#indiewebcamp 2014-02-07

2014-02-07 UTC
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Jeena hehe this guy is quite funny actually https://twitter.com/iamdevloper/status/431578735285133312 and he speaks the truth!
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@indieboxproject Added #thedaywefightback banner to the http://indieboxproject.org/blog/ site. Maybe you should, too? https://thedaywefightback.org/ #indieweb #indiebox (twitter.com/_/status/431587004820631552)
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tantek looks like Tumblr is enacting some "BigCo" annoying UI changes
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tantek just got TOSblocked going to a Tumblr from a Google search result
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tantek and then if you're not logged in, they now only show you partial tag results, with a sign-up/login block: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/i-fight-for-the-users
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tantek so Tumblr's sleek UX is crumbling, likely due to new Yahoo owners
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KevinMarks you'd think they'd learn from flickr login integration
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tantek or: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/hashtag
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tantek it's funny, all we have to do to make the indieweb succeed, and win, is to build it.
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tantek the silos will self-implode all on their own
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tantek they've also added "infinite" scroll to individual home pages
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snarfed out of curiosity, for those of you here who dislike infinite scroll, do you have any posts you like that describe why not?
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tantek snarfed - there was a flurry of them when Twitter first introduced infinite scroll
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tantek if only we had a time-based blog search engine to find them
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snarfed ok, i can try to search for that
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snarfed true! google has some time-based tools, but they're pretty basic
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@kevinmarks it's concerning to be ‘reliant on big companies, and one big server’” -@timberners_lee http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-02/06/tim-berners-lee-reclaim-the-web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431594595512631296)
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sparverius infinite scroll is okay if they're smart about it but they're often not
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KevinMarks they used to have a really good time-based search, then twitter were dicks about the firehose
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@joshuajuran RT @kevinmarks: it's concerning to be ‘reliant on big companies, and one big server’” -@timberners_lee http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-02/06/tim-berners-lee-reclaim-the-web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431595002632761344)
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snarfed sparverius: agreed! but i haven't read or thought about it deeply, and many people are very anti, so i'm curious
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snarfed i'll find some reading material
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tantek looks like infinite scroll might only be for newer Tumblrs - they haven't messed with older ones yet
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@KatiMichel RT @kevinmarks: it's concerning to be ‘reliant on big companies, and one big server’” -@timberners_lee http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-02/06/tim-berners-lee-reclaim-the-web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431595399384535041)
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tantek sparverius - do you have any citations for articles that say how to be "smart about it" [infinite scroll] ?
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tantek snarfed - my opinions on it are mixed, have seen it done ok and done poorly for sure, but haven't spent enough time analyzing why for each.
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snarfed understood
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tantek mostly I'm opposed to too much "app-iness" on what is other static content, as the vast majority of such attempts do nothing but slow down (and thus harm) the user experience drastically.
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KevinMarks this is fairly good on when to use it http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/
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tantek s/other/otherwise
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Loqi tantek meant to say: mostly I'm opposed to too much "app-iness" on what is otherwise static content, as the vast majority of such attempts do nothing but slow down (and thus harm) the user experience drastically.
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snarfed thanks KevinMarks!
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snarfed ok. that post makes sense to me. tl;dr: it's reasonable when the user's task is reading/skimming a flat list of items, but not for most other tasks
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snarfed (and modulo decent performance, design, etc as usual)
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aaronpk people are literally skiing through the streets in portland now http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/12353679573/
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snarfed whoa
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2013/05/03/infinite-scrolling-get-bottom/
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snarfed thanks KartikPrabhu! sounds like a similar conclusion. it's a bad idea for goal-oriented tasks, but maybe ok for simple consumption
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sparverius tantek: no but there's three things off the top of my head that i can tell you
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sparverius 1. aggressive memory management
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sparverius 2. no content at the footer of the page. ever.
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snarfed yup, 2 is the dumbest offender. makes me laugh whenever i see it
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tantek agreed - 2 is hilarious (and sad)
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tantek aaronpk !!!
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KartikPrabhu my main problem is from the UX point of view is the loss of positional context. Even for simple consumption, there is no way to tell where I am, or how to get back/skip ahead to somewhere i might want to be
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sparverius 3. start the load for the next next section as soon as the user scrols onto the next section
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sparverius KartikPrabhu: well infinite scroll is good for disorganized media consumption
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sparverius ie tumblr cat pictures
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tantek sparverius my big complaint is that infinite scroll defeats the ability to use a URL to actually point to something
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KartikPrabhu also what tantek just said
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tantek that street skiing photo is amazing
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sparverius you can solve that actually by updating the url on the fly among other things
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KevinMarks http://xkcd.com/1309/
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sparverius and fwiw a lot of other sites that are "paged based" are just as bad
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sparverius for example: hacker news
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tantek aaronpk - let me know when you see snowmobiles on the streets!
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sparverius go to the "third" page and then post the url here
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aaronpk nobody has snowmobiles here heh
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sparverius and then in a few minutes or whatever it's set at, try clicking it
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tantek sparverius - agreed, pagination URLs are typically broken as well
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snarfed tantek: you mean, position within a list/feed of items?
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snarfed sparverius: agreed. updating the URL during infinite scroll isn't perfect, but it definitely helps
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tantek KevinMarks - yes, that!
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sparverius the linking thing is not really an issue with infinitie scrolling imo, it's an issue with retaining state of navigation among dynamic content
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KartikPrabhu agreed with pagination flaws. On a more constructive note does anyone have an idea for a good UX for a large list of items then?
