#indiewebcamp 2013-10-17
2013-10-17 UTC
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# 
aaronpk not sure how that happened... the php parser seems to handle it pretty well http://pin13.net/85C
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# 
@devseo How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. - http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way (twitter.com/_/status/390696933930831872)
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# aaronpk just added streaming API to webmention.io like I have on my blog :) http://webmention.io/#streaming-api
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@jihaisse @fdevillamil tu va implémenter les #webmention ? ou pas du tout ? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/390737667891032065)
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# 
Jihaisse For those who are in EU : http://www.laquadrature.net/en/the-european-parliament-must-protect-our-right-to-privacy
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@ndebock @clemnt sur le web if faut être marketmaker et non marketplace car les marketplaces seront remplacées par l'indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/390810789285621760)
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barnabywalters acegiak: RE comment parsing: woah yeah that is way off!
# barnabywalters looks like it’s a result of my parser converting the hentry classname on the article element into a mf2 h-entry classname even though it’s nested inside a h-entry
# barnabywalters so it looks like an h-entry nested inside another, and the outer one’s name property is the textContent of the whole element!
# barnabywalters I need to make the classic microformat conversion support much stricter — if *any* mf2 classnames are found in a document, don’t convert *any* classic mf classnames
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# barnabywalters tantek: such markup errors are common enough to cause this problem frequently enough that I want to change the behaviour
# barnabywalters it’s happened at least three times now
# barnabywalters tantek: I think the approach you’ve advocated in talks before may be causing some confusion
# barnabywalters IIRC you said “use a classic microformat classname on the <body>, then use mf2 for everything else”
# barnabywalters yep, that’d be a useful thing to have
# barnabywalters tantek: yeah, I’m aware of that, but I’ve seen several cases now of people putting just a classic mf classname on the body, and using mf2 elsewhere
# barnabywalters so we need to clarify how to use mf and mf2 at the same time
# barnabywalters seeing as it causes regular issues
# barnabywalters tantek: nope, I should be able to find them though
# barnabywalters unless they’ve been fixed
# barnabywalters I think that one got fixed
# barnabywalters this is another which taproot parsed weirdly, I think it was for the same reason: http://notizblog.org/2013/06/18/the-rise-of-the-indieweb/
# barnabywalters yep, and I think the acegiak’s problem comment might have been caused by an outdated version of the same plugin pfefferle is using
# barnabywalters either that or mixture of classic mf in-theme and mf2 being added by the plugin
# barnabywalters tantek: I’ve seen several cases where ignoring classic mf classnames if any mf2 are found would benefit, none where parsing would suffer
# barnabywalters tantek: they did when the problems were caused, they’ve just been fixed since
# barnabywalters yeah, looking at it more closely it seems like a clash between existing markup in themes and injected markup with a plugin
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# 
@kevinmarks “And then I made a resolution: I would give myself time, every day, to build my own things again.” - @benwerd http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way (twitter.com/_/status/390884589310201856)
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# 
tantek barnabywalters - could you add an issue to the top of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues re: sites sometimes getting uf+uf2 combined markup wrong?
# barnabywalters indeed — doing
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# wyomingplease hi folks, earlier this morning I wrote the first blog post on my new blog, documenting my personal cloud stack. You can check it out here: http://petar.petrovic.io/2013/10/17/how-i-built-my-own-personal-cloud/
# wyomingplease I wondered that it may be a good candidate for addition to the Posts about Indie Web page at indiewebcamp.com
# wyomingplease aaronpk: thanks, this is just the first phase
# aaronpk you should add some h-entry markup to the post! http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
# wyomingplease aaronpk: yeah, I've thought about that, but since I'm just getting started, it will get better over time
# 
@Johannes_Ernst "How I built my own personal cloud" http://petar.petrovic.io/2013/10/17/how-i-built-my-own-personal-cloud/ #pcloud #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/390920188637741057)
# wyomingplease tantek: thanks, Indie Web made me start blogging again :)
# wyomingplease exactly
# wyomingplease it's pure marketing in my opinion
# wyomingplease tantek: I just want to build stronger digital identity online and get involved more profoundly in this indie web thing :)
# wyomingplease elasticity often means different things to different people
# wyomingplease it depends on whether it is automatically elastic by design or you have to look after it and expand it on your behalf
# wyomingplease well you're right, but still people call things "cloud" even if they are not automatically expandable
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# wyomingplease that's exactly what I'm doing, but some people just don't want to bother
