#indiewebcamp 2013-10-14

2013-10-14 UTC
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tantek.com edited /YouTube (+45) "/* Permalink UI */ add live permalink" (view diff)
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tantek the live comments thing is amazing
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tantek I'm still blown away
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tantek I gotta get my semi-auto webmention sending coded
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tantek so I don't have to do a curl next time a demo posting a comment
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acegiak tantek: you can see from my reply to the auto comment post that I need to organise my replies so that the context isn't sent as part of the webmention comment
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acegiak cause at the moment there's no distinguishing features to say "this is the context, and this bit is my reply"
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tantek the reply-context should be *inside* the h-entry but *outside* the h-entry
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tantek er
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tantek the reply-context should be *inside* the h-entry but *outside* the e-content
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acegiak ah! I didn't realise the e-content tag bit
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acegiak kk
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tantek see http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup
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tantek and note also that the reply-context should be marked up as an h-cite
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tantek which has its own p-content!
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acegiak cool cool
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tantek aaronpk - YouTube permalink UI screenshot and itemized documentation: http://indiewebcamp.com/YouTube#Permalink_UI
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acegiak tantek: at the moment reblogging with whisperfollow just presents a textbox with post content as html with the existing content etc there as template
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aaronpk acegiak: sweet! looks lik my server actually got two webmentions
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aaronpk what wordpress plugin is this?
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aaronpk it must be accidentally sending two, maybe on both publish and updates?
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aaronpk either way, my fault for rendering it twice in the stream, will fix that
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acegiak aaronpk: Pfefferle has a webmentions plugin I'm using
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acegiak it might also be because wordpress sends pingbacks by default
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acegiak which might be the source of duplication? not sure
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aaronpk ooh
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acegiak should be able to check for duplicate permalinks though?
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aaronpk yeah
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acegiak still trying to get my aggregating plugin to play nice displaying the context with pfefferle's sempress theme
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acegiak so the comment still has the context in the body
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aaronpk ah I knew there would be a reason to send more than just an HTML blob through websockets.
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aaronpk has to refactor a little, but this will mean the realtime streaming can also eventually support updates and deletes
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acegiak cool
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aaronpk tantek: I need you to convince me not to use a database to store webmentions I've received ;)
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aaronpk i'm running into a few problems with the flat-file approach to this
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acegiak do we have markup suggestions for syndicating content?
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acegiak like if you reblog something on tumblr without adding comment
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aaronpk in general, h-cite is the recommendation for content that is not yours
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acegiak cool just checking
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aaronpk acegiak: ok de-duplication should be done!
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acegiak aaronpk: I'm just about finished fixing my context markup so I'll try another test reply in a minute
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aaronpk nice
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+280) "drop property prefixes" (view diff)
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acegiak aaronpk: about to post another response to that test post
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aaronpk watches
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acegiak frowns
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aaronpk ?
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acegiak http://acegiak.machinespirit.net/2013/10/14/aaron-parecki-notes-test-post-for-testing-real-time-indieweb-comments-2/
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acegiak oh maybe because I shifted the location of the link to you the plugin isn't picking up to process the webmention
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aaronpk you can also check your markup here http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Facegiak.machinespirit.net%2F2013%2F10%2F14%2Faaron-parecki-notes-test-post-for-testing-real-time-indieweb-comments-2%2F
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tantek scrolls back
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aaronpk hm no I don't think I've received a webmention at all now
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acegiak aaronpk: I think in my moving the context to a separate h-cite tag it meant that the plugin isn't finding the url to know it needs to send a webmention
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aaronpk oh I see
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aaronpk on your side
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aaronpk well you can always send manually via curl ;)
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aaronpk or that form
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acegiak yeah, hmm
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tantek aaronpk - re: " the realtime streaming can also eventually support updates and deletes" - yes!
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aaronpk I should probably update the source code in my post, yea?
