#indiewebcamp 2013-08-13

2013-08-13 UTC
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aaronpk I believe it means using social networks and other social technology inside a business
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tantek is going through that page and creating stub/definition pages on the indiewebcamp wiki to try to help with understanding terms/phrases and their relation to the indieweb
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aaronpk i have not yet seen that term outside the w3c page, but the idea is not new
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tantek.com created /OpenSocial (+345) "stub with link to org, WP" (view diff)
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tantek that's a decent working definition, we can start with that
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tantek.com created /social_technology (+30) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /social_technologies (+30) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /social-business (+288) "stub with working defn from aaronpk in irc" (view diff)
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aaronpk interesting that the wikipedia page on social business has a completely different definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_business
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tantek.com created /social_specifications (+30) "r" (view diff)
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tantek wow - totally different
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benwerd Yeah, social enterprise != social business
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aaronpk 1) business doing social good, and 2) businesses using social media to interact with customers
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tantek and enterprise using social technologies internally as business infrastructure
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aaronpk IBM has a page on the w3c definition of it: http://www.ibm.com/social-business/us/en/
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aaronpk "Social business technologies help people connect, communicate and share information." http://www.ibm.com/social-business/us/en/become-a-social-business.html
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tantek well that's so general as to be useless
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aaronpk lol
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tantek.com edited /social-business (+650) "add other definitions of social business - clearly means different things to different people / contexts" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /User:Evan.status.net (+68) "stub with an h-card" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Federated_Social_Web (+887) "stub with general notion, specific assumption of 2010-era technologies, see also" (view diff)
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tantek btw - I'm just trying to put *something* semi-meaningful/accurate on these pages based on best guesses / intuition / citations
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tantek contributions/edits are strongly encouraged!
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tantek.com moved /salmon to /Salmon_Protocol "actual name used"
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tantek.com edited /Salmon_Protocol (+598) "simple dfn, what indieweb is using, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /PortableContacts (+31) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Portable_Contacts (+381) "stub with simple definition from poco home page, see also" (view diff)
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tantek ok I'm stuck again
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tantek what is a "cross-enterprise social business" ?
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Loqi a is held til the end of our block
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tantek WTFLoqi
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tantek.com created /cross-enterprise_social_business (+301) "stub with statement of unclear meaning, possibly related things" (view diff)
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aaronpk cross-enterprise?
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aaronpk where did you even find that?
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tantek http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/
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tantek I'm going through the workshop home page attempting to create indiewebcamp wiki pages for any jargon terms/phrases
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tantek and with that one, I'm done. contributions/edits welcome
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tantek ironically, not indexed by google - which shows only two results for the phrase: https://www.google.com/search?q="cross-enterprise+social+business"
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tantek ahem: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22cross-enterprise+social+business%22
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werd.io edited /cross-enterprise_social_business (+111) "A stab at an inkling" (view diff)
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tantek oh sorry - different results for the plural: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22cross-enterprise+social+businesses%22 - w3c workshop page shows up there
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tantek benwerd, nice
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benwerd ha, one of the results for that last search is a post called "why you can never have too many standards"
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tantek going to let you take a stab at http://indiewebcamp.com/enterprise and http://indiewebcamp.com/B2B then too. :)
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tantek benwerd - yeah, hah indeed
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werd.io created /enterprise (+689) "These are the voyages of an initial attempt to define Enterprise" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /enterprise (+100) "Oops" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /enterprise (+65) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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neuro` Heya
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werd.io created /B2B (+330) "Initial definition" (view diff)
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benwerd What was the compound acronym we saw last week? Something like B2B2C2B?
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aaronpk wait that wasn't a joke?
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tantek wait - I thought you made that up
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tantek you actually SAW that?
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benwerd There was one that was more than three characters long, on an actual slide
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benwerd Might have been just five characters, though
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benwerd "just"
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benwerd B2B2C, possibly
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aaronpk B2C2B
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-08/line/1375979583
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neuro` Already heard about that once
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benwerd There we go
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aaronpk http://www.slideshare.net/kestrellee/b2c2b-marketing-best-practises-14697363
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tantek.com edited /B2B (+109) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek almost SOL (spat out loud)
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tantek at that slide
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aaronpk lol!!
