#indiewebcamp 2013-10-18

2013-10-18 UTC
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tantek
my posting UI right now provides the permalink of the POSSEd tweet
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tantek
so I'm thinking of providing some sort of feedback for webmentions sent too, even just a simple list
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aaronpk
my posting UI redirects to the post URL after it's created.
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aaronpk
that was my hack^H^H^H^Hsolution after an embarrasing live demo of showing a giant PHP array on screen after posting
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tantek
I do like the idea of demo-driven design
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tantek
it's like public realtime selfdogfooding :)
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+1044) "/* Working On */ webmention sending brainstorming, update why details, add to demo real-time comments showing up, why show webmention feedback in posting UI"
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tantek.com
edited /webmention (+68) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ p3k async sends, no results reported"
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
!tell benwerd do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
I just showed some of our guys the sample code on webmention.io and blew their minds :) they were like "it's this easy to add comments to the site??"
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tantek
aaronpk - note typo at bottom of webmention.io - >/script>
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aaronpk
heh thanks
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tantek
aaronpk - oh that's interesting - are you thinking about adding h-entry markup to the indiewebcamp mediawiki template?
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tantek
so that more shows up in reply contexts?
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aaronpk
that would be fun
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aaronpk
but no, that was sample data for testing comments on the new esripdx blog
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tantek
ah ok - was just thinking about it - e.g. what if the indiewebcamp wiki itself sent webmentions
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aaronpk
could be interesting
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tantek
so that, e.g. when a wiki page cited one of your posts or articles, you would find out about it
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aaronpk
I think we haven't explored much on the use case/UI side for non-time-based URLs
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tantek
on the receiving side, do you want to know when a wiki page links to your site?
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aaronpk
in general I like to know about inbound links
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aaronpk
but I'm not sure if or how I would want to display a link from the wiki
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tantek
well you're replying to a wik page and sending it a webmention, shouldn't you thus be ok receiving one from it too?
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tantek
s/wik/wiki
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: well you're replying to a wiki page and sending it a webmention, shouldn't you thus be ok receiving one from it too?
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acegiak
perhaps the webmention comes from the page displaying the change that added the link?
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tantek
that would be another way to do it - to have revision / deltas send webmentions, similar to how they are posted here in IRC
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tantek
those would even have a specific author could be marked up with p-author h-card
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bret
aaronpk, that was a lot of fun at pints! :) thanks for doing that
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petar.petrovic.io
created /User:Petar.petrovic.io (+172) "Created page with "I am a student from Paraćin, Serbia, currently majoring in software engineering. Recently I got interested in independent web and I occasionally blog at petar.petrovic.io.""
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petar.petrovic.io
edited /IRC_People (+63) "Added myself to the list (wyomingplease)"
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tantek
tommorris - are you automatically sending webmentions?
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tantek.com
edited /webmention (+356) "/* rel webmention */ supersedes .org URL rel value"
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tantek
!tell tommorris do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak
possible indieauth issue:
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acegiak.machinespirit.net
edited /IRC_People (+68) "Adding Myself"
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tantek.com
edited /geo-wiki (+91) "add similar work with geopad"
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tantek.com
edited /cloud (+108) "clouds in error message"
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tantek.com
edited /cloud (+1) "/* in error messages */ sp"
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tommorris
tantek: Should be
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Loqi
tommorris: tantek left you a message 58 minutes ago: do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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tommorris
And it should be async
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tantek.com
created /feedly (+280) "draft with a stub with down messsage"
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tantek
tommorris - so does it just happen automatically in the background after you post/publish?
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tantek
does your server has some long running process that looks for new posts?
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tantek
and do you remember when you added support for (semi-)automatically sending webmentions?
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tantek.com
edited /webmention (+220) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ add tommorris.org / Ferocity as example of indieweb implementation that sends webmentions - unknown dates leave as 2013-??-??"
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tantek
Did sandeep break his site? I'm seeing no content text on his home page or permalinks: http://www.sandeep.io/ http://www.sandeep.io/55
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acegiak
looks broken to me
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Loqi
eschnou: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 37 minutes ago: did you POSSE https://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html to Twitter? if so what was the tweet permalink? and are you displaying/linking-to rel=syndication POSSE copies now on your posts?
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eschnou
!tell tantek hmm, I don't recall syndicating it on twitter, and google leads me nowhere, so I probably didn't since I considered it a test that could fail :-) Also, I don't keep track of where content is syndicated.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tommorris
useful to know, Loqi. :)
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Loqi
who, me?
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 16 minutes ago: do you discover&send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously in your posting UI? either way, do you report webmention results back to your posting UI?
