#indiewebcamp 2013-09-17

2013-09-17 UTC
matthewlmcclure, earplugs, wardn, caseorganic, tantek and earplugs1 joined the channel
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shaners tantek did you see this gist i made about h-card > p-location? https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6586473
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tantek shaners - yeah - and aaronpk's comment too (he's right)
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shaners i read that as, my first example is good?
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tantek no, neither
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shaners :/
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tantek the geo/lat/lon stuff just confuses folks and is rarely useful in practice
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shaners well, i want to use it on my posts
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shaners aaronpk: which markup on the h-event page are you referring in your comment?
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ShaneHudson I was doing lat/long converstions to a simple grid earlier.. should be simple, really wasn't
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tantek shaners - use *what* on your posts?
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shaners i want to include lat/lon/alt data on my posts
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shaners additionally, the name of the place
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tantek sounds like an h-card
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shaners i don't want parsers to confuse that h-card as the author of the post
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tantek shaners - that's why you have to mark it up as the p-location instead of the p-author
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tantek not sure why you would suspect confusion there
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shaners so… .p-location.h-card ?
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shaners because before today's conversation there was no location on h-entry
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tantek right, like the .p-location.h-adr example (this is what aaronpk wast talking about) http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event#p-location
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tantek shaners, but before today there has always been p-author on h-entry
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shaners i know that, tantek
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tantek thus I don't know where the confusion would come from
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tantek since the /authorship algorithm only accepts an h-card inside the h-entry that's on a p-author property: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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shaners what do parsers do with h-cards (that aren't p-author) in an h-entry?
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tantek depends, if they're part of some other p-* property, they get placed accordingly
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tantek and if just nested inside, without an explicit p-* property, then they just get added to the children collection
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shaners ok
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shaners does this look ok?
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shaners https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6586473
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shaners i stripped out h-geo
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shaners and just used p-lat and p-lon on h-card
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shaners portland folks, i'll be in town for XOXO. let's hang out. :D
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pfenwick My YAPC::Asia talk is really taking an IndieWeb theme. I'm listing services which have died, and stressing the importance of owning one's data.
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pfenwick And it's hard to pitch. I'll be speaking to a mostly Japanese audience and relying upon subtitles. At the same time, the conference usually puts talks online the next day, and I can make a much more compelling talk at native English audiences.
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@PikBadaluk1 RT @poulpita: [social business] summer W3C Workshop on Social Standards, some notes from @indiewebcamp are available : http://t.co/aqV6NAPL… (twitter.com/_/status/379843765667516416)
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tantek perhaps we need "how to leave slios" transition instructions
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ShaneHudson I mostly use it for messaging, so I've thought about just using it through Skype. But then I miss events etc
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ShaneHudson Do we still need to worry about search engines if duplicating posts? I had written a lot of guest posts and on forums too that I would like to keep a backup of
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tantek ShaneHudson - that's why the POSSE copies SHOULD link back to the originals
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tantek so that search engines can infer that the copies are just copies
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tantek even without explicit rel-canonical
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tantek that should be a POSSE FAQ
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+654) "add FAQ with ShaneHudson's question" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson tantek: Ok, makes sense. Might do that this evening, once I fix the horrid webrtc bug
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tantek pfenwick - perhaps for your talk - note the sad posts on the FB Astrid page: https://www.facebook.com/weloveastrid
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tantek (and apparently as of Sept 1 it was still functioning for some users)
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@vrypan @aaronpk is there a way to get access to webmention.io (as a service) to implement something like this? http://blog.vrypan.net/2013/09/15/show-twitter-refs-in-static-blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/379945888841728001)
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Jihaisse hello
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@eschnou Coming up next: modify hotot sources to POSSE via @storytlr directly from the twitter client. Anyone attempted this already? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/379951630525149184)
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@anchnk RT @meyerweb: I really dig IndieAuth (https://indieauth.com/). Would love to see the process be more human-first when things go wrong. (twitter.com/_/status/379959891131002880)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters morning
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neuro` Good afternoon
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aaronpk pfenwick: oh man I totally forgot about rememberthemilk!