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benwerd shakes his head sadly, side to side
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benwerd sorry
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benwerd shakes his head sadly, S2S
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tantek now LOL
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tantek how about I2I for indieweb-to-indieweb
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aaronpk oh no
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tantek abbreviates nicely as a number even: 121
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neuro` I2S : indieweb to silos?
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aaronpk 121 makes more sense actually
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aaronpk I2S == POSSE
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aaronpk S2I == PESOS
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aaronpk S2S == PESETAS
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aaronpk I2I == winning
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 200 karma
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iamshane.com edited /IRC_People (+56) "added me to irc people" (view diff)
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tantek woot!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek.com created /I2S (+19) "r" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /IRC_People (+51) "I'm on IRC too, occasionally" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /S2I (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /S2S (+21) "r" (view diff)
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jordan.io edited /IRC_People (+43) "me too" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /PoCo (+31) "r" (view diff)
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tantek href - want to sort yourself in the list? ;)
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lion- ho it was sorted
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href err, forgot I was connected twice
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href I thought it was fifo
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jordan.io edited /IRC_People (+0) "sort" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+305) "IndieWeb Examples - using h-card / hCard instead" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+12) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ split run-on sentence" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+33) "/* See Also */ h-card" (view diff)
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benwerd Pondering IndieWeb Hangouts using Webmention to initiate the call request and a Node.js / Holla install to actually make the video / audio happen.
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benwerd Really like the idea of using authed webmentions for notifications between servers regardless.
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aaronpk whoa
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tantek benwerd - or possibly hand-off to WebRTC between two browsers, each of which is auth'd to their own indieweb site
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aaronpk holla is a webrtc library
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benwerd tantek - right, that's pretty much it
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benwerd and actually
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benwerd holla really just handles the call requests
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benwerd which I'm talking about doing with webmention
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benwerd sorry, node.js really just handles the call requests
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tantek that would be an amazing demo
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benwerd hmm hmm hmm
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aaronpk i like this idea
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tantek gjones (UK) is big on nodejs
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tantek wrote the nodejs uf2 parser
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benwerd or Phono: http://phono.com/webrtc
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benwerd back in a bit ;)
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benwerd (going to get food, not to actually build Indieweb Hangouts)
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tantek is thinking about evening eats
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tantek aaronpk - what happens if I send a webmention in-reply-to one of your posts?
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aaronpk it'll show up as a comment
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tantek wonders if aaronpk saw my rel=webmention musings from last night
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aaronpk assuming it has proper markup
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aaronpk yes, I like it and said I would update the mention-client library
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aaronpk byut have not yet done so
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tantek ok I've written a function to pull my old style "in-reply-to: http://example.com/post" inline text references into actual reply-contexts with rel=in-reply-to etc. links
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tantek e.g. posts like this one: http://tantek.com/2011/087/t6/colon-indicate-more-content-added-but-insufficient
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shaners aaronpk: do you have a script to export/archive a flickr account with all the metadatas?
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aaronpk shaners: sorta yea
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shaners anything reusable by me?
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aaronpk actually entirely yes
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Flickr-Archiver
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aaronpk it even keeps it in sync
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aaronpk here is the end result http://photos.aaron.pk/aaronparecki
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aaronpk actually I dont' think comments are downloaded right now. but all the data the account owner enters is kept, sets, tags, privacy settings, etc
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shaners i don't really care about comments
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aaronpk yea that project hasn't been updated on github in a year because it's been working just fine since then :)
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shaners booyah!
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shaners do you have a cron job running for this thing? or do you manually keep up to date?
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shaners "Update to Bootstrap 2.0 template" => "Update to Bootstrap 3.0 template" ;)
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aaronpk lol
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shaners is there a way to find out how big my library will be before i download it all?
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shaners does flickr provide that anywhere?
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aaronpk yea, cron job: 5 */2 * * * /web/Flickr-Archiver/update-sets.sh and */15 * * * * /web/Flickr-Archiver/update.sh
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aaronpk heh good question. I don't know.
