#indiewebcamp 2013-08-25

2013-08-25 UTC
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp
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tantek you may have noticed all the [mention]s from Loqi re: IndieWebCamp 2013/UK - these are all pingbacks from WordPress spam blogs that have simply copied HTML from the original post http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/08/23/web-design-conferences-and-events/
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Loqi :)
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tantek unfortunately :( Loqi
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tantek all the spam posts do actually link back, hence pingback verification succeeds. however the spam blogs are adding no original content to the post, and they simply have spam links in the "furniture" markup around the posts.
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tantek some even use a plugin to help automate this: e.g. the rehavapress site from today: <!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast WordPress SEO plugin v1.4.6 - http://yoast.com/wordpress/seo/ -->
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tantek a couple of the pingbacks from the host 46.4.39.138:8082 shamelessly note in their header that they're a "
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tantek Wordpress CMS test / Just another WordPress site"
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tantek this is just a small sample of what is to come when there is an easy to install WordPress plugin for webmention / indieweb comments. this kind of spam is coming.
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tantek If we don't figure out a defense for it, it may pollute indieweb comments as badly as any other attempt at comments.
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tantek cc: aaronpk
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "move distinguishing from how to what - makes more sense there" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+55) "/* Distinguishing */ note re-use" (view diff)
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@fdevillamil @mvz @ya_f @ookook After discussing with @t last night, « note » is the most commonly used word in #indieweb world. (twitter.com/_/status/371549282656325632)
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2013-08-25/cecinestpasunstatut/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/note-fr (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://socialmedia360.us/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://nusantaradaily.com/blog/2013/08/25/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/371643011551465472)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #a… (twitter.com/_/status/371644038661046272)
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@tistre @tweet2u2 Thanks. Letting everyone voice their opinions freely is one of the points of the #IndieWeb, see http://www.strehle.de/tim/weblog/archives/2013/08/21/1641 (twitter.com/_/status/371644479222341632)
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@tweet2u2 Great for #privacy @tistre: Letting everyone voice their opinions freely is one of the points of the #IndieWeb, see http://www.strehle.de/tim/weblog/archives/2013/08/21/1641 (twitter.com/_/status/371645515437326336)
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@tweet2u2 #PJNET @tistre: Letting everyone voice their opinions freely is one of the points of the #IndieWeb, see http://www.strehle.de/tim/weblog/archives/2013/08/21/1641 (twitter.com/_/status/371645665740603394)
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@tweet2u2 RT @portenkirchner: reading “Meet the Hackers Who Want to Jailbreak the Internet” http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/indie-web/ #indiewebcamp #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371646161616392192)
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Loqi [@tweet2u2] RT @tistre: @bastianallgeier Thanks! I’ve been watching #indieweb for a while now &amp
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Loqi wanted to link to the fantastic stuff others have writt… (http://twtr.io/bsgCRqAdS8)
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@tweet2u2 RT @tistre: @tweet2u2 Thanks. Letting everyone voice their opinions freely is one of the points of the #IndieWeb, see http://www.strehle.de/tim/weblog/archives/2013/08/21/1641 (twitter.com/_/status/371662712570654721)
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neuro` Good morning tantek
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tantek good morning neuro`
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neuro` how's life treating you?
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tantek been a busy weekend. I've tried to make some incremental updates to the wiki though
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/UK/2013 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k (webmention)
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@authoress_cj RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371680001269051392)
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tantek hmm - why the home page webmentions now aaronpk?
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tantek neuro` what do you think of http://indiewebcamp.com/#Distinguishing?
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tantek (going off IRC for a bit but will watch logs from the web)
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@fdevillamil The Distinguishing part of http://indiewebcamp.com/#Distinguishing make a great summary of what IndieWeb is beyond... http://t37.net/note/30849-the-distinguishing-part-of-http-indiewebcamp-com-distinguishing-make-a-great-sum (twitter.com/_/status/371708278084231168)
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@ordineo The Distinguishing part of http://indiewebcamp.com/#Distinguishing make a... (Ergonomie, Rails et Architecture de ...) http://labs.ebuzzing.fr/info?id=404859126 (twitter.com/_/status/371719575454240769)
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tantek thanks for the feedback neuro` - appreciated!
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tantek how can we improve the summary of selfdogfood?
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neuro` tantek: if I had ben able to phrase it, I'd already have suggested something.
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neuro` I'll try to phrase it in French first
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tantek ok :)
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tantek also - I'm interested in your opinion of the whole selfdogfood page: http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood
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tantek oh look xtof has started on a French translation: http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood-fr
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neuro` Maybe we can just add a sentence saying something like "implementation over protocols", but I can't phrase it, I'm sorry.