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sparverius also a good way to test if your infinite scrolling sucks
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KartikPrabhu or is infinite scroll/pagination the best we have so far
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sparverius load up ubuntu onto a laptop with 1GB RAM, install firefox, put a weight on the spacebar, come back in 20 minutes. if firefox is exploding then you're doing it wrong.
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sparverius KartikPrabhu: it's overused
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KartikPrabhu sparverius: yes. agreed completely
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KevinMarks pagination that actually fits the screen is not done enough
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sparverius it's only good where the content is only linked together positionally by time or other non-specific metric
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sparverius otherwise imo it's confusing and bad ui
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KevinMarks pagination where you have to scroll each page is weird, but the default
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sparverius good uses: twitter, tumblr
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sparverius bad uses: facebook (they fuck with the order of things on the page So Much)
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek KartikPrabhu - now that is the right question: "On a more constructive note does anyone have an idea for a good UX for a large list of items then?"
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snarfed agreed
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KevinMarks pinterest does it well
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KartikPrabhu :) I am thinking in the context of website articles "blogposts" notes and such
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sparverius oh infinite scrolling is fine as long as you give the option to "scroll" to a position in the infinite scrolling in the url and it remains largely static
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snarfed on a selfish note, i have infinite scroll on my site, http://snarfed.org/ . i don't feel strongly about it, but i like it. i'm open to feedback!
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sparverius like no "priority" sorts or anything based on tons of variables (FACEBOOK >:( for example)
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snarfed heh, good point
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sparverius snarfed: it fails the space bar test
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sparverius im already up to 500MB RAM for a chrome tab
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sparverius ah looks like chrome GCed it down to about 350
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snarfed sparverius: yeah, and the memory usage number alone isn't really a good criteria
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sparverius it started at 90MB
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snarfed physical vs virtual, etc
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sparverius well yeah
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snarfed browsers are usually really aggressive about using memory
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sparverius but i have a chromebook
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snarfed actual user-visible performance is what you want to look at. render latency, scroll latency, etc
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sparverius yeah
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KartikPrabhu sparverius: agreed on the staitc ordering point. But I feel infinite scrolling is also bad unless each piece on content is small. As in tweets/notes OK but long posts are BAD
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sparverius fwiw it's just that some media heavy infinite scrolling and dynamic loading is really bad
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sparverius KartikPrabhu: i dont know about that
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sparverius i havent really thought too much about that
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sparverius i should though
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Loqi fo sho
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KevinMarks the blogger dynamic layouts are interesting attempts
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: those are so much harder to customize though. every blogger looks the same. Which might again be a bad idea. "One size fits all". Also not prog. enhanced
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KartikPrabhu In a similar vein, Eric Meyer (2004) on how reverse-chronology is bad for blogs: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/200403.html#d29t1415
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KevinMarks they're not perfect, no. and them punting on mobile was lame
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KevinMarks also, several of them only work well on image-based content
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KevinMarks but they are interesting variants to start from
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Jeena I'm not sure I'm with Meyer here, that is what hyperlinks are for, it doesn't matter if you relate to one of your former blogposts or to a extern blogpost/wiki/news/whatever, that is the web, it isn't cronological, it is a tree with many nodes
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gRegorLove I thought it was a series of tubes?
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gRegorLove I know it's not a truck, though.
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Jeena hehe
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: That is exactly why I agree with Meyer. Having Related/Suggested Posts at the bottom is a way to provide that UX
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KartikPrabhu as an example
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Jeena no, I don't agree, you need to set the context at the top
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Jeena and you do it with links, so people who are familiar can just skip the links
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tantek is this for a home page or permalink?
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Jeena blog post
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Jeena ah hm
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Jeena good question
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tantek :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: traditionally the homepage would just be a long reverse-chronology of posts
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Jeena I don't show full articles on my homepage so in my mind everybody comes from google to one blog post
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KartikPrabhu i think that is the context. Blog presentation has changed much from 2004 of course
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tantek KartikPrabhu - indeed, I think we are stuck with that for home pages / streams as an expectation, from blogs, Twitter, Facebook, etc.
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tantek Jeena - I like to give full content on my home page so anyone on their mobile can simply load one URL and then read through to the bottom to see recent updates completely.
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tantek without having to click into and out of each permalink
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tantek (which is much more annoying on mobile especially)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that is a good reason!
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Jeena people used to go through all the blogs they read daily manually, it wouldn't just make sense to force them to scroll all the way down to see if you wrote something new
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tantek Jeena - indeed! Hence newest on top :)
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KartikPrabhu Jeena tantek: actually just a little scroll would have led you to Meyer's attempt at a UX solution http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/200403.html#d31
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gRegorLove I keep a simple one-post view. The only "stream" is the archives page. But when you hit the home page, one post.
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gRegorLove I like the simplicity of that.
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gRegorLove When I add notes, that will change slightly. Most likely just a separate page as that stream, though.
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tantek gRegorLove - interesting - a one-post "most recent posts"
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tantek KartikPrabhu - yeah I read Meyer's post when he wrote it ~10 years ago - I wonder if his thoughts have changed since on the matter.
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KartikPrabhu I haven't found one solution that I like the most so at the moment the Homepage has a blurb and 5 most recent
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gRegorLove I'm drawing a blank on the name, but a friend remarked that it reminded them of an older blogging site. Maybe it was diaryland? I don't recall.
