#indiewebcamp 2014-02-06

2014-02-06 UTC
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@cstanhope RT @t: Sign-up page is up for the next week's Homebrew Website Club meetup @MozSF & @ESRIPDX: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4US1) (twitter.com/_/status/431218113992876032)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (+84) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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@snarfed_org RT @t: Sign-up page is up for the next week's Homebrew Website Club meetup @MozSF & @ESRIPDX: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4US1) (twitter.com/_/status/431222738267545600)
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tantek.com edited /Events (-70) "shorten intro, move TOC to history" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+18) "intro tweak" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1) "move Upcoming events to top, as most common use case for the page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+255) "NYC dates are set" (view diff)
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@OnTheWebz RT @t: Sign-up page is up for the next week's Homebrew Website Club meetup @MozSF & @ESRIPDX: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4US1) (twitter.com/_/status/431293861273821184)
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+3877) "update with IndieWebCamp actual camp structure page with known information" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+0) "2014" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014 (+29) "Previously" (view diff)
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wagle dietrich: ha! your name was on this smoking gun too (which killed my plugin): https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=381519
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wagle someday I'll feel comfortable debugging plugins
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aaronparecki.com created /Template:indieauth-todo (+276) "Created page with "<div style="background: #fffbe3" (view diff)
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Loqi padding: 4px
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Loqi border: 1px #faeead solid;"> Note: This document is out of date, and needs to be updated to reflect the latest progress on IndieAut..."
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:indieauth-todo (-4) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb-messaging (+20) "add todo" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (+20) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieauth-authorization-brainstorming (+20) (view diff)
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Jihaisse Bonjour
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Jihaisse Hello
friedcell, jonnybarnes, grantmacken, melvster, eschnou, BjornW, pfefferle, icco, Sebastien-L, barnabywalters, bnvk, bnvk_, glennjones, adactio and pasevin joined the channel
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jonnybarnes updated my micropub implementation to use the state parameter properly, i.e. not just set it to abc123
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Jeena damn it finally I am getting emails on webmentions even on / but something is still not right, I had to use gmail to do so because I didn't get it to work with my own server yet :-(
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jonnybarnes Jeena: are you trying to get your website to email you when someone webmentions you?
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jonnybarnes some more work done on my micropub, when something tries to post to my site via the micropub API and an error occurs I actually respond with a proper error now.
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Jeena yes and with a little help of a friend I now even can use my own mailserver instead of gmail
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jonnybarnes Currently all the repsonses use the HTTP 400 status code
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jonnybarnes not sure if thats the right status code to use though
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jonnybarnes sounds cool Jeena
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jonnybarnes I've given up ever trying to get mail working on my vps
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Jeena as far as I know that is how it was specified but I don't quite think it is the right status code for everything either
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jonnybarnes looking at the wikipedia article 4XX are client errors, and 5XX are server errors
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jonnybarnes so like, if an incorrect oauth token is sent with the request, then I think a 4XX code should be returned, if something just randomly borks on my server when trying to save the note then a 5XX should be returned
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jonnybarnes I think
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Jeena yes that is true, but if for example the source page doesn't have the backlink, the request is still semantically correct and could send the appropriate status code 422 or something, don't quite remember
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jonnybarnes 422: "The request was well-formed but was unable to be followed due to semantic errors."
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Jeena yeah
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jonnybarnes this whole micropub thing is actually quite cool though
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Jeena do you have a link to what micropub is?
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jonnybarnes http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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Jeena hm the wordpress plugin doesn't resolve relative paths for webmentions http://bupk.es/blog/772/#comments
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jonnybarnes so if you added support on your site, in theory you'd be able to log into https://jonnybarnes.net.notes/new and post a new note using my UI
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jonnybarnes or if someone released an iPhone app your just point it at your API endpoint and away you go
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Jeena oh that sounds cool
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Jeena but hm isn't it like posting via Atom?
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jonnybarnes you can *post* via Atom? I though it was a format for consuming content.
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Jeena http://atompub.org/
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jonnybarnes I think the reason we have "micropub" is at its simplest it can be implemented with just HTML forms
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Jeena yeah, like pingback vs. webmention
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barnabywalters is http://atompub.org/ a joke?