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Loqi yea
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+1035) "add example of posting weight" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+216) "add authentication section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+116) "add Ben Werdmuller's event page for Personal Clouds Community Gathering 5" (view diff)
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@t #pcloud #indieweb talk videos posted by @josephboyle! @benwerd 8m http://www.youtube.com/ @t 5m http://www.youtube.com/ (ttk.me t4SX4) (twitter.com/_/status/389576546677448704)
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josephboyle Thx @t
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tantek thank *you* josephboyle - the videos came out great
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tantek !tell benwerd - I think I found a bug in your checking for in-reply-to links in your webmention consuming code - appears you're only looking for them inside e-content whereas you should be looking just for a p-in-reply inside the h-entry. E.g. http://tantek.com/2013/286/t4/pcloud-indieweb-videos-posted
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell benwerd when I curled the webmention manually to your event link (attempting to leave that as a comment), I got: {"error":"no_link_found","error_text":"The source URI does not contain a link to the target URI."}
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek wonders if benwerd monitors the logs
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+304) "add Personal Cloud Community Gathering 5 - Sept 2013 indieweb videos" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd curl command I was using: curl -i -d "source=http://tantek.com/2013/286/t4/pcloud-indieweb-videos-posted&target=http://werd.io/event/52437f31bed7de860cb7d768/personal-clouds-community-gathering-5" http://werd.io/webmention/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com moved /User:Joseph_Boyle to /User:Josephboyle.net "Move JosephBoyle's 2011-era user page to his 2012+ user account page (which was previously uncreated)"
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josephboyle ditto
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@icco RT @t: #pcloud #indieweb talk videos posted by @josephboyle! @benwerd 8m http://www.youtube.com/ @t 5m http://www.youtube.com/ (ttk.me t4SX4) (twitter.com/_/status/389588586556702720)
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tantek.com edited /User:Josephboyle.net (+170) "Add Twitter, simple minimal h-card" (view diff)
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tantek !tell caseorganic - in your presentation, rather than …2012, why do we need it, principles, what can you do - a better order: …2012, principles (how indieweb is different from prev efforts), why do we need it, what have we built, what can you do
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell caseorganic - the "future of …" slides don't seem to fit well anywhere - I'd drop them. Better to close/conclude with a solid "what can you do" call to action series, including joining the community/IRC and participating in an indiewebcamp in person.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek and that's the end of my review of the slides - going to wait for a refresh/iteration of them to re-review
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 1 minute ago: - in your presentation, rather than …2012, why do we need it, principles, what can you do - a better order: …2012, principles (how indieweb is different from prev efforts), why do we need it, what have we built, what can you do
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 2 hours ago: - the "future of …" slides don't seem to fit well anywhere - I'd drop them. Better to close/conclude with a solid "what can you do" call to action series, including joining the community/IRC and participating in an indiewebcamp in person.
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tantek welcome back caseorganic
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caseorganic tantek: thank you!
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tantek is back to writing a previously queued blog post.
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caseorganic reading through notes
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tantek (not on 2003 ;) )
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tantek but on creative daily routine stuff
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tantek expanding on: http://tantek.com/2013/281/t1/daily-routines-creatives-edited-morning-walks
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caseorganic tantek: i like how precise that post is
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tantek caseorganic, that's how I try to train my brain to think. simply, precisely, tl;dr.
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tantek can always expand on thoughts later. better to be brief at first.
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tantek longer than 140 characters, but shorter than walls of text of so many blog posts, articles, papers, and of course, emails (yuck).
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tantek writing effectively for today's readers has changed greatly and needs respecifying.
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Jihaisse Hello there
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caseorganic tantek: ok, i merged in a lot of the feedback. won't be until tomorrow before i can have an updated draft to you
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tantek no problem. I just finished a draft of my blog post expansion on daily routines for creatives. :)
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tantek needs a way to share drafts without having them auto-syndicate etc.
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@comzeradd RT @t: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389655978716565504)
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tantek good night!
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Loqi gute nacht!
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tantek danke Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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neuro` Good morning #indiewebcamp
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@jontangerine Heathrow HSBC ad says ‘in the future your data will be your DNA’. What? And, OK, but by the power of #indieweb not with HSBC ferchrissakes. (twitter.com/_/status/389680332838277120)
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@sqlovesround RT @jontangerine: Heathrow HSBC ad says ‘in the future your data will be your DNA’. What? And, OK, but by the power of #indieweb not with H… (twitter.com/_/status/389689037889736704)
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@TrevorJAdams RT @jontangerine: Heathrow HSBC ad says ‘in the future your data will be your DNA’. What? And, OK, but by the power of #indieweb not with H… (twitter.com/_/status/389690727355416576)
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Jihaisse do you know http://sebsauvage.net/wiki/doku.php?id=php:shaarli ?
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Jihaisse seems cool
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@fschaap @jillyrocket @paulvanbuuren Maar dit is beter: http://indiewebcamp.com/ 1) op eigen site publiceren, 2) syndicatie naar andere (social) media (twitter.com/_/status/389734470372167680)
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tantek !tell caseorganic here's that aforementioned blog post: http://tantek.com/2013/287/b1/daily-routines-creatives-edited
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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nateabele tantek: Mornin', sir. :-)
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@domenicoperri Realtime IndieWeb Comments http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389750063267737600)
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 57 minutes ago: here's that aforementioned blog post: http://tantek.com/2013/287/b1/daily-routines-creatives-edited
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neuro` A new open source blogging platform (we've been discussing that one here a while ago) is out http://blog.ghost.org/public-launch/
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barnabywalters neuro`: thanks for the link — good to see ghost happened
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barnabywalters bitnami looks interesting, too: http://bitnami.com/stack/ghost
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ShaneHudson Ghost is prety awesome :) I'm tempted to steal the editor for my own cms though.. lol
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barnabywalters do they have mf2 in their default theme?
