#indiewebcamp 2014-01-29

2014-01-29 UTC
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bret
Just got an email from Ifttt about downtime :)
caseorganic, fmarier and npdoty joined the channel
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snarfed
those servers aren't going to deploy themselves
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tantek
hey Loqi, why no Twitter quoting?
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Loqi
woot!
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tantek
no woot Loqi!
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Loqi
yay!
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tantek
Loqi, time to switch to decaf.
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snarfed
let's just say, of all loqi's problems, the uncanny valley isn't one of them
caseorganic joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /federation (+1236) "definition, note exception of DNS for practical work, indieweb focus on federated feature UIs"
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tantek
snarfed - just expanded the definition of federation for indieweb with some semi-opinionated assertions - would appreciate your review
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snarfed
will do
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tantek.com
edited /sync (+431) "add article of why not to use iCloud sync for apps, expand iTunes citations"
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tantek.com
edited /sync (+46) "/* iTunes sync */ using itunes"
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gRegorLove and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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snarfed
tantek: federation edits look good. the new text doesn't seem (too) opinionated or biased to me
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snarfed
clarifying/proposing the indieweb movement's goals doesn't seem opinionated to me, if that's what you meant. more like taking leadership, maybe. go for it. :P
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tantek
thanks snarfed
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tantek
federation is one of those terms thrown around a lot so I figured it was worth putting down some specifics, even if just from an indieweb perspective
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pdurbin
can we get a link to follow for "there are ongoing efforts to figure out how to replace DNS with a peer-to-peer system"?
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tantek
pdurbin - I've heard so many but don't want to (don't know enough to) bias a reference to any one of them in particular. I'd rather leave it at people searching for it.
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tantek
if you have a favorite, please feel free to reference!
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tantek
I guess the Bittorrent alternatives is the most real sounding?
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tantek
s/alternatives/alternative
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: I guess the Bittorrent alternative is the most real sounding?
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tantek
but it's from 2010 :/ http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-based-dns-to-counter-us-domain-seizures-101130/ and the dot-p2p.org domain is not responding to me :(
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pdurbin
!tell tantek ok, thanks. didn't know if you had a favorite
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
fmarier, npdoty, snarfed, caseorganic, KartikPrabhu, paulcp, melvster, ozten2 and lukebrooker joined the channel
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upon2020.com
edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (-17) "Fixed link to map which hadn't worked for me"
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tantek joined the channel
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Loqi
tantek: pdurbin left you a message 2 hours, 29 minutes ago: ok, thanks. didn't know if you had a favorite
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@FhafaRuqZ
#F_RuqzNews added consistency with respect to the way the other types of linkbacks are defined. ← Previous rev... https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WebMention&diff=591974111&oldid=574753578&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
(twitter.com/_/status/426204289891971073)
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@FhafaRuqZ_
#F_RuqzNews added consistency with respect to the way the other types of linkbacks are defined. ← Previous rev... https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WebMention&diff=591974111&oldid=574753578&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
(twitter.com/_/status/426204276579266560)
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tantek
prime example of why you shouldn't use or encourage invisible metadata: Google for "state of the union" RIGHT NOW
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tantek.com
uploaded /File:2014-01-28_at_20.58.22_sotu_search.png "Screenshot of a search for SOTU that shows a problem with invisible metadata."
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: how do I see this upload?
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tantek
KartikPRabhu - see for yourself - do a google search for state of the union
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tantek.com
uploaded /File:2014-01-28_at_21.17.50_sotu_search_bing.png "For comparison, same search on Bing."
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: All of them *do* seem to be relevant to state of the union. What is the problem?
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Loqi
the problem is that it looks the same but content has had a link
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - the image
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KartikPrabhu
I seem to be getting the correct one on my search.
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KartikPrabhu
with Biden + Obama
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi: you don't know anything about human politics
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: Also i have BBC source instead of CNN, even on unpersonalised results. Might be some funny personalisation by language. But I get your point
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tantek
Interesting that you're getting BBC instead
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tantek
might depend on geo
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tantek
anybody else here?
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KartikPrabhu
I have place = Chicago but lang = English(UK) so that might be it
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tantek
they're doing IP address based stuff
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tantek
even if you have place=Chicago it won't effect it
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tantek
(or will be a tertiary factor at best)
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KartikPrabhu
oh i am in Chicago also... :P
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benwerd
I'm also getting Biden + Obama
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KartikPrabhu
maybe someone at Google fixed it?! unlikely but who knows
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: the Biden+Obama is also the one I have but wit first article from the BBC
poppy, _6a68, tantek, carlo_au, pfenwick, cweiske, Jihaisse and npdoty joined the channel
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@SimplibApp
Very excited about tonight's event by #fivebyfive. Glad to meet @chhhloe @nitot @LDBenyayer @gcrouigneau #Opendata #opensource #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/428486609223565312)
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@LuluPouss
Very excited about tonight's event by #fivebyfive. Glad to meet @chhhloe @nitot @LDBenyayer @gcrouigneau #Opendata #opensource #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/428486696444104704)
pfefferle, adactio, friedcell, lobakputih, bnvk, Sebastien-L, pfenwick, pasevin, chloeweil, glennjones, snarfed, CheckDavid and benwerd joined the channel
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jonnybarnes
is there anyone there who has indieauth set up on their site, i.e. there site returns header Link: <..>
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jonnybarnes
rel="authorization_endpoint"?
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jonnybarnes
or uses the html link element to same effect
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aaronpk
I believe I return it in both
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: I do too, trying now…
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jonnybarnes
once its "working" i need to look at handling errors better
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barnabywalters
nice! it works, but my site doesn’t support micropub yet, so I can’t try it out right now
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jonnybarnes
but just want to check how I;m doing
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jonnybarnes
i havent added the abilty to post yet
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aaronpk
I just auth'd successfully!
