#indiewebcamp 2014-02-08

2014-02-08 UTC
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Jeena I wonder where should trim a webmention, I see that 256 chars is just to short
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gRegor` Jeena: maybe after 2 or 3 sentences? Matching on period followed by a space might work, most of the time.
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Jeena but then the flow of the conversation kind of gets lost like here https://jeena.net/notes/84 it stopped after "If I could" and I assume when we start using it as a twitter replacement the note will get even longer
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Jeena I for now removed the trim and will see if I get problems with it.
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anselm is there an overview of the indieweb strategy?
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aaronpk this is a start: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles
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gRegor` Jeena: I'm not showing webmentions currently (just starting out), but when I do I don't think I will trim them at all.
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gRegor` People can leave lengthy comments already, so I don't see much of a problem.
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anselm when i think about reducing my dependency on Facebook i think of several discrete services - are there any lists of open patterns for dealing with common features of Facebook such as aggregating friends comments, events and the like? or is that not under the purview here?
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anselm i can imagine inventing strategies for dealing with this stuff
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aaronpk there has been some recent brainstorming on feed readers http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader
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anselm for example, i might assert that i have a website, and that i sign all things i publish, and that others can listen to the stream of things i publish...
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anselm aaronpk: if i wanted to listen to you - how would i do that? do you publish your stream of activity in some machine readable way? I see your website and i could write something that scrapes that... not 100% optimal but it would do the job I guess.
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aaronpk all my notes are published with h-entry markup http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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aaronpk meant to be a machine-readable way of parsing the HTML to get the list of notes
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anselm clearly i guess i can just read your site. i'm just thinking about the idea of reading many peoples sites and the labor involved.
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anselm ok
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anselm thats pretty decent
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aaronpk for example: http://aaronparecki.com/notes parses to: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes
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Jeena gRegor my problem is when someone sends a webmention not from a note but from a loooong article then I don't really want the whole article there under my short note. I'm not sure how to distinguish those two yet.
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aaronpk Jeena: long articles should have a "name" property that is the title of the article
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aaronpk the only challenge I've had is when people (like tantek) post really long notes with no title
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Jeena and then there is summary too
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Jeena for long articles I would like to show the title and the summary. for notes I would like to show the content, but right now often there is content and name on notes are almost the same, but name is shorter when it comes from bridgy
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Jeena and ends with ...
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Jeena I have a feeling that I am overcomplicating things.
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aaronpk that is a recent change to bridgy. I wouldn't base any design decisions around that.
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aaronpk tantek updated this recently. have a read through this: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_display
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Jeena thanks for the link
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aaronpk I'm planning on updating my implemetation soon, so let me know how it goes reading that
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aaronpk wow archive.org made a bunch of thumbnails of the video! https://archive.org/movies/thumbnails.php?identifier=2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb
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aaronpk facepalm https://ia700308.us.archive.org/5/items/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb.thumbs/Rise%20of%20the%20IndieWeb%20-%20iPod_002010.jpg
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Jeena haha just wanted to post it too and suggest we can use it as a internal meme
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aaronpk man I really need to upgrade the freenode loqi
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aaronpk I taught him how to meme on the other networks
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Jeena hehe cool, is it open source btw.?
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aaronpk sorta
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Jeena I'm mostly interested in the AI part
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aaronpk the core is https://github.com/zenirc/zenircbot
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aaronpk then there are various services like https://github.com/aaronpk/zenircbot-meme
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aaronpk search my github for "zen" to find others
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aaronpk but the AI part is not open source :)
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Jeena damn ^^
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aaronpk mostly unintentionally
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Loqi lolz
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Jeena hehe
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aaronpk but I have little motivation to do so
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Jeena I wrote my own long time ago (in Haskell) while it was fun and also programmable by the users with regex it wasn't intelligent in any way https://github.com/jeena/cnb/blob/master/cnb.hs
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caseorganic !tell ttepasse: thanks for the talk feedback! will change that for the next talk
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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caseorganic bret: thanks! glad you liked the talk!