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shaners no sweat
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aaronpk I have my photos stored on an external NAS drive
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aaronpk so I don't really care how big it is
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shaners do you know how many total phoots you have?
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aaronpk under 10000 i think
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aaronpk it downloads the photos at all resolutions that flickr provides though :)
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aaronpk 26GB 8500 photos
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shaners aaronpk: if I just trail behind you by a year or so, you'll have written all of the pieces I need. :P
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shaners I have 30,000 photos. :/
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shaners let's end every message with an emotion! :D
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk 30,000? that's still like under 100gb
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shaners external .5T ought to do it
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aaronpk don't forget to RAID or back that drive up :)
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aaronpk i have mine on a RAID drive that backs up every night to another
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shaners aaronpk: i'ma S3/dropbox mine for now
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shaners what is ga_id for?
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk google analytics
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shaners does that just add the ga script block to photos.aarpk.com?
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aaronpk yea
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aaronpk you can leave it out
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shaners aaronpk: ZenText currently has a malformed .gemspec. are YOU requiring it or do you know which of the gems are, by chance?
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shaners aaronpk: i just needed to update my rubygems install
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aaronpk zentext? not sure. also I just realized I haven't done bundle install on that in lik 1.5 years so who knows what versions of gems there are now
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+0) "note spec proposed 2008" (view diff)
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neuro` Hello
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Jihaisse hello
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neuro` Hi Jihaisse, musigny (and you knoe each other guys)
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musigny hie neuro` : yes we know each other with Jihaisse …and live in the same part of French alps
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neuro` musigny: I know that, but Jihaisse didn't know you were on this channel.
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neuro` So I helped connecting the dots.
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musigny thanks neuro`
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Jihaisse musigny: we know each other ?
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Jihaisse gregoire ?
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musigny Jihaisse: yes!
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Jihaisse oh ok
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Jihaisse what a strange nickname ;)
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Jihaisse musigny: everywhere I go, I found you.
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musigny Jihaisse: my historic nickname …not so strange for a burgundian who came to the web from the wine :)
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Jihaisse musigny: of course !
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Jihaisse neuro`: great article : http://t37.net/is-coding-a-blogging-engine-still-worth-the-effort-in-2013-and-other-thoughts-about-content-publishing-tools.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FredericDeVillamilcom+%28Le+Rayon+UX%29
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neuro` Jihaisse: thank you.
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Jihaisse neuro`: didn't finish to read it...
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Jihaisse neuro`: I've sent you a webmention
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Jihaisse tell me if it works
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neuro` Jihaisse: won't work, not implemented yet :(
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Jihaisse neuro`: uh, too bad ;)
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neuro` Jihaisse: won't be long to code, all the bricks are already existing, I just need to add the endpoint.
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2013-08-13/pour-la-premiere-fois-selon-un-sondage-demarketer-la-television-est-detronee/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-fr (pingback)
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Jihaisse neuro`: cool
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@SwissHealthBank MT @ehafen @mikeklymkowsky @EffyVayena Indeed interesting esp the economization of patient data by 3rd parties #ownyourdata #SwissHealthBank (twitter.com/_/status/367209408008585216)
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Jihaisse pfefferle: hello
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pfefferle hey
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Jihaisse pfefferle: in sempress, is there is a reason for showing a thumb square image of the "Image a la une" for all post types except for the post ?
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Jihaisse don't know in english how this image is called...
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pfefferle you mean the little icon at the left of a post?
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Jihaisse nope
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pfefferle hmm, i can't find it in the translation file… are you sure it is a sempress thing?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: the featured image :)
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pfefferle aaaaa ok
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Jihaisse yeah, hard to find the english name :)
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pfefferle the reason is that the other post types have less text in common… so i thought it would be good to show a smaller image… do you prefer a full version?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: for me, yes
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pfefferle ok, perhaps i find a good solution to support both… let me think about it...
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Jihaisse cool
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pfefferle thank's for the feedback btw.