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aaronpk tantek: I don't even know what I want out of a to-do list system, probably the thing preventing me from even considering building an "indieweb" version of onw
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aaronpk catches up on logs
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aaronpk !tell shaners looks better! try pasting it in to http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ and you'll see why that works
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk wow the site-deaths page is getting pretty epic
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tantek aaronpk - re: indieweb to-dos, note: https://twitter.com/search?q="Note to self"
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aaronpk hah!
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tantek not only is there a use-case for private indieweb to-dos, but public!
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tantek people are doing it
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aaronpk well that's only half a to-do list app. the other half is knowing when you completed something
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tantek aaronpk - nah, that's the personal log app
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aaronpk you don't think checking things off of a list is an important part of a todo list app?
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tantek it's a "did it" web action from the "to do list" app to the "personal log" app.
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tantek no - it's not part of to do
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tantek it's part of logging
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tantek which we're already implementing :)
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aaronpk ok well in that case you at least need a "delete" action on the todo list
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tantek the "checking it off" is a web action that goes cross apps
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tantek aaronpk - not sure about "delete" vs. resolve won't fix ;)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk yeah see this is why I'm not going anywhere near this yet
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tantek lol
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barnabywalters I post public todos sometimes: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=todo
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aaronpk barnabywalters: do you follow up with those ever? like posting a reply with a link to code or a demo if your todo was to build something? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4QTDDt/
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barnabywalters nope, generally not
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barnabywalters I’ve started copying tantek and doing “previously: ” links
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barnabywalters which will show up as mentions
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barnabywalters but I don’t think I’ve yet used that to follow up a todo
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barnabywalters ?tagged=todo is my “I’m bored and want to make something, what do I do next” list
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aaronpk huh, i opened a facebook.com tab for something, and now i can't remember what
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barnabywalters aaronpk: RE redis inter-app communication stuff. specifically what I’m wanting to do is have one app running on my Pi reading accelerometer, ADC etc. data from I2C bus and allowing multiple other applications to read those values in real time without having to do low level interfacing
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aaronpk ah cool
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barnabywalters I only want to write I2C code once ;)
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aaronpk yeah it's perfect for that
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barnabywalters okay, cool
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aaronpk http://redis.io/commands#pubsub
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barnabywalters how about memory usage? pi is limited
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aaronpk you can give redis as much as you want, it can be a database if you want. but as a pub/sub only thing, it doesn't use much
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barnabywalters nice. thanks, I’ll give that a go
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aaronpk there are similar things like 0mq, but all the other seem too low level or too over-optimized, and redis has a lot of nice stuff
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tantek aaronpk - good suggestion for making "done" like annotations replies to original "to-do" posts
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tantek this is approaching the level of thinking worth capturing
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aaronpk uhoh
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aaronpk i don't need anothing itch
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aaronpk s/ing/er
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: i don't need another itch
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aaronpk so actually
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aaronpk i've been using a private gitlab install kind of like this already
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tantek I just think that so many to-dos end up being nice public posts when you're done that it's worth incorporating the collection step in the flow
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@aaronpk @vrypan Sure thing! I made an account for you, username http://t.co/bIQFjdhukr, so you should be able to follow... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/09/17/2/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/379985935045111808)
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aaronpk agreed
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aaronpk git(hub|lab) issues works well for this actually. each issue is a post (could easily be marked up as an h-entry), and posts can collect replies. eventually there is a "closed" post which closes the issue.
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aaronpk I've even closed some issues with photo posts
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aaronpk http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/9786160375_84cee61ca0_c.jpg
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barnabywalters perhaps similar to u-like, we could have u-resolves or u-closes
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barnabywalters then a “close” webaction on notes tagged with #todo or #issue
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barnabywalters depending on how you want to frame it
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aaronpk (and yes my house has a git repo)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: when can I read it’s blog? ;)
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aaronpk soon
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aaronpk http://caseorganic.com/wiki/A_House_that_Blog_Posts
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aaronpk this will be a thing
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barnabywalters hopefully you’ll be able to follow my gurdy in a similar fashion
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barnabywalters gurdy.waterpigs.co.uk (nonexistent at the moment)
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aaronpk my house will probably also use p3k
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barnabywalters the indieweb of things
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barnabywalters “Checked into house.aaronparecki.com”
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barnabywalters “Playing gurdy.waterpigs.co.uk at xyz venue”
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aaronpk it's hard to find a good TLD that has "launchpad.*" available
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barnabywalters for your house? interesting name
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aaronpk yeah we've called it that for years
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aaronpk even as it moves
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/09/17/1/itching-h-event-to-ical-converter linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k (webmention)
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barnabywalters h-event to ical converter would be great to see!