# wyomingplease a server can be for any purpose :)
# wyomingplease yeah, it's completely for personal purposes
# wyomingplease at least for now
# wyomingplease but I like it this way
# wyomingplease VPSes are damn cheap these days...
# wyomingplease and they're expandable so you can scale any time :)
# wyomingplease I pay flat fee, I like to predict my costs
# wyomingplease yeah, but I used a little of marketing mumbo jumbo to better explain what I'm doing :)
# wyomingplease right, but the general idea is that once you set everything up, you don't really need to think of it as a single server instance, since you've got a bunch of stuff on it and you just use it as any real cloud service
# wyomingplease well nothing is actually "cloud", but people still use the term a lot
# wyomingplease cloud is just a glorified business model with heavy virtualization under the hood
# wyomingplease sure, but I use the term cloud exclusively for the sake of clarity, I'm not really an expert on the marketing terminology
# wyomingplease we agree that we disagree :)
# wyomingplease I just think of it as a set of services where you don't really have to think about where the data actually goes, you just know that it's going somewhere where you can control it, or not if you're using a mainstream service, that's all
# wyomingplease I don't go deeper than that so I don't think of elasticity and stuff
# wyomingplease exactly
# jernst_ for me, "cloud" = "don't need to worry"
# wyomingplease yeah, once you set everything up the way you like it, you don't have to constantly look after it, a little maintenance from time to time is sufficient
# wyomingplease unless you're hosting Gmail or something
# jernst_ well, worry-free doesn't exist. if not caps, then metered $, so i might have to worry more
# wyomingplease they don't terminate my account, they charge me over my base fee for exceeding usage
# wyomingplease *exceeded
# wyomingplease tantek: technically, yes
# wyomingplease I thought service too, my mistake
# tantek jernst - the NIST definition here (scroll a bit) is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing#Characteristics
# jernst_ I know it and I don't disagree, just words have a way of evolving
# tantek as technical people we shouldn't buy into that kind of bulshytt ( http://indiewebcamp.com/bulshytt )
# jernst_ well, I have long time ago given up attempting to freeze any definition of anything in normal language use, whether the sales guys stretch it or anybody else
# jernst_ everybody is guilty of it in one way or another, (not just about cloud, but any term)
# jernst_ I own a great book about the roots of English words, and some of them have a rather mind boggling evolution behind them
# jernst_ I rather focus on what the principles are instead of whether this word or that is "correctly" used
# jernst_ or literary talent, or probably a number of other things
# tantek or if you prefer your message in t-shirt form: http://stml.spreadshirt.co.uk/the-cloud-is-a-lie-men-A16241807
# jernst_ I'm all in favor of precision when precision is warranted … but it's not my #1 goal in itself
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# sparverius does iwc have any SF beer-ups coming up
# 
tantek.com created /cloud (+3048) "stub with essential NIST definition, misuses, articles, see also" (view diff)
# tantek sparverius - I don't see any on http://indiewebcamp.com/events but you could propose one - all it takes is two people agreeing to host it and posting the details on a wiki page.
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# tantek aaronpk - were you POSSEing replies when you posted this? http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/04/19/2/indieweb
# tantek !tell barnabywalters were you POSSEing replies when you posted this? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1334/
# tantek !tell eschnou did you POSSE https://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html to Twitter? if so what was the tweet permalink? and are you displaying/linking-to rel=syndication POSSE copies now on your posts?