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tommorris
hey barnabywalters
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barnabywalters
morning tommorris
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tommorris
Guess what I'm having to do today?
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barnabywalters
FB development?
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tommorris
It's a four letter acronym.
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tommorris
Oh no. Far worse than that.
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tommorris
Yeah. It's truly atrocious. I want to find all the people responsible for WS-* and beat them with a sackful of doorknobs.
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cweiske
so what's the alternative web service technology that gives you machine-readable introspection and validation?
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Jihaisse
nothing
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Jihaisse
and doing nothing is good
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Jihaisse
barnabywalters: Hi, do you saw that facebook change the url directly in the link markup ?
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Jihaisse
<a class="pam shareText" onclick="" onmouseover="" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F17OTpsM&h=EAQFSOPMi&enc=AZMMdnV2LrZOcLxD4NpawRIuMFeejUuxIPZCIF6s-GG9vSS-IqSU7Pbg1FADX6cNJ69WyKqpmaeqefq3GlRvdZw_QFPkPuGPZxlB0BLG_MaEDKnbX3US74QM3o5X3Nz_5EdDMnsV3fRIDv-lMNVSRKcs&s=1">
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Loqi
tantek: eschnou left you a message 5 hours, 31 minutes ago: hmm, I don't recall syndicating it on twitter, and google leads me nowhere, so I probably didn't since I considered it a test that could fail :-) Also, I don't keep track of where content is syndicated.
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tantek
eschnou - ok, cool.
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@bethelightwrite
#FREE on #Kindle today! Riverbend: The Collection #ebook #series #romanticsuspense #NA http://www.amazon.com/Riverbend-The-Collection-Andrea-Goodson-ebook/dp/B00FE5BTLK #BYNR #indieauth #RT
(twitter.com/_/status/391198570524585984)
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tantek
eschnou - it also looks like https://eschnou.com/entry/testing-indieweb-federation-with-waterpigscouk-aaronpareckicom-and--62-24908.html only accepts pingbacks, not webmentions, right?
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eschnou
tantek, yup, never took the time to implement webmentions :-(
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tantek
right, so if my site only sends webmentions, my comments won't show up there.
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tantek
next question for all you webmention senders (aaronpk, barnabywalters, benwerd, tommorris), do you also always send pingbacks? or does your code first do webmention discovery and only if no endpoint found, then look for pingback endpoints and send them?
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cweiske
my lib first tries webmention, and then falls back to pingback
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barnabywalters
tantek: taproot looks for webmention, falls back to pingback
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tantek
cweiske - cool. Is that deployed live on your site?
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tantek
barnabywalters - good to know
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cweiske
no, i'm still working on the unit tests
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tantek
barnabywalters - presumably that's per link in your posts?
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barnabywalters
tantek: per link in the content of posts plus in-reply-to URL
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tantek
i.e. iterate through links, for each link, do webmention discovery (and send), if no endpoint found, do pingback discovery (and send)
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cweiske
my lib does both at once, so that I don't have to do all http requests twice
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tantek
cweiske - how do you do both at once?
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barnabywalters
yeah, I only make the request once for each URL
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tantek
only one request for discovery then?
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cweiske
e.g. xpath that returns both webmention and pingback urls
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cweiske
tantek, yes
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tantek
cweiske - do you then just use the first you find? or if your xpath finds multiple endpoints do you send both?
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barnabywalters
and we can’t even cache the endpoint URLs per-domain because they could in theory be different for each post
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tantek
right
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cweiske
no. after I get the list with links, I first use the webmention one if there is one
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tantek
ok, that's basically what I was describing. I was assuming only one HTTP get for the discovery steps
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barnabywalters
1. HTTP GET of URL
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barnabywalters
1. if header or body contains webmention link, send and return
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barnabywalters
3. if header or body contain pingback link, send and return
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cweiske
btw, I do a HEAD request first
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tantek
barnabywalters - does Taproot's posting UI send webmentions/pingbacks synch or async? and does it report results back to you?
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barnabywalters
cweiske: if the HEAD request doesn’t return anything do you make another GET as well?
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cweiske
because they might be sending no header links, only in the html
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barnabywalters
cweiske: I wonder whether overall it’s quicker to just do a GET request instead of potentially making two requests
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cweiske
depends on the size of the page :)
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tantek
indeed
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cweiske
and for non-html urls, it's the sane solution
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cweiske
you wouldn't even have to do the GET request when you don't receive a HTML content type
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tantek
barnabywalters does your posting UI send webmentions synchronously or asynchronously?
