#indiewebcamp 2014-01-06
2014-01-06 UTC
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bret.io edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+37) "/* URLs */ Added Calegator event" (view diff)
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@Brironic Successfully using Mozilla Persona (also Twitter/G+) via #IndieAuth's OpenID support, just in time for MyOpenID's demise! @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/419994953612140544)
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@craigrbruce RT @Covata: Covata Safe Share was highlighted in @NetworkWorld’s Product of the Week slideshow 23 Dec 2013:... https://www.facebook.com/covata.ownyourdata/posts/528695303904115 (twitter.com/_/status/420070658630885376)
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etymancer is there a thing like #indiedata? thinking about how evernote is sort of a quarter awesome and three quarters suck and much of the suck is getting access to your own data and...
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@vrypan Anything #indieweb related going on in London this week? I'll be over for some days. Hackerspaces or coworking spaces I should visit? (twitter.com/_/status/420110984695783424)
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# tobiastom hey.
# tobiastom I have some questions. someone around to help? :)
# tobiastom If I see it correctly, the idea behind all this is to rely on well established technologies. When I post something I format it with micro formats and add it to my feed. when you want to get updates from me you just subscribe to my feed, download the content and parse the micro formats, right?
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jonnybarnes thats the general idea I believe
# tobiastom and if I want to distribute it more realtime like, I support push. If I want your updates more instant, and you do not push, I have to pull more often, right?
# jonnybarnes well, yeah, like email.
# jonnybarnes if your email provider doesnt provide push then you need to set how often to check for new mail
# jonnybarnes I'm falling in love with leafletjs + MapBox
# tobiastom but for example feed readers could not be directly subscribers, because most likely they don't have a URL to notify. So they would need to poll the hub all the time?
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# tobiastom also… I download your feed, how am I supposed to see that it's a h-event post, or whatever?
# tobiastom so I would download the feed, check for new URLs, download all of them and then parse the microformats?
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@CashClamber Interested in a #private #socialmedia #newsfeed #webdesign. #POSSE #IndieWebCamp , own your data, syndicate to Fb/Tw! https://twitter.com/CashClamber/status/420158852210769922/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/420158852210769922)
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@carstenpoetter Idno sieht interessant aus: Open Source Social Networking for the Modern Web http://idno.co/?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferf4ef9&utm_medium=twitter Bsp.: http://werd.io/?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferf4ef9&utm_medium=twitter #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/420161899490451456)
# tobiastom also… how am I supposed to see a difference between a status post and a blog post?
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@martinlindner 2014: Das Jahr von #indieweb, #reclaimopen, #decentralizedweb etc. Wieso gibt es hier keinen dt. #HomebrewWebsiteComputerClub wie in USA? (twitter.com/_/status/420165830555353088)
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@jeena @tobiastom it is just very difficult to find that in the #indieweb wiki :/ (twitter.com/_/status/420175384848916480)
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barnabywalters Jeena: what does “that” refer to? i.e. what is it difficult to find? we’re always looking to make information on the wiki more accessible
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Jeena to tobiastom you can see he's tweet here too https://twitter.com/jeena/status/420175384848916480
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Loqi https://twitter.com/jeena :: @tobiastom it is just very difficult to find that in the #indieweb wiki :/
# barnabywalters I saw the tweet, still not entirely sure what you’re looking for which is difficult to find
# barnabywalters hm, true
# barnabywalters they’re both on the projects page, but that is pretty huge
# barnabywalters and it’s difficult to split “stuff I can use” from “random people’s projects which they haven’t open sourced”
# barnabywalters back feed (and so bridge) should certainly be on the building-blocks page
# barnabywalters Jeena: so you’re wanting specific how-to guides?
# barnabywalters e.g. how to accept webmentions, how to set up bridgy
# tobiastom IMHO it's needs something different then a wiki.
# tobiastom the idea (should be) that a wiki is great if you follow the topic for a long time and even contributed to it.
# tobiastom if you are new, or just want to dive in now, the wiki just gives you the feeling jeena did describe: feeling lost.