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Jihaisse you'r welcome
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pfefferle is the french translation of the theme ok?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: not for all
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Jihaisse pfefferle: there are still some sentences in english
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Jihaisse pfefferle: if you want to see it in action : http://jihais.se
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pfefferle ah ok, thanks
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pfefferle do you have an example of an english part?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: http://jihais.se/2013/08/11/reponse-a-yeca-sur-le-plugin-social/#comments
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Jihaisse "2 thoughts on"
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pfefferle ah thanks
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Jihaisse I think it will be "2 commentaires sur"
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pfefferle Jihaisse: and the singular version?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: "1 commentaire sur"
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pfefferle ok thanks
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@BarnabyWalters @aral there’s been a lot of discussion recently about deletion of #indieweb content — some documented here: UR… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RWE9g/ (twitter.com/_/status/367286845115482112)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RWE9g/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RWE9g/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Delete (pingback)
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@aral RT @BarnabyWalters: @aral there’s been a lot of discussion recently about deletion of #indieweb content — some documented here: UR… http://… (twitter.com/_/status/367286967966658560)
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@kevinmarks @timbray @sil I don't think email centrality necessarily makes sense. Indieauth is another path. (twitter.com/_/status/367305416968904704)
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@sil @kevinmarks indieauth is useful for users who have their own domain name. Which is approximately none of them :-) @timbray (twitter.com/_/status/367306938414931970)
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aaronpk lol
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neuro` Hi aaronpk
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aaronpk hi there
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neuro` Good morning tantek
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tantek good morning neuro`
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@AgungP24 RT @t: Thanks @aaronpk @benwerd @ciberch @ellenfeaheny @eric_meeks @gfxman @kevinmarks @lehawes et al for #osfw3c coverage! (ttk.me t4RRD) (twitter.com/_/status/367329701255057408)
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bret yeah neuro` that was great!
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bret isn't there an indieweb article section?
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tantek anyone have any experience with Google Now?
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bret.io edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+377) "/* 2013 */ Added Frédéric's article" (view diff)
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bret no idea even what that is
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tantek don't need the utm params ;)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (-99) "don't need utm params ;)" (view diff)
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bret werps
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bret still no word from sandeep?
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tantek bret - he posted a short note after we were wondering about him
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tantek but nothing in the channel
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tantek aaronpk - this looks/sounds fascinating: http://listen.hatnote.com/
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tantek via kevinmarks
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neuro` bret: thank you. It's always hard for me to write in English.
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t37.net edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+18) "Link author back to indiewebcamp profile." (view diff)
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tantek neuro` - that is a VERY WELL WRITTEN article. kudos.
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tantek inspirational.
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tantek the English is excellent
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neuro` Thank you. Really.
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neuro` Now I need to translate it to French.
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bnvk tantek: WOW, that listen page is amazing
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tantek bnvk - yeah! would love to see an open standards version, listening to the wikis of indiewebcamp, microformats, whatwg, w3c
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bnvk yaaaaaaaah.....
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SRCR I have an IndieAuth question, what would you suggest as being properly authenticated, the HTTP 200 is good enough or should I also do something with the JSON i get back?
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benwerd (or an indieweb version)
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tantek given them each a different version
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tantek er color
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bnvk is the code open?
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tantek yes
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bnvk oh wow, scoping, now!
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aaronpk SRCR: you have to check the JSON that comes back in order to know *who* logged in
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aaronpk otherwise you just know that someone logged in but not who
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tantek benwerd - indeed, subscribe to indie h-entry updates
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SRCR aaronpk: well I also get it back in the URL, but best would be to get it from the JSON i agree thanks..
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aaronpk yea you get it back from the URL so you know which indieauth server to use to verify it
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aaronpk so that people can delegate to other indieauth servers
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aaronpk SRCR: so for example if bret.io logs in, he'll be redirected to your site with "me=bret.io" in the URL, you'd go check the bret.io home page and look for rel="indieauth" and use the server pointed to there to verify the code
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2013-08-13/pump-io-the-decentralized-social-network-thats-really-fun/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webfinger (pingback)
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tantek welcome kevinmarks!
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bnvk has anyone seen barnabywalters of late?
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SRCR aaronpk: perhapse a bumb question but what would the rel="indieauth" give me as information, I'm not getting that..
