#indiewebcamp 2013-11-12

2013-11-12 UTC
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KevinMarks_ actually, abetter page explaining what's going on: http://wiki.developerforce.com/page/Single_Sign-On_for_Desktop_and_Mobile_Applications_using_SAML_and_OAuth
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi sweet dreams
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KevinMarks_ and here's the google equivalent: https://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/Overlap
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KevinMarks_ in other words, complicated
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pdurbin aaronpk: at least for higher ed in the US, there's InCommon, where institutions trust other member institutions: https://incommon.org ... I'm just learning about it though... fuzzy on the details... but I've been asked "Is your Service Provider already registered with InCommon?"
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aaronpk wow fascinating
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XgF aaronpk: Bridging OAuth and SAML is one of the reasons why OAuth 2.0 is a bajillion specs and incomprehensible
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KevinMarks_ yep
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk yeah
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KevinMarks_ and then there's SCIM
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XgF Theres OAuth 2.0 + Bearer tokens (like OAuth 1.1 but simpler)
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XgF OAuth 2.0 + HMAC (Pretty much OAuth 1.1)
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XgF OAuth 2.0 + SAML (Enterprisey!)
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XgF OAuth 2.0 + JWT ("We reinvented SAML in JSON because we want to sell you our software again")
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aaronpk oh is JWT similar to SAML?
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XgF That was the whole impeutus
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aaronpk oh good
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XgF JWT is how you sign an assertion. SAML is how you sign an assertion
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XgF Of course the whole JOSE committee are a bunch of retards
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XgF (Hey, we're designing a spec in the 21st century! Of course mandate support for RSA with PKCS#1v1.5 padding, that hasn't been broken for OVER A DECADE!)
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KevinMarks_ "However, as a rich and highly extensible framework with many optional components, on its own, this specification is likely to produce a wide range of non-interoperable implementations."
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KevinMarks_ thanks OAuth 2 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749#section-1.8
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk that was one of Eran Hammer's last edits to that document
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XgF The sensible members of the IETF basically said we're not publishing it unless you rename it a framework and point out that everybody's version of OAuth 2 is different
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aaronpk I laughed a lot when I saw him add that
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aaronpk yep
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XgF In reality OAuth 2 is pretty simple, it's just unfortunately defined in about 5 times as many specifications as is actually necessary
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bret Is there some sort of Oauth2.thegoodparts? A subset of Oauth 2 that is deemed tasteful?
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bret or is that what oz was trying to do?
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XgF OAuth 2 Bearer Profile is pretty simple. OAuth 2 with HMAC is as secure as OAuth 1.1. Both are good
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XgF Unfortunately, you've gotta piece things together over 3(?) specifications for each of them
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XgF I wish somebody would build an "OAuth 2.0 Basic Web /Protocol/" which takes those three and packages them together as a replacement from 1.1
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KevinMarks_ isn't that what's happening de facto?
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XgF Well Bearer is what the webby people are going to use anyway
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XgF (Bearer over TLS, HMAC over HTTP)
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pdurbin Eran Hammer... the author of this post I was just looking at: http://hueniverse.com/2012/07/oauth-2-0-and-the-road-to-hell/
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tantek brianloveswords there are no good books on the subject of federated networks because there are no good federated networks. yet. email may have had a glimmer but it being crushed under overwhelming spam and will die as a result.
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tantek there are many aspirational posts about federated social networks (such as the one hadleybeeman pointed out) but few and far between are actual good posts about them. here is a list of a few: http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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tantek perhaps this would be a good FAQ
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@brianloveswords @thisandagain http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb is a great list! (twitter.com/_/status/400085722491019264)
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Jihaisse Hello
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+30) "w3c irc page" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Email (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+641) "Any books or posts on federated networks" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /FAQ (+0) "/* Any books or posts on federated networks */ typos" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /FAQ (+4) "/* Any books or posts on federated networks */ linky" (view diff)
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@pfefferle @haschek und das macht das #indieweb eben sehr gut http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Kinds_of_Posts es definiert beispiele und produziert funktionierenden code (twitter.com/_/status/400214718104616961)
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@pfefferle @haschek hier ein paar systeme http://idno.co https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention https://github.com/sandeepshetty/converspace (twitter.com/_/status/400222740927365120)
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@pfefferle @haschek und hier ein rsvp über pingback http://tantek.com/2013/176/t2/first-federated-indieweb-event-rsvp-implementations und hier likes http://www.sandeep.io/39 (twitter.com/_/status/400222972117409792)
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@haschek @pfefferle Coverspace scheint tot, Repo leer, Link tot. Webmention und die RSVP party gingen auch durch die FSW/RWW-Comm., Danke für Idno. (twitter.com/_/status/400228444211904512)
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@haschek @pfefferle Ich mag das #IndieWeb auch, 2 Apps von mir gehen auch in die Richtung #PESOS: #Foafpress und #PubwichFork (keine Archivierung) (twitter.com/_/status/400229204551143424)
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Jihaisse pfefferle: hello, Have you get the time to have a look at the plugin ?