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jonnybarnes
hang on? didnt aaronpk use your site to post to his through micropub?
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jonnybarnes
thanks guys
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aaronpk
which means you should now have a token you can use to post to my site, heh
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: aaron posted to *his* site, but my own doesn’t support post creation via micropub
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Jihaisse
jonnybarnes: I get an error on login with indieAuth
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jonnybarnes
yeah, I need to look into that next
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: I came across an error, want me to send you the HTML of the stack trace?
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jonnybarnes
what error did you get Jihaisse
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barnabywalters
it’s the Undefined index: me on AdminController line 290
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aaronpk
Jihaisse: jonnybarnes: I got that too then I tried entering my site with "http"
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Jihaisse
I tried both
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Jihaisse
errors with both
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jonnybarnes
going to /beginauth directly will currently result in an error, my routes.php only looks for post requests to /beginauth
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aaronpk
jonnybarnes: I was redirected there after entring "aaronparecki.com"
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: what does Indieauth\client::getAccessToken do if it fails to get a token?
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aaronpk
I believe it returns an empty array
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aaronpk
or actually it returns an array with whatever the response from the token endpoint was
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aaronpk
so it might have an "error" key
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neuro`
Good(insert timezone here)
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jonnybarnes
what happens if you try now?
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cweiske
Good CET!
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aaronpk
jonnybarnes: now it says "error determining authorization endpoint" if I just type "aaronparecki.com"
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jonnybarnes
all im doing is dumping the me variable into client::discoverAuth...point()
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jonnybarnes
is that something that should be fixed on the client end? or should i be making sure the url passed to is absolute?
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: considering that the placeholder for the field just has a domain in, you should probably accept just the domain
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aaronpk
ah I see, the indieauth php client is rejecting it cause it's missing the scheme
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aaronpk
that should probably set the scheme to 'http' if it's not present
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aaronpk
in the mean time you could also test for the scheme and set it to 'http' if not set
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: yeah, its easy to do on my end, as aaronpk has just said
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aaronpk
before passing it to IndieAuth\Client
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: I think it'll work now
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aaronpk
looks good!
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: shall I open an issue on github about the failing with schemeless URLs?
brianloveswords, benwerd, snarfed, bnvk, melvster1, skinny, friedcell, npdoty, scor, _6a68, tantek and benprew joined the channel
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aaronpk
wow, a really interesting reason to use a silo email address for things that require email sign-in or allow email password resets http://thenextweb.com/socialmedia/2014/01/29/lost-50000-twitter-username/
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aaronpk
for example if someone were able to take control of the tantek.com domain and changed the MX records, all of a sudden they could do password resets on all services!
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aaronpk
so he argues it's safer to use a gmail.com address for sign-in, because in theory it's harder to break in to a gmail account
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sparverius
yeah if you're using gmail vs gapps it's probably marginally safer to use gmail
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aaronpk
doesn't really have anything to do with google apps
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sparverius
unless your registrar is not a piece of shit that shoots elephants for fun
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sparverius
i mean, gmail vs your own domain
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sparverius
functionally, they're identical, but gmail isn't really susceptable to someone hijacking the domain
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tantek
aaronpk - not a silo email address, just an email address other than your personal domain
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EHLOVader
isn't it harder to change domain details though? aren't they supposed to be locked down
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EHLOVader
two factor might have helped too right?
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tantek
use a *paid* email address, not a free one like gmail. this is all about customer service / responsiveness, which is MUCH better with services you pay for than "free" services.
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tantek
EHLOVader - yes, setup 2-factor
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tantek
on your email, Twitter, FB, Github etc.
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EHLOVader
bought an encrypted private email at torguard this past year
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EHLOVader
plan to use it for important secure communications
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EHLOVader
I also bought anon proxy services, and an anon vpn
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tantek
EHLOVader - can you add a short blurb about that on http://indiewebcamp.com/email-hosting ?
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EHLOVader
all different usernames, but a great deal for black friday
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EHLOVader
oh, how did that stub get create?
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tantek
e.g. link to torguard, approximate cost, brief list of features (what you just said in IRC)
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EHLOVader
created?
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tantek
thank you!
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EHLOVader
it may be a day or two
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tantek
am creating the stub
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EHLOVader
but I will folow through with that
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EHLOVader
and add myself to IRC lurkers
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EHLOVader
afaik torguard is a reputable mail host, their proxy has been splendid and the vpn I haven't used yet, but I am sure it is good
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EHLOVader
bought it with bitcoins
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EHLOVader
probably didn't "wash" them enough to be anonymous anonymous, but you really only need to worry that much if you plan on committing crimes
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EHLOVader
so what is the bare minimum required to indieauth
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tantek.com
created /email-hosting (+318) "stub"
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aaronpk
tantek: the problem exists with any domain that you have registered on your own
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tantek
aaronpk - not if they can't figure out the domain
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EHLOVader
single html webpage with rel=me to a few authenticated sites and links back
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aaronpk
security by obscurity? yeah
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EHLOVader
recently short designer domains in countries with repressive laws has been an issue
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EHLOVader
the ability to create SSL certificates through the email verification is a posible attack vector too
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tantek
EHLOVader - indeed, hence we keep track of those here: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains
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EHLOVader
allowing for man in the middle
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EHLOVader
domai.nr
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EHLOVader
I will be on the wiki all weekend it seems
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tantek
EHLOVader - if you know of a specific short designer domains in countries with repressive laws that have been an issue, please note specific examples!