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neuro` Reading the SelfDogFood
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tantek yes, implementation before protocols
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tantek but I think that comes from UX before protocols
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tantek that is, implementing UX before protocols
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neuro` tantek: I'd remove the "testing your code in production" part, maybe moving it to a dedicated page.
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tantek which is different than selfdogfood - which focuses on implementing UX *on your own site*
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neuro` Yes, I thought about that too while reading th UX part, but it was less implementation focused (the way I felt when I wrote http://t37.net/note/30834-being-part-of-the-elaboration-of-a-new-open-protocol-is-a-fantastic-experience-i)
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neuro` On the SelfDogFooding page, I realy like the way it explains what it is.
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (-1) "move TOC up, move meme to bottom" (view diff)
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tantek neuro` the "testing your code in production" started as humor - I moved it to the bottom :)
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neuro` BTW, on the home page, shouldn't we move What is the IndieWeb? juste under the definition of IndieWebcamp, and have the IndieWebCampUK 2013 on the bottom?
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Loqi the IndieWeb is great
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neuro` Loqi: :)
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tantek neuro` - no, it's important to have the very next event be up at the top because when people are searching for event details, that is more urgent than people just trying to find out about the indieweb
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neuro` Crap, I have a hard time turning thoughts into words, need to move to an English speaking country soon.
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tantek people trying to find out about the indieweb will have the patience to scoll past the next event details if they're not interested in the event
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neuro` Sounds legi.
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tantek and then read the description underneath.
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neuro` legit
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tantek I did shrink the IndieWebCampUK 2013 section A LOT so that the What is the IndieWeb was more quickly/easily visible/findable.
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tantek (on the home page)
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neuro` OK.
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tantek also the event description fits nicely with the photos - which gives the whole effort a much warmer and more human-centric feeling.
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neuro` Must agree it does.
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tantek like yes, there are REAL PEOPLE working on this, and you can see them smiling and happy! :)
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tantek wonders if we should capture these home page design nuances anywhere on the wiki in case the questions come up again, or people want to redesign the home page in the future (and don't know why we designed it the way it is)
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neuro` BTW, Publify now uses notes instead of statuses. I pushed it sooner today
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tantek neuro` wonderful!
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pdurbin tantek: I find it interesting that IRC is only mentioned in terms of PM (private messaging) at http://indiewebcamp.com/messaging because I think of IRC as messaging. I guess at the top it clarifies that the topic is "personal messaging." One to one messaging, I guess.
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pdurbin I guess the point is I was looking at the table of contents and scratching my head a bit thinking, "Where is IRC on this list?" And then saying, "Ohhhhh, it's under PM."
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tantek pdurbin - indeed, chatrooms/forums/boards/lists are another use-case
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pdurbin yeah. "group messaging"
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neuro` pdurbin: messaging refers to one user sending another user a message
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neuro` says the page intro.
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neuro` But I must admit it's kinda confusing there
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neuro` Because messaeging from a user to another may be on a public or private channel
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pdurbin neuro`: sure. I'm messaging you right now ;)
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aaronpk tantek: lol! I think the webmentions were sent by someone else
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tantek pdurbin - or are you having a public discussion in a forum? ;)
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tantek aaronpk - someone else sent webmentions on behalf of aaronparecki.com?!?
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aaronpk new page: /Main_Page-meta? (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-25/line/1377461880)
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aaronpk tantek: yes, I think while testing the mention-client-ruby library
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tantek aaronpk - "-meta" is so meaningless :P
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-ruby/pull/1
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aaronpk because I was sound asleep at the time the mentions were sent :)
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tantek -design?
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aaronpk better
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barnabywalters tantek: I finally implemented permalink page prev/next note controls http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RhHGc/
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barnabywalters next up, stealing your arrow key nav code
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neuro` barnabywalters: must confess I alread c/p that code for further use :)
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barnabywalters actually going to make it more generic, automatically hooking into rel=prev/next instead particular ids
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aaronpk barnabywalters: neuro`: here you can have mine: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/6336291
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neuro` aaronpk: does it use a particular framework, like JQuery?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: boo jquery ;) thanks, that’s great reference
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neuro` (thank you btw)
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aaronpk i added comments
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aaronpk if you end up making a non-jquery version I would gladly swap mine out!
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aaronpk it's just way easier to use jquery :)
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barnabywalters well mine is non-jquery but uses bean for events, so there’s not actually much difference
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neuro` Unfortunately Publify still use Protoype, we have a Jquery branch but the maintainer who works on it is busy
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neuro` Time to sleep, good night folks.