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pfefferle Jihaisse I had, but it's very confusing with all the nested "if"s
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pfefferle the wordpress stuff is looking fine and the rest seems working ;)
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Jihaisse pfefferle: yeah, the code in the "Social" part of the plugin, is directly copy/pasted from the Social plugin
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Jihaisse I started by thinking : "this works, don't change it"
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pfefferle should be ok though ;)
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Jihaisse ok, do you think it would be easy to add another plugin ?
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Jihaisse pfefferle: btw, do you make POSSE on your wordpress ?
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pfefferle I had a look at the Jetpack plugin, but I couldn't find the ids of twitter or facebook, seems that they don't save it.
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pfefferle yes, I use JetPack
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Jihaisse ok
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Jihaisse there is nothing in the DB ?
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pfefferle Jihaisse no
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Jihaisse too bad
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@ozten New Blog Post: A Sketch of NobleWeb http://ozten.com/psto/2013/11/12/a-sketch-of-nobleweb/ /cc @indiewebcamp @FreedomBoxFndn #MozillaSummit (twitter.com/_/status/400294395934560256)
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aaronpk ozten: nice
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ozten aaronpk: Sitting in draft folder for too long
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aaronpk ah yeah
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ozten but I haven't been hacking on anything concretely
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ozten so I guess putting the perspective out there is better than nothing
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aaronpk it is
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ozten and I hope to start prototying some of the flows
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aaronpk that would be cool
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barnabywalters ozten: nice post!
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barnabywalters did you see GDS? http://decentralize.it/
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barnabywalters another consumer-oriented OS concept
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ozten barnabywalters: No, I just got that reference an hour ago in #identity (mozilla)
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ozten I look forward to checking it out
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ozten thanks for the reference
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@momowilly Help bring back @ReaganGomez's webseries 'Almost Home Season 2' http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/almost-home-season-2/cstw/368172 #indiegogo #indieweb #indiefilm #womendirectors (twitter.com/_/status/400296536539541504)
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barnabywalters looks like they’re making a loooong feature list https://github.com/grand-decentral-station/concept/tree/master/concept
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@ReaganGomez RT @momowilly: Help bring back @ReaganGomez's webseries 'Almost Home Season 2' http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/almost-home-season-2/cstw/368172 #indiegogo #indieweb #indiefilm #wome… (twitter.com/_/status/400296944599199744)
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tantek ozten - cool. love the brainstorming out loud. looking forward to seeing how you take steps toward your vision with your own online presence :)
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ozten tantek: email would be a big checkmark - I already host quite a bit of me
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ozten but, ya… get crack
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tantek barnabywalters - what is that?
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Loqi that is deemed tasteful
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ozten crack'n :)
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barnabywalters tantek: GDS? another consumer-oriented server OS concept
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tantek barnabywalters - there doesn't seem to be anything consumer-oriented. all the docs seem developer-oriented.
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barnabywalters yeah, very much so.
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tantek so it's a lot of blue sky and no actual building then?
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barnabywalters yes
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tantek well at least people are showing a desire to solve the problem(s)
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tantek maybe they'll eventually be frustrated with lack of progress and come around to shipping something simple/minimal on their own site.
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aaronpk that does seem to be a theme
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@PoliticalJones RT @momowilly: Help bring back @ReaganGomez's webseries 'Almost Home Season 2' http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/almost-home-season-2/cstw/368172 #indiegogo #indieweb #indiefilm #wome… (twitter.com/_/status/400298195571728384)
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tantek aaronpk, choosing what to minimally build and build it is hard. I'm hoping that /Getting_Started and /IndieMark help with that.