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aaronpk not everyone will be using indieauth.com, so rel="indieauth" tesll you which indieauth server they are using
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SRCR I'm still a bit puzzled, but I assume the penny will drop shortly
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SRCR :)
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aaronpk hehe ok
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aaronpk you are building something that lets people sign in with indieauth?
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SRCR Yes, I want to use indieauth to authenticate primarly myself.
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SRCR still not sure what rights I will grant others that log in.
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aaronpk you might want to check out http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases for other peoples' thoughts on that too
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neuro` SRCR: indieauth is a nice way to allow people to register on your blog to post comments
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neuro` (first use I thought of when starting to play with it)
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SRCR I'll add that to the reading list. Comments would be good In my 'design' I have comments.
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SRCR bonjour
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bret bnvk: i believe barnaby was around yesterday
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bnvk bret: hrm.... thanks :)
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bret best way to check is to ctl/command-f the logs
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bret 07:09 PST
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bnvk ah hah
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tantek aaronpk - curious if your webmention / in-reply-to verifying code allows for redirects
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aaronpk me too
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tantek e.g. if I link to http://aaron.pk/2DX instead of http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/03/28/1/shortlink-design-for-syndicating-to-twitter
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aaronpk ah I don't think that one works
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tantek but it should right?
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tantek e.g. here's a test page for you now :) http://tantek.com/2011/087/t6/colon-indicate-more-content-added-but-insufficient
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aaronpk should it work if you linked to a t.co version?
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tantek (I haven't sent you a webmention yet)
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aaronpk (e.g. if twitter were to send webmentions)
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aaronpk i think the answer is yes
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tantek imagine you changed your permalink URL structure at sometime in the future, but left redirects in place for your existing permalinks, you'd still want to receive webmention updates to them right?
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aaronpk ah good one
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aaronpk we should probably add that to the webmention page then
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tantek (why is it that as I implement this stuff that you guys all got working, I have to uncover these edge cases? ;) )
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aaronpk cause we implemented it 80% of the way :)
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aaronpk and everybody knows the last 20% is the hardest
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aaronpk it works better this way IMO
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tantek aaronpk - I'm looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/comments#Accept_a_comment
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tantek what works better this way?
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aaronpk the development process. the redirect issue occurred to me while I was building it, but I chose to gloss over it instead of overthink it in favor of getting something working
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tantek yes that's good
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tantek ok, cool. yes, happy to have you implement rapidly shortest path possible, and I'll bring up the rear with odds and ends.
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@blaine @kevinmarks @timbray @sil I'll challenge you to a race – get a layperson to make IndieAuth work, vs. sign in to Poetica. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/367387893343326208)
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aaronpk now I also need to go implement the webmention verification step (including looking for redirects) on an async queue, because checking all those redirects would take too long on the http post
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aaronpk interestingly, processing that on a queue means the only response my webmention endpoint would ever return to the POST request is a "202 Accepted". I would never have the opportunity to respond with an error.
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tantek I think I figured it out
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tantek there should only be one redirect you have to check for
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+28) "/* Protocol Summary */ verify target in webmention is valid *after* following redirects" (view diff)
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aaronpk really? i think it needs to follow to the end again
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aaronpk e.g. t.co -> aaron.pk -> aaronparecki.com
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aaronpk or aaron.pk -> aaronparecki.com/old-url-scheme -> aaronparecki.com/new-url-scheme
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tantek yes that - however, in only one step, with only one target URL
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tantek as opposed to having to check all URLs on the page
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aaronpk ah, yes, resolve the URL until no more redirects are found and use the resulting URL to check if it's valid
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tantek but then, use the original "target" when looking for it at the source
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aaronpk well you have to follow any redirects there too
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tantek for the source URL, but not when looking at the resulting markup
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aaronpk oh
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tantek that's the key
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aaronpk hah, i suppose so
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tantek it forces the webmention sender to be consistent
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aaronpk cause that's what they just said
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tantek because otherwise it's too hard
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tantek too much work to follow redirects on everything on the page - in fact, that's very inefficient
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tantek once you've retrieved the "source" you should not have to do any more retrievals
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neuro` Enjoy your day
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neuro` I'm off for the night.