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Jeena I had one post (most resent) + 4 posts with teasers + list with 20 titles in my old blog
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: you're definitely not alone in with this solution http://trentwalton.com/ comes to mind
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gRegorLove Yeah, I think it's gaining popularity.
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gRegorLove I appreciate that Trent also likes big fonts. :)
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Jeena mine was http://jeenaparadies.net/weblog/ at the bottom left some teasers and right the list
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tantek so the problem with Eric's approach (or perhaps dated context) is that it assumes a returning reader would want to pick back up where they left and then catch up forward.
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Jeena that is what IndieAuth or cookies are for ;)
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tantek whereas with Twitter, and FB updates and general overwhelming with small updates we've learned that more often people just want to get a quick *recent* update
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tantek rather than try to comprehensively keep up with everything they follow (no one has time for that any more)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: true for twitter/FB but for long-form posts?
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tantek so when you shift from "want to see everything" to "want to just catch up" then the design focus changes
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tantek KartikPrabhu - I don't know if it's as true for long-form posts.
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tantek I suppose we'll find out when we start building our own indieweb readers.
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Jeena does anyone of you guys actually go to the homepages of the blogs you read and try to find something there?
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gRegorLove Instapaper/feed reader for keeping up with long-form content
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Jeena or do you just "google" and get to some post in the middle of the blog?
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: I do that all the time. That is how i re-found Meyer for this conversation :)
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tantek Jeena - I often catch up with (load context for) individuals by going to their home page and reading what's new before chatting / meeting with them.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: you don't seem use pagination or have an archive page for past articles! Is that for some particular reason?
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tantek and yeah - I find abbreviated long form posts pretty annoying that I typically skim/ignore them.
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Jeena you guys clearly live in a different universe, that is what Facebook is for :-p
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tantek KartikPrabhu - I don't have pagination no. I do have archive pages but they are unlinked.
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tantek I have not yet implemented navigation link UI.
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KartikPrabhu I see.
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KartikPrabhu Also, for some reason, I don't have interesting people on my Facebook :P
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Jeena tantek it depends on the abbriviation, or better if it is a real summary, not a automatic one then I like it, if it is just the truncated content then it is useless
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KartikPrabhu so I just remember people by their homepage urls... I am weird that way
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tantek Jeena - yes, that.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - that's not weird at all. That's what all of us would do before MySpace/Facebook/Twitter
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Jeena that is true, I almost forgot that times
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tantek do a search for "hello my url is"
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tantek image search
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Jeena back then I was involved in the german (webdesign) blogosphere and got tons of really good comments and stuff
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Jeena hehe
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KartikPrabhu i don't remember a time when comments were mostly good :|
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Jeena over 70 on topic comments in a kind of flamy blogpost about Firefox vs. Opera http://jeenaparadies.net/weblog/2005/jan/firefox-vs-opera
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Jeena almost 10 years later and I am using Firefox as my main browser and don't even test in Opera anymore
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Jeena the best part ist the picture my brother did for this post haha http://jeenaparadies.net/img/weblog/2005/firefox-vs-opera.png
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+368) "/* Working On */ mobile recent articles box" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+516) "/* mobile home template header icons folders */ incremental implementation plan and why" (view diff)
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@hpsaturn amantes del escribir: "La forma en q escribo para el doctorado" http://mutabit.com/mutabit/static/personas/offray/blog/output/posts/la-forma-en-que-escribo-para-el-doctorado.html #LEO #BibTeX #Zotero #IndieWeb https://twitter.com/hpsaturn/status/431614464937693184/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/431614464937693184)
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@jeena @tobiastom did you know that Sascha Lobo kind of is working with something like the #IndieWeb http://saschalobo.c... https://jeena.net/notes/69 (twitter.com/_/status/431614545250230273)
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Jeena damn you Loqi I'm just testing!
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Loqi :)
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KartikPrabhu I constantly used Loqi's instant feedback to test my webmentions!
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@jeena @tobiastom did you know that Sascha Lobo kind of is working with something like the #IndieWeb http://saschalobo.c... https://jeena.net/notes/76 (twitter.com/_/status/431615548548722688)
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acegiak hey. which page on the wiki should i list whisperfollow under?
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acegiak feedreaders or readers?
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@offrayLC RT @hpsaturn: amantes del escribir: "La forma en q escribo para el doctorado" http://mutabit.com/mutabit/static/personas/offray/blog/output/posts/la-forma-en-que-escribo-para-el-doctorado.html #LEO #BibTeX #Zotero #IndieWeb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/431636824436772864)
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jp long time no see guys
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jp can someone recommend an informative video for me to watch in bed?
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jp tech related or not i dont mind
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michielbdejong jp for videos, check out redecentralize.org
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scottbullard.com created /User:Scottbullard.com (+53) "Created page with "Find me at [http://scottbullard.com scottbullard.com]"" (view diff)
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scottbullard.com edited /events/2014-01-29-homebrew-website-club (+90) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek jp - we have a whole wiki page of indieweb videos: http://indiewebcamp.com/videos_about_the_indieweb
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tantek acegiak - is it an integratd rader or just a feedreader app?