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tantek and deploying something minimal and incomplete on your own site is scary. I'm hoping all the "IndieWeb examples" sections on all the building blocks help with that by showing that it's ok to be awkward and incremental.
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tantek it's so much easier and safer to simply brainstorm APIs.
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aaronpk :)
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tantek and wishlists
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tommorris awkward and incremental is the only way to be. perfection requires time. time otherwise taken by having a job and a long commute. ;)
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tommorris back in the old days of Wikipedia there was a guideline called "leave something undone" - still sort of documented here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Make_omissions_explicit
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tantek it's a good collaborative principle
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tommorris if someone comes to my site and says "this sucks, I can build something better", we win. :)
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barnabywalters kinda like how discussions based on facts tend towards better facts, discussions based on opinion tend towards shouting
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barnabywalters how does one tell whether or not the name of a h-entry should be shown in addition to it’s content?
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barnabywalters e.g. for an article, the name will be short and different from the content, and expected to be shown
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barnabywalters whereas for a note, the name is either the content, or a substring of the content
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barnabywalters and is not expected to be shown
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barnabywalters at the moment I’m just comparing the name to the plaintext value of the content, but that doesn’t always work for various reasons
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aaronpk good question! i wonder that too
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barnabywalters e.g. different whitespace collapsing, JS in note name but not content (in the case of idno checkins)
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barnabywalters just seeing whether or not the name is *shorter* than the content will work, given some constraints…
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barnabywalters 1) that the name is not a truncated version of the content (which I’m pretty sure noone is doing at the mo)
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barnabywalters 2) that the implied name doesn’t have a bunch of js in, e.g. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ferinjo.is%2Fview%2F527d4a7fbed7de8775afccea
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barnabywalters oops, I take that back, the content *does* have the js in in that case
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KevinMarks YouTube changes encouraging indieweb thoughts http://vihart.com/google-youtube-integration-kind-of-like-twilight-except-in-this-version-when-cullen-drinks-bellatubes-blood-they-both-become-mortal-but-cullen-is-still-an-abusive-creep-also-it-is-still-bad/
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tantek KevinMarks: "…moving discussion of my videos to reddit instead"
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tantek so she's talking about moving to a comments silo, rather than indieweb
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tantek or did I miss something?
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KevinMarks She's moving her posts and videos to her own site. We should help her with comments
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aaronpk oh I saw her talk at xoxo!
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XgF barnabywalters: I find the existing delivery of notes unsatisfying. IMO they should be marked up /without/ title
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barnabywalters unsatisfying? how so?
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XgF Because it often includes a title which is just a duplicate of the content
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tantek barnabywalters - the simple algorithm is if the name of the note is the same as the content, don't show the title
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barnabywalters mf2 structures always have name properties due to implied parsing. better that it’s explicitly defined by the author than left to whatever the innertext of the root mf element is
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barnabywalters tantek: in theory that works, in practise it isn’t
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aaronpk tantek: thats the problem, determining whether they are the same
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tantek you can add to that: if the name of the note ends with an ellipsis (… or … (unicode)) then drop the ellipsis and if the result is a prefix for the content, then don't show the name
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barnabywalters probably because of whitespace collapsing inconsistencies in the parser
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barnabywalters but that can be normalised by the consuming code anyway
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tantek barnabywalters - alright, that sounds like a challenge to write up the algorithm and start collecting issues based on real world examples
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XgF barnabywalters: Then I'd say MF2 is buggy
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barnabywalters so I’ll try improving my implementation until I’m happy with it, then draft an algorithm based on that
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barnabywalters XgF: implied name parsing has many significant benefits
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XgF Such as?
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barnabywalters <span class="h-card">Barnaby Walters</span>
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barnabywalters instead of the longer version which I can’t be bothered to type
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barnabywalters also, ensuring that all mf structures have *some* textual representation to help identify them e.g. in lists
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XgF Perhaps the appropriate thing to say is that "For objects of type note the name may (should?) be ignored by recieving applications"
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tantek XgF - http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#simple_microformats_2_examples
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barnabywalters there is no note type, unless you could h-as-note
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barnabywalters everything’s just an h-entry
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XgF As someone who deals a lot with ActivityStreams its' easy to forget what MF2 is missing...