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barnabywalters
tantek: sort of hybrid. technically they’re sent synchronously, but I send them after the response content’s been sent to the browser
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barnabywalters
so posting feels really quick without the need for a task queue
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tantek
cweiske, by "HTML urls", do you mean type text/html, or do you have a longer list e.g. including application/xhtml+xml etc.?
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tantek
barnabywalters - makes sense. but then you don't display any results of the webmentions in your posting UI?
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cweiske
I accept 'application/xhtml+xml', 'text/html',
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cweiske
and use load() resp. loadhtml() depending on their content type
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barnabywalters
doing it all synchronously would allow that but be really slow, doing it async involves setting up a load of realtime infrastructure
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tantek
right
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tantek
but could be useful for demos
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barnabywalters
or I could save the results of each webmention request on the note and then just wait a few seconds before sending an AJAX request and reloading note content
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tantek
yes that could be interesting too
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cweiske
my tool does wait fetches my atom feed, checks if there are updates and sends linkbacks out for new links
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tantek
barnabywalters - when did you first start sending webmentions?
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cweiske
s/wait fetches/fetch/
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Loqi
cweiske meant to say: my tool does fetch my atom feed, checks if there are updates and sends linkbacks out for new links
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barnabywalters
11th June 2013 according to git log
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barnabywalters
(site is down so can’t search :(
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tantek
when did you start accepting webmentions? same day?
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barnabywalters
20th June 2013, apparently
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barnabywalters
implemented comment updating on the 23rd
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tantek
right before indiewebcamp2013 :)
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tantek
does updating include delete? full comment CRUD?
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barnabywalters
no, no deletion
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barnabywalters
although updating to an empty comment does exactly the same thing
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barnabywalters
or, almost exactly the same
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tantek
how about you tommorris - when did you start sending webmentions (and do you accept them too?)
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tantek
barnabywalters - what does your code do if it gets a 410 from the target?
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barnabywalters
nothing special
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tantek
(with an empty body - does it then update to an empty body?)
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tantek
er, empty comment
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barnabywalters
if it gets a 401 and the e-content is “this post has been deleted”, then it’ll update to an empty comment
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tantek
you look for that string literal?
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tantek.com
edited /webmention (+1045) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ note Taproot sync detail, cweiske's approach"
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barnabywalters
is anyone who’s sending indieweb comments deleting and sending 410s?
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tantek
benwerd is
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tantek
returning 410s, but yes
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tantek
and his code responds to 410s by deleting received comments also
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tantek
I think I like cweiske's HEAD request first approach because it seems like the simplest way to both minimize bytes requested by the server and avoid GETting non-HTML links (which I do link to plenty often)
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aaronpk
tantek: I also look for webmention first, and fall back to pingback if not found
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tantek
aaronpk - somewhere on the wiki I wrote up a feature request for pingback.me or webmention.io to synthesize pingbacks but I can't find it
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+863) "/* Working On */ more webmention implementation details. HEAD request before GET, fallback to pingback discovery/sending, and reasons why for each"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+53) "/* Working On */ id for show-webmentions"
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tantek
aaronpk, barnabywalters - I've captured my brainstorming on showing webmention results and reasons why I want to do this here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#show-webmentions
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barnabywalters
tantek: howyouknowme protocol?
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barnabywalters
thinking a little about the stream pagination problems we were talking about with Alf at IWCUK
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barnabywalters
the problem is that pagination is done on the page level
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tantek
barnabywalters - indeed, a potential 3rd parameter for webmention that we may end up needing as part of an evolving dynamic whitelist / second-degree approach to fighting spam.
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barnabywalters
they go away if we don’t trust rel=next/previous on stream pages, and only trust prev/next rels on individual post pages
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tantek
they also go away if pagination always reflects a specific date-time period
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tantek
from/to. or sequential post numbers.
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barnabywalters
tantek: but that can’t be done easily with static sites
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cweiske
or if page numbers are used the other way round than currently
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tantek
no it should be easier for static sites
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cweiske
currently, the lastest posts are on page 0/1
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cweiske
this is wrong
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tantek
since the pagination shouldn't change over time
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cweiske
tantek, exactly
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tantek
cweiske - yes
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cweiske
isn't it nice to agree to each other ?:)
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tantek
my approach on this is to use time periods for pagination, e.g. day-by-day, week-by-week etc.
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barnabywalters
tantek: you have page-level pagination? where?
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tantek
cweiske - I meant yes to "currently, the lastest posts are on page 0/1. this is wrong" :)
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tantek
I'm looking at it from the permalink perspective
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tantek
barnabywalters - well, I have per-post page-level pagination :)
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tantek
and if you hack my permalinks you can see all posts for that day ;)
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tantek
(but there's no explicit nav for that yet)
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barnabywalters
where is there an example of a static site with working, time-based feed page pagination?