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EHLOVader
just ly
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EHLOVader
vb.ly was a specific instance
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EHLOVader
but bit.ly could have been attacked too
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EHLOVader
*"attacked"
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snarfed
hey aaronpk, re administrative stuff for hwc tonight…
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snarfed
i assume let's meet 15-30m early to set up the video link
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EHLOVader
so actually aaronpk I hae looked into lots of email hosting
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EHLOVader
recently/
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aaronpk
sure! I'll have a laptop with a separate camera and mic this time
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tantek.com
edited /email-hosting (+94) "incorporate providers from [[email#Email_Services_by_Type]]"
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snarfed
also, SF has driven for a while now, but this might be a good opportunity for pdx to take the lead for a mtg, if you want
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snarfed
(otherwise i'm happy to lead)
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EHLOVader
trying to get a quick anything setup for my domain instead of dealing with posfix to get ssl
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EHLOVader
my ssl was borked
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tantek
re: earlier discussion about Twitter autolinking standalone ccTLDs like ttk.me - they never will.
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tantek
too many false positives
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EHLOVader
so I know a few, and can hunt down a few other resources.. for paid and free
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EHLOVader
interesting
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tantek
people type things that look like standalone ccTLDs in normal Twitter text
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tantek
ALL THE TIME
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tantek
that's why they chose not to link them
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tantek
and only link them if they had a path
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tantek.com
edited /email-hosting (+12) "see also"
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aaronpk
snarfed: happy to have you lead, I assume there will be more people in SF than pdx
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ re: ttk.me
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aaronpk
snarfed: what video client should we use?
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aaronpk
tantek: yeah that makes sense
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tantek
aaronpk - get dietrich to setup a Vidyo room and URL
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snarfed
aaronpk: if you want, sure! i like the idea of pdx leading occasionally to emphasize that it's a first class citizen, but your call
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tantek
and then share that URL with snarfed
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aaronpk
ah right! we can host it that way!
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tantek
then he can set it up in SF the same way that you did last week in PDX
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snarfed
'works for me
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KartikPrabhu
another about email security: gmail basically forgets the dots in the email address except for log in. So I use a different combination of dots to register on external sites than the actual email address
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - how does that help with the password reset scenario?
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: yup. also +… suffixes. neither defeats an APT like the one in the article, but they help with broader attacks like stolen password dumps
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KartikPrabhu
maybe not. but if for example if my facebook is compromised somehow, it does not directly lead to my gmail
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snarfed
true, at least for the common threat model: broad, indiscriminate, simple attacks using big dumps of email addresses (and maybe passwords, etc)
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snarfed
it won't stop an individual spear phisher against an individual victim, like the one in the article, but fortunately that threat is rare
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dietrich
tantek: aaronpk
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dietrich
tonight tonight tonight
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EHLOVader
was this talk from 28c3 mentioned here? http://youtu.be/18pFTo3zVxk
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dietrich
whooooaaaaoooo
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EHLOVader
or was it somewhere else
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EHLOVader
it was a security talk which iirc was where I heard about countries using their domain control or just attacking email to create ssl certs for domains
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EHLOVader
valid ones
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tantek.com
created /Twitter_Cards (+688) "stub"
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EHLOVader
I thought it was in here
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dietrich
aaronpk: tantek: yeah i'll get a vidyo URL
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tantek.com
edited /cards (+84) "l twitter cards"
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tantek.com
edited /cards (+0) "fix main"
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tantek.com
edited /cards (+33) "/* Facebook OGP */ main"
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aaronpk
I havent had much time for indieweb stuff the last 2 weeks, I don't have much of an update for tonight unfortunately
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snarfed
np! hwc doesn't have to always be show and tell. just talking is useful too
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tantek
aaronpk - um - you got Bridgy RSVPs from FB to your HWC event!
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tantek
that's DEFINITELY worth talking about and showing!!
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tantek
"havent had much time for indieweb stuff the last 2 weeks" - sheesh - so modest.
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aaronpk
oh right haha! except I didn't have to do anything to make that work :)
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aaronpk
that was all snarfed!
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tantek
aaronpk - it's not the effort, it's the end user utility!
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tantek
well then snarfed can talk about it in SF :)
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tantek
you guys have plenty of awesomeness to talk about ;)
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aaronpk
literally all I did was create the facebook syndicated copy of the event from my site, and everything worked magically :)
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tantek
aaronpk - simplicity is a feature
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tantek
let's not forget how hard we work to make that so
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tantek
as opposed to ahem, OTHER efforts ;)
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aaronpk
oh and I did walk barnaby through indieauth, and posted a note from his interface to my site!
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tantek
no one ever received a Salmon slap for an RSVP ever right?
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tantek
aaronpk yes!
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snarfed
will do
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snarfed
lol, fair enough
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tantek
see, you've been busy
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aaronpk
again, that was all barnaby :) I just walked him through it!
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tantek
aaronpk - again, so humble.
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tantek
welcome chloeweil!
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dietrich
public video conferencing URL. requires installation of proprietary technology plugin
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aaronpk
dietrich: cool thanks. we'll be able to join that URL from a meeting room?
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snarfed
thanks dietrich!
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snarfed
dietrich: looking at http://www.vidyo.com/products/use/#tab=Desktop … it says there's a browser version, but that link says to d/l the desktop app. do you know which is right?
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aaronpk
snarfed: I downloaded the app last time
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dietrich
snarfed: huh i don't think there's a browser *only* version
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EHLOVader
so did I not pop in here around black friday time to tell about the torguard deal?
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snarfed
oh, yeah, browser extension.