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barnabywalters s/could/count
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tantek XgF - how do you deal "a lot with ActivityStreams"? they seem to have nearly no adoption on the public web.
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tantek (and have numerous issues of being overdesigned, see: http://indiewebcamp.com/activitystreams#Issues )
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@g_m_dunn #goldencheetah 3.0 up and controlling the #computrainer on Ubuntu 13.10, @TheSufferfest #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/400314588899454976)
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tantek.com edited /note (+983) "add note display and note type algorithm for starters" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - here's a start: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm
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barnabywalters reads
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tantek I'd be interested in seeing what exceptions you've found to that
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tantek as when I last looked at this problem and even wrote a little code - those two cases handled it no problem
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tantek maybe the trim() was taking care of the whitespace differences you are seeing
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tantek but if so maybe we need to better specify whitespace handling (I thought we had)
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tantek (in uf2)
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tantek.com edited /note (-1) "/* Note Type Algorithm */ of" (view diff)
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aaronpk I think whitespace is still a problem. not sure if the problem is in the source markup or the parsing though.
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aaronpk and if in the source, then there's an issue with authors not wanting to change the markup to support a better parsed result
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barnabywalters the question is should the parser collapse whitespace?
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aaronpk certainly not if it's inside a <pre> tag... and then there's the CSS issue
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barnabywalters yeah
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barnabywalters that’s the difficulty
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barnabywalters it’s also throwing away information which the consumer of the parsed version can trivially remove, but impossible to put back in
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tantek it's usually worked out better for whitespace to *not* be collapsed at parsing time
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tantek right
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tantek I guess let's see some real world examples that don't work in that algorithm and we'll figure it out from those
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barnabywalters so maybe add a whitespace collapsing stage to the “is it a note” algorithm
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barnabywalters tantek: I’ll see if I can find some
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tantek I haven't seen a need for it except in before/after space which trim() takes care of
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barnabywalters so here’s an example: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io%2F2013%2Flately-ive-been-thinking-that-the-key-to-happiness-might-be-embracing-the-void-knowing-that-we-are-all-but-a-blip-that-nothing-we-do-leaves-
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barnabywalters where whitespace is collapsed in the name but not the content, interestingly
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barnabywalters that might be a parsing bug
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barnabywalters I might be using the nodeValue when I should be using textContent or some such nonsense
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XgF tantek: So these days there's selfdogfooding (a bunch of people on the activitystreams list are pump.io developers, for example)
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XgF clients (see every pump.io client, pump.io itself...), the predefined object types/verbs aren't a problem (in fact they're useful),
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@kevinmarks "@waxpancake: @gary_hustwit on the long-term benefits of self-publishing your own work directly to fans. http://t.co/LezUMtpkfN" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/400318854888292352)
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KevinMarks If you use an HTML5 parser, isn't whitespace collapsed as part of the spec? Maybe need test cases
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barnabywalters uses PHP DOMDocument and doesn’t trust it to follow any spec
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: if whitespace is collapsed by default, how does white-space: pre work?
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KevinMarks Good point. Clearly I need to make test cases for http://indiewebcamp.com/note#White_space
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tantek KevinMarks - it's not collapsed by default
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tantek or rather - only collapsed in very minimal ways (e.g. before/after tags, sometimes)
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tantek barnabywalters - ah, line breaks
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KevinMarks I'm still haunted by evil white space that you can type in windows but is invalid utf8
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tantek ok that should be easy to deal with, let's treat a line break in the content as termination and see if it is a prefix of the name
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tantek oh wait
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tantek this looks like a parsing bug
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tantek because the same node text is being used in both cases
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tantek <div class="e-content entry-content"><div class=""><p class="p-name">
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tantek barnabywalters the p-name and the e-content's .value key should be identical - why are they different?
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tantek in http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io%2F2013%2Flately-ive-been-thinking-that-the-key-to-happiness-might-be-embracing-the-void-knowing-that-we-are-all-but-a-blip-that-nothing-we-do-leaves-
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tantek they should probably both preserve the internal whitespace
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tantek using the nodeValue
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@kevinmarks "@juliepagano: I put up a post about some of what I did for my site redesign. http://juliepagano.com/blog/2013/11/10/site-redesign-using-middleman/ /cc @shawnacscott @KuraFire" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/400331728226496512)
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tantek this: " It didn’t seem worthwhile to spend a lot of time learning how to configure it correctly and create a complex theme, when what I really wanted to do was quickly manage my design and focus on writing. Enter static site generators."
