pick up since you've already been doing JS stuff! (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131314)
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cjopcjop my apologies pdurbin, but I'm not finding any setup guides on POSSE via the wiki, could you be so kind as to link for me
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tantek aaronpk - similarly I've just been putting my eating preferences on a wiki page
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pdurbin cjopcjop: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE doesn't help?
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tantek cjopcjop - you may want to start with the getting started page: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek aaronpk - http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek not that sorrty
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tantek this: http://tantek.com/w/FoodPreferences
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pdurbin aaronpk has a pretty good start ;)
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tantek pdurbin indeed :)
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aaronpk hadleybeeman: we've definitely taken the approach of own-your-data as the instigator more than the privacy side of things. this is probably made apparent by the extensive list of sites that have shut down http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376132290)
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tantek searching for food preferences led me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_choice
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cjopcjop pdurbin, I'm under the impression that POSSE is script, and thus, I'm looking for it
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cjopcjop There doesn't seem to be a section on how to implement POSSE, moreso touting its benefits. I'm obviously missing something here :)
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tantek cjopcjop POSSE is a technique that you can implement in any blog posting software, to any set of possible POSSE destinations
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tantek right now there is no one POSSE implementation technique, it's per silo
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tantek see http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#POSSE_Destinations
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+83) "/* POSSE Destinations */ add some prelim wording re: implement" (view diff)
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cjopcjop ahh, understood. That did not seem clear to me at first.
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cjopcjop so I HAVE to use a third party blogging app
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+59) "/* POSSE Destinations */ main articles" (view diff)
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tantek cjopcjop - or write your own. most of us have ended up doing that: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#experimental
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aaronpk cjopcjop: no, you just need to publish some html on your site in some way you choose
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cjopcjop aaronpk, wonderful! That's what I was hopijng for :)
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aaronpk it is the web after all!
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cjopcjop I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds but I believe examples on the wiki would greatly benefit the newby such as myself to get a solid grasp of the POSEE concept
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cjopcjop per silo of course
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aaronpk cjopcjop: feedback helps for sure! thanks
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cjopcjop aaronpk, would it be possible for you to share an example of your html to twitter POSSE?
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+595) "add a brief How To Implement section clarifying overall implementation approach and steering to POSSE Destinations, recommend starting with Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek cjopcjop - examples are on the specific silo pages' POSSE sections
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tantek see: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter
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aaronpk cjopcjop: I don't do that personally, I have a small system I built (http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k) You can see an example post here: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/08/1/dream
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tantek lots of links to examples of original posts and POSSE copies
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aaronpk breakfast! back in a bit!
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cjopcjop wow! aaronpk, that's a lovely setup man!
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tantek aaronpk - just noticed you're using three period rather than the ellipsis character
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cjopcjop Though it is important for many to realize ou can implement POSSE in multiple ways, perhaps providing packages like aaronpk's P3K would be sweet
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tantek cjopcjop - yes - hence the /projects link I gave above
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tantek p3k is listed there among others :)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+130) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ add an abbreviated POSSE tweet example from aaronpk, cleanup examples a but" (view diff)
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cjopcjop Cheers for your patience tantek :)
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cjopcjop I've been setting up a server and subsequent resources for a similar idea to #indiewebcamp sans le camp under the title #OwnYourData, which is how I found you.
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hadleybeeman Aaronpk: Thanks! I'm actually more concerned with patterns of behaviour right now than the causes. Both privacy & own-your-data are producing similar responses (code) among our community.
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cjopcjop It's in it's infancy at pixel.uni.cx
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cjopcjop I'm looking to find implement and then simplify for the sake of propogation to the layman, web-applications that can be used locally thus helping in both data responsibility and technical knowledge
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cjopcjop If I still lived in the UK, I would gladly attend your camps
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+98) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ link to example note + posse tweet from aaronpk" (view diff)
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tantek cjopcjop - no problem at all - any question you ask is clearly good feedback for better documentation on our part :)
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tantek cjopcjop - there have been indieweb events in various cities - watch this for more: http://indiewebcamp.com/events
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cjopcjop fantastic!
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cjopcjop none in Canada yet, perhaps that should change :)
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2013-08-10/reinstallation-wordpress/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/in-reply-to-fr (pingback)
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shaners tantek aaronpk: I already say that I'm "vegan" on my site. I'd love to mark it up in a h-* usable way.
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shaners while we're at it. I also say that I'm an atheist and anarchist. Have there been any research / effort around religion or politics in h-*?
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@dellasm RT @wordsprof: Backstage at the trailer shoot - 1 way authors can use #Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/stevepiacente/400-pages-in-2-minutes-the-bootlicker-trailer/ #selfpubl #booktrailers #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/366259531690418176)
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shaners on http://dateedge.com we give people these diet choices: raw, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, kosher, freeman, omnivore
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shaners s/freeman/freegan
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Loqi shaners meant to say: on http://dateedge.com we give people these diet choices: raw, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, kosher, freegan, omnivore
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aaronpk shaners: I would choose vegetarian out of that list, but I also have further (voluntary) restrictions
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shaners aaronpk: right. i think there's a case for like "high level label" and "additional nuances". like tantek's diet page. he's a "pescatarian" but then has additional food prefs.
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shaners i'm a "vegan" (and don't eat honey). and *don't like* most pickled things, for example.
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shaners but just a high level label would get us pretty far
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aaronpk I guess what are the use cases for machine readable data vs human readable data
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aaronpk cause it's too easy to go down the rabbit hole of trying to model and mark everything up in a machine readable way
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shaners yep
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shaners but, i haven't done any research about how other people are doing it or what others' needs are. so anything past "what i'd do on my site/s" would be talking out of my ass.
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shaners aaronpk: just spitballing here, do you think this would be a p-diet (or whatever property name) on an h-card. or an h-diet (or whatever name)?
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aaronpk tommorris uses u-x-dietary-preference and links to an HTML page with more info. I like that approach
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aaronpk lets you do "I am vegetarian" with a link to more info, rather than embedding everything in the h-card
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aaronpk although yea we'd still need a property for the high level list of preferences in addition to the url
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tommorris I also have another human readable page - http://wiki.tommorris.org/Explaining_vegetarianism
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aaronpk oh wow you have a mediawiki too?