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aaronpk agreed
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aaronpk it's like I tell you "Hey X just linked to Y", and Y redirects to Z. You say "really? let me check if X linked to Y" and then look for Y on the page. you don't need to look for Z
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tantek exactly
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+207) "/* Protocol Summary */ clarify what source and target are set to, and precisely where redirects must be supported" (view diff)
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aaronpk all the more reason for me to turn webmention.io into a webmention client anybody can use, heh
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tantek aaronpk - shall I try sending a webmention to you now and see at what point it fails? ;)
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aaronpk prety sure it'll say unsupported link :)
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tantek from this post: http://tantek.com/2011/087/t6/colon-indicate-more-content-added-but-insufficient
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tantek aaronpk - just tried and got 400 Bad Request
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tantek oh wait my bad
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tantek I was using the redirect destination
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tantek whoa - 202 Accepted
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aaronpk oh interesting
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aaronpk it ended up in my generic inbox, not in the specific post
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tantek sorry - wrong target
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tantek just sent another one
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tantek and got a 202 Accepted
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aaronpk ok yea I got it in the generic inbox, target is http://aaron.pk/2DX
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aaronpk so assuming I move this to be processed on a background queue, which I will do for a number of reasons, the only response I can return is "202 Accepted" even for invalid links
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tantek I think that makes sense
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tantek for protocols like webmention to scale they have to be asynchronous, which means you can't really return much state information
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aaronpk should we even bother documenting error codes to return then? why not just require the response to be "202 accepted"
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tantek I suppose the only errors we can return are for malformed webmentions, e.g. missing/invalid source param, missing/invalid target param - where invalid means invalid URL
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk that seems reasonable to validate those
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+163) "/* Brainstorming */ noted that rel=webmention is now registered" (view diff)
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aaronpk speaking of registered, can you also register rel="indieauth"?
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tantek can do - you can too! http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
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tantek feel free to copy/paste from the table row for webmention
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tantek aaronpk - given the asynchronicity needs, does that mean the Errors section of webmention.org needs to be rethought?
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aaronpk oh, I thought it went somewhere like in a w3c database or something
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aaronpk yeah I can do that
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tantek aaronpk - nope, HTML5 rel values are officially registered on the microformats wiki. The HTMLWG tried an experiment with using IETF/IANA and it was so much of a pain that the alternative of using an open wiki won out :)
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aaronpk wow
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@alphenic @jtauber My only problem with TS is I believe in the #ownyourdata idea, and want an export feature so I can migrate if it gets shut down (twitter.com/_/status/367402160209666048)
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@alphenic @jtauber More reading on #OwnYourData http://indiewebcamp.com/2013 (twitter.com/_/status/367403016501993472)
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+728) "/* Issues */ note asynchronicity and updates issues" (view diff)
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aaronpk added!
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tantek aaronpk - I agree with the asynchronicity and queuing, however, ideally we'd like webmentions to work fairly realtime - similar to silo-ux of leaving a comment and having it show-up others' view of the same post.
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aaronpk agreed, but it's not always practical or advisable to handle all that processing in the actual HTTP POST thread
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aaronpk my queuing system grabs jobs as soon as they are inserted, so to the outside world it appears instant anyway
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barnabywalters aaronpk: is forking processes a potential way of removing the need for a queue?
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barnabywalters knows nothing about how forking works
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aaronpk barnabywalters: it depends on the server environment you're in
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tantek aaronpk - totally agreed about "not always practical or advisable..."
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+101) "/* Issues */ note detail re: async from aaronpk" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: say, PHP running inside apache
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aaronpk barnabywalters: no
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barnabywalters aww
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aaronpk i know
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barnabywalters when I eventually move things async I’m probably just going to either call it via an AJAX request or just make the request on the server side and then immediately close it
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benwerd barnabywalters: I use (not for idno) a signed HTTP request method for dealing with asynchronous processing, which also has the benefit of (1) being able to execute on other servers (2) not necessarily needing a queue
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barnabywalters benwerd: that sounds good
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aaronpk benwerd: what do you mean?
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aaronpk how does http signing help with async?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I can share my setup for php queuing with you. it's pretty simple actually
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benwerd at the point where you want to launch something, a cURL request is made to the script, via actual HTTP. (You could even do this via webmention.) The signing is for authentication to prove that it's a safe call
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aaronpk but that hangs the requesting thread open right?