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Jihaisse Hello
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aaronpk about to get one more video added there :)
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aaronpk doesn't know how to youtube anymore
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aaronpk comment from donpdonp on the timbl article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7191937
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wagle yay.. gmail is going down the tubes.. soon google will declare it "no longer used" and dump it
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wagle (my deleted spam keeps returning to my spam directory)
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wagle wrong channel, but oh well
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werd.io edited /events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (+82) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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@pfefferle @mrmzholland @jeena should bei fixed in the latest version of the semantic linkbacks plugin #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431735840709296128)
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@pfefferle @jeena http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress or https://github.com/pfefferle (twitter.com/_/status/431737575301464064)
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pfefferle Jeena you could also ask me here :)
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Jeena Actually, I have a question, why don't we use our notes on our websites instead of Twitter? ;)
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pfefferle that's a good one :)
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Jeena but I had a look at your commit just to check out what was the problem, hehe, and yeah, laziness!
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Jeena how does it work now since that is committed, will it ever be updated on the websites which already have those plugin installed?
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pfefferle the semantic linkbacks plugin is not yet in the wordpress plugin directory
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pfefferle i wanted to wait until it's stable
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pfefferle but if it is uploaded to this directory everyone get's an automatic update
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Jeena pfefferle so what is I'm looking at http://schema.org/docs/gs.html for the first time and it looks so bloated in comperison to microformats
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pfefferle :)
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Jeena wtf haha that wasn't ment like it came out ^^ I wanted to write something else first and wrote " pfefferle so what is" and then I forgot about that and later I wrote the unrelated rest omg
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Loqi ahahaha
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tobiastom hehe
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Jeena now I remember what I wanted to ask, pfefferle what are wordpress blogs like http://bupk.es/posts/ using to show the webmentions right now if they don't use the semantic linkback plugin?
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tobiastom schema.org is the one e.g. google uses, right?
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Jeena at least that is what their website is saying
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pfefferle the webmentions are handled simpler... like "Jeena mentioned your article on example.com" and example.com is linked to the article
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pfefferle and the semantic linkback plugin extends webmentions, pingbacks and trackbacks with the mf2 stuff
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Jeena but I can clearly see the content of my note as a comment here http://bupk.es/blog/772/
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pfefferle yes, he uses both
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Jeena ah ok I think I understand now
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pfefferle the semantic linkbacks plugin is only an extension... it doesn't handle the linkbacks, but hooks into the process and enriches the default content
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Jeena I see
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pfefferle I am also working on an indieweb plugin to bundle all these single plugins
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pfefferle https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb
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tobiastom does the microformats community has anything to say about schema.org?
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Jeena I think that would be cool, and then it would also be cool that if you write a response like he did as a comment that this would also send a webmention
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pfefferle that was part of the first version of the webmention plugin and will come back
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pfefferle but I need to think more about the way to integrate that
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Jeena ok, cool
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Jeena even if I'm not sure how that would work because it isn't its own http resource
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pfefferle tobiastom I think some of the schema ideas are used for the mf2 developement
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pfefferle jeena that's the tricky part :)
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pfefferle there is a url, but i have to disable some js redirections and add some other :)
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Jeena I see
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pfefferle the tricky part is to show only the single comment to parsers and the thread to users+
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Jeena in theory the thing after the hash in the url could handle it and when parsing something like that you would find the part in the html which is enclosed in this id
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tobiastom pfefferle: but is it more like "they do useless shit, ours is much better" or more like "whatever"?
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Jeena but I think there are a couple of problems because the hash is not always send
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tobiastom I see quite a problem with supporting two (or more) formats.
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pfefferle the hash-thing was another idea but that wouldn't work with most other implementations
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Jeena unless it is added to the spec in the future
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pfefferle yes
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Jeena tobiastom what problem is there? They can live together in one html document without problems can't they?
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tobiastom yeah, but they bloat the code. for mobile, if you have a lot of stuff on a site, I see that it could be a problem.
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tobiastom then we add rdf and whatever, and the main part of the page is only machine stuff.
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Jeena it is just text, if you download 10kb of html or 15kb it doesn't really matter
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Jeena "Microformats, RDFa and microdata: three stones, one bird." hehe that kind of says it
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Jeena the main part is already only useless stuff like sidebars, headers, background images, footers, etc.
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pfefferle I think RDFa and Microdata are fixing the same problem, but microformats can live aside of them
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pfefferle it's always good to use semantic class names
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Jeena check out the picture in http://ranchero.com/help/netnewswirelite4/whatisrss.html
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Jeena I'm really happy about the newer trend of single column blogs
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pfefferle it is also possible with html5s <main> or <article> tag
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@punchagan @voxpelli I was just trying out webmention and created an account. Brought down the remaining account count to 0. How to delete my account? (twitter.com/_/status/431783643334197248)
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@vickytnz Acronym bingo for privacy: POSSE, http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE PESOS http://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS , / @caseorganic #ixd14 (twitter.com/_/status/431795781553885184)
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@picturedinge http://indiewebcamp.com/ talks about interesting future stuff, shown by Amber Case at #ixd14 https://twitter.com/picturedinge/status/431797791812513792/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/431797791812513792)
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@AnonMohandas RT @eschnou: Mailpile announced alpha release! Great to see the progress, awesome work! https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/mailpile/ #FOSDEM #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/431816589185671168)
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aaronpk bah this video is too big for vimeo
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aaronpk suppose I could upgrade to vimeo pro for just one month
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tobiastom you could host it yourself… :)
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aaronpk I don't really want to serve 2.5gbs from my own server :)
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aaronpk and i'm not about to go figure out the best way to transcode this for streaming
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aaronpk video is hard
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aaronpk i used to do that though, with flash players to play the 320x240 video back in like 2001
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bret wow, chrome just disabled ALL of my non chrome store extensions this morning and pointed me to this page: https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/2811969?p=ui_remove_non_cws_extensions&rd=1 'Extensions that have been disabled will appear grayed out and you won't be able to re-enable them'
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bret bastards
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bret you have to run chrome dev channel to re-enable
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sparverius bret: that's because they have a huge problem with people getting owned
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bret thats not my problem
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tantek aaronpk - hoping Amber's slides got updated to not say next indiewebcamp in hollywood 2013!