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dietrich
i think you have to install the app (which maybe installs a plug-in or something?)
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snarfed
meh i'll download the app
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aaronpk
i think it's just an app that gets launched via the URL
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aaronpk
it's not the worst system i've used :)
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EHLOVader
they ran an amazing deal, and apparently always do, it was 75% off for VPN, Proxy and the encrypted email bundled.
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tantek
I want my WebRTCTV!
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tantek
EHLOVader - good to note on the email services page!
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tantek
And perhaps even have a reminder this year :)
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EHLOVader
I will point that out
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tantek
can we tell Loqi to remind us on that date?
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Loqi
woot!
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EHLOVader
they may not do it every year, but they seem to have
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EHLOVader
so yeah, for 1 year of VPN, unlimited bittorrent proxy, and pgp encrypted webmail it was only $40USD
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tantek.com
created /2014-01-28-nixon-photo-on-sotu-result (+1210) "draft a page about the prominent invisible metadata problem that happened last night on Google News"
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tantek.com
edited /antipatterns (+922) "invisible metadata"
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sparverius
indieweb at mozilla tonight right?
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aaronpk
homebrew computer club yes :)
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aaronpk
you in pdx? you should rsvp on the wiki!
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aaronpk
homebrew *website club
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tantek
sparverius at mozpdx
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tantek
and at Quip in SF
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sparverius
homebrew website club
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tantek.com
edited /link-preview (-40) "linky linky"
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4c4d.com
created /User:4c4d.com (+44) "Created page with "Hi, I'm Laurence! [http://4c4d.com 4c4d.com]""
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tantek.com
edited /2014-01-28-nixon-photo-on-sotu-result (+104) "/* Posts */ add Erin O'Connor's screenshot also"
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tantek.com
edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (-33) "link to local invisible metadata reference"
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benwerd
I added an event for the SF version, and copied aaronpk's manual POSSE to Facebook for it.
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snarfed
thanks benwerd!
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snarfed
mmm de-duping events… :P
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benwerd
snarfed: we're not Facebook friends so I couldn't add you as the host
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snarfed
YEAH I'M NOT YOUR FACEBOOK FRIEND EITHER SO THERE
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snarfed
…sorry, don't know what came over me :P
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snarfed
off to friend you
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tantek
sparverius - add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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benwerd
gently takes a step back, sipping tentatively at his coffee
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tantek
benwerd did you POSSE an SF HWC event to FB?
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benwerd
tantek: by hand. Was going to add auto-POSSE but I ran out of time fixing other stuff last night.
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tantek
manually is totally ok
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benwerd
(grumps at the Foursquare API for changing.)
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snarfed
oh, i see. i hadn't realized aaron's fb event was sf-specific
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aaronpk
mine is pdx specific
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benwerd
pdx-specific
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snarfed
er, pdx. right
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tantek
refreshes werd.io
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sparverius
refreshes with the cool, crisp taste of 7-Up
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Loqi
woot
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snarfed
interop is such a pain, it always amazes me when anything works
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benwerd
snarfed, I just want to say again, bridgy is incredible
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snarfed
thanks benwerd!
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snarfed
idno too, you've done a great job with it. hugs all around
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aaronpk
benwerd: what'd you do that makes your facebook RSVPs show up so much nicer than mine?
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benwerd
I .. have no idea?
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benwerd
goes to look at your rsvps
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snarfed
aaronpk, i suspect you're using the whole h-entry as the text, while benwerd is only using the e-content
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snarfed
bridgy optimizes UX for the latter
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snarfed
on a related note…just fyi benwerd, looks like your recent u-url fix didn't apply to rsvps
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benwerd
oh, you're right
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benwerd
that's a little funky
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snarfed
oh wait no. i think bridgy rsvps don't have u-url?
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benwerd
wait - it looks like there isn't a u-url to the rsvp
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benwerd
indeed
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tantek
so just for lols I said maybe then no
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tantek
to see what would happen
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benwerd
I'm falling back to the source URL where u-url doesn't exist
#
tantek
hmm - and looks like that update didn't go through
#
snarfed
yeah, bridgy doesn't handle response updates or deletes yet
#
tantek
snarfed commented :)
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benwerd
This will be the first HWC for a while where I won't have to rush off. Hoping some SF folks will be up for food / drinks afterwards. If not, I think I'll still hang somewhere nearby and hack.
#
snarfed
sure! i may be around for a bit
#
benjaminchait
aaronpk tantek - I’m not sure your wiki backend, but the FB and Calagator URLs for tonight’s HWC are not clickable. Intended?
#
jonnybarnes
anyone here use git? if I have branches master, feature1, ..., featureN for example, is there an easy way to see if any of those feature branches haven't been merged into master yet?
#
snarfed
git branch —merged/—no-merged ?
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KevinMarks
benwerd: sounds good to me - also dorkbot is on tonight
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snarfed
jonnybarnes: i also use git log --branches --not --remotes=origin --stat to show commits in any local branch that haven't been pushed to the remote
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benwerd
excellent!
#
jonnybarnes
snarfed, thanks, that works
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KevinMarks
tho' it's a bit of a trek from Quip
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tantek
dorkbot is one of those passive events right, where you listen/watch a presentation?
#
KevinMarks
and sit around on sofas and chat to people, drink eat etc
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tantek
KevinMarks - sounds like our after-meetings
#
tantek
benwerd - I for one am up for food / drinks afterwards, since I won't be back to SF in time for the HWC meetup itself
#
tantek
benjaminchait, aaronpk - I'm seeing the same problem with attempting to click on https links in the wiki - did something change / break recently?
