#indiewebcamp 2013-12-03

2013-12-03 UTC
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metafluff.com edited /events/2013-12-04-homebrew-website-club (+88) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+944) "/* event posts */ perhaps use color of map point as indicator of temporal relativity to event" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+108) "/* event posts */ link to docs for more possibilities" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+172) "/* event posts */ note decision not to use nominatim" (view diff)
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 16 minutes ago: but these criticisms are coming from those who were in the community, that's the difference, that's what's new.
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bnvk man, Loqi message later feature is awesome!
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Loqi who, me?
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bnvk yes
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KartikPrabhu anyone know how to make form fields always show right aligned text? For example: I am using an input element to display permalinks to my posts. But the input field is small and so the url always appears with the site name, with the post name hidden to the right. UX-wise, it might be better if the end of the url i.e. the post name was visible with the site name hidden on the left. Any suggestions? See example here at the bo
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tantek KartikPrabhu your message was cut-off after "here at the bo"
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KartikPrabhu See example here at the bottom of article: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/line-mode#permalink
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aaronpk oh I see... I don't think that's possible
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aaronpk i know what you mean though
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it can be done with text-align, but as soon as an input field loses focus it is back to left align :(
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aaronpk hah here's a good hack: http://jsbin.com/ilejo4
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etymancer could you maybe do something funky with right-to-left text?
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aaronpk yep that's what it looks like
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KartikPrabhu then the entire url will read backwarss
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etymancer not if you reverse the text :)
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aaronpk not according to that example
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: huh, just fyi, i don't see that losing focus bug in firefox
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snarfed you're on chrome?
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah i am on Chrome.
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: yeah add "direction: rtl" on your input box and it totally works
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aaronpk i just tried it on your site
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KartikPrabhu really!
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etymancer nice. don't even need to monkey with the text
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aaronpk found here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4973500/right-align-text-in-html-input-field
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KartikPrabhu on it. will test it out and report
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snarfed i don't see the bug in chrome either. 31 on mac os x, and ff 25. just fyi
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KartikPrabhu thanks folks!
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etymancer I like this channel.
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aaronpk aww this channel likes you too
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: direction:rtl works! except on Opera Mini for Android, losing focus reverts to ltr
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aaronpk nice
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KevinMarks_ is this a victory for indieweb principles? http://antirez.com/news/65
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snarfed i think mainly just a victory for google cache
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snarfed e.g. if you managed to blow away a bunch of your tweets, you could probably recover them the same way
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snarfed …ok, twitter is a bad example, but still.
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tantek KevinMarks - hilarious. I think we've seen examples of "recovery from Google search cache backup" before. Not always entirely successful.
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tantek snarfed - indeed (on both counts).
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KevinMarks_ I remember helping people recover from deletion at technorati
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tantek that's because we were more comprehensive about specific blogs (at least their contents)
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tantek when we should have been archiving their entire HTML permalinks
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tantek and CCing that to archive.org
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tantek :/
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KevinMarks_ yes, that was an antipattern we never fixed
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tantek.com edited /icon (+472) "/* Tumblr */ note UA-sniffing, sample code that Tumblr uses" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks, the irony is that it would have been *simpler* to just archive the curled permalink pages
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tantek and would have enabled reparsing them later too (when parser/spider improvements were made)
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tantek why we chose to store the parsed text and not the raw HTML I'll never know. Some attempt at premature optimization
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KevinMarks_ I know. And in fact I did that by hand for my testing...
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tantek maybe by the same person who insisted we should not index Twitter
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KevinMarks_ 'cos we were already db-focused by the time I joined (and dave wasn't even keeping posts, just links and 255 chars around them)
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tantek oh right - we initially threw away even more
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tantek hard to break that db-focused culture isn't it?
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KevinMarks_ we initially only kept the latest link between any two sites
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KevinMarks_ yes, that was the bit I found odd about the "oh crap I used mongo" post
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tantek anybody else get home screen icons working on their personal site?
