#indiewebcamp 2014-02-24

2014-02-24 UTC
KartikPrabhu, josephboyle, nitot, krendil, bnvk, paulcp, JasonO, toffermann, Raymondo, snarfed, pfenwick, JonathanNeal and tantek joined the channel
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek catches up on a couple of days of logs
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KartikPrabhu evening tantek
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+7) "/* Publish an invitation */ h-card" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+65) "/* Publish an invitation */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+115) "clarify multiple invitees allowed in a single h-entry" (view diff)
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aaronpk evening tantek
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tantek hey aaronpk - well done on your home page notes!!
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tantek looks great!
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aaronpk thanks!
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aaronpk minor change, much less work than anticipated, large difference
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aaronpk now in the process of adding photos to my notes stream
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pdurbin dunno if anyone else is publishing sheet music on their own domain but I'm starting to: http://music.greptilian.com
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pdurbin (simple songs for my kids mostly)
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aaronpk nice! I think barnabywalters has done a bit of experimentation on that too!
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aaronpk yep! http://waterpigs.co.uk/music/
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aaronpk he has a crazy plugin thing that transforms strings like "GB BG de|f3 e3|GB BG de|f2 ef g2|GB BG de|f4 ef|" into a series of notes. I don't really know how it works
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pdurbin huh. so http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot supports music, it seems
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aaronpk using this! https://github.com/paulrosen/abcjs
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pdurbin I don't think he's using http://www.lilypond.org like I am
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KartikPrabhu i was trying to find adactio's post on that abcjs thingy
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pdurbin ah, and more at http://abcjs.net
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pdurbin huh, it's older than LilyPond: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_notation
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pdurbin ah, and /usr/bin/abc2ly (a python script) got installed when I installed LilyPond. interesting
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KartikPrabhu and the plot thickens
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aaronpk this is awesome "LilyPond is primarily concerned with producing top-quality engraved sheet music
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aaronpk creating a Graphical User Interface (GUI) would distract us from this goal."
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KartikPrabhu at a time when everyone wants a smart phone app!
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pdurbin aaronpk: heh. yeah but there are GUIs (not that I've used any). I was just looking at http://tex.blogoverflow.com/2011/11/sheet-music-with-lilypond-and-frescobaldi/
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aaronpk made by other people tho, yeah?
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pdurbin probably. a solid command line core is the unix way :)
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aaronpk snarfed: any thoughts on adding Flickr to bridgy? :)
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snarfed sure!
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pdurbin aaronpk: anyway, thanks for the heads up about what barnabywalters is up to. continuing the conversation at http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2014-02-24#i_59242
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snarfed the usual thought: not a priority for me personally just yet, but worth filing an issue, i happily accept PRs, and i may get to it eventually
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk reasonable :)
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aaronpk I was just noticing how easy it would be for me to POSSE to flickr once I get this part done
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aaronpk also their API is *really* friendly for this kind of thing
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snarfed nice!
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aaronpk so friendly that I'm able to make a complete clone of my Flickr account by polling just one feed
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snarfed oh man, i'm jealous
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snarfed i have to make N twitter API calls just to get a full reply chain
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snarfed and they don't even have a way to batch calls
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snarfed sigh
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aaronpk i'm about to use the "u-photo" property noted here http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties
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aaronpk anybody else doing that with their photos?
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tantek aaronpk - cool! the thing is, it's not *just* for photos
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tantek hey nitot - your IRC client is connecting/disconnecting a lot - might want to check it out
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aaronpk ah right, kind of like how twitter and facebook use their proprietary og_image and twitter:image tags?
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tantek aaronpk - you could be using u-photo on all your existing post types that have any kind of representative image
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tantek right - u-photo comes from the link-preview research
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/link-preview-brainstorming
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aaronpk cool. I might take a look at adding that then.
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aaronpk fortunately it slips right in to my actual photo posting
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tantek from that perspective, it also gives you the option of providing a "special" cropped/zoomed photo for the link-preview u-photo
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tantek rather than just a link to the complete photo itself
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aaronpk also a neat side effect of the markup is the <img> tag appears in the parsed content[html] but not in the content[text] property
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tantek yes
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aaronpk hm giant square images kind of dominate the page
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tantek aaronpk - like Instagram style?
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aaronpk yeah but in a list view they are kind of large
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aaronpk i'm going to leave it for now cause I can't think of a better way yet
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KartikPrabhu nitot: your client is being crazy!
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KartikPrabhu hmm that worked!