# tobiastom if I'm new, I have even no idea which link I should pick on the left side (the menu)
# barnabywalters so maybe “getting started” needs to be emphasised
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# barnabywalters Jeena: point taken, the getting started page is a little out of date
# barnabywalters really it should just say “buy a personal domain and join the IRC room”
# barnabywalters and then split the rest of it up into smaller, more specific how-to guides
# barnabywalters then let humans welcome, advise and point towards relevant pages on a case-by-case basis
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# barnabywalters Jeena: have you seen http://indiewebify.me at all? that’s aimed at new people, as a guide to getting started
# barnabywalters I’d be interested in any feedback on that too (I’m one of the developers/copy editors)
# tobiastom what the… nope barnabywalters, I've also never seen that. that's pretty cool!
# barnabywalters tobiastom: thanks! so apparently there should be a link to that on the getting started page. adding.
# barnabywalters btw there is a beta version at http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/ which is running a slightly more up-to-date copy, with some new features and improved webmention section
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Getting_Started (-81) "/* Getting Started on the IndieWeb */ removed TransitionalSteps link as it doesn’t exist and isn’t clear what it should include" (view diff)
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@tobiastom If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420184763300085760)
# tobiastom love it.
# tobiastom especially the new one.
# barnabywalters tobiastom: thanks! all feedback/testing welcome :)
# tobiastom barnabywalters: will do.
# tobiastom as I want to webify myself right now, you can even expect some feedback. maybe. :)
# barnabywalters tobiastom: great! what’s your personal domain (if you have one already)?
# tobiastom tobiastom.name, but there's nothing right now. :)
# barnabywalters Jeena: yep, that it a little awkwardly phrased. I’ll move the source code link somewhere out of flow
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@janl RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420185968671752192)
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /Getting_Started (+122) "/* Connect */ stub link to indiewebify.me" (view diff)
# @jeena RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420186064289288192)
# barnabywalters Jeena: that is somewhat related to http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
# barnabywalters which is a bit wordy but might also be useful for newcomers
# barnabywalters it’s tricky to see things from the perspective of a newcomer when you’re not one, so go ahead and be vocal about issues — it’s probably not your fault :)
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@nomadphp RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420186465830592512)
# barnabywalters Jeena: indeed, either that or some sort of “stick a URL in here and all the tests get done” would be great to have
# barnabywalters currently we’re building it as lots of little parts but I certainly want to pull them all together into a single step if possible
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /Category:building-blocks (+207) "/* Syndication */ added section on backfeed" (view diff)
# tobiastom barnabywalters: I don't think that is a good idea.
# barnabywalters tobiastom: having a one-step test?
# tobiastom yep.
# tobiastom maybe optional or something, but what I really like about it is: I'm new here, what's the indie web about. I want to start with it! ok, let's complete step 1. done that, great. now step 2!
# tobiastom maybe more like a game.
# barnabywalters tobiastom: yep, the incremental approach will never go away
# tobiastom ok, good. :)
# barnabywalters the one-step approach would be for people who already have a web presence to say “okay, this is what I’ve got, what should I do next?”
# tobiastom barnabywalters: yeah, nice idea as well!
# barnabywalters hm, good point, there is no homepage link
# barnabywalters or “next”, for that matter, which makes sense if it’s a sequence
# barnabywalters it shall be added
# barnabywalters thanks!
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# Jeena I wonder why the p-author in http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry is a <a>-tag without name or/and href attributes
# barnabywalters hm, I probably thought it was simpler like that. it should really have a href for clarity
# barnabywalters <a name=""> is deprecated
# tobiastom barnabywalters: you write »Markup your content (Posts, Articles, Notes, etc...) with microformats2«. how are posts, articles and notes differentiated?
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@CarstenRose RT @martinlindner: 2014: Das Jahr von #indieweb, #reclaimopen, #decentralizedweb etc. Wieso gibt es hier keinen dt. #HomebrewWebsiteCompute… (twitter.com/_/status/420193592666505216)
# barnabywalters tobiastom: posts refer to pretty much anything you post on your site, of which notes and articles are subsets
# barnabywalters typically “article” refers to a medium to long form “blog post” like thing with a name, and a note is more like a tweet or status update
# barnabywalters but really the line is very blurry
# tobiastom yes, sorry, I wasn't clear. how do I (via micro formats) differentiate notes from articles?
# barnabywalters not a problem :) when marking up posts just mark up anything which makes sense, and let people parsing your content figure out what it is
# barnabywalters you can use class="h-as-note" or h-as-article (as meaning activity streams) but in practise it’s not very useful
# barnabywalters better to let the content speak for itself
# tobiastom yeah, about that…
# tobiastom now you opened the box and have to live with my questions… :)
# tobiastom IMHO the end goal should be that we have a e.g. twitter like application on our devices. I could easily post some note (twitter) or article (blogger) there. maybe some image (instagram), and whatever. In reverse, I would expect to receive the same stuff from the people I subscribed to (I follow).