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tommorris Apparently this whole "vegetarianism = not meat && not fish" things is complicated
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aaronpk lol yea
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tommorris aaronpk: yeah. You can take the Wikipedia admin away from the encyclopedia...
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tommorris I've only got sexual orientation as RDFa though
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tommorris <data property="http://dbpedia.org/property/sexualOrientation" resource="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Homosexuality">...
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shaners aaronpk tommorris: btw, i think calling it a "diet preference" is overly reductive. some people are born into it. etc.
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tommorris Uniformly Indicate all the things!
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aaronpk shaners: yea true
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Loqi INDICATE ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/7m4
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shaners *I* certainly chose to be vegan. but not everyone else chose theirs.
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tommorris shaners: this is true - I chose that on the basis that it is supposed to be useful in particular cases.
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aaronpk wtf kind of crazy html does chrome bookmark export create, ugh
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aaronpk missing close tags all over the place
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shaners i like simply -diet better. it doesn't prescribe any other baggage
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tommorris Supposed to pick out things like vegetarianism, veganism, kosher etc. rather than "I'm on Atkins".
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aaronpk <!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1> lol
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shaners totes lols
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shaners loqi: lol?
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tommorris In addition, when booking airline food, one is usually asked "Meal Preference"
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tommorris The orientation/preference distinction is important w/r/t sexuality but not quite so important w/r/t diet, precisely because there's not a political lobby out there claiming that the etiology of someone's nut allergy should determine whether their nut allergy is respected or not.
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tommorris I'm as close as one gets to born vegetarian. Ever since I had a conscious choice, about 4 or 5 y.o, I've been vegetarian.
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aaronpk is born vegetarian
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aaronpk have never eaten meat
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shaners Hindus. Buddhist. Jews. Muslims. A *lot* of people are born into a diet.
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shaners tommorris: i agree that the implications of "preference" are not the same for sexuality and food that goes into my mouth. i'm def not trying to equate the two.
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shaners just to be clear. ^
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shaners in other news, i've been manually adding attributions links from my wp.com copies back to sbb.me on and off for the past week. and i'm on the home stretch now. :D
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tommorris Wasn't suggesting you were
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shaners i know. but for other people who might read the logs later and get the wrong idea, i wanted to clarify.
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aaronparecki.com edited /osfw3c (+18) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /osfw3c-2013 (+18649) "import from etherpad" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk: pinboard.in provides export in a few different formats. one of which is that old ass terrible html from early netscape style.
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk i'm experimenting with something for chrome right now :)
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aaronpk i need a 16px version of the font-awesome icons though
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 5 minutes ago: I think it didn't work because your "in-reply-to" is a full citation and I think I was looking just for a URL (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-10/line/1376131834)
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SRCR Hi, I'm thinking about building my own website based on the indieweb principals, are there other good sources of info other than indiewebcamp.com (allready going through that..) ?
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shaners hi SRCR!
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aaronpk SRCR: the indiewebcamp wiki has a lot of info, and in some places links out to microformats.org for more detailed info on the various markup. the indiewebcamp wiki is a great place to start!
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shaners http://news.indiewebcamp.com
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shaners http://www.sandeep.io/indieweb/
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shaners http://tagboard.com/ownyourdata
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shaners http://tagboard.com/indieweb
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shaners That should get you started. ;)
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shaners but honestly, here's what you *really* need to start with:
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shaners 1. own your domain
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shaners 2. put an h-card on your homepage
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shaners 3. rel-me any external silo links on your homepage
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shaners 4. mark up posts in h-entry
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shaners that's the starting off point
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shaners from there, you can choose which direction to go with it
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SRCR Ok, Well I got point 1 covered (I got 2 of those :)
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shaners everyone seems to have their own reasons for doing the #indieweb stuffs. and that's great. it means that we exercise ideas in different areas.
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shaners btw, SRCR, how did you fall into this?
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SRCR I was borking on having a site build on one ot them I tried Idno and Storytlr, but didn't like that personally
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barnabywalters SRCR: that’s great! diversity of implementations will only strengthen what we’re doing
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barnabywalters and avoid monoculture
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shaners barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 10 karma
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barnabywalters other than indiewebcamp.com and the sources shaners mentioned, this IRC room is probably the best place to get information :)
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SRCR Well I have been trying to build a own site earlier base more on the PESOS principal (activetystream) but never got it of the ground really.
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SRCR Then I read up on the indiewebcamp stuff not sure how I ended up there, but I like the PESSO idea and I think I would like to start with that and later see if I can get my other data imported in my site.
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barnabywalters SRCR: that’s pretty much what I’ve done — started out building a posting system with POSSE to twitter and facebook, then recently I’ve worked on importing all my old data from Diaspora
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SRCR for me the indiewebcamp site gives me i bit more of a base to get me started before I needd to think everything up myself.
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barnabywalters POSSE is generally preferable to PESOS
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SRCR and I'm not a developer so...
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shaners SRCR: don't be discouraged by not being a "developer". there's quite a bit you can do with existing tools and/or doing things manually.
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shaners e.g., bret manually sends his webmentions to other sites because he hasn't built that part of his site yet
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barnabywalters SRCR: what’s your personal domain? the best place to start would be adding basic indieweb capabilities to what you currently have
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SRCR I have had Diaspora installed (only internally available) but was missing out on what the 'normal' population was doing on facebook and twitter
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barnabywalters SRCR: yeah I was quite active on D* for a while but got disenchanted, built my own solution and now all my content happily lives there
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shaners SRCR: also, after you get some rel-me links on your homepage, login to the idw wiki and create your user page.
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SRCR i have srcr.nl ready to go, only a restart of the webserver is needed, o and some code would be nice to actually run the site :)
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SRCR Are you all developers or more like me amateurs who just give php a try.. (I doing myself a bit short here :))
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barnabywalters I thought I was an amateur until someone started paying me :) we’re a mix of people — designers, developers, standards people, etc.
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 11 karma
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shaners SRCR: we've got a pretty good spectrum of skills and interests
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shaners SRCR: don't ever feel like you can't speak up about something because an "amateur" or "not a programmer". :D
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SRCR We'll I'm in IT, I'm managing the application delivery of about 40 app to a company :) my background is in system and application management
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shaners as long as you're building stuff (#selfdogfood), you're solid
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barnabywalters oh cool — I think eschnou does a lot of that kind of stuff
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barnabywalters ^ what shaners said
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aaronpk barnabywalters: surprisingly that phrase is not on google yet. but now it will be :)
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SRCR Well thanks for the warm welcome and the info I'll switch screen for a bit to read up.