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sparverius bret: well, it kind of was lol
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sparverius but yeah it's frustrating
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bret now it is
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bret At least let me re-enable them
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bret give me an override
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tantek a-ha - yay! updated indiewebcamp home page screenshot! https://twitter.com/picturedinge/status/431797791812513792
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tantek goes to update the home page next event section ;)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "next HWC is 2014-02-12" (view diff)
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@gletham Video of interest - Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case - FutureTalks http://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/431861758307749888)
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Jeena Hm I can't like the video :-(
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@jeena Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case - FutureTalks https://www.youtube.com/ (https://jeena.net/notes/82) (twitter.com/_/status/431869696699547648)
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DeltaWhy trying to add webmention support to my octopress blog using https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
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Jeena When I post a link to my website on Twitter, automatically about 20 requests come in, I assume from some kind of bots.
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DeltaWhy I tried sending a mention from http://michael.limiero.com/2014/02/test-2/ to http://michael.limiero.com/2014/02/test/ but it's not showing up
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Jeena it is a WordPress blog with some webmentions plugins?
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snarfed nah, iirc octopress is jekyll
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DeltaWhy yeah it's jekyll
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snarfed DeltaWhy, that app is voxpelli's. try pinging him? http://voxpelli.com/
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DeltaWhy I'm looking through the source and it looks like maybe I need to add microformats to the source page for it to work?
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tantek DeltaWhy - check your post with indiewebify.me
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tantek and your home page for that matter
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tantek Jeena - you can post a "like" of any URL on your on site ;)
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snarfed Jeena: yup, probably bots
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Jeena hehe yeah I kind of would like to implement something like that for real where I would send a webmention too and it would show up like a fav-tweet from bridgy or something
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Jeena the video is really cool, so much history
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snarfed i've been sending more and more likes directly from my site recently
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snarfed mixed results so far, only 1/2 or 1/3 work, but i'm sure that will go up over time
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tantek snarfed - maybe some of them are just getting queued ;)
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DeltaWhy alright, added h-card to the header and h-entry to the post page, still doesn't seem to be working
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tantek and will show up eventually :D
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tantek DeltaWhy what does indiewebify.me say?
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DeltaWhy http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmichael.limiero.com%2F2014%2F02%2Ftest-2%2F
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snarfed tantek: maybe! the sites are generally fast with other replies though, so i doubt it. love the optimism though!
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tantek hey caseorganic! heard you rocked another indieweb talk!
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DeltaWhy maybe I need a u-url, but I don't want a visible link - is it valid to put a <link> element in the body?
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DeltaWhy nvm looks like it's not
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tantek DeltaWhy, you could always put a <a class="u-url" href=""></a> in there - that should work
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tantek is watching the Youtube video that Aaronpk uploaded.
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aaronpk tantek: great! You found the video!
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aaronpk I didn't think I put a link in here
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KevinMarks what's the video problme, aaronpk ?
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caseorganic !tell tantek: thanks! it was originally a talk on privacy for location and mobile apps, but that only took up a little bit of the talk. i really wanted to talk about indieweb as a next step.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message 12 seconds ago: thanks! it was originally a talk on privacy for location and mobile apps, but that only took up a little bit of the talk. i really wanted to talk about indieweb as a next step.
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caseorganic tantek: i also talked up the channel and site, so there may be more european UX desginers joining.
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caseorganic tantek: hello!
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tantek great!
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tantek :)
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Jeena Ah so Amber is caseorganic, cool to get some faces attached to the irc nicks here, it is easy with aaronpk and tantek but all the rest is a bit harder ^^
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Jeena hehe damn you, english is not my first language! :-p
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caseorganic Jeena: hello! you have been doing great things!
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Jeena thanks, I'm trying, and I have quite a lot of time now after I got my degree and before I get a new job
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caseorganic Jeena: where are you from?
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Jeena I live in Sweden, but was born in Poland and grew up in Germany.
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caseorganic Jeena: Stolkholm or elsewhere?
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Jeena a bit south of Gothenburg
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caseorganic Jeena: very cool. I visited Sweden a few times, last year I went to Skellefteå, and a few years before that Malmo twice for conferences.
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caseorganic Jeena: what are you getting a degree in?
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Jeena I got one in Computer Science
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caseorganic Jeena: ah, great!
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Jeena now I'm looking for work locally, have been working remotely for about 5 years now and I'd like to work in an actual office with other coworkers and stuff ;)
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EHLOVader aaronpk, you use google voice?
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Jeena oh, welcome ttepasse! (I know him from the german SELFHTML community since 2003 or something?)
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EHLOVader how do you like the lack of mms
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EHLOVader just saw your note on voicemail
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ttepasse (Uhm. Hi.)