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barnabywalters it has “free online dating” links at the bottom
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barnabywalters and contains no spec or explanation of how atompub works, as far as I can tell
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Jeena uhm I have no idea, it was the first link I got from DuckDuckAndGo
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Jeena Btw. the postman was here today and brought my Degree Certificate! https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1013471_10152571615862678_1700676003_n.jpg
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Jeena now I finally am a official academic :-p even though I was born into a workers family ^^
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barnabywalters Jeena: yay!
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Loqi giggles
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barnabywalters congratulations
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Jeena thanks :)
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gRegorLove Pro-tip: when logging in to the wiki, enter your full domain. I left off the .com and it found no rel=me links, haha
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Loqi ahahaha
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gRegorLove Why no, I haven't had coffee yet . . .
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Jeena Sometimes I wish I knew how Loqi is implemented.
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Jihaisse http://obsession.nouvelobs.com/hacker-ouvert/20140206.OBS5374/condamne-pour-une-recherche-google-le-blogueur-consterne.html
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Jihaisse if you read french
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Jihaisse quick resume : a guy is guilty for downloading pdf files found with google
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pfefferle barnabywalters does the mf2-parser convert all urls into absolute urls automatically or do I have to do anything for that?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: the latest version of php-mf2 should make all URLs absolute, relative to the URL you pass into Mf2\parse($html, $url), taking <base> into account
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barnabywalters there are some (spec-compliant) conditions under which things you might expect to be treated as URLs are not
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barnabywalters e.g. <span class="u-url">/notes/1000</span> would not be resolved
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pfefferle ah ok
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pfefferle then I think i have to update the lib...
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pfefferle thanks
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gregorlove.com edited /pingback (+625) "/* How do I test sending */ comment on ambiguity and what worked for me." (view diff)
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pfefferle barnabywalters do the url have to be the root url or can it be any url (with any kind of params/sub-folders/...)?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: you should pass in the URL you used to retrieve the HTML
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pfefferle ah ok
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pfefferle but the url is only used for rel-urls?
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pfefferle if not, it could cause some strange things with proxys like brid.gy
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barnabywalters pfefferle: what do you mean “only used for rel-urls”?
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pfefferle relative
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pfefferle relative urls
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barnabywalters oh — yes, that is the case
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pfefferle thanks
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barnabywalters you mean if there was a twitter.com-relative URL within a shimmed post on a bridgy URL?
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barnabywalters IMO it’s the job of the proxy to deal with making those URLs absolute
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pfefferle you are right!
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pfefferle I had a look at my plugin and it seems that I already used the latest version... only forgot to set the base url...
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barnabywalters apparently that’s a common mistake to make
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pfefferle :)
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barnabywalters I should add a function to php-mf2 which you just pass a URL to and it fetches the HTML it’s self
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Loqi I agree
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barnabywalters it could also detect whether or not php-mf2-shim is present, and shim facebook/twitter appropriately
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pfefferle hmmm I am not sure about that... because that means you have to also add the parser stuff...
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pfefferle and that could differ between sites...
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pfefferle or servers
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pfefferle some don't have curl, ... and so on
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barnabywalters it’s easy enough to fall back to file_get_contents if curl isn’t available
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pfefferle but that is deactivated on a lot of servers isn't it?
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barnabywalters the option to parse manually from HTML + URL will always be there, this just gives another entry point
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barnabywalters pfefferle: so how do people who use those servers fetch external HTML to parse at the moment?
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pfefferle your point :)
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pfefferle providing both seems to be a good solution
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pfefferle the complete html-parser and as it is now
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barnabywalters added https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/41
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barnabywalters switching locations, bbiab
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pfefferle me too
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dietrich wagle: spent a lot of years in that codebase :)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters - that's pretty funny about atompub.org and the strange dating site links on it. Maybe atompub.org has been compromised?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk and yes, the idea with micropub is to be as close to an HTML form as possible
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@helloanselm Although the web *never* was decentralized, we should start doing it now: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-02/06/tim-berners-lee-reclaim-the-web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431486818576785408)
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tantek maybe we should ask TimBL to set an example and move his home page to his own domain (rather than being on w3.org)
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tantek http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/
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tantek https://twitter.com/timberners_lee
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@EHLOVader RT @helloanselm: Although the web *never* was decentralized, we should start doing it now: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-02/06/tim-berners-lee-reclaim-the-web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431501139302154240)
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Jeena Some thoughts about a Notes-Reader https://jeena.net/indie-notes-reader
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@jeena Some thoughts about a #IndieWeb Notes-Reader https://jeena.net/indie-notes-reader (twitter.com/_/status/431542063675748352)
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: very interesting thoughts. There have been murmurs about having an indie-feed reader (http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader). While reading your post I also thought of micropub, where I could post a reply to your note through some comment box on your site, but then it uses micropub to post it to mine simultaneously!