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aaronpk also it's so much easier posting articles now that i have a web ui
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barnabywalters IIRC the PHP sabredav vobject library eases handling of ICAL format datetimes and associated timezone mess
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aaronpk cool
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barnabywalters I used it in http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes.ics
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aaronpk lol! you have an ics feed of your notes??
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aaronpk adds it to google calendar
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barnabywalters …I… seem to, yeah. wow, where did that come from?
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barnabywalters I don’t use ical much but it’s nice to have my notes in there as extra context for other events
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aaronpk yeah I should just add that as another output filter like I do for my *.json URLs
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tantek aaronpk, barnabywalters best place to start with an h-event to iCal converter is with the existing hCalendar to iCal converter: H2VX
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tantek https://github.com/microformats/h2vx.com
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tantek since that's what gets deployed as a service on http://h2vx.com/
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tantek and our events page uses
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/events#Add_events_to_your_calendar
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tantek patches welcome :)
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tantek aaronpk - back on the geo for posts discussion - is anyone actually posting geo/lat/long today on their posts?
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=location
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aaronpk tantek: I do for my sleep posts http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2013/09/17/064900/
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tantek views source on Barnaby's location posts
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barnabywalters I think I’m only doing interesting markup on the permalink pages
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aaronpk I was on my notes until you pointed out I needed to separate locality/region/country better
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tantek barnabywalters, then e.g. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4Rw8ak/
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tantek this is odd: "name": ["Albany Villas,\n\t\t\t\t\t\tBrighton and Hove"],
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tantek ah - that's the auto-implied name
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tantek hey ozten
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ozten tantek: do you think Skype with 10 people will work?
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tantek ozten - hah. no.
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barnabywalters yeah, I should probably just mark them up as h-cards with explicit p-name
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ozten I'm thinking Hangout, which I'm a dolt to setup
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ozten Last time I ended up with people in ski masks
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tantek ozten - better chance of hangout working
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tantek whoa
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tantek where did you publicize it?
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aaronpk oh yea that happened with indiewebcamp last year.
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ozten Ya, I think I accidentally made one that was put onto the hangouts feed or something
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tantek seriously?!?
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barnabywalters yeah, we had some weirdos last year
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barnabywalters lots of groaning and shouting and creepy shirtless guys
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aaronpk figured it out better the last couple times
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ozten Glad to hear I'm not the only one
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tantek uh
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tantek presumably there's a way to create a hangout that DOESN'T have this problem?
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barnabywalters a penguin and a camera tripod IIRC
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, you create a private hangout then give out the URL to people you trust
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tantek barnabywalters - can you capture that on http://indiewebcamp.com/hangouts ?
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tantek or http://indiewebcamp.com/hangout ?
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tantek well Google calls them Hangouts so let's go plural
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tantek http://www.google.com/+/learnmore/hangouts/
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tantek Barnaby - yes this should be using an embedded h-card with explicit name rather than h-adr/h-geo
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tantek aaronpk - this makes sense to me: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2013/09/17/064900/ and is a good use-case for a p-location h-adr inside an h-entry
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aaronpk cool
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tantek ok I'm going to drop p-geo p-latitude p-longitude p-altitude from h-entry and add back just p-location (re-use from h-event)
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barnabywalters +1 for dropping excess confusing properties
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aaronpk great. i think it makes sense to match the h-event format too
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tantek so given that - should we drop p-geo p-latitude p-longitude from h-event as well, and instead suggest using a "p-location h-geo" for any such needs?