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tantek
what does "feed" have anything to do with it?
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barnabywalters
I can’t think how that can work without producing thousands of files, or breaking permalinks
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tantek
the time-base is on when the content was produced, not when the pagination was requested
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tantek
hence, universal
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tantek
barnabywalters see above URL for an example of day-by-day pagination
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barnabywalters
I am communicating ineffectively again and will stop
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barnabywalters
at some point I’ll write up a post about what the problem is and how I think post-level pagination crawling fixes it
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tantek
wait, you're not actually asking for *page numbers* are you? Those are just silly. This is the web, we don't have page numbers :P
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barnabywalters
tantek: no, indeed I am now
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barnabywalters
quite the opposite
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tantek
we don't actually need pagination - just crawlable archives by date-time period
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tantek
barnabywalters - when you write your post about it, please start from the end user use case. e.g. user comes to your site, and then wants to ...
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tantek
absence of that was the biggest problem with most of what Alf was saying / asking for
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tantek
he kept asking for abstract APIs and stuff to build products/apps that are now obsolete (standalone readers)
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tantek
use-cases good, API requests bad
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tantek
is off for a run
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aaronpk
just discovered major limitation of hosting on github pages... can't create a 301 redirect when pages are moved!
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: you can do a manual HTML redirect though, right?
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aaronpk
yeah but that sucks
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aaronpk
i have to make a file at the old URL that has a meta refresh tag and link rel canoncal and such
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Loqi
shaners: aaronpk left you a message on 10/17 at 11:13am: just got my flight for Farmhouse conf weekend!
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shaners
aaronpk: weeeee!
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shaners
did y'all hear about dopplr dying? http://www.dopplr.com
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shaners
on 2013-11-01
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Loqi
!calc on 2013-11-01
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barnabywalters
wow — they win the award for ugliest shutdown page
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shaners
well. they ARE nokia.
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hadleybeeman
shaners: do we know why? Their wikipedia page doesn't even mention it. (ping: tommorris. Sorry :) )
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barnabywalters
tantek: RE webmention GET/HEAD discovery, ideally you’d be able to send the request, then check the headers before reading the body — if the headers contain a Link or content type isn’t HTML, close the connection, otherwise parse body
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barnabywalters
not sure how tricky it’d be to do in PHP though
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shaners
hadleybeeman: no idea. i just saw it mentioned on twitter by @tomcoates.
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@tomcoates
Looks like http://www.dopplr.com/ is finally going away. Like @fireeagle before it, placed in a longboat and pushed out into the misty sea.
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friedcell
reading headers before body? not much, but server is still going to make all the effort of making the body
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hadleybeeman
Fair enough, shaners. I guess it's not a huge surprise.
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barnabywalters
friedcell: good point, I wonder how long that typically takes
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barnabywalters
often in order to generate the headers it’ll require the same DB/file access it would to make the body
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barnabywalters
which is probably a significantly larger time sink than template rendering
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shaners
1. startup gets awesome on its own
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shaners
2. startup gets bought megalocrop
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shaners
3. startup people leave or get assimilated
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shaners
4. startup gets "sunsetted" / "end of lifed" by megalocrop
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tantek
shaners pretty much
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shaners
tantek: rinse and repeat
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tantek
shaners - note the investors, which probably had something to do with the decision to sell to Nokia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopplr#Investors_in_Dopplr
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friedcell
tantek: that's why you have to plan & execute data portability & licensing issues before getting bought by megalocorp :)
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shaners
export on day 1
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tantek
this is why POSSE is the right approach, not PESOS
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friedcell
barnabywalters: often true, but not always...
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tantek
when you POSSE, and a downstream silo gets shutdown, it's like oh well, who cares, I owned the permalinks anyway
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friedcell
tantek: true
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tantek
with PESOS, you then have to do a bunch of work to switch to posting from your own site
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tantek
treat all silos as purgeable caches, nothing more
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barnabywalters
tantek: in other words, treat silos like databases ;)
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friedcell
barnabywalters: :D
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tantek
barnabywalters indeed. I see an architecture diagram forming. ;)
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barnabywalters
actually, great point — the relationship between your site and silos is exactly the same as between human readabale flat files and DBs
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barnabywalters
s/readabale/readable
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: actually, great point — the relationship between your site and silos is exactly the same as between human readable flat files and DBs
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josephboyle
does it depend on the silo supplying convenient APIs for posting and reading?