# tantek aaronpk - http://webmention.io/#streaming-api looks cool but I'm not sure how to use it yet. Minor nit - typo at end: ">/script>" should be "</script>"
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# tantek.com edited /webmention (+605) "supersedes Pingback, unlink .org from top since it is out of date, no idea when it will be updated, update curl to use rel=webmention, note grep caveats" (view diff)
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# 
Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 41 minutes ago: were you POSSEing replies when you posted this? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1334/
# barnabywalters checks logs
# Loqi THINK ALL THE LIBRARIES http://loqi.me/85p
# barnabywalters tantek: looks like I was, as the previous note (also a reply) was POSSEd: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1331/
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# barnabywalters although that was a reply to a tweet
# barnabywalters I certainly hadn’t figured out original post discovery then
# barnabywalters RE sync/async webmention sending: I actually cheat and have an almost hybrid approach, documented here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4R_M2J/
# barnabywalters tantek: no idea — it’s difficult to justify stuff like this in hindsight ;)
# barnabywalters and there were some bugs in my twitter POSSE code for a while which prevented POSSE if the in-reply-to URL was not a twitter.com URL
# barnabywalters I remember thinking it would be weird for people to see my reply tweets to non-tweet content, as they’d always have to click through to get context
# barnabywalters especially if the replied-to person had no twitter handle — then it just looks like a completely random tweet
# barnabywalters tantek: indeed, and since ditching twitter as a place to post stuff the way I reply to stuff has changed completely
# barnabywalters fewer mindless “+1” style replies, more questions, longer responses
# barnabywalters yes. replies now have to be good enough for them to go alongside all my other notes, as I have no separate reply stream
# barnabywalters good for all the above reasons. the only thing this approach misses out on is small social interactions and positive reinforcement
# barnabywalters but there are other channels which are (at the moment) more effective for that — favoriting/liking, talking in IRC or IM
# barnabywalters or, heck, in person
# barnabywalters is writing a series of blog posts about this stuff at the moment
# barnabywalters as 2013 is my 10 year web publishing anniversary
# barnabywalters tantek: at the moment, yes. I need to fix that
# barnabywalters hm, interesting — the spec lists both in the example but doesn’t explicitly require either
# barnabywalters indeed
# barnabywalters tantek: yeah, sandeep didn’t want to do that for some reason
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# barnabywalters morning acegiak
# barnabywalters are you using pfefferle’s “put mf2 markup in wordpress” plugin?
# barnabywalters we think it might be that, clashing with microformats already in wordpress themes, which is causing the problems
# barnabywalters ah, interesting
# tantek.com edited /webmention (+1742) "/* Implementations */ split into IndieWeb vs. library sections, add IndieWeb implementations in rough chronological order from memory, leave ??? where specific dates unknown" (view diff)
# barnabywalters !tell pfefferle looks like there might be a bug with sempress/wordpress mf2 plugin causing mf2 classnames and classic mf fallback classnames to be on different elements, documented here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#mixture_of_microformats2_and_classic_microformats_classnames_on_different_elements — any ideas?
# tantek alright, in the process of figuring out what I need to implement to automatically discover webmention endpoints in practice, I've started documenting some of your implementations http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_implementations (cc: aaronpk barnabywalters benwerd adactio)
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# barnabywalters tantek: no, I look for a link header using a HTTP request library, then use PHP DOMDocument to search for <link rel="[http://]webmention[.org]" elements
# barnabywalters using phpmf2 is a good plan for looking for HTML links as it handles all the URL resolution stuff automatically
# barnabywalters thanks to aaronpk
# barnabywalters and sandeep wrote a tiny little state machine for parsing link headers
# barnabywalters tantek: pretty sure I just look for elements with rel~=webmention and nonempty href
# barnabywalters the idea is to allow people to use regexes to discover the headers, a la pingback
# barnabywalters so in theory you’re not allowed to put the rel and href attributes the wrong way round
# barnabywalters tantek: doesn’t it? https://github.com/phpish/webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L20
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# barnabywalters s/doesn’t/does
# Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: tantek: does it? https://github.com/phpish/webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L20
# barnabywalters parsing HTML is not a big deal. we shouldn’t be advocating using regexes to parse HTML
# barnabywalters is that a problem?
# tantek and I've specified in the rel registry that webmention is only allowed on <link> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
# barnabywalters be liberal in what you accept, etc…
# barnabywalters if you’re letting people inject arbitrary HTML they you probably have bigger problems than webmentions going to the wrong place
# barnabywalters if it starts to actually cause problems then people will fix their purifiers
# barnabywalters acegiak: there’s .h-entry on the <body>
# barnabywalters protip: command-F in view-source window :)
# barnabywalters (or control-F if that’s your thing)
# barnabywalters tantek: pin13 offers no way to activate BC mode, which is what’s causing these problems
# barnabywalters unless there’s a hidden query param somewhere which does it
# barnabywalters tantek: IIRC not by default because simple class replacement is hacky and quite slow
# barnabywalters PHP mf2 is not very fast anyway
# barnabywalters it gets up to multiple 10ths of a second on larger documents
# barnabywalters acegiak: I would really recommend adding the mf2 by hand
# barnabywalters you’ll have more control, learn more about how they work, and be able to add more details
# barnabywalters the plugin can’t hook into many elements
# tantek.com edited /webmention (+110) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ werd.io also sends the HTTP Link: header" (view diff)
# barnabywalters acegiak: at the moment the tools which have a good UX (the wordpress plugin) don’t do a very good job of adding mf2, due to wordpress’s limitations
# tantek aaronpk - perhaps update your entry here? http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_implementations
# barnabywalters it’s a nice drop-in quick fix, but if you care about good markup (which I’m assuming is the case, as you’re here ;) editing by hand is currently the most effective approach
# barnabywalters indeed
# barnabywalters when pfefferle drops by we can figure out if it is an issue with sempress, and hopefully resolve it
# barnabywalters tantek: I left one eariler
# barnabywalters earlier
# barnabywalters acegiak: we’re documenting the places this issue’s popping up here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#mixture_of_microformats2_and_classic_microformats_classnames_on_different_elements
# barnabywalters the fact that this is happening at all points to a need for better documentation and validators
# acegiak quick question: is the h-cite context stuff right on http://acegiak.machinespirit.net/2013/10/17/barnaby-walters-notes-another-thing-i-love-about-the-web-users-have-the-power-to-take-control-of-their-uis-and-improve-their-own-experiences-aside-drm-for-html-would-prevent-this-from-being-possibl/ ?