# tobiastom So, from that I understand the best way right now would be to a.) use activity streams or b.) wait for feed updates, download the content of the new items from the source URL, parse micro formats and display them somehow optimal.
# tobiastom if everybody uses their own classes for notes, images and whatever, that will never work.
# tobiastom this is really not an offensive question, but aren't we doing this stuff for humans?
# barnabywalters tobiastom: indeed we are doing this for humans :)
# barnabywalters what doe you mean by “everyone using their own classes for notes, images and whatever”?
# barnabywalters s/doe/do
# barnabywalters the first part of what you describe is being built, to various degrees of completion
# barnabywalters people are just starting working on the reader/subscriber parts
# barnabywalters as up until now using twitter or RSS readers has been adequate
# tobiastom ah, h-as-note is kind of defined in http://indiewebcamp.com/h-as-note#Use_with_microformats2, didn't know that. for get that remark :)
# tobiastom yeah, what Jeena said.
# barnabywalters but now people are posting richer indieweb content and having richer interactions, we’re starting to build better readers
# barnabywalters ah, yep — I can't imagine h-as-instagramimage ever existing
# barnabywalters unless instagram images are significantly different to other images in structure or UI
# barnabywalters which is part of the reason such explicit “types” are not very useful
# barnabywalters and instead to just treat everything as a post (h-entry) which might have various different properties (p-name, e-content, u-image if it’s a photo)
# barnabywalters and then figure out what it is from those
# barnabywalters so for readers, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, display it like a duck
# tobiastom barnabywalters: yeah, I was talking about that with Jeena before. I don't think that it makes much sense to subscribe to everything. Maybe Jeena posts useless notes (hundreds a day), but once a month a pretty great article, how can I only subscribe to the articles? different URLs?
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# tobiastom ;)
# barnabywalters tobiastom: that’s a theoretical, human problem which will be fixed if it actually exists
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KartikPrabhu tobiastom: I think people post notes and articles feeds and different URL anyway
# jonnybarnes realy enjoyed this TED talk by Sir Tim Berners-Lee on linked data this morning: http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_berners_lee_on_the_next_web.html
# KartikPrabhu i meant on different URLs
# jonnybarnes touches on what the indieweb is about
# barnabywalters i.e. wait until you *are* subscribed to someone and you *do* only want to see one post “type” from them, then we’ll figure out a good way of doing it
# tobiastom KartikPrabhu: I really don't think that different Urls are the solution. I for myself also want real humans, without a technical background, inside the indieweb.
# Jeena the "Add URLs of POSSEd copies!" warning(?) here http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2Fbrainfuck tells me to put links to for example Google+ and Facebook entries where I posted the same content?
# barnabywalters it’s more of a suggestion :)
# barnabywalters if you want to POSSE copies, then that’s how to mark them up
# tobiastom Hm. I think I would disagree with that way of working, but ok, maybe I'm just wrong.
# tobiastom http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE :)
# KartikPrabhu tobiastom: then as barnabywalters said. We can just wait till real humans start doing said thing before solving a problem that doesn't exist yet
# barnabywalters Jeena: POSSE tends to get used as a verb
# barnabywalters e.g. “POSSE to twitter, POSSEd copies”
# tobiastom if that problem arrises for me, what is the supposed way to handle it? I just implement it and document it, and hope others like it?
# jonnybarnes yeah, put what you do on the indiewebcamp wiki
# barnabywalters tobiastom: something like that, yep
# jonnybarnes other people might then suggest improvements
# barnabywalters that’s how most indieweb technologies have been developed — someone makes something cool, starts using it on their personal site and documents it. others discuss, implement, improve, etc.
# barnabywalters it keeps things grounded and productive
# jonnybarnes hey barnabywalters, I see you are using cloudmade's tiles on the maps on your site. Do you have to pay to use them?
# barnabywalters jonnybarnes: nope, they’re free tilesets
# tobiastom barnabywalters: are these mockups still available somewhere? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Barnaby_Walters.27_feedreader
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@vbachev RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420200520230666240)
# barnabywalters tobiastom: nope, but I’m actually working on a feed-reader sort of thing building on those now
# barnabywalters it’s a mixture of a feed reader and a flow-based programming environment
# barnabywalters ugly, unstyled homepage: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/
# jonnybarnes barnabywalters, what's a gurdy?
# barnabywalters jonnybarnes: a hurdy gurdy! see also http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=gurdy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy
# barnabywalters Jeena: if you already built pingback, webmention is way easier ;)
# barnabywalters jonnybarnes: my one in particular looks like this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1482/
# tobiastom ok, thank you all for now. I have to get back to some work… :)
# barnabywalters simple indieweb feed demo: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/feed/ and “source code”: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/feed/edit