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader Jeena, how far down the work from home drain are you? http://theoatmeal.com/comics/working_home
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caseorganic EHLOVader: lol
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Jeena hehe
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aaronpk KevinMarks: no video problem anymore!
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aaronpk EHLOVader: yeah my primary number is a google voice number
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EHLOVader me too ;)
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aaronpk but i have an iphone so i also use iMessage a lot, and I set my email address as the ID instead of my phone number
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caseorganic Jeena: are you looking for work around Gothenburg? I know of a lot of interesting companies near Stolkholm and Malmo.
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EHLOVader did you omit the google voice widget because phone talking is annoying?
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aaronpk yeah I don't like to talk on the phone if I can help it
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EHLOVader it would proably suggest you liked it http://www.howtogeek.com/66707/how-to-add-a-google-call-widget-to-a-web-page/
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EHLOVader and people would do it more
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EHLOVader aaronpk, did you by chance have sprint?
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Jeena I would love to work here in Varberg but it is not going to happen, it is just a too small town for the work I want to do. So yeah it will probably be Gothenburg.
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aaronpk I used to have sprint
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EHLOVader they seem to be the only carrier who has done the slightest bit of integration with GV
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aaronpk yeah
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EHLOVader you can setup outbound calls, I was really hoping for MMS
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EHLOVader I doubt that google will go through all the trouble required to setup an mms gateway
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aaronpk yeah there's little reason to do so with imessage and all the photo apps
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EHLOVader that whole system is a real hack on the sms tech
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EHLOVader there is some reason
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EHLOVader every iPhone using friend of mine who wishes to send group texts are all good reasons
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EHLOVader thinks he has no friends, but really they all send group mms messages
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aaronpk yeah group texting is useful, but there's also hundreds of group messaging apps
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EHLOVader a separate group app is silly
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aaronpk basically the current state of mobile photo/texting is completly broken
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EHLOVader kinda yeah
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EHLOVader I think an app isn't the way
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EHLOVader anything that requires me to install more software to become compliant or participate is a huge no for me
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aaronpk so i'm not really paying attention to it and instead just working on things like private posts and indieauth
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EHLOVader twilio added mms messaging... but I think it is only outbound
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EHLOVader maybe inbound too
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EHLOVader anyway, the US only allows shortcodes
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EHLOVader I was hoping they might become a viable alternative to googlevoice, and anyway, it would be nice to roll my own, and host it outside of a silo
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Jeena And, I love the web for my free time, but I'm looking forward to find a job where I do something else then web, so I can still get excited about stuff for the web in my free time ^^
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EHLOVader lol, Jeena make sure the non web job affords you free time
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EHLOVader but I can see where you are coming from there... the soft glow of lcd screens starts to wear on you by the 12th hour
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Jeena yeah, my brother just today was pushing me to try to get a 4 days week at my next job
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Jeena which would be more then awesome
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EHLOVader yeah
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EHLOVader you could be a nurse
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EHLOVader and do 3 days
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EHLOVader or less
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aaronparecki.com edited /Events (+35) "/* 2014 */" (view diff)
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Jeena hehe no, I would work with computers, that is what I got my degree in, but I'd like to work on Unix interna or AI or robotics, etc. I don't know
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EHLOVader ooh
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EHLOVader embedded software and devices are hot in the states right now iirc
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EHLOVader but there is also a burgeoning diy hobbyist scene there
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EHLOVader so it may not be a great market to jump into now for making monies
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ttepasse Automated Indie-beer-brewing. He already did some first steps.
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EHLOVader I think lots of embeded systems also favor java
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Jeena hehe
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EHLOVader which might be a reason to stay away
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Jeena yeah kind of
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EHLOVader indie beer, what is this you speak of
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EHLOVader does the community have recipes
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EHLOVader or has someone setup their microbrew to tweet the ibus
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Jeena But I am in contact with a company from Gothenburg who produce Open Source Infotainment systems for cars. And we're going to have a second meeting next week. But I'm not sure how well they can pay, we'll see, but the work would be cool I think.
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Jeena he is talking about https://jeena.net/brewing-automaton
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Jeena but I'm still doing everything manually, never had the time to implement everything I was talking about.
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Jeena Btw. caseorganic the video was really great, it explained so much about so many things within this community which I didn't get haha
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caseorganic Jeena: thanks a bunch! it's so much fun to talk about indieweb to people. trying to get better at speaking.
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bret caseorganic: great talk :)
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aaronpk you guys watched it already?
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bret 23 mins in
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aaronpk nice
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Jeena yeah Loki posted a link to your tweet with it
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aaronpk I tweeted it?
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Jeena or something
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bret aaronpk++ for uploading
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Loqi aaronpk has 348 karma
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Jeena something with Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk I finished editing it last night at like 1:30am
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@gletham Video of interest - Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case - FutureTalks http://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/431861758307749888)
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aaronpk huh, I have no idea how he found that, lol
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bret Federated solcial web looked pretty serial
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Jeena hehe yeah, that picture was fun
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aaronparecki.com created /events/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb-amber-case (+1635) "add event page for futuretalk" (view diff)
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ttepasse caseorganic it es a very watchable video. Small suggestion: In future talks replace pingback with trackback, which is much more out there on the insanity/complexity scale with it's usage of RDF/XML in HTML comments.
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aaronpk or mention both, haha
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aaronparecki.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+130) "add amber case video" (view diff)
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Jeena hooray for parsing HTML comments
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gRegorLove Is anyone sanitizing and displaying HTML from webmentions, or just using the plaintext version? I'm leaning towards the latter, because the former could be a nightmare.