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Loqi buenas noches
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barnabywalters okay, going to try replying to a gist…
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk i can turn that into a note real quick if you want
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aaronpk hey not bad
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barnabywalters hah I posted the note containing the code before I’d deployed the actual code :)
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barnabywalters todo: make deploying as easy as posting
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aaronpk haha
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Loqi nice
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barnabywalters considering making up and down arrows scroll between notes in-page
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barnabywalters maybe comments on permalink pages
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I wouldn't override up/down, the browser already uses those to scroll the page
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barnabywalters aaronpk: true, but I’d only be doing the same thing with more meaning
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aaronpk just realized gmail also overrides up/down
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aaronpk normally uses j/k in gmail
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@scottjenson @chrismessina @ade_oshineye New to me but they look great! Similar to Camlistore? An easier way to accomplish IndieWeb's POSSE? (twitter.com/_/status/371746023846068225)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RhM_1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RhN08/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption (pingback)
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aaronparecki.com edited /projects (+61) "rename to webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /pingback (-4) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention (+6) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+4) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /rsvp (+0) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /business-models (+2) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+4) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com moved /pingback.me-fr to /webmention.io-fr
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention.io-fr (+24) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/UK (+20) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/UK (-62) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Hollywood (-71) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /pingback-fr (+10) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention-fr (+5) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /projects-fr (+4) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+2) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+2) "s/pingback.me/webmention.io" (view diff)
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@chrismessina @scottjenson @BarnabyWalters @ade_oshineye @t'a IndieWebCamp has been figuring out. (twitter.com/_/status/371762308776607744)
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@sandeepshetty Extracted the webmention client from converspace and published it as a composer package... http://www.sandeep.io/129 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371771174025310208)
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@BarnabyWalters @scottjenson @chrismessina @ade_oshineye #indiewebcamp on freenode (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RhP9U/) (twitter.com/_/status/371771339386159104)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC (+137) (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/25/1/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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@sandeepshetty Wow! 14 repos on github related to #webmention across 4 languages (PHP, Ruby, Python and JavaScript)... http://www.sandeep.io/130 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371774182486327297)
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indiewebcamp-vis hello?
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barnabywalters Greetings!
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indiewebcamp-vis hey there, this IRC thing is offending my UX sensibilties
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barnabywalters You can change your nick with /nick whatever
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ScottJenson there
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barnabywalters There is a little learning curve, but for actual discussion it beats out twitter or branch
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aaronpk IRC is interesting because there are so many different IRC clients and they all have different priorities
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aaronpk you must be using the web chat version? it's not the best client in the world but it's the easiest to jump in to a channel and start chatting
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ScottJenson I'm sure, I just tried downloading LimeChat and got hopelessly bunged up
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barnabywalters Colloquy is my GUI mac client of choice
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aaronpk LimeChat is my favorite on OSX, but it takes a couple steps to get set up. Once it's set up it's super easy
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ScottJenson I'll give that a shot, apparently you need host/channel info to set things up?
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ScottJenson let's not worry about that now, I'm just glad I'm here
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barnabywalters It’s great to have you here! Talking via twitter is tiring :)
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ScottJenson There is a huge world opening up for me around indieID and indieUserStorage
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ScottJenson oh yeah...
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ScottJenson Just discovered Camlistore
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barnabywalters I’ve played around with it a little and like what I see so far
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ScottJenson It all seems to creating a 'new base' like HTTP/HTML to create new types of apps
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC (+65) "add explicit IRC connection info" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ScottJenson: Are you headed to dConstruct again this year?
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@aaronpk @scottjenson @BarnabyWalters @chrismessina @ade_oshineye This was a Branch thread? I had no idea. Join us on IRC... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/25/1/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371773672907735041)
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ScottJenson I am not I'm afraid, a bit far to come unless you're a speaker....
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neuro` Good morning
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aaronpk good morning neuro`
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ScottJenson so is this a generic chat (which is fine btw) or do we have specific focus?
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barnabywalters ScottJenson: I
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barnabywalters I’m too tired to focus on anything right now and need to go to bed :)
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aaronpk #indiewebcamp is the chat room for the indieweb community. our wiki is http://indiewebcamp.com/ where you can read more about the stuff we're working on
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barnabywalters Goodnight all
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aaronpk barnabywalters: lol
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Loqi gute nacht!
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aaronpk goodnight
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ScottJenson fine, I was just replying to a twitter conversation that was getting too hard to have...
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aaronpk I wonder if we can get chris messina and ade_oshineye in here too
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ScottJenson Chris is making fun of IRC on twitter...
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aaronpk i'm not surprised :)
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ScottJenson So am I in fact, pretty horrible startup experience...