# tobiastom I assume I would need to login, right?
# barnabywalters tobiastom: oh, is it giving you authentication hassle?
# tobiastom »Some error (cryptic-code-number: 403) has occurred, and I haven’t yet made this page very helpful about fixing it. My apologies.«
# barnabywalters you should be able to see it okay without logging in, just not save any changes
# barnabywalters oh dammit, I’ll fix that, but not right now
# tobiastom ok, thanks.
# tobiastom will try it again later.
# tobiastom oh, nope. I have one more question… not sure if that's right to ask it here:
# tobiastom activitystreams seems to be available in 2.0 in JSON only. is the ATOM one not developed any further and for that deprecated?
# barnabywalters tobiastom: pretty sure the ATOM serialisation is deprecated, but I’m not an activitystreams expert
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# tobiastom I did like that idea of having one feed only.
# barnabywalters tobiastom: with microformats2, your homepage HTML is your one true feed
# barnabywalters with the added benefit of working in browsers
# tobiastom so in theory rss and atom and all are deprecated?
# barnabywalters tobiastom: that’s one of the goals of microformats
# barnabywalters and what a few people here are doing
# barnabywalters e.g. my feed reader just consumes microformats for now, and all of my ATOM feeds (for back compatibility) are generated from microformats markup
# barnabywalters so there’s less to maintain
# tobiastom and you expect all the feed readers to support microformats at some point?
# tobiastom not sure what I think about that. but it's definitely a step back from all the API silos we create now.
# barnabywalters tobiastom: eventually, if we continue adding more and more value, ease of authoring and richness of information
# tobiastom I wasn't either.
# tobiastom to be honest I'm pretty shocked right now, but I can understand why.
# barnabywalters btw http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ is the service I use for converting microformats2 to ATOM
# barnabywalters Jeena: indeed! with the added benefit of it being more easily debuggable and human-visible
# tobiastom hm. even pagination would be possible with rel="next|prev"
# barnabywalters tobiastom: exactly ;)
# Jeena I only have links to the articles there https://jeena.net
# barnabywalters Jeena: just mark them up with h-entry but with no content
# Jeena and I assume http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ wants the url to that index page?
# barnabywalters Jeena: yep, that service will look for an h-feed or a bunch of h-entries and covert them into an ATOM
# barnabywalters feed
# barnabywalters got to go now, good afternoon!
# tobiastom same to you
# tobiastom thanks again!
# tobiastom hm. but the argument about having less to maintain is not true. we now have to maintain the activitystream (JSON) feed.
# tobiastom hm. I'm scared.
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: to be fair. consumer meaning consuming software not actual readers of the Web. I think
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: true. but that maybe because currently it is easier to consume than to publish
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: I would like them to be comparable. But as a realistic expectation, probably not
# KartikPrabhu but if we have good standardised formats, I don't see why either one should be more difficult than the other
# tobiastom you always have duplicate content? index vs. details page?
# tobiastom why do I repeat myself with a automatic generated atom feed?
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: why is a full-text html page bad compared to a full-text ATOM feed?
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cweiske and keep my headline-only index page on http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/
# tobiastom especially on mobile if I have a lot of articles.
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: yes, but then that can be parsed by a microformats-feed-reader and the original articles retrieved just as easily as a full-text ATOM feed
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# KartikPrabhu cweiske: yes. neither do I. I use a title+summary listing too. But I don't see how that is an argument against HTML+microformats vs ATOM
# tobiastom KartikPrabhu: one request to the atom, against 21 for one index and 20 articles.
# KartikPrabhu cweiske, tobiastom: good point. I wasn't thinking about number of requests. In any case all the feed readers I have used show a title listing and then the full article if I choose to read it. How is that different from what already happens on the Web?
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: I see. So the number of requests is the issue. Will have to think about that one!
# tobiastom cweiske: which is not always a good thing. :)
# tobiastom some here.
# tobiastom same.
# KartikPrabhu cweiske: microformats just sits on top of HTML so it is only leveraging all goodness of HTML.
# tobiastom cweiske: but you have the DOM!! :)
# KartikPrabhu xml parser for html! why would you want to do that?
# KartikPrabhu this seems to be going back to the publisher vs consumer debate
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# KartikPrabhu cweiske: Of course, I'm no expert on these things. Still figuring the whole indieweb thing as I go along. Still nothing like a good discussion to start the day!