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bret Does it have to be a picture of my face?
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bret derp nm
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bret tantek: during your icon research did you see this? http://realfavicongenerator.net/
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tantek bret - it's a should not a must ;) and you've got your face on your Twitter avatar https://twitter.com/bretolius so why settle for anything less for your own domain?
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tantek bret - I hadn't seen it and their validator is wrong ;)
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tantek oh man so many error
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tantek (s)
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tantek ;)
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tantek wow seriously what a piece of crap
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tantek bret - so no, during my research I didn't find it and it's a horribly misleading resource :(
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pdurbin http://redecentralize.org/interviews/2013/11/26/09-daniel-tent.html was pretty good
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bret benwerd: having issues sendin webmentions to your post
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bret tantek: didn't try the validator, that sucks
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tantek pdurbin - there's something missing from that page - a personal domain / URL for Daniel Siders
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tantek.com edited /icon (+514) "/* Tumblr */ document Tumblr shortcut icon problems" (view diff)
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tantek oh Tumblr, you were so close to doing a decent default job with personal icons
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what happened?
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tantek.com edited /icon (+164) "/* Silo Support */ Tumblr's awkward shortcut icon treatment reason enough to DIY" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: documented tested results here: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Tumblr_shortcut_icon_problems
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KartikPrabhu interesting. maybe it detects device in weird way on server-side?
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KartikPrabhu i know it does that for mobile vs desktop clients
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tantek it has a iOS UA sniffer at least - and only sends the markup for iOS when it sees it (noted in prev section)
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tantek but it's out of date / obsolete
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tantek part of the problem of doing UA specific coding
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KartikPrabhu naybe some Tumblr dev is hanging around here and fixes it :)
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tantek I wouldn't hold my breath - since they've been acquired by Yahoo.
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KartikPrabhu oh zing!
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KartikPrabhu maybe the indieweb way will catch on. in any case Tumblr is doing much better than other silos, i guess
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tantek it is. Tumblr has *many* redeeming design aspects.
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tantek in fact there is much we can learn from Tumblr's UI design.
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tantek everything from on-boarding to setting up your domain to editing your templates
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KartikPrabhu intersting. must take closer look at tumblr when free
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KartikPrabhu was looking at POSSE. Is there a good way to syndicate art-directed posts? most syndications would destroy any custom styles
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KartikPrabhu i use 'art-directed' loosely
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tantek KartikPrabhu - all POSSE is silo destination dependent
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tantek and thus there's quite a bit of room for silo-specific "art-direction" ;)
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tantek but inevitably, expect that the silo POSSE copy will be lower fidelity than what you can do on your own site
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tantek however that's a *feature* - it encourages readers on that silo to click through and view the high fidelity original on your own site
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KartikPrabhu yes. but I suspect it would be a problem with feed syndication too. sort of throws a wrench in the whole 'readers should read whereever they want' philosophy
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tantek that's misphrasing
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tantek it's not "readers *should* read whereever"
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KartikPrabhu yes. i meant ' should be able to'
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tantek it's readers DO read whereever they want
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tantek and thus if they're your friends, it's only polite to accommodate them, rather than make them read some other way
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KartikPrabhu but most people would prefer to get all their internet at one place, be it a feed reader or Google+ or such. Is it a good idea to direct them back to to your site for 'the best experience'?
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tantek rather it's good for you to express yourself as richly as you wish to, and not limit yourself by what silos allow
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tantek POSSE is the compromise to at least give your friends something where they happen to read things.
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KartikPrabhu ok. more food for thought. cool!