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tantek (I don't know of any use-cases that require flat geo/lat/long directly inside h-event)
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barnabywalters tantek: would dropping h-geo and just using h-adr p-lat/long be too much?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: is that basically to avoid nesting lat/lng inside the geo property?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: seeing as geo and addresses are often published together, seems silly to nest them unnecessarily
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk what happens when you want to publish lat/lng but no address?
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tantek "are often published together" is not really good enough - need actual examples
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tantek you use h-geo
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barnabywalters tantek: no, I use h-geo and h-adr on the same element
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barnabywalters just in case people are explicitly looking for h-geo
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tantek that's fine too
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barnabywalters that is one way to avoid unnecessary nesting
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aaronpk i just realized i have lat/lng on my home page, but forgot to at the p- prefix
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tantek barnabywalters who? "people are explicitly looking for h-geo"
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barnabywalters tantek: note preceding “just in case”
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tantek why bother with markup without an actual known use-case
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barnabywalters why bother even having the vocab if there isn’t an actual known use case?
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tantek not sure "just in case" is suffiicent justification to add more markup
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tantek barnabywalters - exactly!
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tantek the primary use-case for all the event / geo stuff is iCalendar output
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barnabywalters okay, so drop h-geo and move p-latitude longitude to h-adr
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tantek h-adr already includes them in flattened form :)
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tantek (by design)
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barnabywalters so why does h-geo still exist?
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tantek h-card is a superset of h-adr is a superset of h-geo
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tantek because there are pages that *only* publish lat/long
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tantek for a location
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tantek e.g. wikipedia
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tantek which people then use just to plot points on a mpa
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tantek s/mpa/map
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Loqi tantek meant to say: which people then use just to plot points on a map
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barnabywalters hm, that means if I want to, for e.g. plot all coordinates on a webpage on a map, I have to look for h-geo, h-adr and h-card
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tantek yes, convenience for the publisher trumps convenience for potential/theoretical applications
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barnabywalters it would be a good idea to clarify this for consumers on the relevant vocab pages
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barnabywalters “if you’re looking for this, you should also try looking for these”
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+110) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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aaronpk wow, almost 50 new people used indieauth.com yesterday
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habitmelon aaronpk: awesome!
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: wow, that's great!
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tantek congrats aaronpk
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barnabywalters aaronpk: any thoughts on how to verify indieweb location data?
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tantek aaronpk, re: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/09/17/1/itching-h-event-to-ical-converter - here is the file to look at to patch h2vx: https://github.com/microformats/h2vx.com/blob/master/ics/xhtml2vcal.xsl
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barnabywalters i.e, you said you were at X, Y, but how can we verify that
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ShaneHudson You mark a little X on the floor.. then we send drones to the location and use computer vision to find the X
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aaronpk barnabywalters: verify?
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aaronpk yeah drones
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aaronpk lol
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barnabywalters lol
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aaronpk barnabywalters: no really, what do you mean by verify?
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aaronpk tantek: holy cow is that an xslt file that outputs an ical file?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: indeed, briansuda’s work I believe :)
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aaronpk i haven't seen xslt in a long long time
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tantek aaronpk - that is the guts behind http://h2vx.com/ics/
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ShaneHudson I always avoided it like the plague
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aaronpk it seemed like a good idea at the time
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barnabywalters RE verify: so, foursquare allows businesses to give out freebies to regular check-inners
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barnabywalters because they trust foursquare not to lie about location
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aaronpk oh
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barnabywalters so for the moment POSSE to trusted silos is fine
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barnabywalters but is it possible to verify indie location data without using drones?
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aaronpk technically foursquare checkins are easily forged, there isn't really much verificatino you can do
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aaronpk i think this verification problem applies to other post types besides just location, and we should probably treat it as a separate problem
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barnabywalters yeah, it’s only a matter of time until someone starts identity spamming
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barnabywalters in fact, it’s already happened accidentally
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aaronpk hah! true
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barnabywalters idno thought my comments were from Jovian Salak because his h-card is on all of my pages
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barnabywalters back when it wasn’t using authorship markup
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aaronpk oh, and also kevinmarks was POSSE'ing to xtof's account during indiewebcamp uk!