#
tantek
benjaminchait - it's mediawiki
#
aaronpk
not that I know of
caseorganic joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /event (+844) "/* POSSE */ note actual FB POSSE usage examples, problems with G+ (lack of event API)"
(view diff)
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tantek
ok that's odd - the https clickability problem is inconsistent for me
#
aaronpk
probably some weird <span> markup clobbering it or something
#
tantek
aaronpk - aha the https facebook URL on this page is not clickable for me: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club
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tantek
because you added this around the link! <a class="u-syndication" rel="syndication">
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aaronpk
it's an <a> tag around the link, but mediawiki auto-links URLs
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tantek
(note the lack of href)
#
tantek
which then masks the clickability of the <a href> inside it!
#
aaronpk
HTML... HOW DOES IT WORK
#
tantek
hahaaha
#
tantek
I'd fix it, however I don't think the FB event is a syndication of the wiki page
#
KevinMarks
gah. Go to site, can't remember password. I do the password reset dance, and it asks me for a new password
#
KevinMarks
I give it one I use for such sites and it tells me I can't reuse a previous password
#
tantek
aaronpk, your FB event is a syndication of the event post on your site, not the wiki
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KevinMarks
Is there a term of art for sites you use infrequently enough that every time you go there you reset your password?
#
@cdevroe
.@flyosity @jaredsinclair RSS is going to come back but not as a spec. It’ll be the open web’s version of “following” http://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/428617925608869888)
#
tantek
oh that's an interesting (re)framing
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (+85) "split up city specific URLs"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
it also fist your original IE3 Mac feature of notifying when a site changed
#
KevinMarks
s/fist/fits/
#
Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: it also fits your original IE3 Mac feature of notifying when a site changed
#
tantek
Kevinmarks, which worked via the HTML of the page, not any sidefile
#
KevinMarks
which I've noticed Google Now does - it's started to give me notifications for the carton sites I read
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KevinMarks
yep, requires some kind of crawl
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snarfed
nicely parallels a topic i planned to propose tonight: would an indieweb reader be different (in functionality/UX, not technically) from just a feed reader with people's sites you want to follow
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snarfed
(i don't care if it's rss or atom or mf2 under the covers)
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tantek
snarfed - very much so. reader UI has greatly evolved beyond integration
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snarfed
don't answer now! save it for tonight!
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tantek
of course, the plumbing is not the opint
#
tantek
s/opint/point
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: of course, the plumbing is not the point
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tantek
snarfed, I won't be there tonight!
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snarfed
true! you might be there after though?
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snarfed
in any case, we'll try to capture any discussion, and you can add to it on the wiki or wherever
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tantek
~20:30 with any luck
#
tantek
great! yes please capture stuff in IRC
#
tantek
is so far from coding "reader" functionality into his own website
#
tantek
so many other awesome things to get working first
#
snarfed
heh, true, but benwerd at least has made noises about working on it soon
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snarfed
maybe others
#
benwerd
nods. got a few things to do first too. I'd love to demo it in PDX though.
#
tantek
oh darn, looks more like 21:30 til I'm in SF proper :/
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KevinMarks
where are you, tantek?
#
aaronpk
heh you're going to be right over PDX during the meetup
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snarfed
yell really loud!
#
@ehafen
Congrats @fhjenny and ZH PhD students of the winter school on pers med for creative business planning! Great fun! #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/428622323647008768)
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benwerd
[some kind of joke about tantek being in the cloud]
#
benwerd
if you'll have wifi you can always join via IRC.
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aaronpk
[mild laughter]
#
benwerd
[metadiscussion]
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tantek
that might be worth paying for
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benwerd
heh. A bunch of my friends were in the Guardian's 50 British bloggers round-up in .. I want to say the late nineties? Maybe 2000-2001? Seems so long ago.
#
KartikPrabhu
wait I thought Blogging died already! Come on Blogging make up your mind.
#
benwerd
"Posting on Facebook turns 20" doesn't sound like it'll quite have the same ring to it in 2024.
#
tantek
will Facebook even make it to 20?
#
benwerd
I bet it will, in a Yahoo kind of way
#
benwerd
checks himself, dials down the snark
#
tantek
heard a recent anecdote that the average age of a FB user has been rising and is up to 40
#
benwerd
That can't all be Snapchat
#
KartikPrabhu
it will be interesting to compare the flow of age groups between social networks
#
snarfed
i expect it's mostly due to growth, not churn
#
snarfed
lots of young users may be using instagram, snapchat, etc more, but i doubt a lot of them have actually deleted their fb accounts
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tantek
benwerd, funny you should mention snapchat - also heard anecdote that "all the kids" are fleeing Facebook and using Snapchat instead. In France.
#
benwerd
(and does instagram count as facebook now?)
#
jonnybarnes
micropub authentication? so my app now has a token from you, probably some random encrypted string (JWT for example). How do I send that with a new note POSTing to your site? if that question makes sense
#
jonnybarnes
thanks, must have missed that
#
aaronpk
np. it's a long doc.
#
jonnybarnes
should the string 'Bearer' be there all the time?
#
aaronpk
yea, that's an oauth thing
#
KevinMarks
my sons use facebook to communicate with me...
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tantek
KevinMarks - I use FB Messenger for txting
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KevinMarks
and vice versa, as i mainly use twitter
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KevinMarks
yes FB messenger is good at texting. I used to use twitter until they banned URLs from dm's
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tantek
"Blogging turns 20"[citation needed]
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tantek
KevinMarks, a home page is not a historical citation (unless it's a 20 year old home page :P )
#
KevinMarks
and DW apparently
#
KevinMarks
looks a bit like retconning to me, given the last line in this post: http://scripting.com/davenet/1994/10/07/marccantersingsagain.html
#
tommorris
tantek, KevinMarks: am in the US at the moment. My UK network gives me unlimited 3G roaming but charges me through the nose to send an SMS or make a call. FB messenger and IRC are an excellent replacement
#
KevinMarks
Dave's 1994 'blog posts' are in fact emails on AppleLink
#
KevinMarks
same for me in reverse in the UK with t-mobile
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tantek
KevinMarks - so, what you're saying is, they don't have permalinks.