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tantek and yes - I personally think it's only ok to direct them back to your site when there's more content there
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tantek hence permashortlinks vs permashortids
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KartikPrabhu too much food for thought from this place. not enough time!! ;)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - it is you that is asking the good questions ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I don't get the difference between permashortlinks and permashortids. Maybe a page on the wiki for that?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - did you search for them on the wiki?;)
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tantek.com created /permashortids (+32) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /permashortid (+32) "r" (view diff)
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tantek ah - I meant permashortcitations - will add AKA
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KartikPrabhu aah yes i didn't know that term either :P
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tantek.com edited /permashortcitation (+127) "or permashortid, in contrast to permashortlinks" (view diff)
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tantek this is a good place to start on the topic: http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortlinks
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KartikPrabhu great. good midnight reading instead of a physics paper! :)
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tantek then http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation :)
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tantek.com created /permashortlink (+39) "r" (view diff)
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christopheducamp.com created /icon-fr (+15506) "[fr: french translation draft]" (view diff)
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tantek nice work xtof!
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christopheducamp.com edited /icon-fr (+19) "/* Firefox pour Android */ bookmark for FF : "Marque-page" in french." (view diff)
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cweiske http://blog.superfeedr.com/state-of-readers/#comment-829280328
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tantek wow that's both sad and hilarious
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tantek RSS was/is so poor a standard that it motivated dozens of people to develop the alternative of Atom
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tantek similarly, any apologisms for Media RSS are misplace - also a poor standard from the start, and poor stewardship as well
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cweiske I tend to believe the internet tv players vs. rss theory
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tantek ultimately - all of these problems are just facets of the weakness that is combination of DRY violation and invisible side files that are always eventually neglected relative to HTML
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tantek RSS was weak to begin with. It didn't take much for attack it.
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tantek IMO totally ignorable drama
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cweiske tantek, how do you expect full text feeds to work in hatom?
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cweiske have index pages with the full text of 10 articles?
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tantek why ask how I expect them to work? just look at my home page for existence proof.
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cweiske or do you expect the clients to parse the index page and follow each entry?
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cweiske fetching 11 urls instead of 1?
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tantek my full text "feed" or h-feed of my index.html file takes *less space in bytes* than the equivalent in Atom XML
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tantek all the work on XML sidefiles duplicates of what works *just fine* in HTML has wasted 10+ years of web dev time
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cweiske it's still harder to parse
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cweiske I need a full library just to figure out the title
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cweiske or the author
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tantek then you're ignoring Amdahl's law for your own productivity, as is *anyone* who complains about parsing
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tantek building good UX is 10x more important and 10x harder than parsing any of this stuff
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tantek anyone who's wasting time arguing about easier/harder to parser is basically ignorant of that
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tantek plus, yes, you need a whole library to parse RSS soup as well.
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cweiske if you use rss, yes
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cweiske atom - no
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tantek the whole XML makes the world valid pipe-dream was always wishful thinking
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tantek wishful thinking by programmers that don't understand the messiness of successful systems
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cweiske then why webmention? pingback works, you only need a library to use it
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tantek also, nevermind UX, all such parsing discussions are trumped by higher fidelity content you get by not violating DRY
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tantek higher fidelity content > perception of easier parsing
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cweiske does "DRY" mean that the content is only available in one format, or only in one location?
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+834) "/* FAQ */ Why webmention instead of pingback (good to answer this up front for folks that are already familiar with pingback)" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske - both kinds of DRY violation are possible
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cweiske isn't a your homepage index such a violation?
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tantek re: "why webmention? pingback works" - wrote it up because despite it being obvious, others will likely re-ask this again: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Why_webmention_instead_of_pingback
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cweiske tantek, "Less work to implement" - I can say the same against hfeed
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cweiske and for atom
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cweiske dito for "easier to test"
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tantek nah. h-feed was trivial to add to HTML.
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tantek producing Atom was a pain
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cweiske I mean implementation - parsing it
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tantek hahaha that's funny. you're either new at this, or trolling. optimizing for publishers over consumers has been a long-standing obvious design principle.
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tantek (more optimal in the aggregate, number of people etc.)