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benwerd no
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benwerd the requesting thread doesn't need to wait
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aaronpk what http server is this under?
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benwerd apache
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benwerd you can flush the HTTP response in PHP and continue working after everything's been sent to the browser.
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benwerd a little string and blu-tack, for sure, but it works
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aaronpk oh, well that only solves half your problems
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sure, I’d be interested in knowing how you handle async stuff
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aaronpk unless you send a connection: close header an http client will still keep the connection open. and either way you end up with the server maintaining the resources it used to handle the request.
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aaronpk barnabywalters: sure, I can do a little post about it
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benwerd I do send a connection: close header. but point taken about the resources
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aaronpk and of course handling one request at a time isn't going to ever cause a problem, but get any sort of traffic on it and it'll fill up ram fast
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benwerd right. it's not for massive scale, for which you really do need queues etc etc
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+993) "number protocol summary steps, stub Implementation Notes with some discovery and redirect details" (view diff)
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aaronpk the other thing this queue gives me is I can run the web server as the "apache" user and run the queue as the "aaron" user and I don't need to give apache write permissions to anything
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tantek aaronpk - ok I think I captured the webmention implementation details we discussed - please review: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementation_Notes
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+9) "/* Implementation Notes */ code" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: ooh yeah that’s a nice plus
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bret wonders when the first webmention spam will show up
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barnabywalters bret: we’ve already had some in this IRC channel
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bret o.0
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bret pingbacks though right?
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barnabywalters hm, not sure which it was
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aaronpk pretty sure pingbacks
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bret I have heard of ping back spam before
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tantek aaronpk - another thought for target URL verification - if URLs "typically" on your site support receiving webmentions then you could just check to see if it links to your domain or your short-domain
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aaronpk i think that gets you most of the way there, but it still doesn't catch the t.co case
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aaronpk tho i'm not sure how important that is
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tantek yeah I think we can blow-off the t.co case there for now
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aaronpk to be able to handle redirects for domains that aren't youre own
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tantek let's get app.net to send webmentions first :)
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aaronpk yeah!
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aaronpk that would be amazing
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tantek and that would provide a very visible federated advantage to app.net over Twitter
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tantek would make for a more impressive app.net demo
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tantek the way to get Twitter to change isn't to ask Twitter directly (they're too big for that)
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tantek it's to get every other player smaller than them to adopt what you want and get others to talk about how the other smaller players are doing a better job
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aaronpk +1
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tantek plus, getting smaller players on board first helps us test how everything in the ecosystems incrementally scales
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tantek e.g. let's avoid twitter spam as long as possible ;)
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bret I unfortunately can't link this: https://twitter.com/microformats/status/367090215711555584 back to my post using webmentions
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@microformats "...less time to implement #microformats2 than remove #microdata #schema-org tags from templates" - http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/
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bret is that the t.co case you were talking about"?
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tantek bret - that would be it yes
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tantek though it's also an example of http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementation_Notes verifying source linking to target
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tantek if you sent a webmention for with the target being the t.co URL - you should see that
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tantek but your webmention endpoint needs to follow the "target validity" advice in http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementation_Notes
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aaronpk in that case it's webmention.io, which does not yet
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@kevinmarks @timbray @blaine @sil that's the point of indieauth, you delegate the actual OAuth to the large attack surface groups. But not just one. (twitter.com/_/status/367411888075726849)
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aaronpk kevinmarks++ for plugging indieauth
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Loqi kevinmarks has 2 karma
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tantek aaronpk - I just verified that my post http://tantek.com/2011/087/t6/colon-indicate-more-content-added-but-insufficient has sufficient h-entry h-card and u-in-reply-to that it should be parseable as a comment.
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aaronpk excellent!
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+4) "/* Implementation Notes */ subheads for each note for easier linking" (view diff)
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tantek so I think all that's left is an update to your webmention receiving endpoint per http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#checking_target_validity and the next one.
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tantek let me know when you think that's been done and I'll try resending the webmention
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aaronpk cool. probably won't be able to get to it tonight.