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neuro` ShaneHudson: that's exactly what I'm doing
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ShaneHudson neuro`: Ah nice, how does your process work? Save as files? Or directly into your system?
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ShaneHudson Mine is PHP so I'm thinking about running ghost locally and saving that way.
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barnabywalters sends ghost/casper a PR with microformats2 in: https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/pull/29
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tantek nateabele - good morning!
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@fluxkraft RT @aral: Reading: The Future of Quantified Self Devices http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices by @aaronpk #ownyourdata #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/389771571583148032)
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tantek nicely done barnabywalters
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tantek hey bret, looks like your talk summary is still confused with aaronpk's in the socialweb workshop report - did you email Harry? http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/report
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+455) "add stub response section" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: RE micropub form prefixes, they might actually be useful
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aaronpk oh?
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barnabywalters e.g. if someone builds a UI which only allows plaintext authoring, they could send it as p-content
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barnabywalters but if another UI allowed HTML editing, it could be sent as e-content
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aaronpk ah good point!
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barnabywalters otherwise we have to standardise one or the other, which is a point of contention ;)
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aaronpk I suppose it might also be useful to indicate date fields as dt- for non-standard field names
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barnabywalters ooh, hadn’t realised you’d started publishing weight metrics too
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barnabywalters very cool
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barnabywalters from a withings scale?
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aaronpk yep!
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barnabywalters maybe those metrics posts could benefit from a “via” attribute
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aaronpk for what purpose?
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barnabywalters 1) allows people to see what devices you’re using, 2) for informed sensor redundancy
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aaronpk I do miss the "via" on twitter
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aaronpk what do you mean by 2?
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barnabywalters if an analysis app can see you’ve got two different step counts from different devices, it can decide whether to average or pick one or whatever
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aaronpk heh interesting
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barnabywalters consistency between devices could be measured too
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aaronpk I suppose I could make URLs like /metrics/type/weight and /metrics/device/withings-scale then
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barnabywalters thoughts for the nesting: dot syntax?
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barnabywalters h-entry.p-author.p-name?
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barnabywalters PuSH 0.4 uses dot notation, e.g. hub.callback
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aaronpk oh good point!
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aaronpk that could expand out nicely, and could even be handled automatically by a micropub parser in any language
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aaronpk want to add that to the section on the wiki page?
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barnabywalters will do
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aaronpk sweet
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barnabywalters the other interesting point is multiple values at the same level
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barnabywalters using comma separation is fragile
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barnabywalters but, human-enterable
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aaronpk yea, I like it for tags but not much else
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aaronpk for the others I was thinking form-encoded array syntax
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barnabywalters whereas using multiple param values (sometimes with trailing [] for some reason) is fairly well supported
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aaronpk always with trailing [] afaik
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aaronpk I believe without that only the last value is read
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barnabywalters I’d be surprised if that is actually part of a standard — I thought it was a PHP thing
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barnabywalters e.g. django will give you the last value by default but you can request all values as an array
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aaronpk it's somewhere in here I think http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1866
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aaronpk 8.2
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@kramerc Just implemented IndieAuth on my website and it makes a great myOpenID replacement. http://peat.org/2013/09/15/replacing-myopenid/ (twitter.com/_/status/389790984659169280)
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aaronpk oh funny, "HTTP server implementors, and in particular, CGI implementors are encouraged to support the use of `;' in place of `&' to save users the trouble of escaping `&' characters this way."
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aaronpk funny that never took off
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barnabywalters oh, interesting
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aaronpk unfortunately I don't see any reference to submitting multiple values with the same key
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aaronpk which is probably why different environments made different decisions
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barnabywalters so, research time. PHP uses nasty trailing-[] notation, as do Github — implying rails does too?