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tantek
josephboyle why would it? PESOS = a dependence on the silo = you're vulnerable when it inevitably shuts down.
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tantek
POSSE = maybe your code gets an error code when it attempts to explicitly syndicate out. Which if you code defensively you just ignore and go on your merry way.
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josephboyle
if you haven't scraped it yet
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tantek
scrape/export status has nothing to do with POSSE vs. PESOS
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tantek
hadleybeeman - why don't you update the wikipedia page instead of asking tommorris to do so? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopplr
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josephboyle
can you do either without APIs? if not you're dependent on scraping
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hadleybeeman
tantek: believe it or not, I don't have a wikipedia account. And I understand it takes a bit of work before they let you do live stuff.
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tantek
every even semi-popular service I know of has some sort of API to post/syndicate to it - except Instagram
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tantek
hadleybeeman - not true. you can edit anonymously, and it takes <1min to create an account.
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tantek
and just another minute to add a sentence at the top about the shutdown
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josephboyle
how are facebook's? the most interactive stuff is commenting on people's facebook posts
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josephboyle
yes, just make sure you add the source documenting the shutdown
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tantek
josephboyle - dopplr.com has it right there on the home page
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tantek
so you can just say "on the home page"
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tantek
no need for an explicit ref
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tantek
josephboyle - is FB interop/POSSE your #1 priority for your personal site?
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josephboyle
i'll add it. any other notes?
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josephboyle
probably not for mine, but is biggest case for social for people in general
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josephboyle
added to wikipedia page
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barnabywalters
a quick bit of thoroughly unscientific testing indicates that the time-to-headers-received for HEAD vs GET requests is not significantly different either way
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tantek
josephboyle - don't worry about "biggest case for social for people in general" - that's too hard to predict/understand (unless you've got some solid data/studies behind your hypothesis there)
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tantek
worry about / build what's the priority for your own personal site instead
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hadleybeeman
Absolutely, tantek. And when I have a free extra minute, I'll look forward to starting that. :)
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barnabywalters
the only place I can find a consistent difference (HEAD being faster than GET) is on google.com, and there it’s < 0.1 of a second
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tantek
hadleybeeman - it doesn't take much longer to edit a wiki page than it does to say something in IRC - so clearly you have free extra minutes :P
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tantek
barnabywalters - do you ever link to large JPEGs or other media files? what does your system do then when doing a GET to send a webmention/pingback?
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barnabywalters
tantek: yes, quite often. I don’t do any particularly intelligent checking
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tantek
yeah - I don't want to accidentally cause massive GET requests
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tantek
on my server. so a HEAD first seems like a reasonable defense against that.
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barnabywalters
all of this is premature optimisation anyway ;)
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tantek
barnabywalters - I disagree - I've already linked to many MB/GB resources in the past - so that's not premature/hypothetical
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tantek
it's not optimization, it's defensive programming
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barnabywalters
GB? wow, like what?
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tantek
from an HTTP requests count point of view, it's *suboptimal* for the common case of HTML files
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tantek
GB - highdef video recording of talks
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tantek
so it's not optimization at all (at least I don't think so, perhaps cweiske has different opinion/experience)
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tantek
I'm doing HEAD first more for defensive reasons (and as an "easy" way to do the Link: header checking first)
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barnabywalters
makes sense
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barnabywalters
I wonder if opening a GET request to a huge resource and then closing the connection after parsing the headers causes much load for the server
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barnabywalters
that’s a little more tricky to test
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tantek
tricky = harder to debug too
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tantek
is in favor of simpler, more predictable code/interactions
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tantek
= easier to maintain code
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peat
barnabywalters: probably depends on the server as well.
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peat
HEAD +1
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aaronpk
tantek: Aral just gave his talk on Indie Data here in Portland
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: does realtimeconf have a real time stream?
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aaronpk
looks like there are cameras, not sure if it's being streamed
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barnabywalters
what was the indiedata talk like?
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aaronpk
similar to the one in brighton
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barnabywalters
didn’t see the one in Brighton
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barnabywalters
is caseorganic’s talk on later today or tomorrow?
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aaronpk
tomorrow at 4:45 pdt or so
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barnabywalters
chrome’s extension permissions are so weird
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barnabywalters
you can’t install extensions by downloading them, or by opening the files, and there’s no button in the extensions UI or file menu to install one
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barnabywalters
but you can install untrusted extensions with almost no warnings by dragging them in
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tantek
aaronpk - what does Aral's indiedata talk have to do with realtime?