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aaronpk tantek: any chance I can get you to do this tonight? https://github.com/tantek/cassis/issues/15
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aaronpk should be literally just making a tag on github and packagist should create a new release from there (assuming you have the auto-hook set up)
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tantek aaronpk - looking
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tantek seeing if I can do it just in the UI
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aaronpk i think so
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aaronpk ooh maybe not. i think you can only create branches from the UI. maybe I can send a PR with the tag.
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aaronpk tantek: what is the numbering scheme you're using? 0.1.15895 is the last version number
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aaronpk I can create a tag, send a pull request, and then you can just click merge
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tantek aaronpk - I think I just did it
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tantek cassis is still v0.1 and the .nnnnn after that is ymd_to_days("YYYY-MM-DD") using today's date for that
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aaronpk days after unix epoch?
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aaronpk ok I had a feeling it was something like that. couldn't quite place it.
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tantek so now there's this: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/releases/tag/v0.1.16124
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tantek does that work?
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aaronpk cool let's see if packagist picks it up
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aaronpk might not cause you would have needed to put barnaby's API key in the web hooks section for that repo in github
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aaronpk !tell barnabywalters can you add tantek and me as maintainers to cassis on packagist so we can create new releases? https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek aaonpk - too many weird setup things just to make automatic notifications of stuff work
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tantek why can't all these just use webmention? :P
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aaronpk hehe
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tantek no seriously, all this crap has its own bespoke handcrank notification nonsense
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aaronpk yeah have you seen the list of supported services for webhooks in github? heh
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tantek yeah
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aaronpk I broke my webmention endpoint with that latest push cause I forgot to wrap the require('cassis.js')
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/webmention.php
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aaronpk it's interesting that instagram shows the location of the photo above the photo. all the meta data appears above the photo actually.
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aaronpk actually twitter does too, interesting
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aaronpk and both show the timestamp in the top right corner in as short a form as possible
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aaronpk damn, now that's making me reconsider putting the date at the bottom
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aaronpk it's not as big a deal for the date alone, but I want to add the one-line location like instagram has and I'm not sure where to put that right now
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aaronpk details details
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tantek aaronpk - there's lots of room for experimentation
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tantek they also do different things in the iOS app view vs. desktop web view
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tantek and Flickr has iterated on these things too
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aaronpk ok here is my current thinking: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7291/12738632555_a321cc2952_z.jpg
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aaronpk the information hierarchy is quite different from instagram and twitter, but it looks ok I think
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I for one like the meta at the bottom
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tantek aaronpk - location and datetime to me are part of the same kind of meta
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tantek spacetime as it were
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tantek seems odd to split them with the name/title
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tantek in between
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tantek part of I think what IG is doing with *all* the meta at the top is to provide a static header while the photo scrolls underneath
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aaronpk oh! right, forgot about that
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tantek here's I think the logic for what they do:
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aaronpk hm yeah flickr shows date\nlocation
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tantek 1. caption immediately under a photo is exactly the same as when photos are embedded elsewhere, like newspapers
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tantek 2. comments *immediately* after the caption helps the caption+comments read as one uninterrupted thread of conversation
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tantek 3. putting the "action" buttons at the *very bottom* serves to frame the content item (photo)
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tantek i.e. the last thing you see are verbs that apply to the content above them
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aaronpk yeah, that makes a lot of sense
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tantek the only exception to this is that they provide the "<3 NN likes" between the photo and caption.
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aaronpk it would be weird to put the likes splitting the caption and comment, so I guess that makes sense
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tantek right, it's *less weird* where they put it now
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tantek the lesser of two weirds
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aaronpk man what a rabbit hole
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aaronpk all I wanted to do was add photos to my site, and now I'm considering changing the formatting of *everything*
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aaronpk so for notes for example, I could move the date to the top right corner above the note text, and leave the likes/comments/etc below http://aaronparecki.com/notes
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aaronpk wow instagram's handling of location data is super barebones.
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aaronpk I'm surprised it works as well as it does.
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aaronpk location: id, name, latitude, longitude
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aaronpk that's it
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aaronpk heh location "1" in the instagram api is Dogpatch Labs: https://api.instagram.com/v1/locations/1?client_id=47fb97fd2c0d4f848754e5501a762e13
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aaronpk 2 is gone. 3 is Chevron. 4 is Nara Sushi, presumably where the founders went for dinner after building the API. :)
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tantek that's pretty funny
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aaronpk ok how's this? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/220448117fe0e32bbc52
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aaronpk side effect of adding location to my photos, I now show it for every note
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aaronpk not entirely convinced it's as useful on text notes as it is on photos, but we'll see
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/23/3/p3k linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-23#t1393218392 (webmention)
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tantek aaronp - neat!