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aaronpk I think the generatl thought on sanitization is to use the tags that things like wordpress/mediawiki/github allow, just basic stuff like <b> <i> etc. it's pretty well tested at this point.
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aaronpk but I believe there are more implementations that just use the plaintext version (or strip all tags) and then re-autolink things
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gRegorLove Are there any libraries for sanitizing linked on the wiki? I don't think I've seen any on the webmentions-related pages.
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gRegorLove Or I could dig into WordPress code, I guess. Kinda loathe WP, though (however well their sanitization may be :) )
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aaronpk i don't think so, which probably means nobody is doing it :)
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gRegorLove Well maybe I'll take some initiative. :)
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EHLOVader gRegorLove, sanatizing as in preventing xss?
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EHLOVader if you want to see an xss nightmare jsfuck.com I may have shared it before
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gRegorLove Uh
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gRegorLove Not sure what I'm looking at, haha
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EHLOVader it is an xss filter evasion technique
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EHLOVader turn javascript into garbage by using only 6 characters
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Jeena oh cool, it is like brainfuck but in js haha
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EHLOVader for sanatizing webmentions and notes etc... wouldn't there be a way to put it in an iframe to prevent xss
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Jeena and it uses javascripts weird typecasting rules to be runable in the browser?
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EHLOVader opengraph may be a good place to look towards for a method of sanatizing content, it has rich snippets and might have already found a solution
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gRegorLove this jsf still needs to appear in <script> elements, right?
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EHLOVader yup
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Jeena iframe is not a good solution because when you resize the text you get scrollbars
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Jeena and then you never know how high the iframe should be in the first place
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EHLOVader http://ha.ckers.org/xssAttacks.xml
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gRegorLove iframe is a bad solution for avoiding xss, IMO. It means you're not properly sanitizing.
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EHLOVader https://www.owasp.org/index.php/XSS_Filter_Evasion_Cheat_Sheet
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EHLOVader a few good libararies are mentioned in the bottom of this article http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/how-to-prevent-cross-site-scripting-attacks/
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EHLOVader whitelisting would probably be the best route
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Jeena I like the <img src="javascript:alert('owned')">
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EHLOVader lol
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EHLOVader that xml is designed to be tossed into a fuzzer
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Jeena and all the event stuff like onmouseover on which ever tag, nice
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gRegorLove Yeah, whitelisting is what I was thinking
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gRegorLove ha.ckers.org is great. Forgot about it.
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EHLOVader owasp too
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EHLOVader two great resources...
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EHLOVader gRegorLove, you do php stuff mainly... have you heard of dvwa?
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gRegorLove Yes. And I have not.
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EHLOVader https://github.com/RandomStorm/DVWA
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ttepasse Jeena, <iframe seamless> could take care of that.
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Jeena but iframe, the hight problem!
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gRegorLove Heh, DVWA is an interesting idea
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ttepasse A seamless iframe should and will autosize the iframe to it's content's height. That was the point. ;)
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EHLOVader gRegorLove, another good project (which I now realize needs dvwa in it) is getprotobox.com
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EHLOVader it lets you setup a vagrant box, like puphpet but maybe better... not just for php
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EHLOVader uses ansible, and such
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DeltaWhy for h-entry, should a "read more" link be inside the p-summary or outside?
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gregorlove.com edited /IRC_People (-3) "Changed my nick" (view diff)
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tantek DeltaWhy - good question - does that link link to the permalink of the post? or to a fragment identifier to that point in the permalink of the post.
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DeltaWhy just goes to the permalink
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DeltaWhy title is already a permalink marked up with u-url
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tantek ok
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tantek I don't know if there is any common practice of whether the "read more" link is inside or outside the summary
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tantek perhaps check out aaronpk and jeena's home pages
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tantek because they also put summaries of their articles on the home page
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tantek would be a good thing to document existing practice
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tantek and see if there is any common reasoning by people actually doing it (one way or another)
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DeltaWhy having it inside looks weird if it's parsed into plaintext so I'm leaning towards outside
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DeltaWhy however if it was in an h-feed reader then there would be nothing indicating there's more content
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Jeena I still don't have h-entry on my home-/index-page
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Jeena I have actually a <table> ^^
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tantek DeltaWhy - the h-feed reader could go retrieve the complete h-entry at the u-url
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Jeena hm I think I need a way to not to POSSE every note to Twitter
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jeena.net edited /webmention (+10) "/* IndieWeb implementations */ added info about homepage" (view diff)
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aaronpk Jeena: yeah, selective POSSE is a good idea
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tantek aaronpk is there a download link for caseorganic's video?
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tantek I'd like to download it to watch it offline
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aaronpk youtube doesnt provide a download, right?
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tantek considers what would it take to turn the "videos about" page into a microformatted podcast
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aaronpk the source is a 2.4gb file
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tantek aaronpk - maybe it depends on your upload options?
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aaronpk i could try compressing it and putting it on dropbox
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tantek a compressed download would be great for mobile
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aaronpk wow quicktime has nice export options now
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aaronpk LOL it still says it'll be 1gb
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Jeena https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl you can install it via brew on os x and via apt-get/emerge/etc. on Linux
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tantek does it have a save for iPod/iPhone playback?