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EHLOVader Jeena, do notes have rss?
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EHLOVader cause you could just use http://selfoss.aditu.de/
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Jeena most of those I found did
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EHLOVader oh but you are talking about the title issues
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EHLOVader ofc
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EHLOVader I will read this, instead of skimming, then return
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader sorry for treating the first few sentences and title as a TL;DR
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EHLOVader before I get there, I might also suggest yahoo pipes
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Jeena KartikPrabhu I mention it as the second point of the list down there
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Jeena yeah, all of this are 3rd party things which kind of are not what I am looking for
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Jeena at the bottom, I mention that I want syndication via Microformats instead of RSS/Atom
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EHLOVader but if you take that and run a search with it, I bet you could find a tool that you host to do similar/same
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Jeena but we're not there yet
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EHLOVader ooh
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EHLOVader selfoss has a concept called spouts
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EHLOVader german site sets up spout for email it looks like http://www.aditu.de/2011/10/17/selfoss-eigene-datenquellen-erstellen/
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EHLOVader so you can differ the feed reading function slightly, for a spout specific on the type of data in that feed
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EHLOVader they have a bunch... https://github.com/SSilence/selfoss/tree/master/spouts
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Jeena that is kind of cool yeah
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EHLOVader the interface looks slick too
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EHLOVader I am looking forward to using it
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EHLOVader is still in the process of sovereignity setup which uses selfoss
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EHLOVader slowed down to pay more attention to other life things...
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader I would probably extend selfoss for lots of other things though... like podcasts
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EHLOVader soundcloud
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EHLOVader mixcloud
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EHLOVader etc... so an indieweb one would be useful
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Jeena It is still soooo weird with the backslash in namespaces in PHP
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EHLOVader lol
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aaronpk lol yeah
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EHLOVader were you born and raised on *nix?
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EHLOVader or just thrive there now
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Jeena My first computer was a Amiga 500
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Jeena I did some AmigaBASIC programming, mostly very small games
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EHLOVader backslashes remind me of this http://m.xkcd.com/727/
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Jeena but after tow years It wasn't fun anymore and I didn't have a computer untill I was 24 or something
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EHLOVader wow
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EHLOVader welcome back
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Jeena and then I tried to run Linux as my first OS but the freakin Modem didn't have Linux drivers so I had to use Windows 98
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EHLOVader then growing up on old OS or slow internet reminds me of this http://www.quickmeme.com/img/26/2618819aadac824b5189dd5cc0e9e69eb7e6fe68834566a0a47fc25b4e87f15b.jpg
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Jeena hehe this was back in 2002, I'm 35 now and yeah
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader then I am sure there is a matrix meme for what I am doing now
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EHLOVader you see sentences and life stories, I see meme text, stock photos and doge
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Jeena haha
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EHLOVader that is how I go through life, through a series of memes
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EHLOVader so yeah, I bet selfoss would work great for indieweb stuff
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EHLOVader what sorts of feeds are there, way more than just notes right
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Jeena I'm trying to get better at memes but it is hard http://www.memecenter.com/jeena/posts mostly I only get 5-7 likes, sometimes none ^^
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Jeena the normal feeds are blog posts
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EHLOVader I use memes
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EHLOVader and xkcd
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EHLOVader for everything
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader reaction gifs are also big on my list of things
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EHLOVader here is a resource reactiongifsarchive.imgur.com
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EHLOVader a shorter one too http://imgur.com/a/9CMRK
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EHLOVader cinemegraphs http://imgur.com/a/ulROg
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EHLOVader moar http://imgur.com/a/tpvIL
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EHLOVader even moar http://imgur.com/a/Ewfb9 but mostly just loops
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jonnybarnes btw Jeena, is your email actually "spam@jeenaparadies.net" or is that a subtle get lost?
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Jeena no that is actually my email, for historical reasons ^^
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EHLOVader lol
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Jeena I had info@jeenaparadies.net as my main one and spam@jeenaparadies.net for stuff I would just try out like Facebook, Twitter, etc. sadly after a year or so I was so dependent of it that it became my main one ^^
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EHLOVader you own the domain right?