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tantek aaronpk - no problem at all. took me long enough to implement in-reply-to support for my old posts :)
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tantek I went through my old posts, and the only Falcon posts where I have in-reply-to: replies to indie domains are that one to aaronpk's post, and this one http://tantek.com/2011/010/b1/owning-your-data to zeldman.com
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tantek once sending this webmention is working, then implementing better reply-to-indie-web posting flow is next on my list
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tantek so I can start properly posting replies to all of your awesome indieweb posts (e.g. eschnou's original post that's aggregating indieweb comments).
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bret woot!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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bret Was their much discussion about indieweb commenting before eschnou's thread?
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aaronpk yea, I led a discussion on it at last year's camp
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aaronpk also I set up pingback.me to help make it easier to build, before sandeep came along and simplified the whole thing by rewriting pingback as webmention :)
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barnabywalters I managed to dig out some ancient backups of my website earlier today
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barnabywalters I’m going to re-import some of my original “notes” in to the current wpc
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bret screenshot time
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barnabywalters which will push my earliest content back to 2008!
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barnabywalters bret: screenshots are fine so long as noone looks at the god-awful PHP I was writing back then
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bret I don't know php so, I would just give it a blank stare
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barnabywalters on average there are several SQL injection attacks possible per page
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bret sounds legit
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barnabywalters on a similar note, I’m assuming everyone stores their personal sites in VCS systems? I’d be interested to know how big they are
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barnabywalters e.g. mine weighs in at 500MB
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barnabywalters I probably need to start afresh and archive this one
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bret barnabywalters: do you have a project name? I was thinking you could use one of the names off of that list: Basil, chamomile, oregano
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bret ;)
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barnabywalters bret: hah :) my software’s called Taproot
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barnabywalters I would have to… *reeducate* any americans I met if I used a herb name
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bret that would be the fun
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barnabywalters usually I’m fine with american pronounciation/general language weirdness, but the herbs just kill me
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benwerd ha
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bret http://slothed.com/2013/07/23/korean-news-station-pokes-fun-at-ktvu-with-fake-american-pilot-names-after-southwest-airlines-landing-gear-failure/
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benwerd I'm stubbornly midatlantic about this. The UK gets basil right
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benwerd the US gets oregano right.
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barnabywalters benwerd: oh-REGG-an-oh just sounds so… crude
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barnabywalters none of you watched The Herbs as a child, right?
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benwerd I say or-EGG-a-no, you say or-egg-AH-no, let's call the whole thing off
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barnabywalters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Herbs
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benwerd (but agree that a silent "h" on "herbs" is an abomination)
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benwerd I did, obvs
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barnabywalters benwerd: really? awesome. I didn’t think it got much airtime in the US — or did you grow up elsewhere?
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benwerd I grew up in Oxford!
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barnabywalters that would explain it
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bret doesn't change the fact mum sounds like bum
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benwerd barnabywalters: hence American with a British accent, and weird herbal pronunciation preferences.
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barnabywalters “herbal pronounciation preferences? There’s a RDF schema for that!”
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barnabywalters or vocab or whatever
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bret XD
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bret barnabywalters: you and tommorris could work that out ;)
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bret being the resident RDF expert
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benwerd please refer to my mispronunciation-LD schema
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bret seriously guys, its really useful for our translation API backend
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barnabywalters “please refer to my herbal pronunciation preferences before engaging in any spoken communications with me”
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benwerd I'm doing a session on it at the Fatberg Protocol Stack Summit this year.
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benwerd (Aside: an entire enterprise standards conference run like a game of Mornington Crescent would be my idea of a fun thing to do.)
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@dellasm RT @wordsprof: Backstage at the trailer shoot - 1 way authors can use #Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/stevepiacente/400-pages-in-2-minutes-the-bootlicker-trailer/ #selfpubl #booktrailers #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/367426434996109312)
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bret When is pinterest going to get on this uF2 bandwagon, sheesh
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barnabywalters bret: isn’t pinterest a web.js app with minimal actual markup?
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barnabywalters they might be a good candidate to parse µf though
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bret no clue
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bret i just remember a web page that looked awfully a lot like google image search last I looked
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