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caseorganic
tantek: not sure at all, but he was given a standing ovation by about 30% of the audience
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caseorganic
tantek: and it was more about focusing on design in open source. started off a little strange and then inspired people, so it was useful
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caseorganic
he said that he created the term indiedata - which reminds me. it's time for an official timeline of indieweb
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caseorganic
tantek: especially after i give the ending talk
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aaronpk
interestingly the theme of this year's realtimeconf is all anti-silo. http://instagram.com/p/fnbJlnDcuM/
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caseorganic
there is a protest
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tantek
caseorganic - I had the same thought about /timeline
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caseorganic
tantek: history or timeline - timeline might be more applicable
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tantek
each has a purpose
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caseorganic
tantek: my talk will be a history, so i can fill in that section after giving the talk
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caseorganic
tantek: this happened in the wearable computing community.
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tantek
the timeline would be good for key achievements with citations
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caseorganic
searches for weblink over frustratingly slow wifi
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aaronpk
why is my LTE so bad here!!
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tantek
a /history page would be good for a more *thorough* history of indieweb and silos along with deadends of various open source projects
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aaronpk
too many nerds with LTE all in the same place
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caseorganic
tantek: good
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tantek
case organic - exactly. except we have ISODate to the day granularity
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caseorganic
tantek: re: /history vs. /timeline page - i'll stub both out so we have context when filling them in later
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caseorganic
tantek: great
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tantek
caseorganic - go for it
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caseorganic
tantek: ugh, slow internet is slow. this is psychologically demoralizing
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tantek
the key is, /timeline for *key* *indieweb* ideas/achievements, and /history for *thorough* *contextual* history
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tantek
caseorganic - no problem - don't worry about stubbing the pages then
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tantek
focus on the present and collecting data from realtime conf - you can wiki it later
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aaronpk
slow internet is the worst!!!
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aaronpk
it's like having an arm cut off
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caseorganic.com
created /timeline (+229) "Added stub for Timeline page"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - do you know when you (or anyone) first sent a *webmention* that resulted in a cross-site syndicated comment?
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tantek
since eschnou's post with federated comments was done via *pingback* not webmention
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caseorganic.com
created /History (+176) "Added stub for IndieWeb History page"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
oh right!
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tantek
caseorganic - great! I'll add to both
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caseorganic
tantek: i'm starting on timeline. will work on it for next 5 min to dump info into it.
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barnabywalters
hopefully this’ll make it easier for chrome users to install weave: http://waterpigs.co.uk/extensions/weave/#chrome-instructions
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tantek.com
moved /History to /history "lowercase"
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caseorganic.com
edited /timeline (+2356) "Added a data dump"
(view diff)
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tantek
caseorganic - I'm going to move the social network silo stuff to /history - as they're not "key IndieWeb ideas and achievements"
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tantek
also danahboyd has a much more thorough history of social network silo history if you're looking for that
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caseorganic
tantek: k
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caseorganic
tantek: i think that's all my microscopic internet connection can handle
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tantek.com
edited /history (+359) "start moving contextual stuff from timeline to this page"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
here's my feeble attempt at a redirect on gh-pages http://pdx.esri.com/2013/10/11/esri-portland-at-realtime-conf/
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tantek
damn. Simon Willison has silo'd up his personal domain/blog on Tumblr, breaking all his permalinks.
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tantek
dammit people, quit breaking your personal blog permalinks. especially if you happen to conceive, invent, implement key technologies. harumph.
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aaronpk
we should crowd-source a 301 redirect database
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_6a68
there's always the wayback machine :-\
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aaronpk
basically add 301 redirects to indiearchive
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tantek
and wikipedia is useless for history here
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tantek
ok, glass tell the me the earliest reference on the web to "Pingback"
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tantek
even Hixie: "This site is no longer actively maintained. / I mainly post on Google+ now." - http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1032794857&count=1 :(
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tantek
THIS is why we have the selfdogfood requirement in #indiewebcamp - look at the greats before us who were seduced by the silos.
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_6a68
tantek: i have noticed a lot of google folks seem to have moved to G+. I suspect there was some kind of internal arm-twisting.