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tantek XgF - have any of those supposed activitystreams selfdogfooders bothered to update the AS wiki pages accordingly? and if it's all pump.io - that sounds almost like an implementation specific technology.
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XgF tantek: There are other people using AS, but Pump is the only big "public" deployment
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tantek XgF - then why isn't it documented on the AS wiki?
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XgF The wiki pages are a bit tumbleweedy, mostly because what needs saying gets said in the specs
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tantek I guess I'm not taking your word for it in IRC
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tantek well - lack of documentation of implementations is a problem
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tantek it indicates insufficient critical mass / community IMO
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tantek the specs themselves are bit of a tldr mess
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tantek that would benefit from broken into a modular set of minimal pages on the wiki
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XgF The JSON serialization spec (the "core spec") is pretty simple (and can easily be grokked in a single reading). The base schema spec could do with better organization, yes
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XgF I'll investigate that (though I need to find out whats happening ATM
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XgF there was talk of the W3C wanting to adopt ActivityStreams as an official workgroup)
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snarfed to be fair, the google+ API's data format could arguably count as AS too
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snarfed but it is tweaked, and it's only the data model, not any of the API itself, and the API is extremely limited…so it's not much
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tantek XgF - the talk at the osfw3c meetup in August was a bit of a disaster
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tantek the Google schema folks were called out for bullying changes in ActivityStreams
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tantek and meanwhile the JSON-LD folks were pressuring the AS folks into adopting JSON-LD
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tantek it had all the makings of a bureaucratic trainwreck
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tantek snarfed- yeah - Google+ API's data model is a conceptual fork of AS
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tantek some reuse of ideas
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snarfed yup. more than just ideas
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snarfed most of the core properties, enum values, etc are the same
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snarfed they add extra stuff, but they don't mess too much with the AS base, so it seems like most code is interoperable with only minimal changes
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snarfed regardless, it's academic since we don't work much with AS here
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snarfed …i do have AS to mf2 json/html conversion code, though, so i'll be able to use that for google+. https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/microformats2.py
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tantek G+ has been very hard to interoperate with in any capacity
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tantek interesting
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tantek so perhaps we can subscribe to people who post on G+ via h-entry?
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tantek.com edited /WordPress (+1354) "add Switching away from section with examples of another project, including statis site egnerators" (view diff)
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XgF tantek: Yeah, being pulled from both directions
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tantek XgF - it was depressing to watch :(
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XgF To be fair w.r.t. JSON-LD, the initial starting point for "AS 2.0" was to build it as a profile of JSON-LD
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tantek JSON-LD is a massive distraction for anyone who wants to ship/iterate/interoperate ASAP
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tantek because the crowd behind JSON-LD do not actually ship/iterate/interoperate on their own projects/sites with it.
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tantek paying attention to JSON-LD is not technical nor practical, only political
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XgF Theres certainly /utility/ there. You could within about ~25 lines build a JSON-LD context which would map ActivityStreams JSON to "ActivityStreams RDF"... but yeah, I want to avoid the Schema.org quagmire
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XgF schema.org is an unmitigated mess
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tantek indeed, that we can agree on
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XgF [FWIW, I quite like RDF as a data model. It's certainly easier to work with as a "database storage format" than JSON in some ways)
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tantek from original poor design to grab bag additions - schema is bloating up as a maldesigned mess
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tantek XgF - have you met tommorris?
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XgF I don't think so
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tantek he too has some appreciation for RDF
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tantek FWIW, mapping to "ActivityStreams RDF" is not really "utility". that's just mapping between things that have no innate utility themselves
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tantek interesting about your perspective/experience that " RDF as a data model. It's certainly easier to work with as a "database storage format" than JSON in some ways"
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tantek that's the exception in my experience
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XgF RDF (or other "object oriented" style) databases become easier the minute you start having cyclic graphs :-)
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tantek so either you've figured out something clever about RDF, or are making JSON harder than it should be
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aaronpk this is basically an argument against pure JSON as a data store http://www.sarahmei.com/blog/2013/11/11/why-you-should-never-use-mongodb/ Possibly related?