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tommorris
SMS and voice are now legacy protocols
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tommorris
Just over one week and I have used 1.2Gb roaming
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tantek
unlimited 3G roaming sounds pretty amazing
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benwerd
tommorris: which network, and how much does unlimited 3G roaming cost, out of interest? That's an awesome deal
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benwerd
T-Mobile US gives you unlimited roaming, but it's not 3G iirc
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tommorris
Three UK have a £18 a month contract. Unlimited 4G data at home and in a small number of countries they have unlimited 3G but no tethering
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tommorris
And calls and SMS home are included but calls/SMS locally costs loads
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benwerd
That's pretty nice.
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benwerd
And dramatically inexpensive compared to US contracts.
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tommorris
When I last changes my phone I bought a SIM unlocked iPhone to avoid long term contract lock in and operators reneging on contract prices
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benwerd
That's what appealed to me about the Nexus 5, too.
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tantek
benwerd - just invited a bunch of people to your POSSE copy of the SF HWC event
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tantek
let's see how that works as people RSVP
#
tantek
will hopefully make for some good test data for doing event UI
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KevinMarks
t-mobile in france/uk is unlimited, but throttled at 128kbit/sec
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KevinMarks
which is reasonable
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tantek
odd - I'm not seeing updates here: http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club
#
aaronpk
what the heck that's a ton of people
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aaronpk
at ~150 lbs/person that is actually almost literally a ton of people
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm not sure everyone in that list would like to be thought of as ~150lb. Just sayin.
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KevinMarks
I have a spare 60lb over that to even up the average
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aaronpk
s/at /at an average of /
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: at an average of ~150 lbs/person that an average of is actually almost literally a ton of people
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aaronpk
something like that
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benwerd
is, at least in this respect, significantly above-average
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snarfed
ah, it's the invitations
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tantek
is ~20lb over average
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snarfed
bridgy sends webmentions for invitees
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tantek
over that average anyway
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tantek
snarfed - for RSVPs!
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tantek
was wondering how noisy this might get
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snarfed
i think i got the mf2 right for invited but not rsvped people
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tantek
here we go - testing all that spam handling :)
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snarfed
but yeah we can turn it off if we want
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snarfed
let me check
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aaronpk
oh my god
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aaronpk
how many people
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benwerd
tantek invited 81 people, I think.
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aaronpk
it might be time to add batching and better parsing to webmention.io IRC notifications
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snarfed
aaronpk: and u-url!!! :P
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snarfed
yeah, click on any of them and you can see the mf2. no p-rsvp, just a mention and in-reply-to
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tantek
bbiab
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benwerd
goes to eat lunch
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snarfed
load test!
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benwerd
tantek, brianloveswords - we need to talk tasks, but let's wait til the noise dies down
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snarfed
sorry all
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EHLOVader
do you all code too? a lot
#
snarfed
on the plus side, it looks like werd.io only renders actual rsvps, not invites. http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club
#
EHLOVader
or just a strong web presence? and maybe markup the other stuff involved with web development
#
EHLOVader
I understand that might be a silly question.... hm
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EHLOVader
can loqi do digests? if there is a huge queue?
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Loqi
who, me?
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EHLOVader
that seems like it should be a thing...
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aaronpk
it's part of webmention.io, not loqi
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KevinMarks
loqi is going to get kickbanned soon
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benwerd
loqi, shut up for a second
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EHLOVader
but then it would require loqi to have a webpage itself to list these
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EHLOVader
how is it part of the webmention.io?
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aaronpk
webmention.io is receiving webmentions for indiewebcamp.com
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EHLOVader
if I remember right loqi is both bot and human, not quite a remake of robocop but similar
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EHLOVader
but how is it piped through loqi
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aaronpk
unicorns and rainbows
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EHLOVader
I guess that is what I didn't remember
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snarfed
we're at 70 out of 81, so it should be over soon
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EHLOVader
I ask about the code because I didn't know if anyone here used sublimetext, vim or emacs and has heard of floobits
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benwerd
I think we found the use case where email lists are better
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EHLOVader
it is collaborative coding, or for the coding exhibitionists
#
EHLOVader
like a programming peepshow
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benwerd
EHLOVader: I am an introverted coder who makes lots of typos and that scares me a lot. Also, "programming peepshow" sounds very unappealing.
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brianloveswords
Loqi is filibustering
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benwerd
But I can see the use in a business / startup environment!
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EHLOVader
benwerd, it is nice to just watch too
#
EHLOVader
had someone catch issues or typos quicker because he had an audience
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EHLOVader
kind of enjoyed it
#
EHLOVader
you can also do pair programming easier, it integrates with google hangouts
#
EHLOVader
would be great for a remote mentor mentee situation
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KevinMarks
interesting that one of the things the Quip people said was that character level live editing makes people nervous
#
KevinMarks
see, this wouldn't happen with Salmon
#
KevinMarks
it solves the thundering herd problem by being too hard to implement
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brianloveswords
haha KevinMarks
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 6 karma
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sparverius
brid-gy go home you're drunk
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_6a68
wat
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snarfed
ok, time to stop this. brb
#
aaronpk
why wont it stop
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aaronpk
i can restart loqi and he'll dump the buffer if there is one
Loqi joined the channel
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aaronpk
crap! ok bridgy is still sending them then
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snarfed
k, i'll stop bridgy for now
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aaronpk
wait i can just turn off irc notifications
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aaronpk
that doesn't involve code changes
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jonnybarnes
why are there so many mentions?