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shaners aaronpk: what phrase?
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/10/1/quote
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barnabywalters I really need to implement original post discovery
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shaners aaronpk: do you think you'll add a Quotation post type for this case? like tumblr has.
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aaronpk yes yes you do
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aaronpk shaners: yea I was just thinking about that
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shaners it's in my list of post types / short url namespaces
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barnabywalters shaners: I have this loose rule where if HTML already has an element for something I want to publish, I just use that
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shaners \/q
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barnabywalters in this case <blockquote>
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aaronpk I don't think I'll make it a top-level type though, more like just different markup inside my note
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barnabywalters things I post with <blockquote> in get auto-tagged with “quote”
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aaronpk my top-level types have their own feeds
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shaners ah
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barnabywalters same with images
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barnabywalters and some other stuff, I forget
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shaners barnabywalters: prolly lists and code
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shaners barnabywalters: are you gonna use h-media for photo posts?
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barnabywalters ooh I don’t think I auto-tag <code> — good call! that would be really handy
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barnabywalters shaners: yes I should probably add h-media to my h-entries with images in
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shaners i'm using h-media for videos (and have it coded for photos)
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shaners http://iamshane.com/videos/2013/5/30/1/backyard-squirrel-buddy
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barnabywalters woah, you’re self hosting videos now?
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barnabywalters nice
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shaners yep. pulled in all of my Vine and YouTube vids.
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shaners Still have to do vimeo and instagarms
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barnabywalters mmm, I’d love to get all my youtube content imported
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shaners I'm not POSSEing yet. just pulling in all the disparate silo data
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shaners barnabywalters: dude. the google takeout dump for youtube is terrible.
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shaners no meta data.
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barnabywalters there’s about 3GB, maybe less if I exclude the private stuff
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barnabywalters shaners: tell me about it :) I wrote at length about it and other stuff: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/data-export/
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shaners Video_Title_as_File_name_truncated_to_some_lengt.mp4
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barnabywalters in comparison to some of the other data export crimes google’s committing, lack of youtube video metadata is quite bearable
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barnabywalters and I think it can all be extracted from some XML API fairly easily
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shaners fortunately, i only had about 2 dozen youtube videos. so I just walked through the edit pages or each one manually.
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barnabywalters so here’s a question: why do video and audio silos prominently display view counts, whereas text silos typically completely ignore it?
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barnabywalters talking specifically about YT, vimeo, soundcloud
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shaners after i got them all on my site, i added a permashortlink in the yt description back to my sbb.me/v copy
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shaners http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWuLzGUwYzM
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shaners barnabywalters: good question. i dunno. vanity?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: interesting question! I think one reason is beacuse it's easier to count a view of a video vs a view of text content and filter out false positives (crawlers)
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shaners we used to show "N visitors" counters on all web pages, remember?
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aaronpk totally
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barnabywalters aaronpk: good point — although tracking scrolling would be trivial
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aaronpk and then the crawlers skewed the number so much
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barnabywalters but it’s more than that — youtube videos are always valued by how many views they’ve had
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tantek shaners - re: vegan / vegetarian etc. - for now just use tags, e.g. <span class="p-category">vegan</span>
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barnabywalters hitting a certain number of views is like a rite of passage
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barnabywalters not so for text
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barnabywalters no-one says “my article had fifteen thousand reads on medium!"
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aaronpk I've noticed that medium.com shows a duration on the post, https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf is a "4 min read". I assume that is determined based on the length of time people spend on the page
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barnabywalters aaronpk: more likely word count…?
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aaronpk text content gets measured more by the number of shares it gets
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aaronpk all the social media widget things show share counts on the silos
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shaners barnabywalters: i earned my "Been Boinged" Nerd Merit Badge a few years back. all the big blogs. top story on reddit, /., digg. etc
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aaronpk http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/9481816356_860ab86d38_o.png
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barnabywalters hm true — but have you ever heard anyone actually talk about those numbers?
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aaronpk even imgur shows view count of images!
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barnabywalters sure, some authors might obsess over them
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yea totally, people compare the "reach" of posts a lot
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barnabywalters aaronpk: really? wow, I’ve never heard anyone talk about those numbers specifically
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tantek my tweet buttons on my articles have the # next to them. it can be entertaining I suppose.
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shaners barnabywalters: Facebook reports on "reach" for promoted posts and for Pages™
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barnabywalters shaners: I should hope so, if people are paying for them :/
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tantek still, all those #s pale in comparison to # of thoughtful comments
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shaners i've personally turned off all analytics for view counts. i only use Google Analytics (for now) for occasional refer research and geo stuff.
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shaners tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 14 karma
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barnabywalters I turned off analytics a while ago
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tantek like the #s some of you show for federated indieweb comments. one day I'll get there too :)
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tantek reads the logs to see what I missed.
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aaronpk tantek: just had an interesting idea for you if you're interested... use pingback.me to collect webmentions, and have a tiny bit of JS to show the comment count on your posts like how bret uses it for displaying the links
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tantek s/ I / he
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Loqi tantek meant to say: reads the logs to see what hemissed.
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shaners Loqi: what's an "hemissed"?
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Loqi who, me?
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shaners Loqi: yes, you.
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tantek thought he did that s/ properly but perhaps not.
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shaners hahaha
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Loqi hehe
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shaners whitespace, man. HOW DOES IT WORK!
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, with pingback.me and a bit of JS you could easily approximate the inline <ul> of name links to comments in your logs
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tantek aaronpk - sounds quite interesting.
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barnabywalters (look around you voice) what is whitespace? we just don’t know (question mark ding)
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aaronpk barnabywalters++ for the look around you reference!!!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: love that show :) I need to re-watch them all
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tantek barnabywalters example URL for info?
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tantek or do I need to deploy a rel="pingback" header to pingback.me to start collecting them?
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barnabywalters tantek: er… aaronpk or bret are the ones to ask, I don’t use pingback.me
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aaronpk that would be first. the rel=pingback and rel=webmention headers
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tantek does pingback.me receive webmention headers too?