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# tobiastom I don't even know of the idea about writing HTML to publish stuff should be rethought.
# tobiastom As we all tend to agree we want everybody to collaborate to the web. even HTML, as easy as it seems for us, is a too big hurdle for many people.
# KartikPrabhu tobiastom: do you mean that there should be no markup at all and we should just share plain/text files?
# tobiastom nope. that we should build the right tools that abstract all technical details away. which then could easily generate 5 different rss formats (even if we all don't like them)
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# KartikPrabhu there are already editors that can output HTML and possibly other formats from some text version like Markdown. Like: https://editorially.com/
# tobiastom KartikPrabhu: which automatically loose all the semantics needed for microformats.
# KartikPrabhu no. it does n't. Just like editors can generate sematic HTML they can add microformats automatically too
# KartikPrabhu no one does this yet I guess. But I don't see why it is not possible. In fact, lot of people here seem to have cool UIs for making posts on their indie website that does not involve writing any HTML
# KartikPrabhu tobiastom: as an example, here is aaronpk's p3k UI http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k
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# tobiastom that's what I ask for. rest tools. right now I do not see any of them really spreaded.
# KartikPrabhu yes it is very much a work in progress. Someone had to develop these nice posting UIs for Facebook and Twitter. But there is no reason that they can't exist on independent websites
# tobiastom I'm just unhappy with the status quo and don't see any progress. :)
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JonathanNeal I was just working on what you might be talking about KartikPrabhu.
# JonathanNeal Or maybe not. I dunno. https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/8280607
# KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: We were talking more about how posting on your own site may/may not need html know-how. But this looks like an interesting way to automatically POSSE to Facebook
# JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: my favorite library for PHP Markdown is https://github.com/michelf/php-markdown
# KartikPrabhu neat. I've been thinking of enabling Markdown posting to my site. Maybe there is a python equivalent I can use... More googling in my future
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@awendt RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420227825036455937)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+211) "Fix link to Transitional Steps, move to related section (hosting) and make that about a place for your stuff. Move indiewebify. Undo revision 6374 by [[Special:Contributions/Waterpigs.co.uk|Waterpigs.co.uk]] ([[User talk:Waterpigs.co.uk|talk]])" (view diff)
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# KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah, i still haven't gotten around to fixing the accept-header problems!
# KartikPrabhu you can mark this as my fault if you are keeping track of these bugs somehow
# KartikPrabhu np. i should really get to fixing that :)
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@misuba @keturn_hax I shall look into making them an indieauth option. (twitter.com/_/status/420287283514728448)
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# Jeena http://jeenaparadies.net/weblog/2012/feb/musik-auf-vinyl here is one pingback, sadly the site loads forever because of some PHP which kind of doesn't work like it should
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# Jeena I am confused about your take on webmentions/Pingback UI. I my mind a mention is not just a comment which would just show up under the post because the post which mentions you often is not only a comment but can be very long and about a whole different topic and only some small part is about your post.
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# jonnybarnes ok, as someone coming from PHP, how can I add a new element to an array in JS? array[] = variable
# jonnybarnes doesnt work
# jonnybarnes thanks
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# jonnybarnes well I’m now stuck :(
# jonnybarnes I'm trying todo a reverse geocode through google's api
# jonnybarnes and the result is an object with an array called results, and I'm trying to loop though that array
# jonnybarnes so, given the JSON: https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/#ReverseGeocoding
# jonnybarnes each result has a formatted_address
# jonnybarnes I want an array of those addresses
# jonnybarnes Jeena, what you said before works :)
# tantek.com edited /pingback (+3013) "/* Problems */ add Poor display section from comments-presentation page" (view diff)
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# tantek.com edited /comments-presentation () "(-1150) /* Existing specifications for display */ subsection for TrackBack display, move pingback display problems to pingback page, link to it" (view diff)
# jonnybarnes I’m starting to enjoy JS!!
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# jonnybarnes Jeena, if I have a node, which has children nodeA, nodeB and nodeC, and I run parent.appendChild(newNode), that by default is added after nodeC. How could I add it to be between nodeB and nodeC for example?
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benwerd Grump Twitter making it hard for me to share their pages via the Social API grump https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=953431
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aaronpk you're welcome to test with this: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/10/12/2/indieweb
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# barnabywalters tantek: not a problem :) thanks for correcting that link on /Getting_started
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@djp1974 Hey @t as a non-coder and a rank website beginner, how difficult is Twitter/Facebook syndication using BBEdit (or anything else)? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/420342598566309888)
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