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benwerd
jonnybarnes: tantek woz 'ere
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jonnybarnes
benwerd huh?
#
benwerd
he invited 80+ people to an event that was POSSEd to Facebook
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benwerd
bridgy is doing its best to syndicate
#
aaronpk
ok i think it's stopped
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snarfed
i stopped bridgy sending rsvp webmentions
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aaronpk
mentions are still pouring in
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snarfed
true, s/stopped/am stopping/
#
snarfed
deploy is deploying
#
snarfed
thanks aaronpk. defense in layers
#
jonnybarnes
it was like a Loqi DDOS
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Loqi
who, me?
#
snarfed
he survived it!
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snarfed
apologies, all!
#
tantek
snarfed, I think it's Loqi that needs batch mention handling support since mentions could come from anywhere
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snarfed
yeah, i tentatively agreed in that issue. if anyone else weighs in there, we can move conclusions to the wiki
#
tantek
and I didn't realize Bridgy was backfeeding invitations! How are you even conveying that in the markup?
#
tantek
I assumed we'd only see Bridgy mentions/backfeed when people actually RSVPs
#
tantek
s/RSVPs/sent RSVPs
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: I assumed we'd only see Bridgy mentions/backfeed when people actually sent RSVPs
#
snarfed
yeah, they're webmentions with in-reply-to but no p-rsvp. discussion in that issue
#
tantek
well they're not RSVPs, so that's what's odd
#
tantek
also I noticed only a subset of the RSVPs are making it from the POSSE copy to the original
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snarfed
i temporarily turned off rsvp backfeed maybe 10m ago
#
snarfed
loqi's notifs are also turned off right now, so i could turn them back on
#
tantek
definitely
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snarfed
true, invitations aren't RSVPs. are they webmention worthy though? how should they be represented? i don't know :P
#
tantek
well, technically any "activity" on the POSSE copy is backfeed worthy to the original
#
tantek
and we have comments and RSVPs figured out already for that
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snarfed
k, turning back on. some rsvps may end up lost. i can try to backfill, but i may not prioritize it
#
tantek
but I totally forgot about 3rd party invitations
#
tantek
so… was that just a volume test failure then?
#
snarfed
got it. we'll discuss and try to capture tonight!
#
snarfed
volume test?
#
tantek
scaling test
#
snarfed
oh. load test?
#
snarfed
eh. a small unintentional load test maybe. everything passed it though. only loqi's UX arguably failed.
#
tantek
so it was a systems level load test then
#
tantek
yes, unintentional
#
tantek
I didn't expect the invitations to get backfed, my error
#
snarfed
no error!
#
tantek
but of course that makes sense that they would be, so the original could keep track of who has been invited (by any means)
#
snarfed
at least not from my perspective
#
snarfed
we'll think about it more
#
tantek
now that's going to bug me - figuring out the markup of what an "invitation post" looks like
#
tantek
nevermind how an implementation should handle it! (e.g. when idno receives such mentions)
#
tantek
brain hurts.
#
snarfed
eh. separate concerns. one part at a time.
#
tantek
oh dear invitations have many moving parts
#
tantek
even in the minimal case
#
tantek
1. Aaron posts an event
#
tantek
2. Ben posts an invitation to the event, inviting Caseorganic
#
tantek
3. Ben's site sends webmentions from that invitation post *both* to the event (on Aaron's site), and to Caseorganic (presumably a homepage webmention)
#
snarfed
yeah, nontrivial
#
tantek
4. Aaron's event post handles receiving that invitation webmention, using some heuristic as to whether to allow it or not (e.g. it could check if Ben is already invited, and the event allows attendees to invite others
#
tantek
or it could check if Ben is a friend, and the event is open to friends and friends of friends
#
tantek
or some other option - e.g. just allow all invitations for now)
#
snarfed
we need an event/rsvp/invite variant of SWAT0
#
snarfed
honestly, i might encourage you/us to capture really quick initial thoughts on the wiki, but not necessarily prioritize fully solving this right now
#
snarfed
unless someone honestly has enough time and interest
#
tantek
5. Caseorganic's site receives the webmention and adds it to the queue of site-level mentions. Upon retrieving the "source" of the webmention, it (somehow) recognizes it as invitation notification and provides Caseorganic the option to create an RSVP post in reply to the event post (and in reply to the invitation post!).
#
tantek
6. Caseorganic posts an RSVP, which replies to (hyperlinks with in-reply-to) Aaron's event post, and to Ben's invitation post.
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#
snarfed
yup, this is totally event SWAT0
#
snarfed
SWAT-E, if you will
#
tantek
7. Aaron's event post handles the RSVP mention as per already figured out on indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
#
tantek
8. Ben's invitation post is updated to note that the invitation was replied to and accepted/tentative/declined (according to the p-rsvp of the RSVP post of yes/maybe/no).
#
tantek
and that's the *minimal* case of an invitation post AFAIK
#
tantek
simplification encouraged!
#
snarfed
wikify it!
#
snarfed
i'll think it over
#
tantek
So I think we have all this figured out already (in terms of formats and protocols) EXCEPT for the bit in step 4 and 5 where the receiver of a webmention has to figure out that the source is an invitation post. I.e. what makes a post an "invitation"?
#
snarfed
right. we need a p-invite to parallel p-rsvp ?