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aaronpk yep
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tantek interesting
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aaronpk should probably add that to the pingback.me wiki page
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barnabywalters who knows how to make jquery plugins?
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barnabywalters we should make a zero-effort webmention-including jQuery plugin
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barnabywalters or just plain js
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shaners /play :crickets:
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Loqi yea
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barnabywalters people seem to like jquery though
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barnabywalters e.g. <div data-indie-comments data-url="…"></div>
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shaners barnabywalters: my team wrote a jq plugin : https://github.com/G5/jquery-picture-tag
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yes yes good idea
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aaronpk that's not even a jquery plugin, it would just be a script tag
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barnabywalters two-step indiecomments: add the pingback.me link, add this script tag and an element. boom.
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aaronpk hmmMMMmmm
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aaronpk nods in approval
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barnabywalters doesn’t want to promote web.js… but this would be a nice thing to have
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tantek perhaps a suggestion to write-up on the /webmention page?
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SRCR barnabywalters: I get 'No route found for "GET /musings/post/post-type-schema"' on your site.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /webmention (+340) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */ added TODO for indiecomments.js" (view diff)
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barnabywalters SRCR: yep, I’ve been meaning to fix those old URLs
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barnabywalters where did you find the link?
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SRCR you need to talk to tantek :) http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743973/Whistle
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barnabywalters oh wow I forgot that page linked to me
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tantek hmm - what did happen to that page/post of yours barnaby?
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tantek I can fix the link, I just need to know the new one :)
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barnabywalters tantek: I changed my URL scheme *ducks*
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+404) "itch: POSSE CRUD, just before indie wiki support (one will inform the other)" (view diff)
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barnabywalters new one is http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/post-type-schema
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tantek barnabywalters, nothing wrong with changing your URL scheme, just remember to redirect the old ones ;)
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shaners just discovered (and only read as far as the subtitle) : http://darkpatterns.org
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tantek yeah that's a good site shaners
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tantek barnaby, srcr, link fixed
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barnabywalters thanks
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shaners srsly. people get so *into* inventing vocabularies and formats out of whole cloth. i don't get it.
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shaners wrt this whole thread: https://twitter.com/veganstraightedge/status/366289605189840896
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@veganstraightedge @kevinmarks @danbri @wtfmoose @t @microformats At which point, why not just use the JSON representation of the mf2?
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tantek shaners, it's a deadly combination of ego, ignorance, and laziness (of the wrong kind)
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tantek they're more into invention than communication, so they get what their motivations wanted.
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tantek shaners - nice closing tweet. I think you just debunked the whole thing.
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shaners :D
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aaronpk just made some bookmark toolbar hotness :D time for a demo video
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shaners drops the keyboard and walks off twitter
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tantek but, but, JSONLD came out of a COMMITTEE...
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aaronpk yea i'm just gonna ignore that whole thread
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tantek the other thing, for single page websites, just use h-x-* and p-x-* classes.
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shaners SRCR barnabywalters: i gifted some of my internal notes / plans for post types and url namespaces : https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6201929
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tantek party on with your experimental single page self, and contribute your findings to the microformats wiki
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shaners s/gifted/gisted
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Loqi shaners meant to say: SRCR barnabywalters: i gisted some of my internal notes / plans for post types and url namespaces : https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6201929
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barnabywalters “and thus he coined the phrase, “gifted you a gist””
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shaners ha!
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tantek shaners - basically, all these one-off "standard" JSON APIs are dead-ends because we've figured out how to generate generic JSON from very simple HTML - which is easier for more people to publish.
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aaronpk omg now i want to make a select-to-quote button like barnaby's extension
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tantek shaners - linked to your gist from my Whistle page too
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shaners grool. i'll let you know when i post it proper to my site.
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tantek tantek.com/w/Whistle#designrelatedanalysis
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tantek happy to link to anybody else's single-letter URL design space(s) also
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shaners wanna throw this on your wiki too? https://github.com/veganstraightedge/new_base_60
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aaronpk hm I think mine is still a txt file on my computer
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tantek shaners what is it?
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Loqi it is the web after all
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shaners aaronpk: mine was too. gist it.
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shaners tantek: it's my newbase60 port of you
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shaners in ruby
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tantek 'ah ok
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shaners that i use in my url shortening
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tantek looks like it's already there: http://tantek.com/w/NewBase60#Ruby :)
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shaners oh. on that page.
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tantek of course :)
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tantek where else would it be ;)
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shaners tantek: when are you gonna host your own wiki? :P
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tantek all this outdoor sunshine is making me smile
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neuro` Good evening campers
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tantek shaners - http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Indie_Wiki
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tantek at least I'm using the URLs for now
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tantek (from my own site)
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shaners #truefaxmachine
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neuro` tantek: for my personal culture, can you post a screenshot of Falcon publishing interface please?
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tantek what was that about volcanos and fax machines I thought i saw go by?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I like your minicard UI on the inline reply contexts!
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aaronpk steals it
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barnabywalters aaronpk: please do
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danbri I was suggesting national opening hours was a better bad example, if you want one (per our lunch chat at IO, Tantek)
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neuro` Gonna steal it as well, but first, implement reply to
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aaronpk good idea making the reply context photo way smaller
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tantek neuro` "post a screenshot of Falcon publishing interface " - will do once it's implemented :)
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neuro` tantek: haha, OK. So you're doing it command line?
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danbri "tantek: shaners, it's a deadly combination of ego, ignorance, and laziness (of the wrong kind) they're more into invention than communication, so they get what their motivations wanted."
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aaronpk tantek: you should post a screenshot right now!
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shaners my "posting interface" is still `rake db:seed` :/
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danbri wonders which of those I'm tagged with
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barnabywalters neuro`: you see the “via BBEdit” next to tantek’s notes? they’re serious :)
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tantek Falcon posting UI is currently: BBEdit + scp + minimal "verify & post" web UI that does all the saving to storage, PuSH sending, POSSEing
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aaronpk when I first saw "via BBEdit" on tantek's site I assumed he was posting from his blackberry somehow :)
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neuro` I'm working on Publify interface, and we're duscissing whether or not we should split the blog posts / short statuses (with POSSE) interfaces
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neuro` barnabywalters: my posts should all be tagged "Posted from Textmate" as it implements Blogger and MT API Publify also handles
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shaners Achievement Unlocked! I've not manually POSSEd, a.u-syndication and a.u-uid'ed between sbb.me/b and http://veganstraightedge.wordpress.com
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shaners going all the way back to my first post ever: http://veganstraightedge.wordpress.com/2004/10/17/currently-reading/
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shaners performing the fiction of "Originally published at:" all the way back to 2004-10-17
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shaners :D
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+528) "document current Publishing UI per prodding question from neuro`" (view diff)
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neuro` tantek: BTW, do you know when the W3C will let you free in Paris?