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barnabywalters django supports bare duplicates, e.g. ?foo=1&foo=2 => foo: [1, 2]
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tommorris barnabywalters: Bitbucket uses duplicates for issues
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tommorris e.g. ?status=new&status=open&component=design&component=whee
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barnabywalters tommorris: oh cool
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aaronpk yes I believe rails also uses []
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aaronpk funny, I never realized that was such a debate
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barnabywalters go net/url maps strings to lists of strings: http://golang.org/pkg/net/url/#Values
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barnabywalters Values.Get(paramname) returns the *first* value, interestingly — most other implementations seem to get the last
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aaronpk seems like if both PHP and Rails (and presumably Ruby's Sinatra) all use [] then we should just go with that, otherwise people are going to have to write custom post request handling
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barnabywalters sadly, looks like that’s the case :(
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aaronpk does that also imply we should use [] notation for nested properties, since that will most likely be handled automatically by server-side frameworks too?
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aaronpk e.g. h-entry[p-author][p-name]=Aaron+Parecki
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barnabywalters yuk that’s ugly. is that sort of nesting also supported by both PHP and rails?
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aaronpk it is in PHP
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aaronpk expands out to a nice array in $_POST
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tommorris incidentally, if I've been a bit slack on IndieWeb front, it's because I've been doing crazy data-merging logic on OpenStreetMap.
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barnabywalters if it’s only supported in PHP, probably not a good plan to optimise for PHP’s questionable design decisions at everyone else’s expense
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/0dd73adbfdc814a63b82
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barnabywalters tommorris: sounds good
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aaronpk works great in Ruby (sinatra) too
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aaronpk turns into {"h-entry"=>{"p-author"=>{"p-name"=>"Aaron Parecki", "u-url"=>"http://aaronparecki.com"}}}
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aaronpk I don't have a python environment set up to test
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barnabywalters tests
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barnabywalters django doesn’t support it, returning {
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barnabywalters "h-entry[p-author][p-name]": "Aaron"
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barnabywalters }
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aaronpk interesting
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caseorganic !tell tantek nice post http://tantek.com/2013/287/b1/daily-routines-creatives-edited
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk barnabywalters: my iphone app now sends pushup counts to my server using a prototype micropub API! http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2013/10/14/102252/
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barnabywalters wow! amazing work!
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barnabywalters is this a nose-activated pushup app?
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aaronpk yes :)
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barnabywalters in theory it shouldn’t be much work to make that as a web UI ;) but an excellent test case for micropub nonetheless
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barnabywalters how are you authenticating the app with your server?
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aaronpk i'm not yet
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aaronpk didn't want to spend hours writing authenticatino code in the ios app
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aaronpk thinking about something super simple instead
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barnabywalters fair enough. have you seen githubs personal key auth thingy?
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barnabywalters using HTTP basic auth but with disposable keys
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aaronpk do the indieauth dance to get a session cookie from my server, then send a URL to my phone that contains the cookie which when I open the URL on my phone saves the cookie in the app's local storage
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aaronpk that way I don't need a login screen in the app
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barnabywalters how do you send the URL to the phone?
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aaronpk i would send it in an email or SMS to myself
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aaronpk low tech :)
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aaronpk although if I logged in to my site on my phone it would just be clicking a link to get back to the app
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aaronpk pretty much just like doing OAuth from a native app to a website
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barnabywalters anyone here have experience building web apps which work offline?
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barnabywalters wants to make a HTML+JS version of aaronpk’s pushup app which works with no connection
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tantek barnabywalters - start with app manifest
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 1 hour, 22 minutes ago: nice post http://tantek.com/2013/287/b1/daily-routines-creatives-edited
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tantek thanks caseorganic!
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks, got it. almost there now
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tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Apps/Developing/Manifest
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barnabywalters offline apps are so much easier when you don’t have loads of js dependencies
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barnabywalters tantek: OWA (JSON) manifests only work on FF at the moment, right?
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barnabywalters and FF OS
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tantek checks the docs
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barnabywalters I don’t have a FFOS phone yet
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barnabywalters so pushup counting has to be done on ipad
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tantek hmm - I think it's also supported in FF/Android
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tantek not sure about Chrome
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tantek offline in iOS browsers is a major pain :(
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barnabywalters I’ll write a nasty old appcache file for the moment
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tantek ewwwww
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tantek I wonder if there's some way to generate old appcache files from an app manifest
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barnabywalters was just wondering that
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barnabywalters more than likely
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/pushups works
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barnabywalters just posted http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SYJit/ from it
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barnabywalters touch devices only at the moment
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barnabywalters the URL field is for a URL API endpoint — when Go is pressed, it gets navigated to with ?text=Did <span class="p-count">x</span> pushups
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barnabywalters URL is remembered using localstorage
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tobilehman.com edited /OpenID (+42) "/* Consuming Sites */ add hootsuite" (view diff)
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bret i had to remove offline support because iOS woulf refuse to refresh on site updates once it had an offline version