#
tantek
maybe. or maybe a "p-invitee h-card"
#
tantek
that indicates the person being invited
#
tantek
and if a post has any of those then it is an invitation?
#
tantek
snarfed - is it possible that werd.io is only showing RSVPs from people who Ben is already "friends" with on FB?
#
benwerd
This'd be really handy. I'd like to be able to accept and be notified of invitations pointing at my homepage.
#
benwerd
tantek: some of the displayed people aren't my friends
#
tantek
benwerd - so why is it a subset of the respondents on the FB event?
#
benwerd
no clue
#
benwerd
it accepted what it was given, from what I can see
#
tantek
also the comments on the FB event don't seem to be making it back to the werd.io event
#
snarfed
tantek: the missing rsvps were probably dropped when i temporarily disabled webmentions to stop the flooding
#
snarfed
i can try to backfill them eventually
#
tantek
snarfed - no it was a subset even before you disabled it
#
snarfed
ah ok then
#
snarfed
re comments, yeah, bridgy doesn't backfeed event comments yet
#
tantek
so they're getting lost somewhere else along the bridgy / webmention / idno way
#
snarfed
feel free to file an FR!
#
benwerd
tantek's right, there were always some missing. I'm not sure why. Maybe those peoples' own Facebook settings?
#
tantek
snarfed - odd I guess I assumed that events would be treated by bridgy as a superset of "normal" posts!
#
snarfed
benwerd: possible. bridgy only send webmentions when it thinks something is fully public. that's not foolproof, but it tries hard
#
snarfed
tantek: yeah, sadly, they're different kinds of objects, at least in FB and G+
#
snarfed
comments are doable, i just have to fetch them separately, explicitly
#
tantek
snarfed, hopefully https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/48 is an easy fix
#
tantek
that's what's causing the strange looking commentary on aaronpk's event
#
snarfed
sure, should be easy
#
tantek.com
edited /event (+214) "start writing about invitations as if they're something that exists and we fully understand"
(view diff)
#
tantek
so quick sniff test - does this make sense to folks as invitee markup inside an invitation post? <a class="p-invitee h-card" href="http://caseorganic.com/">Amber Case</a>
#
snarfed
inside an h-event?
#
aaronpk
don't see why not
#
tantek
ok so that was the PREVIOUS (last year's) invitee markup proposal ;)
#
tantek
this is specifically inside a 3rd party post which itself is a reply to an event post
#
tantek
I think benwerd implemented (maybe by hand?) invitations on one of his events
#
tantek
difference: 1. invitations from the event (and thus organizer) vs.
#
tantek
2. invitations from someone else (attendee of the event, friend of the event organizer, etc.)
#
tantek
like how you can invite other people to events you're going to (or not) on FB
#
tantek
even if you're not the organizer of said event
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#
tantek
(what I just did to benwerd's event that caused all the Bridgy/Loqi chatter)
#
snarfed
on an unrelated note, this was bridgy's view of the webmention invite flood: http://goo.gl/JQ6CvB . entertaining
#
tantek
um, is that server CPU load?
#
tantek
(Y axis)
#
snarfed
heh, no, qps
#
snarfed
bridgy's
#
KevinMarks
hm talking of following people, if I search for me or tantek on google I get a sidebar card that has a 'get updates about' link
#
tantek
KevinMarks - does Google still think I was born in 1997?
#
KevinMarks
where did it say that?
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tantek
in their sidebar card when I searched on my given name
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tantek
because there was some reference to 1997 early on in the wikipedia article that they scraped
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tantek
but the Nixon thing last night took the cake
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tantek
unbelievable
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KevinMarks
I get different info cards for my different sites now
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tantek
KevinMarks, any theories on the Nixon error?
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KevinMarks
no, I can only think it was some knowledge graph cockup
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tantek
big data = big cockup?
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+2) "typo"
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tantek.com
created /invitation (+3524) "stub by copying from RSVP and with brainstorm of p-invitee h-card proposal, and minimal invitation post user flow"
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tantek.com
edited /responses (+97) "add invitation, link up reply types at top, add more, clarify example and origins"
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tantek.com
edited /event (+98) "/* Invitations */ link to new main article"
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tantek
snarfed, aaronpk, looks like last time we discussed invitations, i.e. directly from event posts, we came up with u-invitee (as evidence by benwerd's event post: http://werd.io/2013/an-indieweb-catchup-over-food-and-drink )
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tantek
and http://indiewebcamp.com/event#Invitations (to which I just added the class variants in addition to rel=invitee)
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KevinMarks
what should I mention as thing of the week on TWiT?
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KevinMarks
homebrew website club?
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snarfed
computers?
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snarfed
they're great. except when they're not.
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snarfed
sorry, couldn't resist
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snarfed
sure! see if we can overflow the office tonight :P
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pdurbin
KevinMarks: you could mention http://dhtmlconf.com ;)
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tantek
KevinMarks - definitely HWC
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KevinMarks
also Model View Culture
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Alkhemist
Indieweb on TwiG... nice job
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tantek.com
edited /event (+9) "comment out link to nonexistent uf invitation page for now"
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tantek
Alkhemist really? When did TwiG happen? URL?
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Alkhemist
KevinMarks is on there now. http://live.twit.tv but he's done now. Should be available for download soon
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KevinMarks
just mentioned homebrew website club
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KevinMarks
you can rewind the live broadcast on one of the sites
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tantek
oh nice!
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KevinMarks
I also mentioned your Nixon glitch
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benwerd
KevinMarks: Model View Culture should be excellent. Looking forward to the launch tomorrow.
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tantek
KevinMarks - thanks - what was the response like? I guess that definitely counts as This Week in *Google*