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danbri shaners, thanks for http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falpha.app.net%2Fvoidfiles - is the code that generated it available?
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tantek neuro` no idea :)
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tantek neuro` - since you asked: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Publishing_UI
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neuro` tantek: hope it's not the Friday night.
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neuro` tantek: thank you.
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aaronpk danbri: you mean the microformats parser?
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shaners danbri: there are 4 implementations of mf2 parsers : js in browsers, node.js, php, and ruby. tommorris is working on a java one now.
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aaronpk that is here: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2
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danbri yeah
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aaronpk also pin13.net is me :)
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neuro` Doing a full POSSE publishing and interface may lead to some gas factory I fear.
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shaners node: http://microformat2-node.jit.su
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danbri there's another one around, humm one sec
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shaners ruby: https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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barnabywalters neuro`: gas factory?
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danbri digs around https://github.com/slightlyoff/meaningless
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shaners js: http://microformatshiv.com
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neuro` barnabywalters: litteral French translation meaning "huge bloatware that does everything at the price of an overbloated UI"
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shaners php: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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neuro` I didn't know it didn't exist in English.
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tantek danbri - re: "which of those", let me know when you've published documentation obsoleting FOAF and directing people to use vCard4 vocabulary, and proposed any extensions you need to the VCARDDAV list. I've given up on schema-org/person submitting to VCARDDAV after what Guha said at osfw3c workshop.
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danbri ah this one has microformats 1 and 2, https://github.com/slightlyoff/meaningless/blob/master/extension/meaningless.js
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barnabywalters neuro`: ah, okay :) I use my tags field as a command line — if I add #notweet, the note is not tweeted
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danbri tantek, always nice to hear from you
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@aaronpk Adapted my JS technique for reply interface to be a bookmarklet, complete with a custom icon! Here is my... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/10/2/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/366296595534331904)
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tantek danbri - everytime I see semweb/LD/etc. folks pushing/publishing foaf:xyz content it's like leaks from a very strange parallel universe.
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neuro` barnabywalters: nice one :-). I'm trying to build an interface that allows me to publish blog posts as well as short statuses published or not on Twitter
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shaners aaronpk: how do you screen record => animated gif?
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neuro` And maybe on another platform as we add them
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aaronpk shaners: I use Screeny to get the video, then gifify to turn it into a gif
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barnabywalters neuro`: oh cool. I currently use different UIs for the two tasks
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aaronpk https://github.com/jclem/gifify
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tantek danbri - given your background and expertise I'm sure you could get a lot done on theVCARDDAV list frankly. And I mean that seriously.
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danbri and there i was 1 second from ragequitting this discussion until a workday, and you go and say something nice
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barnabywalters shaners: FTR, I use quicktime to screen record then a mac app called gifbrewery to crop+resize+gifify, then imageoptim to crush the filesize
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shaners danbri: you're a bright person. come work on something that's being used. yeah?
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neuro` barnabywalters: that's also what we do http://demo.publify.co/admin/statuses/new and http://demo.publify.co/admin/content/new (admin / admin)
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barnabywalters looks into gifify
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danbri I do try to find common ground
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aaronpk barnabywalters: wait what do you use for that then? i assumed you were using it too
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barnabywalters gifbrewery
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barnabywalters it might even be a paid app off the mac app store, I can’t remember
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tantek danbri - you're probably best able to provide actual use cases for lots of things to add to vCard4
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barnabywalters hence looking into open source alternatice :)
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barnabywalters s/ice/ive
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: hence looking into open source alternative :)
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tantek as well as potential suggestions for new terms
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tantek since you've dealt with crazy bikeshedding discussions, collisions, ambiguities etc. for far too many years
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danbri when's their next revision expected?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: oh crazy. yeah gifify is just a shell script that plugs in the right imagemagick commands
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tantek danbri - they're doing things with extensions to vCard4 right now
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barnabywalters neuro`: +1 for public demo
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tantek and could really use someone of your expertise
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danbri re obsoleting foaf, there are plenty of bits in there that are nothing to do with vCard
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danbri it serves as a collection of utility terms for linked data too (primaryTopic, focus etc.)
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shaners aaronpk: in ruby there's ImageScience too! http://docs.seattlerb.org/ImageScience.html
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danbri I think it is time to look at which bits of portable contacts got traction, the schema.org person vocab, foaf, alongside vcard
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shaners Science™
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2013-08-10/reinstallation-wordpress/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress-fr (pingback)
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tantek danbri - right, it fell victim to the same "put everything in one namespace" tendency all namespaces tend toward
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tantek because no one wants to practically bother with multiple NS
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danbri there's a pile of requirements from cultural heritage orgs that are important to linked data community, but perhaps not to vcard group
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danbri "fell victim to?"
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danbri it started out as a utility vocab
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tantek same reason OGP borrowed terms and created their own one og: space to rule to the meta
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tantek danbri - yeah, the same folks that advocate multiple namespacing end up sticking stuff in one namespace for convenience, thus defeating their own methodology
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danbri having a data model makes some difference there
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tantek it has all happened before and will all happen again (at least in the multi-namespace space)
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danbri good relations was field tested in its own namespace, and improved, for years before getting merged into schema.org
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danbri http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/
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tantek danbri poco already gave input to (incorporated into) vCard4 - no need to look into poco again. it's dead.
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danbri that's interesting
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danbri got a link to obituary?
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tantek I'll leave it to you to figure out what if any value there is in the schemaorg/person properties innovative to / different from vCard4
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danbri i always liked the core, but then it had a REST API and a pile of misc opensocial bits and pieces
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tantek danbri - yeah - the out of date notice on the website
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danbri http://portablecontacts.net/ "But only in recent weeks has it begun to feel that now is the right time to rally the community and the industry to work together to make this vision real by developing an open spec for exchange of contact info that everyone can embrace."