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tantek
perhaps in general (e.g. dogfooding), however, Hixie is not someone who bends to any kind of arm twisting
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tantek
in his case I believe he made the choice of his own free volition
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_6a68
interesting
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tantek
also - note that Will Norris, at Google, still actively maintains and prefers willnorris.com
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tantek
(formerly of the G+ team even)
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tantek
he's written about it too
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tantek
he's very pro indieweb
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tantek.com
edited /history (+43) "see also site-deaths"
(view diff)
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tantek
at least Hixie's permalinks still work
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+1700) "move some non-key indieweb ideas/achievements to history (needs more pruning/focus), research and document Pingback origination dates with citations, linky linky"
(view diff)
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tantek
ok that's a good enough iteration for now - at least I dug up the Pingback history and we know who to ask for more details if need be
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@t
Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/391294554131165184)
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@kragen
RT @t: Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/391294943299657728)
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@mhmli
RT @t: Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/391295868990930944)
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tantek.com
created /Timeline (+22) "r"
(view diff)
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@giyom
"Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata" - @t re: @dopplr closing
(twitter.com/_/status/391298547997364224)
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+70) "/* needs cleanup */ continue source, ISODates"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (-3) "ISOdates darnit! ahem, caseorganic ;)"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+154) "note similar resource of wearables timeline"
(view diff)
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@smack416
RT @t: Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/391301894053703681)
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@Johannes_Ernst
RT @t: Sad: @Dopplr ends 2013-11-01 (via @tomcoates). Treat all silos as caches, nothing more. #ownyourdata & POSSE to silos. (ttk.me t4Sb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/391302079941058560)
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+603) "add shortcut key (C)onceived, (T)erm introduced/defined, (E)vent, (I)mplemented, (S)pecified and annotate timeline so far accordingly"
(view diff)
caseorga_, bnvk and indiewebcamp-vis joined the channel
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tantek
welcome indiewebcamp-vis! use /nick yournamehere to set it to your alias
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tantek
aaronpk - perhaps we could teach Loqi to welcome indiewebcamp-vis folks that way
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Loqi
is done
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aaronpk
tantek: didn't you explicitly not want that kind of thing from loqi? in favor of a human welcome?
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tantek
aaronpk - human welcome for new aliases, automatic welcome to a default alias makes sense
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tantek
welcome franfran!
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aaronpk
that seems reasonable
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tantek
(like that :) )
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franfran
hi!
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tantek
hello! what brings you to our merry channel?
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franfran
I was looking at tantek's twitter and then his website and then indieweb looked interesting and so . . .
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tantek
cool! do you have your own site?
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franfran
I just want to see what it's about and what's going on
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franfran
I have my own website but it is very basic I would like to make it do more
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tantek
awesome. this is a decent intro into what it's about: http://indiewebcamp.com/
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franfran
thank you very much
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@indieboxproject
In case you want to try out #IndieBox via Amazon EC2, here are getting started instructions: http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Getting_started_with_Amazon_EC2 #pcloud #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/391311530748153856)
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aaronpk
oh looks like there is a live stream http://2013.realtimeconf.com/
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tantek
Aral actually said "We are cyborgs"?!? - caseorganic, he's stealing your old talk! ;)
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@higley
“We are cyborgs.” - @aral #RealtimeConf
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aaronpk
he did! had a whole "we are cyborgs" sequence of slides straight from amber's talk!
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tantek
did he attribute?
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tantek
did you guys go confront him on it in person? that's majorly not cool.
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aaronpk
probably should. not sure how best to do that though
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tantek
privately. message him on some channel, and say hey, really liked your talk, have something I wanted to discuss with you in private.
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tantek
this kind of thing (which tends to be emotionally impactful) is better discussed/resolved in person
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tantek
he might not understand what he did wrong
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tantek
so communicating that in person will help convey it. from my understanding he is a caring person and wants to know about things like this.
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tantek
wtf devseo - you've posted that like 3 times already
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tantek
!spammer devseo
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Loqi
Got it! There are now 4 spammers blacklisted
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peat
gives Loqi a botsnack.
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Loqi
laughs at the botsnack.
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peat
gives Loqi a cupcake.
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Loqi
eats the cupcake.
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peat
Noted.
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tantek
now that was hilarious. well played, peat.
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peat
bows.
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peat
I'll be here all night.
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peat
Probably tomorrow, as well.
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tommorris
sees that hadleybeeman asked him to update the Dopplr article
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tommorris
checks and sees it has an excellent section on Dopplr's sad demise already
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tantek
two week notice
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_6a68
coincidentally the top entry on http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/
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tantek
signs into Dopplr with OpenID delegated to IndieAuth - and it works!!!
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tantek
and that was fast
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peat
That OpenID delegation has saved my bacon a few times.
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tantek
hah - the Dopplr Atom export uses georss for lat long, and gdata for start/end times and named location. sad.
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tantek
however, the entry <content> has escaped HTML with, wait for it - hCalendar!
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tantek
hmm - can't seem to figure out how to export my list of contacts
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peat
Yeah, bit us pretty hard. Had to switch our infrastructure over to public messaging. :/
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peat
... there are some whitelisted sites (eg: cnn.com), but most links get killed.