# barnabywalters acegiak: h-cite markup there looks good to me!
# barnabywalters the nested <a> elements are a bit weird
# barnabywalters tantek: automatically detecting problems like this and bringing them to the user’s attention
# barnabywalters which is what bnvk and I are working towards on indiewebify.me
# barnabywalters offering documentation, support etc
# barnabywalters well I can change phpmf2 to do BN by default without too much trouble
# barnabywalters I doubt it’ll cause any problems
# barnabywalters BC
# barnabywalters sure — any progress getting new e-* parsing rules in the spec?
# barnabywalters that will be a bigger change, breaking BC with previous versions
# barnabywalters phpmf2 is getting a bit messy, it needs cleaning — may as well do API changes at the same time as other BC breaking parts
# barnabywalters is it considered finalised and ready for implementations though?
# barnabywalters I have no issues with it
# barnabywalters excellent
# barnabywalters so I’ll clean phpmf2 and the shim, update mf-cleaner and then release shiny new versions
# barnabywalters sounds like a good weekend project
# barnabywalters I don’t have permissions to edit the parsing spec, otherwise I’d have added it already :)
# hadleybeeman Valid question, acegiak. How long do you think it'll be before we see "20 years of ongoing hosting!" added to death insurance?
# hadleybeeman :) Go for it. Hope you make a bundle, acegiak.
# tantek acegiak - no illusion any more: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths
# hadleybeeman I suspect most people also don't think about permanence. Silos give the illusion of "managed", and it's easier to say, "I assume they'll have thought of everything I might need."
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# hadleybeeman S/easier to say/easy for most users to assume
# hadleybeeman That makes sense, acegiak.
# hadleybeeman In my view, that one comes up for average user when a Facebook friend dies. It's an odd and jarring experience.
# hadleybeeman (But I can see why the issue wouldn't occur to someone often for consideration.)
# barnabywalters handling deaths on FB is something which makes me angry at facebook (they could take the opportunity to have a real positive effect on people’s lives)
# barnabywalters but people tend to use the inadequate tools it gives them to mourn and celebrate anyway
# barnabywalters I don’t think so
# barnabywalters so good people make up for facebook’s inadequacy
# hadleybeeman Acegiak: a friend of mine died last summer. Facebook waited for x number of death reports from us (corroborated with obituaries), and then they eventually "memorialised" his page — freezing some of the features.
# hadleybeeman Right. And no longer accepting friend requests.
# hadleybeeman Also, oddly enough, his profile underwent a lot of traffic (mostly new tags in photos people were posting in their own accounts) and my timeline was flooded with them. Bug? Feature? Algorithmic result of the activity? I don't know.
# tantek.com edited /webmention (+226) "/* How to Test Webmentions */ another caveat - some sites/tools only do discovery via HTTP Link header" (view diff)
# barnabywalters acegiak: h-entry and hentry need to be on the same element
# barnabywalters doesn’t particularly matter which element, body is good
# barnabywalters acegiak: I had a poke around in the sempress template and couldn’t figure out where anything was
# tantek.com edited /webmention (+489) "add subheads to brainstorming, add Discovery in PHP section" (view diff)
# barnabywalters oh okay
# tantek acegiak - re: where to put which microformat class name, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#backward_compatible
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# acegiak http://www.dodgebrothersaustralia.com/page.php is my dad's site still using it
# barnabywalters okay, phpmf2 updated to parse in BC mode by default: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/tree/v0.1.22
# barnabywalters goodnight all