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tantek things die on the web by going out of date, and then the domain not getting renewed, and then getting replaced by a porn spammer
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barnabywalters lol
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tantek danbri "recent weeks" (several years ago)
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barnabywalters “recent weeks” = when for undated content?
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barnabywalters tantek: ah
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danbri Expiration Date: 16-may-2014
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neuro` shaners: there's also mini_magick, which works like a charm.
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barnabywalters note also table markup based layout
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tantek danbri - links at the bottom - spec http://portablecontacts.net/draft-spec.html 2008-08-05 (5 years old!)
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tantek "draft"
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah
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tantek tell me again how your web semantics spec fails to use proper semantic markup itself?
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tantek (condescending wonka)
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danbri re http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/vcarddav/charter/ are they interested in people descriptions beyond personal address books (PABs) and directories of users within an org?
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tantek danbri - thereis ia "social network" extension to vCard4 for example
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tantek extensions are pretty wide open
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tantek plenty of potential for you there
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tantek and I trust your opinion on those matters a lot more than the authors of the current extensions
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tantek (you've been exposed to many more crowds)
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danbri looking at http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/vcarddav/charter/ ... the milestones all seem to be in the past
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tantek yeah - now it's a free for all for discussing extension specs
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danbri what have they been busy with the last year or so? standard standards schedule slippage?
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tantek I think the idea is that if any extension specs get "critical mass", then you can use those to propose an iteration to the core to add them.
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barnabywalters (say that five times fast)
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tantek anyway we've somehow gotten a bit away from #indieweb specific discussions (unless I missed something), danbri - feel free to carryon with more vCard4 etc. discussions in #microformats (or #schema if you wish)
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tantek where more general vocab stuff probably makes sense
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tantek since we're not talking about any particular indieweb use case
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danbri will feel free to revisit this in the week
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danbri I've just got home to London after a month in bosnia/croatia...
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danbri files http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vcarddav/current/msg02707.html for later (another JSON format, hurrah)
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tantek yeah -one-off JSON formats are a dead-end at this point
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danbri yes, JSON-LD is great eh?
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danbri ducks and runs
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danbri enjoy your weekends
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tantek danbri - JSON-LD is certainly one generic approach
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tantek the generic aspect is good
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tantek but it suffers from both YAGNI
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tantek and designing for developers first rather than publishers first
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tantek classic datamodel/semweb error - but we've had that discussion before
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shaners pets the machine
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danbri I was pleasantly surprised that i could make a single file that is useful both to RDF schema tools, and edible by D3.js
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shaners ok. tantek danbri: please move this thread over to #microformats.
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danbri http://danbri.org/2013/SchemaD3/examples/4063550/hack3c.html (excuse the wonky layout and [ot])
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danbri I'm gone!
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tantek shaners - cool
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danbri moves it back to twitter
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shaners danbri haha
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tantek lol silos
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tantek shaners - speaking of back to indieweb
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tantek nicely done with all your u-syndication markup!
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tantek back to 2004! goodness.
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shaners tantek: all of them
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tantek amazing
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tantek and u-uid from the copies
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tantek beautiful
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shaners tantek: yep. that's why i was asking about rel-canonical / u-canonical the other day.
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tantek updates the original post discovery algorithm accordingly per our u-uid discussion
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shaners tantek: also, this is the post about when we met: http://sbb.me/b3_E2
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shaners http://www.flickr.com/photos/ekai/1446582074/
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shaners http://www.flickr.com/photos/mollyeh11/4974503/
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+181) "/* Algorithm */ update per u-uid discussion for linking from POSSE copy to original, and u-syndication linking from original to syndicated POSSE copies" (view diff)
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tantek shaners - I remember fondly
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tantek 2005 was a good year
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shaners i thought that i wasn't in any of the pictures, but i finally found one of molly's that proved i was there!
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neuro` tantek: is your site down?
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tantek superhappydevhouse, microformats.org, barcamp - all started that year
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tantek neuro` checking
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shaners neuro`. of course not, he doesn't pay the DBA Tax™ :P
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neuro` 2005-2006 were fun yeah. Things began to be interesting again.
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tantek neuro` looks like ~7% packet loss on pings
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barnabywalters hm, I can’t reach tantek.com
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barnabywalters http://isup.me/tantek.com also reports down
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neuro` tantek: 100% down from here.
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tantek much slower than usual ping latency
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tantek something is going on
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tantek what's the command to check running processes again?
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tantek load and all that
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neuro` top ?
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tantek hmm - just loaded for me in the browser (after a brief odd 502 error)
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tantek didn't touch anything
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tantek barnabywalters, neuro` - retry?
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neuro` OK for me
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barnabywalters yep, back for me too
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barnabywalters meh. software.
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tantek I'm guessing someone else on the shared server caused it to restart :)
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tantek shaners - original post discovery algorithm updated per our u-uid u-syndication discussions
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shaners tantek ++
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tantek (aside - I did get this error on my site - and no idea whose fault it is/was:
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tantek "Error 502 - Bad Request
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tantek The server could not resolve your request for uri: http://tantek.com/ "
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tantek like just that literal text without quotes inside a <html><head></head><body>
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tantek with a <br> to break the two lines
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aaronpk bad request seems like it's a misconfigured http server
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tantek aaronpk - so maybe while the http server was restarting?
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shaners tantek: you're on a shared server? that kinda surprises me.
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aaronpk shaners: that doesn't surprise me at all, lol. follows the "db tax" logic as well :)
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi buenas noches
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tantek shaners - yeah - cheaper you know. got to see what we can get running on cheap hosting to make the indieweb more accessible
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neuro` Speaking of cheap hosting, these guys are doing it well https://www.gandi.net/hosting/simple
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tantek.com moved /osfw3c-2013 to /2013/osfw3c "sticking events in year-specific sub segments"
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neuro` Their servers are in Europe and in the US iirc
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aaronpk thx tantek for the move
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tantek thanks for the archiving of the etherpad!
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aaronpk neuro`: neat, I didn't know they also did hosting!
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tantek neuro` - want to add that to the hosting page?
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neuro` aaronpk: they've been doing that for a while
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aaronpk i guess shared hosting isn't really on my radar
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neuro` tantek: will do.
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aaronpk anybody know of a font like helvetica where the middle peak of the W doesn't reach the full X-height?