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aaronpk
"But here’s how I read this: Twitter wasn’t overly concerned about DM spam in the higher ups, until one of the higher ups received the spam. Then they squashed it by banning URLs in DMs."
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aaronpk
#selfdogfood
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@graue
@jeena great link! I've got a lot of reading to do on this IndieWebCamp site, any highlights in your opinion?
(twitter.com/_/status/391331247672139777)
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tantek
ok I've successsfully exported my contacts from Dopplr :D
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tantek
(without any official way to do so)
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tantek
love that totally unbeknownst to folks here people are citing /monoculture
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tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+652) "Dopplr shutdown announced today for 2013-11-01 - just two week notice. note data export URL and how to export contacts"
(view diff)
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@graue
@jeena Hm they're guilty of a similar sin: promoting new thing instead of pingback, without discussing compatibility. http://indiewebcamp.com/Pingback
(twitter.com/_/status/391333157695270912)
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tommorris
r/window 15
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tantek
alright then, I'll add explicit wording on backward compat. sheesh
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@graue
@jeena Oops. Missed the part about the compatibility proxy, never mind.
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_6a68
lol
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tantek.com
edited /pingback (+563) "explicitly mention backward compatibility for reason to receive pingbacks, add new section on How do I implement sending with suggested implementation approach"
(view diff)
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@jeena
@graue I'm sure they don't do everything perfect but they have some great ideas which are much more promising then many of the others.
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tantek
that's pretty much a testimonial :)
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tantek
aaronpk - care to review my pingback edit for accuracy (since you've implemented sending pingbacks and I haven't) ?
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aaronpk
I like this "Just concatenate the strings you need (as documented in that gist) to generate an XML-RPC response by hand"
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aaronpk
works for me
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tantek.com
edited /pingback (+1497) "add history section, excerpting from timeline"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: we have indieweb comments on the new esripdx blog now :) http://pdx.esri.com/blog/2013/10/17/introducting-mapattack/#comments
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: nice work! on comments and map attack alike
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barnabywalters
bnvk and I are setting up some Reykjavík maps
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barnabywalters
have you used the pacman costumes yet?
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aaronpk
oh nice!
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aaronpk
you figured out how to log in? ;)
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barnabywalters
er… twitter log in, right?
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aaronpk
we hid the login link
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tantek
aaronpk - well done!
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barnabywalters
oh huh — apparently I have X-Ray HTML abilities then
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aaronpk
tantek: thanks! it's fun having real designers to work on this :)
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tantek
aaronpk - it's not obvious how to leave a comment - considered the webmention form input approach for the blog?
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aaronpk
yeah, they're working on that now :)
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tantek
is this the first corporate blog that supports receiving webmentions and displaying comments?
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aaronpk
most likely yes :)
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barnabywalters
sounds like an item for /timeline :)
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tantek
aaronpk - no h-entry markup though, so no reply-context ...
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tantek
and your "comment" is a note, rather than a "reply" : http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/10/18/2/realtimeconf-mapattack
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aaronpk
ah crap! I had that in the first design, but it was removed with the new design
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tantek
can you build in a test for them to run, e.g. using pin13.net to process it and then check the JSON output?
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aaronpk
I believe this is the argument most companies use when they say they don't want to add microformats
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tantek
(on a permalink of a past blog post that's not expected to change)
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tantek
well if you add it to the pre-deploy unit-tests...
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aaronpk
heh, a test suite for a static html site :)
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tantek
apparently not-so-static if it can "lose" markup
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aaronpk
well we just launched the new design, it was something I did really quick before
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tantek
which means really quick again right? ;)
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aaronpk
probably yeah
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aaronpk
but not sure how best to add a test framework here
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tantek
presumably they have *some* process before they deploy to make sure they don't break things
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: you could either put it in the deploy workflow, or try to make it part of the front end dev’s lives
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aaronpk
not on this site, we did it pretty quickly
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barnabywalters
e.g. if you have an office dashboard, add a “latest blog posts” section which is from parser mf
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aaronpk
I think I could reasonably add a rake task that does the test
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tantek
barnabywalters - such a dashboard is an *excellent* idea
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aaronpk
our front-end guys are pretty familiar with that kind of command line stuff since we're using middleman (ruby) for all our sites
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barnabywalters
for a lot of people mf2 data is still too intangible
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tantek
building something on top of the API that is the microformats on the page
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tantek
indeed
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barnabywalters
or, even better: make a deploy task which POSSEs the latest blog post to twitter, using mf2 data
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barnabywalters
I guarantee any issues will get fixed quickly then ;)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: nice — using the Panic iOS app or something else?
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aaronpk
got early acces to that app since they're just down the street
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