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ShaneHudson that was funny
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Loqi shaners: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 2 minutes ago: looks better! try pasting it in to http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ and you'll see why that works
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waterpigs.co.uk created /hangouts (+703) "Created page with "Hangouts are [[Google+]]’s videoconferencing tool. Creating public hangouts has resulted in hangout [[spam]] in the past — typically this takes the form of random people pop..."" (view diff)
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shaners http://gitlab.org : Maybe for #indieweb code hosting?
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tantek shaners - maybe add to http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting ?
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@nahosting With #myopenid closing early next year you can swap your #domain #openid to another provider like #IndieAuth - http://peat.org/2013/09/15/replacing-myopenid/ (twitter.com/_/status/380040921192337408)
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shaners aaronpk: indieauth rescan isn't finding any rel-me links on my site. is it timing out? my site IS being slow right now.
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tantek what's the free/indie version of github you can install on your own server? gitorius?
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tantek.com created /github (+20) "r" (view diff)
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shaners tantek: gitlab is also one. that's why i mentioned it.
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tantek do you run gitlab on your own site?
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shaners no. just learned about it today.
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shaners gitosis is another https://github.com/tv42/gitosis
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shaners https://gitorious.org
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shaners i know people who run both gitosis and gitourious
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tantek.com edited /github (+0) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+164) "add Self-hosted alternatives" (view diff)
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tantek shaners - would be great if you could add to: http://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub#Self-hosted_alternatives
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shaners am trying to, but indieauth.com is timing out on reading my site :/
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tantek oh drat :(
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shaners looks like you already added them
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tantek shaners I added the raw URLs, but figured you could provide context / prose for each
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shaners i will, sometime
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aaronpk shaners: I use gitlab
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aaronpk I think I've been running it for over a year now
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aaronpk and shaners your site is ridiculously slow for me
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aaronpk although it could be a backbone routing problem http://www.internethealthreport.com/
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shaners I made a few changes a few days ago. and fucked something up. i need to do some spelunking.
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aaronpk also, https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/36
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shaners how do i find out what ip block my site is coming from?
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shaners heroku / aws
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aaronpk eh, I think it depends on what is trying to connect to it
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shaners oh
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vrypan Hi aaronpk. Thanks for the webmention.io account but it looks like I need a token? Or some other way to auth? I read the docs, but couldn't find any reference to authentication.
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aaronpk vrypan: ah yea you need a token to get stuff out of the API, or I can make it public so no token is needed
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aaronpk you'd need to put the token in JS so it doesn't really protect anything
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aaronpk vrypan: I made it public so you can just use the sample code on webmention.io now
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vrypan Great. Public is ok. Thanks!
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vrypan Hm.. curl -i 'http://webmention.io/api/links?domain=vrypan.net' still returns an error. "Either an access token or a target URI is required"
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aaronpk your site is blog.vrypan.net i believe
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vrypan curl -i 'http://webmention.io/api/links?domain=blog.vrypan.net' returns the same error.
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aaronpk ah, yeah apparently the access control is set so you can only retrieve mentions of a specific URL with no token
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vrypan BTW, I don't want to use the JS. I want to query web mention.io every say 30 minutes for the whole blog.vrypan.net domain and "distribute" any mentions to the posts.
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aaronpk ah ok
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aaronpk but your site is static html right?
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vrypan I want to make the mentions part of the static html of my blog.
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aaronpk cool
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vrypan This is how I do it with twitter now.
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aaronpk sent you a URL with the token in it
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vrypan So, I only have to make one call for the whole domain.
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vrypan Great! I'll work on it the next days and let you know how it went. Thank you!
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aaronpk the API supports paging too, so you can do limit=10&offset=2 for example
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aaronpk er sorry, page=1&perPage=10
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tantek shaners - updated h-entry
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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tantek cc: aaronpk, barnabywalters - do those updates help your use-cases of posts with locations?
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aaronpk i believe so
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aaronpk i may have to try adding that markup before I can give a good answer
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tantek moves to updating h-event
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tantek aaronpk - h-event also updated
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tantek off to dinner
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shaners !tell tantek thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+161) "/* Sites I bookmark */" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: shaners left you a message 39 minutes ago: thanks!
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shanehudson.net edited /web_hosting (+164) "Added Krystal.co.uk" (view diff)
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