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Jeena yeah
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EHLOVader can't you just change it
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EHLOVader to anything
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EHLOVader ever
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EHLOVader I assume you have a catchall too
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EHLOVader right
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Jeena yeah I can but I am using it as a login to everywhere
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EHLOVader oh right
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Jeena no, no catchall too much spam
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EHLOVader those are immutable
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Jeena yeah kind of
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EHLOVader o_0
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EHLOVader well, I use different email for each account
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EHLOVader user+domain@gmail.com
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EHLOVader plan on using similar at my domain
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EHLOVader may simplify it to just (their)domain@(my)domain.com
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Jeena yeah, I should have done that too but after some time you just give up ^^
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EHLOVader I went back through and did it
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EHLOVader found lots of sites that didn't allow it
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EHLOVader sent them an RFC schpeal
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Jeena hm that is uncool
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EHLOVader https://gist.github.com/EHLOVader/4531693
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EHLOVader it usually didn't change much
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EHLOVader I thought of creating a public shaming site, like plaintextoffenders
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Jeena hehe
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tantek.com created /feed_reader). (+25) "r due to IRC mention and sloppy IRC log autolinking" (view diff)
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EHLOVader some sites wouldn't allow it because of naivity (and regex), others allowed it but using it broke parts of the site (like logging back in, or password recovery), and others insisted that the dissallowing it was a feature, or that they simply didn't support special chars on their site
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aaronpk tantek: lol crap. need better regex.
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EHLOVader how did you get that?
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EHLOVader the broke page
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EHLOVader or was it even
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EHLOVader nah, nevermind
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-06/line/1391722958
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tantek nice post Jeena!
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Jeena thanks
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EHLOVader would that feed reader page be the place to toss selfoss?
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EHLOVader I didn't see it there, but I haven't searched
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EHLOVader which means I shouldn't be asking yet
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EHLOVader but it doesn't exist
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EHLOVader adds that to the list
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tantek EHLOVader is selfoss something you use?
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EHLOVader not yet but I will
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EHLOVader if that makes sense
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EHLOVader won't add it till i do
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EHLOVader won't be able to add it until I have soverign and the website up anyway
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EHLOVader no indieauth no edit
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EHLOVader is that generally a thing you prefer, for people to use it before they add it
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EHLOVader obviously it prevents stubs, but it could prolong discussion on it right?
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tantek EHLOVader - it's a useful filter to help focus discussion on actual practical things
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EHLOVader take a look
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EHLOVader it looks more useful than status.net
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EHLOVader self hosted even
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tantek so much out there is what people "talk about" rather than use, that it gets in the way of what's actually useful
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tantek so better to just ignore things that no one has actually used in the community
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EHLOVader which is what indieweb was about i thought
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EHLOVader owning the data, owning the tools
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tantek EHLOVader - necessary but insufficient
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tantek selfdogfood is also a key part of indieweb
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tantek see home page
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tantek at very top: http://indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek "The IndieWeb effort is different from previous efforts/communities: "
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EHLOVader well then I can't assist you in most of the things I had mentioned that you wanted me to add
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EHLOVader or the ones I thought would be useful, like unicode short urls
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tantek if *someone* here is selfdogfooding it - that's sufficient
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EHLOVader or domai.nr
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tantek but no one is
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EHLOVader I haven't used domai.nr to buy a domain yet, the sites it forwards to seem reputable
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EHLOVader and unicode domain is in my future but not there yet
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EHLOVader hosted email options exist, and I know an article that has t least five others you didn't have on your site... ones that use your domain, but are third party hosted
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tantek I use domai.nr to look for domains all the time
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tantek haven't used a unocide domain
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EHLOVader and I barely use the encrypted email service at torguard, I use the other services more
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tantek right, it's a good filter. do you use it or does someone else here use it
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EHLOVader that is fine then
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EHLOVader I have nothing to add to the discussion then
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EHLOVader most everything I have done is still just researching options
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EHLOVader and refining the methods and getting it all in line
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EHLOVader will be months before I have dogfood for any of it
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tantek I think if you characterize it as research that's probably ok
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Jeena btw. if you guys read my posts and see some typos or weird grammar and if you're not too lazy to do it, I would appreciate if you told me so I can get better at english (like I described in https://jeena.net/pronouncing-j )
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tantek as long as you make it clear when you're documenting it that it's just research - and explicitly state you don't know of anyone here actually using it
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tantek that way when others find it on the wiki they are properly warned
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EHLOVader gotcha
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EHLOVader what do you use for RSS then tantek ?