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XgF aaronpk: Pretty much
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aaronpk XgF: cool, do you know of a simple example like that of using RDF as a data store?
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XgF Not sure if there are any deployed projects out there. I was having a bit of a play with Python + Pyramid + RDFLib + a custom "ORM".
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XgF From my experience with ZODB, it's pretty much as nice to use (but matches the data structure better if all your data is identified by URI)
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amz3 XgF what do you mean by “become easier the minute you start having cyclic graphs”
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XgF Using ActivityStreams as an example, a comment is inReplyTo its' parent post, and the comment should be in parentPost.replies
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tantek aaronpk - that seems more like an argument against denormalization rather than JSON
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aaronpk kind of
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tantek using URLs for references to people, posts etc. seems to get around that problem
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XgF Document stores tend not to be ACID, so don't do normalization too well
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tantek sticking all the data as strings inline in every instance seems to be the problem
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amz3 XgF I know what cyclic graphs, I don't understand the first part of the statement «RDF database become easier», why do you mean by easier? Since they handle ACID acrod entities, it makes things easier?
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amz3 s/why/what
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Loqi amz3 meant to say: XgF I know what cyclic graphs, I don't understand the first part of the statement «RDF database become easier», what do you mean by easier? Since they handle ACID acrod entities, it makes things easier?
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amz3 s/acrod/across
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tantek btw XgF - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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XgF RDF becomes easier to work with than JSON because your ORM can do the lookups for you
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XgF tantek: Will do as soon as I unbreak my rel=me auth :-)
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tantek XgF - unbreaking your rel=me auth is easier than any RDF :)
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amz3 I never understood the value that brings a RDF datastore, except the RDF query languages that I never studied deeply but seemed very cryptic and difficult to learn, not very scientific, yet I prefer graph databases
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XgF tantek: I finally got sick of Wordpress and MySQL, so my website is now (provisionally) migrated to idno. I haven't yet figured out what benwerd did to get his profile on /...
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XgF amz3: The single biggest benefit (IMO) is the distinction between strings and links
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XgF I half suspect it's just something trivial like "rewrite / /profile/name/;"
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owenshepherd.net edited /IRC_People (+50) (view diff)
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owenshepherd.net created /User:Owenshepherd.net (+179) "Created page with "[http://owenshepherd.net OwenShepherd.net]" (view diff)
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Loqi powered by [[idno]]. [[POSSE]] to [[Twitter]]
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Loqi hopefully soon to [[pump.io]], looking towards implementing full integration given time."
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@indieboxproject @ozten's NobleWeb sketch: a great to-do list for where @IndieBoxProject should go. http://indieboxproject.org/blog/2013/11/nobleweb-a-great-to-do-list-for-where-indiebox-should-go/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/400378047167086592)
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@ozten RT @indieboxproject: @ozten's NobleWeb sketch: a great to-do list for where @IndieBoxProject should go. http://indieboxproject.org/blog/2013/11/nobleweb-a-great-to-do-list-for-where-indiebox-should-go/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/400389302586073088)
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bret aaronpk: interesting article about mongo
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bret also RE osfw3c, that was quite a scene to watch unfold. I'll attest to the accuracy of tantek's description
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bret ++tantek
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bret aaronpk: are you going to be at http://calagator.org/events/1250465193 ?
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Loqi MaptimePDX Hack Night on Wednesday, Nov 13, 6:00pm at Esri R&D Center (aka Geoloqi HQ)
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tantek bret, bullies really don't like to be called out as such.
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tantek aaronpk, some similar thoughts to your quantified self article: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/11/quantified_self_self_tracking_data_we_need_a_right_to_use_it.html
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bret also ozten i like your noble web ideas! that was a good read too
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bret ozten++
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Loqi ozten has 2 karma
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bret and tantek++ fixing the above attempt
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bret ack
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bret ill get it later
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aaronpk tantek: oh cool, she was at the QS meetup when I wrote that article, we talked for a bit!
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tantek aaronpk - great!
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bret I'm starting to eye http://docpad.org/ as a next step for my site, but part of me wants to do it from scratch to avoid not fully understanding someone elses project
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aaronpk lots of people interested in this comment thread too https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6718422
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ozten bret: right on
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