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neuro` aaronpk: I have a VM there for the PHP stuff as I don't want PHP on my main server: tt-rss and inthepoche
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aaronpk neuro`: neat
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tantek.com edited /Events (-4) "point osfw3c event to our wiki page instead of etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronpk tweaks the helvetica W
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tantek.com edited /2013/osfw3c (+320) "a little header ahead of the TOC, with see also to IRC logs on #indiewebcamp and W3C irc channel too" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /hosting (+25) "r" (view diff)
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t37.net edited /web_hosting (+203) "Adding Gandi as a reliable, cheap, easy to use hosting provider for indie Web projects." (view diff)
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tantek thanks neuro`!
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aaronpk darn I really liked the pingback.me logo
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shaners aaronpk past tense?
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aaronpk i'm renaming it to webmention.io
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neuro` Very clever logo.
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tantek aaronpk - better branding
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aaronpk pingback has too many negative connotations
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tantek we want people to remember webmention more than pingback
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aaronpk yeah
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neuro` aaronpk: good move, pingback means spam for too many people.
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aaronpk in fairness I did make it before we had webmention :)
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tantek :)
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shaners aaronpk got it
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tantek maybe Yahoo has some extra logo revisions they no longer need
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shaners BOOM!
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neuro` tantek: may work if we renamed WebMention to YebMention
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tantek or YMention
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neuro` YMention when you can be alone on the Interwebs?
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tantek Y-Mention like Y-Combinator
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tantek dot com
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neuro` An accelerator for indi web projects?
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aaronpk lol
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tantek osfw3c folks remember Evan's question about OStatus?
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tantek I think we should document a transition table
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tantek what do you think?
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aaronpk oh, good idea
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neuro` Gents, have a great day / good night. I need to disconnect, my soft won't code itself.
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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tantek.com edited /osfw3c (+249) "link to wiki page more prominently, add Twitter search and snapshot" (view diff)
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shaners tantek: do i get any indiemark points for u-uid links from wp.com to sbb.me?
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tantek shaners - yeah, you should
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tantek pushes the Ostatus page creation on the stack to checkout indiemark
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shaners what about links from YouTube to sbb.me/v without the .u-uid class?
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tantek oh dear http://ostatus.org/specification is a 404
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tantek and apparently ostatus.org became a W3C CG: http://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/
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tantek is down to 7% battery
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@__jordannn__ "@t: posted thoughts on expanding #indieweb #POSSE to full POSSE #CRUD functionality: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD (ttk.me t4RT1)he hmgkgf" (twitter.com/_/status/366313459232681984)
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tantek shaners - I think we should require either the u-uid backlinks or permashortlinks/permashortcitations for indiemark Level 1 POSSE support
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tantek so yes that would be what would get you points for that
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shaners what about on sites like twitter and youtube where we can't put any markup around the link?
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tantek shaners - hence the "or permashortlinks/permashortcitations" :)
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shaners oh. hi, i'm shane. i'm still learning to read and understand full sentences before replying. :/
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tantek shaners - it's ok, this is a very tl;dr ADHD crowd :)
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tantek but to answer your question in detail: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter
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shaners you had me at tl;dr <3
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tantek <3
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tantek yeah benwerd may be annoyed, but so many of us have u-uid and/or permashortlinks/permashortcitations working that we can make that a requirement for proper POSSE
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tantek besides he's so far ahead on other stuff, we can give make him reach for this :)
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tantek OTOH I"m thinking of making PuSH support *optional* as I don't know of any indieweb use case that relies on PuSH support
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tantek anybody?
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tantek anybody here *depending* on *consuming* PuSH notifications on their indieweb site, and if so, why / what are you doing with it?
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aaronpk hmm
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tantek julien51 may be unhappy with it, but then he's not even owning his own tweets yet so....
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tantek besides, I've long disliked that asking people to support PuSH is also implicitly asking them to support Atom XML
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tantek again, more backwards requests
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aaronpk so I was looking at this yesterday
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aaronpk the actual PuSH spec doesn't require Atom XML
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aaronpk it just talks about notifications of updated "feeds"
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aaronpk so there is no reason we couldn't use all of the PuSH spec with h-entry feeds
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shaners tantek: i don't have any plans to support PuSH
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aaronpk however most implementations of hubs have hard-coded themselves to Atom feeds
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shaners !tell tantek i don't have any plans to support PuSH
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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iamshane.com edited /Homesteading (+940) "Updated Homesteading's IndieMark score" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com moved /pingback.me to /webmention.io
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention.io (+162) "update references to webmention.io" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: shaners left you a message 12 minutes ago: i don't have any plans to support PuSH
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tantek shaners - I don't blame you. without and indieweb-to-indieweb use-case, I find a hard time asking anyone to do so.
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tantek s/without and/without an/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: shaners - I don't blame you. without an indieweb-to-indieweb use-case, I find a hard time asking anyone to do so.
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tantek this is also why I've been asking about who is working on a personal reader feature on their site?
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aaronpk i'm not actually very inclined to build a reader into my site
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aaronpk IMO i think that's best left to a separate project
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tantek aaronpk - IMO it's part of replacing any need to visit any silo UI (web, mobile app, or otherwise)
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shaners if we drop the PuSH "requirement" for IndieMark, then I'm Level 1 syndication complete.
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tantek shaners - in the process of doing so
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aaronpk even better if the reader I use is somehow aware of my posting endpoints
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aaronpk shaners: yes of course I'd rather not visit a silo UI, but I would rather use an alternate reader app for it, not my own site
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shaners tantek aaronpk: i've got "plans" to build a personal reader. as a separate project. called Feed Me, See More.
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shaners i made a static prototype 3 years ago (with static snapshots of real data from then)
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shaners http://feedmeseemore.com/activities
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shaners aaronpk: i plan for feed me and homesteading to be sister projects
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shaners subscribe web actions will get caught by FMSM. repost/reply/fave actions will go from my FMSM to my HS.
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shaners but both will be optional connections
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shaners Big Plans™. Not enough time/money/people.
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (+253) "distinguish indieweb examples (none yet), open source, silo" (view diff)
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shaners Thought: how long before someone (maybe one of us) gets funding to build a #indieweb based company?
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tantek shaners, add your "plans" here: http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader#Brainstorming
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shaners GARGH. Loqi, why does the wiki log me out so quickly?