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cweiske so consuming should be hard?
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tantek given the choice, make publishing easier
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tantek because that benefits more people, short and long term
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cweiske there are much more consumers than publishers, so it should be the other way round
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tantek nope
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tantek there are far fewer programmers that write consumers rather than publishers
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tantek "consumer" in this context refers to the code for consuming
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tantek not "consumer" a person who consumes
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tantek publishers over parsers if that helps
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tantek regarding the varieties of DRY violation - the API page documents those problems quite well: http://indiewebcamp.com/API
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cweiske moving your idea to the real world, newspapers aren't necessary if i can look at the raw data
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tantek nope, newspapers are better UX than raw data and if you read up, that was the first thing I pointed out - UX matters orders of magnitude more than all the nits you're trying to pick
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tantek and thus you're violating amdahl's law by focusing so much time on optimizing such a minor % of the work of making something work
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cweiske the work the parsers have to do is per-user, not per-parser. thus it is important that it's easy to consume
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tantek parser code re-use is far higher than publisher code re-use
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tantek a few folks write parsers, and you're done
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cweiske I don't talk about writing
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cweiske I talk about CPU time
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tantek people keep writing new publishing code all the time
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tantek then you're again focusing on the wrong thing
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tantek human code writing time is far more a big cost / obstacle than CPU time
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tantek another Amdahl's law violation
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cweiske how is this related to amdahl's law?
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cweiske that only talks about parallelization
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tantek Amdahl's law is about time spent optimizing something vs time that thing spends as a % of the total
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tantek "maximum expected improvement to an overall system when only part of the system is improved"
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tantek has nothing to do with parallelization
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
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tantek or rather parallelization is just one optimization strategy
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tantek another would be using a better algorithm
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tantek parallelization is a red herring in discussions of Amdahl's law
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KartikPrabhu interesting discussion/debate on RSS. The publisher over parser philosophy seems to be the common theme through the indieweb ideas
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Jihaisse Hello
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@matteoc Indieweb principles http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2013/12/indieweb-principles/ (twitter.com/_/status/407782394184613888)
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KevinMarks I'd argue that there is an indieweb aspect to the proliferation of readers and publishers of rss that that article documents to some extent, but that it was always hugely imperfect
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tantek KevinMarks - looks like you're still using apple-touch-icon rather than apple-touch-icon-precomposed on kevinmarks.com (see http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#iOS_home_screen for why *-precomposed)
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barnabywalters has anyone here tried http://www.urbit.org/?
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barnabywalters tricky to tell whether it’s a joke or some sort of bizarre artwork
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aaronpk LOL at the first comment on that comment cweiske linked to: "Would you please post this an complete page of its own on a blog somewhere. It's an excellent analysis/commentary on the situation."
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snarfed aaronpk: yup, gotta love generic comment spam. endlessly entertaining
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aaronpk oh you think that's spam?
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aaronpk I thought it made an excellent point about owning your comments!
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barnabywalters pretty sure that’s not spam
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barnabywalters most comment spam is “yes i really like your blog it has good informations please continue to post”
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barnabywalters or “buy this handbag“
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snarfed yeah, you're probably right
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snarfed my spam detector has overfitted on generic "this is a good post" comments
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aaronpk oh good lord. there was a bug with my dropbox->flickr sync, and now the same photo has been added to my flickr account hundreds of times
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snarfed whee, computers
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aaronpk i'm gonna have to write a script to delete them, I can't do that bby hand!
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XgF aaronpk: I once posted a Facebook album to a group. Facebook decided to post each image in the album individually...
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aaronpk XgF: haha awesome
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Loqi hehe
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XgF Everybody woke up the next morning with 120 Facebook notifications...