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ttepasse :)
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Loqi ttepasse: caseorganic left you a message 40 seconds ago: thanks for the talk feedback! will change that for the next talk
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caseorganic :)
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anselm in an open web scenario is there any set of promises that exist yet? for example how would i subscribe to recent activity off of somebody's site? let's say i am interested in listening to aaronpk but i don't want the last 50 years of his activity - is there some implication of an rss feed like approach where I can ask for things more recent than x? is there any implied code or promise on his end that lets me query only for certain things? or d
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anselm literally just read his home page and get "whatever is there"?
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aaronpk currently the method is you look at my home page and see a list of h-entrys. the page may point to another page with rel=prev to let you page backwards in time
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anselm so the most recent page has a machine readable link to older stuff ok
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk but there is no guarantee of how much stuff will be on the home page, or how many items per page
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anselm and i imagine http would let me ask if things are old or not. (I'm just trying to think through scenarios where beefy aggregators exist )
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anselm i know that kevin burton built a small empire writing rss aggregation technology and that it was very non trivial at scale
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aaronpk what do you mean "if things are old or not"?
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anselm i want to avoid fetching your page if there is no new content there
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aaronpk ah yeah
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anselm so i would poll your http server and it would issue no new state
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 4 hours, 28 minutes ago: you can download the video from here! https://archive.org/details/2014-01-13-rise-of-the-indieweb
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anselm i presume you don't do that but i imagine that it could be heeded
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aaronpk we haven't got to that point yet since feed readers are barely a priority for anyone yet. but I suspect we'll build on the latest pubsubhubbub work.
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anselm i can see publishing with h-entry easily enough - thats trivial
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anselm i'm trying to imagine replicating the broader realm of services that make Facebook so compelling - and some kind of aggregation is critical for me.
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aaronpk definitely
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anselm but i want something dirt stupid
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neuro` Good whatever it is for you.
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snarfed anselm: late to the game, but the traditional ways to get "only new things" over http are etags and if-modified-since
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snarfed pretty googleable. e.g. a good intro is http://forcecarrier.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/http-conditional-get-in-apis-a-forgotten-art/
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anselm right
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snarfed and aaronpk is right, pubsubhubbub is even better, if less widely implemented
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Jeena anselm in the mean time you could try to get something working with rss if it is important enough for you https://jeena.net/indie-notes-reader
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Jeena most of the people offer RSS/Atom feeds for their stuff, even if it isn't quite as cool as h-entries
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anselm this is worth studying - it is a micro phrasing of the whole problem
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tantek anselm - most of these things have answers, you just have to start building ;)
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Jeena yeah stop talking start building and show it to us! :-p
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anselm i have to think about it
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anselm here are my thoughts so far this evening : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5dS7-moq0FL4wio0O7znZlypH_ZyMW8To93QPxVT7w/pub
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anselm i appreciate the 'do whatever is fun for you' attitude but - this has been done before. so i want to think it through
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tantek anselm - you're overthinking it
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anselm nevertheless
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anselm :-)
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tantek no, it has not been done before, not by you
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anselm i've written so many aggregators it makes my head spin
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tantek and it's not "whatever is fun for you", it's whatever is the very next most important thing to you
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anselm ok ok
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anselm anyway
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tantek aggregators aren't the problem
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tantek sharecropping your identity and content is the problem
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anselm that is definitely annoying yes
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tantek your google doc makes the problem sound much bigger than it is
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tantek because you're overthinking it
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tantek and there's tons in there that's irrelevant to actually making use-cases work
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anselm jeena's example is a nice problem
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tantek which?
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anselm she wants a tiny notes reader
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anselm notes look to me like tweets
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Jeena (I'm a he, sorry for the female nickname)
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anselm ah
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tantek here's the latest on indieweb readers: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader
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tantek but you're proving my point anselm - you're worrying about something which is not first, second, or third priority to anyone who has actually started building something for themselves, and getting it working
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tantek there's a rapidly diminishing return on simply thinking/talking/discussing these things
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anselm hm, isn't a feedreader the highest priority to me?
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anselm i wonder what else it could be
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tantek see above
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anselm i mostly want to see what my friends post
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tantek aggregators aren't the problem. sharecropping your identity and content is the problem.