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tantek shaners - funding presumes an indieweb based business model - pick one of these first: http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models
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shaners i plan to do HS, WP style. free / oss download / self host. pay for managed installs. + app store/garden.
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melvster tantek: would you be interested in decentralized advertizing for indieweb ... touch wood, ill have it implemented in the next year ...
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tantek ah very good, add yourself here: http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models#Application_Hosting_Services :)
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shaners it's all just vaporware still
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tantek melvsters, not me personally no: http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models#Avoiding
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tantek shaners - it's ok, business-models is for *potential* business models too
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tantek so go for it
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tantek add it there
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melvster reading
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tantek brb
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tantek anyway the point about asking about personal readers
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tantek is the question of would those presumably provide an indieweb-to-indieweb use-case for PuSH support?
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melvster tantek: you may be interested in project watershed re: business models
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melvster https://docs.google.com/document/d/18blKvUX5t-lBNCsbgnsJQsFCZi-76-I-cWcwO1_atUg/edit?usp=sharing
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melvster oops he's gone
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melvster everone seems to be talking about whatsapp these days ...
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iamshane.com edited /feed_reader (+830) "Added Feed Me, See More Brainstorming thoughts" (view diff)
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iamshane.com created /Feed_Me_See_More (+8) "Feed Me See More stub" (view diff)
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aaronpk shaners: oh cool, yea that's basically how I would imagine my feed reader working
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aaronpk separate project from p3k
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shaners maybe we should tag team it?
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aaronpk i could be up for that
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aaronpk as long as it's not rails
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aaronpk :)
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aaronpk sinatra is fine
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shaners aaronpk. error. did not compute.
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aaronpk uh sorry
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aaronpk ruby is fine if it's a sinatra app, but not rails
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shaners every sinatra app i build, i end up rebuilding parts of rails.
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aaronpk heh
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shaners anything larger than a page or two
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shaners i'll be building my thing in Rails.
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aaronpk i find myself spending too much time learning the "rails" way with no apparently benefit
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aaronpk apparent*
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shaners here's a small example of something i like in rails over sinatra:
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shaners render @note
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shaners that'll grab /notes/_note.html.erb
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shaners render @notes
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shaners does /notes/_note.html.erb for each note in @notes
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aaronpk hm, come to think of it a lot of what I don't like is in the context of edit/view and the form_for stuff
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shaners sinatra takes more to do that. nothing major. but in the aggregate, it adds up.
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shaners what do you mean?
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shaners for example?
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aaronpk i don't like form handling in rails
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aaronpk but luckily a feed reader doesn't tend to have much of that
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shaners #truefax
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aaronpk ok i will consider it
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aaronpk but I definitely would not be able to take the lead on it
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shaners that's fair
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shaners and honestly, i don't have anytime for it anytime soon
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shaners more focused on homesteading
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aaronpk yea
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aaronpk the other thing is I already know that following my twitter stream is not a good idea, it's too full of noise. so I question the value of replicating that experience
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aaronpk I get more value out of following several twitter search streams that I pipe to various IRC channels like this one
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aaronpk so I still need to figure out how I want to consume people's indie sites before I go and implement something
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aaronpk oh cool, I just added atom output to webmention.io so you can subscribe to your mentions in a feed reader
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+953) "require linkbacks from POSSE copies, either u-url u-uid or permashortlinks/citations" (view diff)
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Loqi make PuSH support optional since no indieweb nor indieweb-to-indieweb use-cases yet
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tantek shaners - IndieMark level 1 updated
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tantek pops the stack back to OStatus
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tantek aaronpk - the beauty of indieweb aggregating/reading currently is that there's so few indieweb sites to read that you can't get overwhelmed (yet) :)
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tantek and as you do feel overwhelmed, you can start to explore the questions of why and build tools / UI accordingly.
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aaronpk tantek: actually I already am overwhelmed :)
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tantek Facebook has "mute"
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aaronpk benwerd posts a lot :)
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tantek haha - yeah good point
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tantek there's been some work with showing aggregations of posts from individuals
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tantek e.g. not just one post but several clustered as one post
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tantek e.g. benwerd posted 5 updates (most recent one shown … to expand)
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tantek or benwerd posted 5 photos (thumbnails shown instead of full/normal size)
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aaronpk that makes more sense in a lot of cases
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tantek wow a google doc really? google docs are just a bad immitation of ms office on the web
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tantek too much JS
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tantek etherpad is about as much JS-based content I can take
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aaronpk lol!
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aaronpk tantek: do you currently use a feed reader?
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tantek no
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tantek I used Google Reader years ago, then fell out of the habit of checking it. didn't miss it.
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tantek.com created /OStatus (+253) "stub with summary from evanpro as noted by Kevin Marks at osfw3c" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /ostatus (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Ostatus (+21) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: wondering if you'd be interested in subscribing to the feed of mentions of your site from webmention.io
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tantek maybe?
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tantek not sure what I'd do with it for now
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tantek.com edited /OStatus (+66) "see also wikipedia" (view diff)
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aaronpk well I like to know when people mention me. would hopefully be less spammy than your @t mentions
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tantek oh right - I forgot about personal mentions being useful :)
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tantek.com edited /OStatus (+699) "draft table of OStatus tech and indieweb equivalent" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OStatus (+131) "added openid/indieauth as related" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OStatus (+7) "TOC" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - table for review: http://indiewebcamp.com/OStatus#IndieWeb_Equivalents
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aaronpk oh sweet
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tantek feel free to edit / add to
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tantek that was just off the top of my head
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aaronpk looks good
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aaronpk guess we don't have any indieweb equivalent for the reader/subscirption part of PuSH yet
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tantek right
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aaronpk because nobody has implemented it
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tantek hence my questions earlier
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tantek right
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aaronpk cool. did you see my comments on PuSH?
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tantek we'll implement for that use-case when we come across it
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aaronpk right before you disconnected
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tantek hmm
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tantek I think so
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tantek in the logs
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aaronpk yeah, just that the PuSH protocol itself doesn't dictate Atom, but afaik all implementations do
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aaronpk so we don't need to reinvent anything, just re-implement
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tantek right - we should re-use where we can
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shaners aaronpk: (catching up. was afk.) i think we're already doing the indieweb feed reading at work