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@IndieAuthorALLI Join @OrnaRoss and @JaneFriedman shortly for a G+ hangout on making money from #writing & #publishing. http://t.co/bb5agjDR5c. Pls RT (twitter.com/_/status/407933592728535042)
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@TriskeleBooks RT @IndieAuthorALLI: Join @OrnaRoss and @JaneFriedman shortly for a G+ hangout on making money from #writing & #publishing. http://t.co/bb… (twitter.com/_/status/407934241054670849)
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@secretmildred @xz http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Twitter basically post from your domain to twitter via API, then post the data to your db. I also imported my archive. (twitter.com/_/status/407946512539611136)
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KartikPrabhu I have a screenshot testing homescreen icons on android with FF and Chrome. How do I upload it to the wiki so people?
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kartikprabhu.com uploaded /File:Homescreen_icons.jpg "screenshot showing Indieweb home screen icons. Android4.3 on HTC ONE. Firefox on left, Chrome on the right."
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: Firefox does not seem to add a frame on my Android. see: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:Homescreen_icons.jpg
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tantek cool - just noticed the icon for indiewebcamp.com :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: FF on Android uses a low-res version of icons for some reason
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@t @jlsuttles, @aaronpk updated the @IndieWebCamp site with an icon for any page, including http://indiewebcamp.com/icon :) (ttk.me t4TN1) (twitter.com/_/status/407954106834518016)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - odd no idea why that would be
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tantek if you figure it out, let aaronpk know! :)
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KartikPrabhu Also made one screenshot showing all indieweb author icons that were listed on icon page. http://indiewebcamp.com/File:Homescreen_icons.jpg
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tantek KartikPrabhu - just saw that! Very cool test shot
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bnvk KartikPrabhu: nice :D
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bnvk why is there duplicates?
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tantek bnvk see description :P
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tantek and yay Chloe!!! https://twitter.com/secretmildred/status/407934756358463488 (Chloe was an apprentice at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 - awesome that she's got POSSE working now)
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@secretmildred Live-tweeted implementing POSSE to Twitter over at @chloeweil. All tweets posted from mah blog. Not too far from realizing the dream now.
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bnvk Hrm, weird! They each pick different files?
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tantek bnvk - standards? what standards? :P
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bnvk srsly, with standards likes these, who needs standards!
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tantek KevinMarks - which OS / device / browsers were you using?
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tantek KartikPrabhu in your home screen icons image - which browser versions were you using?
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KartikPrabhu FF 25.0.1 and Chrome 31
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tantek so strange because those are the same versions I think Kevin Marks used
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KartikPrabhu yes. and he seem to have gotten some frame for FF. But I get that on some, like adactio but not on others
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bnvk I don't think I will buy another Apple smart device ever again- their mobile carrier lock in nonsense is absurd and has consumed 10+ hrs of my life trying to get my ipad working on Verizon
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tantek bnvk - I thought you were very happy with your ipad mini mobile data setup - thought it was very portable and stuff?!?
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tantek I was hoping to copy your setup!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: The indiewebcamp.com icon does not show up on FF on Android. Adds a generic star icon instead. Could be because of .ico file?
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bnvk I was, in Europe- apparently my iPad (bought in Germany) was locked to Dutch Vodafone
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tantek.com edited /icon (+308) "/* Firefox for Android */ add Android comparisons section with screen shots comparing Firefox vs Chrome home screen icon adding" (view diff)
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bnvk but that "supposedly" was just the CDMA baseband, GSM should have been fine, but trying to sign up at ATT was also impossible!
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bnvk Trying one last thing- fingers crossed
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tantek KartikPrabhu - thanks for uploading your screenshot - added to the page: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Android_browser_comparisons
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tantek bnvk - yikes - sorry to hear that.
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tantek Good luck - I really hope you figure it out and can document it for the rest of us.
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tantek I was this || close to getting an iPad mini with celldata hardware because of it (likely tmobile if they have it).
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KartikPrabhu tantek: cool. I'll try to keep it upto date if things change/improve with some icons
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bnvk tantek: thanks, I'll do that right now. Is there a page started on IWC for this sort of process?