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aaronpk yeah taht's the ipod option
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tantek whoa
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tantek well, 1gb < 2.4gb at least
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aaronpk i think I can do better... one sec
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aaronpk yeah this'll work, 500 megs
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aaronpk i should really find one of those transcoding programs though. it's been a long time since i've done that.
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tantek I have a feeling benwerd might have some knowledge here too ;)
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Loqi yea
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Jeena have you tried ffmpeg yet? I had great results with it after I understood what arguments it needs
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aaronpk ok it'll be like 10 minutes
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aaronpk oh yeah I should probably learn ffmpeg better
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tantek aaronpk - also, you could upload it to the Internet Archive
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aaronpk i have no idea how to do that, but sure
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tantek rather than having to put it on your own dropbox
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tantek looks into it
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tantek I know KevinMarks knows how
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aaronpk ok i just created a "library card" (cute)
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aaronpk https://archive.org/create/
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb-amber-case (+29) "see also" (view diff)
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aaronpk so when is someone going to make an h-event to ical service so I can subscribe to the /events page in google calendar :)
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tantek aaronpk - well, those are two different things
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tantek google calendar is kinda dumb about subscribing to .ics even
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aaronpk i've used it pretty successfully
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tantek they don't have a well behaved robots.txt way to do it
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tantek they poll too hard
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tantek and crawl too hard
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tantek so, e.g. on h2vx.com we had to block all robots
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tantek so even if (when) we add h-event support to h2vs.com/ics/ - it is doubtful that gcal will support it
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tantek found https://archive.org/upload/
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aaronpk 35% done transcoding
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tantek also, aaronpk, just as we have the notion of an integrated indie reader, seems to me it's logical to also have an indiecal feature on your own website which can directly read / subscribe to h-events
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tantek it could even be notification driven, e.g. when you post an RSVP to an event on your own site, the event from then on sends you a webmention whenever the event is updated
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tantek similar to notifications of event updates that you receive when you RSVP to an event on FB
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Jeena I know it is getting boring but, yey great success, a "Tweet this" checkbox and I finally do: after_action :send_mentions, only: [:create, :update, :destroy]
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tantek likely much more reliable solution than making a one-off copy of the event in gcal
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tantek Jeena - great!
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aaronpk luckily there are a number of reasonable open source JS calendar interfaces
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aaronpk cause that stuff is not fun to build
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tantek right, makes more sense to start from some calendar interface OSS
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wagle i squirrelled this transcoder URL away just in case it might be useful: http://readwrite.com/2013/06/14/handbrake-the-best-video-conversion-tool-youve-never-used
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aaronpk handbrake! that's the one
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tantek though I still think you'll want a different flow than OSS JS calendar UIs
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aaronpk basically i want a replica of the gcal interface
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aaronpk i pretty much live in gcal
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Loqi gives aaronpk a replica of the gcal interface
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tantek e.g. you see an event mentioned in your indiereader, you click an RSVP button on your indiereader UI (because it recognizes the h-event) - e.g. "Going" "Maybe" etc. which then creates an RSVP post on your site and sends a webmention.
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aaronpk i also want to be able to create events on my site from this interface
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tantek isn't event creation just a special case of post creation?
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aaronpk yes, but you should see my calendar
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tantek gcal is to calendars the way that google reader was to RSS
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aaronpk i really like being able to drag out a 2-hr block on my calendar and then create an event very quickly
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aaronpk it has to be part of the same interface where i see all my existing events
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tantek that makes sense - so you can see your existing datetime commitments at a glance
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aaronpk right
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tantek this might be another one of those cases where a UI for "a small number of events" can get away with being much simpler than a UI for "someone with a mostly full calendar"
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aaronpk also shared calendars are the most useful thing
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tantek aaronpk - seems like shared posts would be too
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tantek that doesn't seem like something unique to events
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aaronpk i have a number of shared calendars with different groups of people, being able to toggle visibility of the calendar quickly is important. (that seems somewhat unique to events)
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tantek I have a number of shared etherpads with different groups of people.
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tantek I don't see any difference
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aaronpk i guess i should have said i don't see how it applies to notes (rather than unique to events)
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aaronpk the thing about shared calendars is that I often want to see various combinations of the shared calendars all overlaid on the same interface
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tantek I think there are potentially numerous intermediate/advanced use-cases for calendars
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tantek and it's going to be challenging to figure out which are how important when
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aaronpk yeah. I won't be able to leave google calendar until there's a completel replacement. so that's why I'm interested in finding ways to treat gcal as a view on indieweb events.
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tantek I'll point out that FB Events have none of those that you mentioned, and yet, I get far more FB event invitations / activity than gCal/Zimbra/iCal etc. all combined.
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aaronpk I also get far more invitations on FB events, but they are often also lower quality / more noisy
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aaronpk I treat my gcals as authoritative, so if I'm invited to soemthing on FB I'll add an entry to my google cal so I don't forget it
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tantek so in competitive terms, it's FB events that we need to match functionality for, not gCal
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tantek certainly not initially
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aaronpk that's a reasonable approach
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aaronpk (uploading indieweb video to archive.org now, 20% complete)
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tantek I think I see what you mean aaronpk re: gcal. I use a local text file similarly.
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tantek never have any problems with online/offline
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aaronpk yeah, offline access is super important for this too
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aaronpk I've been thinking about making a caldav->micropub service to be able to create event posts on your own site through your native calendar app
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb-amber-case (+87) "add archive.org link to video" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell tantek you can download the video from here! https://archive.org/details/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next