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neuro` I remember the time where he would hang around with us on IRC
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aaronpk yeah, IRC is in dire need of a better first-time experience
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ScottJenson even with Aaron's webpage with servier/channel info I can't get LimeChat to work at all, I'm just limping along in this web client for now
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aaronpk i'm going to make a limechat setup page on the wiki. in the mean time, these screenshots might help: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/9593029653_f06aafb359_o.png http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/9593026391_09d1fde5e5_o.png
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ScottJenson I'll do that later, right now I'd like to move towards the reason we came here, which was Messina's contention that federation is likely doomed as the UX is so bad
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aaronpk ironic, no?
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ScottJenson so far, I'd say it's Messina 2, Federation 0 right now if IRC is any indication (which clearly is a bit glib...)
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aaronpk I agree with that in terms of what has happened so far
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ScottJenson Yeah, but keep in mind AOL was a MUCH better experience than the early web
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aaronpk that's the reason the indieweb community is taking the wildly different approach to federation by focusing on UX first
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ScottJenson Walled gardens always win initially
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ScottJenson Interesting, it doesn't seem that way, is there a link explaining this approach?
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/principles "UX and design is more important than protocols"
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ScottJenson that's all good stuff but getting ANYTHING indie up and running is a massive engineering ask right now
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aaronpk i'm curious about your impressions of mine and barnabywalters' interjections into your twitter conversation, since ours were coming from our own sites first
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ScottJenson I was hoping someone would have had a service setup (that others could copy) to get this 'one click' startup for indieweb working
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aaronpk ScottJenson: yeah, that's #2 in that list: "Build tools for yourself, not for all of your friends..."
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aaronpk there are a couple of projects aiming to be just that
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ScottJenson excellent
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ScottJenson can you recap? Not sure I got your main points
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aaronpk sure
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aaronpk since we're all building things for our own sites first, we focus on the UX of our sites because they are things we use every day
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aaronpk i.e. if I use my posting interface to publish to my site, I'm going to get annoyed very fast at things that are clunky about it
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aaronpk also from the principles page, "We're much more likely to advance the state of the art by encouraging everyone to build what works for them, and then figure out how to interoperate between different coding/implementation approaches."
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ScottJenson that's fine, can't really argue with that
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aaronpk contrast that approach with a lot of the previous attempts at federation, which include problems such as http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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ScottJenson but it's pretty much taking fairly established things (like blogs) and just making them 'better'
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aaronpk ...and over-designing protocols because it is a better solution *in theory*
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ScottJenson All good
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aaronpk yeah most of the current attempts at this have revolved around blogs and microblogs
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aaronpk but I know at least a few of us have other things in the backs of our minds that we will try once we get some foundation laid
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ScottJenson Messina's point though is that Google/Facebook are doing so much more than 'just blogs', they have so many additional layers of value
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ScottJenson It's not clear to me that the IndieWeb is tackling those much better ease-of-use issues
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aaronpk that's two different points, yea?
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ScottJenson agreed, I guess I'm not as excited by the first point (build your own tools)
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ScottJenson It seems to be missing the forest from the trees
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aaronpk sure. I don't think "build your own tools" is a goal on its own, it's the way we're getting there
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ScottJenson As google/facebook are 10 steps ahead in terms of ease of use (but not proper structure, Im' still on your side on that point)
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ScottJenson I want to make it clear I'm very sympathetic to your goals
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ScottJenson I'm just saying that it's such a HUGELY complex beast and I don't see the IW community making big strides in that direction
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aaronpk ok, so as far as functionality goes, there's a few things going on
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aaronpk we're right now at the foundation level, we've got a few things figured out and working well across many implementations and sites. mainly webmention (notifying server x about an inbound link) and h-entry, the microformat markup of a "post"
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aaronpk turns out those two things can be built on to do lots of interesting things like:
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aaronpk event RSVPs (see http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp)
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aaronpk private messaging (http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging)
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ScottJenson ok, that's cool...
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aaronpk private messaging can easily be extended to private group messaging (like sharing with circles in g+)
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aaronpk private messaging can also be extended to do micro loans between small groups, something I'm personally very interested in
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ScottJenson all good stuff, I'm just making sure we don't forget the web>blog>microblog history was mostly one of convenience. If you're just working on the basic tinker toys, that's ok, but I hope there is some effort to take *whatever* you have and make it easy for others to get started
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ScottJenson ie. no CNAME hacking required
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aaronpk so yes, it appears that there are not major strides being made here, because it's all being built up incrementally
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ScottJenson and that's likely the right way to do it
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ScottJenson I'm just saying that *also* having a very clean, if limited, way to jump in and play has it's own values (it just might not be right now)
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aaronpk agreed. and http://idno.co (benwerd's project) and http://storytlr.org (eschnou's) are approaching this from the wordpress-like installer side
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aaronpk trying to build something that others might reasonably install and use, whereas I have no expectation that anybody will run my software other than me
scottjenson_ joined the channel
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scottjenson_ FINALLY! I got Colloquy working