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anselm well that is annoying but - i can see why people do it
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anselm it's nettlesome - but - you have to pay somehow
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tantek separate feedreaders are a known evolutionary deadend
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tantek you're welcome to try again in that space, but good luck
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anselm i agree - my own experience with this validates that
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tantek the future is integrated reading, as described on the /reader page
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tantek and integrated implies with posting interface/functionality
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anselm that was the conclusion i came to in my thoughts this evening as well
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tantek thus if you really want to work on the future of reading, you have to get posting working first
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anselm but i'd like to see what aaron posts and a few other people post
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tantek otherwise you won't have the proper context for designing/building integrated reading
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anselm probably true
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Jeena Is the Twitter.app integrated reading for you tantek?
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tantek Jeena, I've been fairly disappointed with Twitter as a reader - too much noise
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Jeena yeah ok but just in theory, are you talking about something like that if you talk about intgrated reading?
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tantek but as a larger example, yes, Twitter, FB both have integrated reading/posting UIs
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Jeena ok
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tantek Jeena, as documented: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Silo_examples
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Jeena yeah I was just unfamiliar with the word "integrated reading"
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anselm ttrss is a good example of how aggregation can be a bear
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Jeena a bear?
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anselm not as easy as one might imagine
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anselm i'm imagining an app in three parts - probably all in node.js. a feed reader, a posting api and then a small html ui that talks to both of those... probably in bootstrap or something
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anselm i used this pattern on a project http://lifecards.org
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anselm and on lemonopoly.org
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anselm but i don't want to spend more than a few hours writing an aggregator.
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anselm ideally 0 hours if i can find one
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Jeena for publishing check out http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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anselm ok, chat tomorrow
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anselm zz
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Jeena jesus, your domain lemonopoly.org looks like lemonparty, I was shocked before I read it again
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@nxfifteen LUG Meeting - The IndieWeb Movement Grant Richmond: <section> <h3><span class="colored"><strong>///</strong></span>.… http://nxfifteen.me.uk/en/about-me/events/669?pk_campaign=social&pk_kwd=twitter_link (twitter.com/_/status/432103322024411136)
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michielbdejong the idea came up to do an indie web workshop at the Bangalore free software club, http://fsmk.org/
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michielbdejong is anybody in this channel from Bangalore?
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anselm jeena: heh
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bnvk anselm: yo dog
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anselm hi
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bnvk so you never made it over to Europe?
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anselm not yet - too busy!
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Jeena Europe is the best continent in the whole world!
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Jeena ;)
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snarfed grr, facebook no longer supports infinite-lifetime access tokens. they cap out at 60 days now
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snarfed probably a good call, honestly, but makes it difficult for bridgy
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snarfed users will need to come back and re-auth every two months. :(
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snarfed https://developers.facebook.com/docs/roadmap/completed-changes/offline-access-removal/
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aaronpk snarfed: sad!
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snarfed yup. reasonable though. as an FB user, i like it
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aaronpk yeah I suppose
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aaronpk ideally bridgy would send me a private message to my site for things like that :)
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snarfed aaronpk: totally!
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snarfed i'm trying to figure out how to send an FB user a message from my app right now
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snarfed very not obvious
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tantek was just going to suggest something similar to aaronpk!
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tantek though bridgy could just send a webmention notification to your homepage that your token has expired.
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aaronpk public note? sure why not
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tantek I mean - all the other bridgy webmentions are public right?
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tantek I'm thinking least work to build *something* that could work
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aaronpk certainly a good place to start
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tantek there's no aggregation of bridgy notes anywhere so it's unlikely to be "found" by anything
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tantek it's just a standalone permalink - and there's no reason for you to link to it from your own site either.
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aaronpk it would show up here for me http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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tantek aaronpk do all your mentions received show up there? including homepage mentions?
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tantek I mean, that's as good a spam incentive as any!