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bnvk supposedly an American one should be able to go to EU and use GSM no prob- so it might still be a viable option
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tantek bnvk - go for it and start indiewebcamp.com/ipad :)
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bnvk maybe indiewebcamp.com/mobile-data-options ?
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bnvk tantek: regarding logo icons, I notice you don't do the multiple sizes for Apple, like aaronpk did- has Apple improved the parsing so as not need the sizes="" attr?
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tantek.com edited /icon (+117) "/* Why all the different sizes */ emphasize the not case" (view diff)
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tantek bnvk: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Why_all_the_different_sizes
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bnvk hehe :)
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bnvk Loqi: is tantek: on an asymptotical curve in respect to streamlining his textual output to equal a "pure creation / documentation" state?
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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bnvk friggin bot
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brennannovak.com edited /icon (+708) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /icon (+129) "add comment about FF25 v FF26 border issue" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /IRC_People (+45) (view diff)
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bear.im created /User:Bear.im (+59) "Created page with "{{stub}} <span class="h-card">[http://bear.im Bear]</span>"" (view diff)
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tantek bnvk nicely done! looks great!
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bnvk tantek: I was thinking about adding a blurb re: "Updating (of logo)" but was unsure if that was something more better suited for hCard ?
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KevinMarks I was on android 4.4 on a nexus 7 2013
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tantek bnvk - yes ideally these devices would get your logo from the h-card that's already on your page
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tantek see previously about "standards?" ;)
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bnvk ah, gotcha! And hence "updating" would be the onus of the browser / OS to handle using said standard?
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tantek bnvk - I've thought about simply having Falcon read my h-card from my index.html home page template, get the "logo" from there, and then automatically generate the rel="shortcut icon" markup etc.
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tantek so that I as the author/user/publisher only need to update the h-card on my home page index template to have it all work.
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tantek reducing DRY violations on the authoring side at least
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brennannovak.com created /mobile_data_solutions (+499) "Created page with "This page about '''mobile data providers''' that outlines alternative methods of getting on the web that meet the following criteria: * Does not require a physical wired connect..."" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes Trying to set up Indieauth and I get the following error for twitter: There was an error verifying this provider. Confirm you have a rel="me" link on this site pointing to your website.
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jonnybarnes any idea how to fix?
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: for some reason we're having issues with twitter right now (their SSL cert is erroring out on the server)
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aaronpk try using another provider for now
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@xtof_fr Premier tour de piste #indieweb sur combo #jekyll + #github Sensations vives et nerveuses proches du kart 2 temps. http://christopheducamp.github.io/jekyll/update/2013/12/03/premier-pas-sur-jekyll.html (twitter.com/_/status/408011537089982465)
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bnvk tantek: ah, yah that makes sense as a solution! Both of mine are dynamically generated from the same setting / file!
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jonnybarnes github is working, need to edit Google+ the page that goes back to indieauth.com is slightly different to the page I link to
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jonnybarnes I may have found a bug with Indieauth and app.net, my domain is verified but it doesnt work
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jonnybarnes I think because my site is served over HTTPS
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jonnybarnes and the verified domain on app.net isn't
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aaronpk and you're linking to your https URL from your app.net profile?
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aaronpk oh, that's the problem
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jonnybarnes well, you have to add an entry to your dns
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aaronpk for what?
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jonnybarnes and the app.net auto-links to the plain version
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aaronpk I thought app.net domain verification worked with a rel-me link from your site to your app.net profile
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jonnybarnes the way Ive verified my domain with app.net is to add a txt entry to my dns
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aaronpk well why'd you go do it that way ;)
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jonnybarnes because I did ok :P
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jonnybarnes I'm impressed with the openid implementation btw :)
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aaronpk hehe thanks
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aaronpk well I'm not actually sure if any of the people who run https-only sites have done app.net verification