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EHLOVader home grown?
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tantek I don't use RSS
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EHLOVader have you peeked at the extensibility of selfoss which i mentioned or linked earlier
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EHLOVader I see
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tantek and haven't since Google Reader shut down
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EHLOVader interesting
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tantek sidefile based solutions are a dead-end IMO
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tantek RSS is a sidefile
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Jeena apropos short-urls/domains, I hate them! Nobody needs them anymore after twitter turned on t.co for every url.
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tantek Jeena - there are still print and other use-cases
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tantek for short URLs
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tantek short URLs are more usable than QR codes for examples
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Jeena yeah ok, everywhere you can't click on a link there is a case for short urls
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tantek Jeena, but you are correct re: Twitter. POSSE links on Twitter should use your full domain
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Jeena I made my POSSE links really short, 13 chars, and what did Twitter do? they replaced it with a 23 chars long t.co domain ^^
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EHLOVader lol
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tantek EHLOVader, in addition to working selfdogfood things, we document our own personal brainstorms (what we are in the middle of building ourselves), and research of past techniques. The key is that we always distinguish between them.
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Jeena I think I will go back to the normal url so instead of jeena.net/n12 https://jeena.net/notes/12
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tantek Jeena, yeah, my POSSE links were pretty short too :/ (though you have to include the https:// ;)
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EHLOVader their blog says that twitter should only be wrapping 19char and greater links with t.co. but that was 2 years ago, when it was added
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Jeena I have a solution for it, jeena.net/n12 redirects to https://jeena.net/n12 which then redirects to https://jeena.net/notes/12
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tantek works on splitting /feed_reader
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Jeena I wonder whay there is no mention of RSS/Atom on /feed_reader
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tantek they are mentioned on /feeds
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EHLOVader is there a format for the feeds to offer reply urls?
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EHLOVader is that how indiweb works
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EHLOVader rel= sort of links
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tantek EHLOVader, what's the use case you are trying to solve? That's how the indieweb works.
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EHLOVader it is
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EHLOVader ok
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EHLOVader I wasn't sure
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tantek Formats are merely a means to satisfy use-cases.
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Jeena you can just do autodiscovery for webmentions on the source url
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tantek Questions about formats outside the context of a use-case are usually not interesting.
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EHLOVader use case was reading a feed and having a url to send replies to
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EHLOVader but if replies are still just webmentions then it is irrelevant
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Jeena yeah they are
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EHLOVader I guess I was just thinking of this.. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4685.txt
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EHLOVader something i found searching about rss/atom and replies
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tantek.com edited /reader (+4255) "start with indieweb reader information from feed_reader page and a bit more prose" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /readers (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /RSS (+12) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /feed (+13) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader () "(-3714) move indieweb specific reader thoughts and brainstorms to a separate reader page" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena - I added a mention of RSS and Atom in the dfn of feed_reader
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tantek looks at RFC4685
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Jeena yeah that is good
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tantek EHLOVader - ah yes, that's earlier work (that who knows if anyone ever adopted)
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tantek the 'in-reply-to' there is what rel=in-reply-to and u-in-reply-to was based on
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tantek.com edited /in-reply-to (+178) "explicitly note source of research" (view diff)
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tantek EHLOVader - yeah - 4685 was documented in the #microformats page on rel=in-reply-to
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tantek see: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-in-reply-to
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tantek Jeena, I added your post to the brainstorming section on readers: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Brainstorming
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jeena.net edited /feed_reader (+247) "/* Examples */ added TTRSS and news Owncloud" (view diff)
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Jeena ok cool
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (+6) "link cleanup - separate Google Reader as old" (view diff)
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jeena.net edited /feed_reader (+75) "/* Examples */ added NetNewsWire" (view diff)
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jeena.net edited /feed_reader (+2) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (+883) "add Replying section as problem with feed readers, attempted RFC solution, and actual deployed indieweb solution" (view diff)
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tantek EHLOVader - I added a section on Replying documenting what you found and hopefully providing more direct documentation as to how that works on the indieweb: http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader#Replying