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk it's kinda borked right now
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aaronpk cause it's pulling the list of actual mentions received, rather than like unique source URLs
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tantek hmm perhaps we should recommend omitting homepage mentions from such a page
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aaronpk I'm not sure, I do want to know if people mention my home page
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aaronpk that's like an @-mention on twitter
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tantek sure, but behind an indieauth wall I'd say
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aaronpk that could work
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aaronpk i'm imagining pointing some h-entry-to-push-notification service at my /mentions feed and getting push notifications of mentions
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tantek as we get into invitations and other kinds of special use homepage mentions, I have a feeling we're not going to want them all as part of a public stream
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aaronpk but I can give that service a token on my site using indieauth
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snarfed has anyone here changed their twitter username before?
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snarfed thinking about doing it myself
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snarfed i know i can keep the tweets, followers, etc. just wondering about best practices
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aaronpk yeah it's not a huge deal. the weirdest part is when you tweet people may not necessarily recognize your new username
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snarfed right. probably less important now that they've emphasized name and picture over username in the last few yrs
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aaronpk true
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tantek snarfed, yes, I changed mine within an hour of signing up
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tantek old tweet permalinks will continue to work and redirect to your new username (they only use the tweet id as the key bits of information)
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tantek but obviously @-references will break
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tantek if you do change it, I recommend leaving a forward in place
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snarfed right
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snarfed yeah, good call
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tantek e.g. https://twitter.com/tantek
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snarfed i'm surprised they had that change username feature so early!
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aaronpk me too!
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aaronpk I assumed it was like last.fm where you couldn't change it, so when I wanted to change my username I went and made a new account
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aaronpk found out months later that was not the right way to do it :)
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snarfed aaronpk: me too. i figured i was out of luck until just today when i noticed this: https://support.twitter.com/articles/14608-i-m-having-trouble-with-my-username#swap
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aaronpk (although I later found out that if you know the right people at last.fm they actually can go change your username)
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snarfed gotta love hookups
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michielbdejong i always prefer creating a new one and then deleting the old one, just in case the migration script has a bug and something somewhere keeps the old value or becomes undefined. seen that too often at places i worked at ;)
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gRegor` aaronpk: Minor thing about webmention.io. When I use the pingback forwarding, the response type is text/html even though the content is XML.
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gRegor` Doesn't cause me any problems, but just wanted to let you know.
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aaronpk oops thanks
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aaronpk wait
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aaronpk ah yeah I see
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gRegor` Federated comment successfully. Mostly. :) http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1179/
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gRegor` I don't have a "notes" interface set up, so everything has a title. The post picked up the title instead of the text.
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tantek looks like it picked up the name of the post as content and the dt-published, but no author information (name or photo)
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gRegor` I think the h-card issue might be on Laurent's end. I have an h-card in the h-entry. I realize that may not be the best position for it, though (?)
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tantek indiewebify is not finding author information either: http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2014%2F02%2F1179%2F
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aaronpk ah there's no p-author I think
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gRegor` Oh. Oops
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tantek right it needs to be a class="p-author h-card"
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tantek in order to explicitly communicate that *that* h-card is *the* author of the post
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tantek otherwise it could just be a random mention of a person in a post
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tantek note that indiewebify pointed out the lack of author!
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tantek it's a good validation tool :)
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gRegor` So my h-card is a div, containing the photo, url, name. Should p-author be on the div? <div class="p-author h-card">?
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tantek gRegor - yes, just like the example provided by indiewebify.me (and I noted explicitly above ;) )
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gRegor` It shows it in an anchor link
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gRegor` just wanted to make sure I could do it on the parent element.
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gRegor` There we go.
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gRegor` Pretty good for a first outing. :)
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aaronpk congrats!
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gRegor` I figured it was going to pick up the title instead of text. Adding a notes interface is next on the agenda. :)
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aaronpk now you just need to drop the comment form in favor of webmentions :) http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/08/1/indieweb
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gRegor` I don't plan to for quite some time. I plan to interweave comments and webmentions, though.
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gRegor` Not that I get a lot of comments, but when I do, 99.9% of them are not webmention-capable :)
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gRegor` aaronpk: Got your webmention. Thanks!
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aaronpk great!
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gRegor` Looks like your reply-context didn't parse the "Z" UTC timezone on my post though.
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aaronpk what do you mean? You published "Z"
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gRegor` Oh, I misread.
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