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Jihaisse Hello
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@xtof_fr @clochix rejoins le canal #indiewebcamp sur freenode. Flow #invitation attendu de @nitot @njbenji @fdevillamil http://indiewebcamp.com/invitation#Invitation_user_flow (twitter.com/_/status/437871425349619712)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/xtof_fr/436249324679610369/437871425349619712 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (webmention)
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Jeena hm perhaps someone should stop nitot from rejoining and leaving all the time ;)
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xtof Morning all. Et bienvenue clochix
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xtof Clochix feel free to register your nickname on http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people and don't hesitate to ask for help about web-sign-in via https://indieauth.com
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xtof nitot : salut l'ami, tu as une page "mendiée" par tantek sur http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Standblog.org ;)
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@nitot RT @xtof_fr: @clochix rejoins le canal #indiewebcamp sur freenode. Flow #invitation attendu de @nitot @njbenji @fdevillamil http://t.co/4o… (twitter.com/_/status/437903197190230016)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/xtof_fr/437871425349619712/437903197190230016 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/invitation#Invitation_user_flow (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/xtof_fr/437871425349619712/415643 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/invitation#Invitation_user_flow (webmention)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tobiastom good morning tantek
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tobiastom tantek: is there some common icon to symbolize sympathy or support with the indieweb. like rss has it's orange thing.
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tantek aaronpk, looks like we lost Loqi ~4:37 or thereabouts today.
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aaronpk Jeena: just turn off join/parts for the channel in your IRC client. much more pleasant that way
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Jeena oh good idea
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tantek.com edited /logo (+14) "see also buttons" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /buttons (+14) "/* Logos */ main" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /logo () "(-775) move community contributions to "buttons" because that seems broader than "logo" which sounds specific" (view diff)
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Jeena tobiastom: http://indiewebcamp.com/logo
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aaronpk welcome back Loqi
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tantek.com edited /buttons (+818) "move community contributions to "buttons" because that seems broader than "logo" which sounds specific, see also" (view diff)
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tantek tobiastom: there's a bunch of buttons you can put on your site to indicate support and/or that you're attending / building: indiewebcamp.com/buttons
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/buttons
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tobiastom so… indieweb's name is officially indie web camp?
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tantek I like these in particular myself: http://indiewebcamp.com/buttons#Buttons
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tantek indieweb is a concept (set of), not an official
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aaronpk the indieweb's official name is just the Web :)
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tantek :D
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tobiastom … ;)
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Jeena when did we get those buttons?
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aaronpk couple years ago?
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Jeena hm ok, I missed that :)
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tantek Jeena, my bad for not originally pointing them out when you made your contribution
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tantek.com edited /link-preview (+20) "see also h-entry" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, per yesterday's u-photo discussion, added a brief description to the property here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties
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tantek hopefully that better clarifies its use beyond photo posts
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aaronpk wonderful
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cweiske regarding link-preview - does someone know oembed?
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cweiske this is the standard since years
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cweiske.de edited /link-preview (+101) "/* existing silo support */ oembed" (view diff)
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barnabywalters cweiske: I used to have an oembed endpoint for my site years ago
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Loqi barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 11 minutes ago: can you add tantek and me as maintainers to cassis on packagist so we can create new releases? https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I added you, tantek doesn’t appear to have an account but I can of course add him if he does
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aaronpk thanks!
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barnabywalters or tantek could just add my packagist key to cassis’s auto-updating thing
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aaronpk that woudl be even better
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cweiske.de edited /link-preview (-9) "/* existing silo support */" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske oembed unfortunately stalled out :/
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cweiske let's re-invent it and everybody will use it!
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barnabywalters tantek: are you up for getting cassis auto-updating packagist on commits? it should take about a minute
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tantek barnabywalters one subject at a time
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snarfed cwieske++
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Loqi cwieske has 1 karma
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tantek cweiske we don't want to reinvent oembed. instead we analyze it for what it tried to do, why it failed, and use that to inform something new
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barnabywalters tantek: sure, let me know when you’re ready
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cweiske the same way rss and atom have been analyzed and reinvented with h-feed
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tantek cweiske I don't think that word means what you think it means ("reinvented")
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tantek e.g. similar improper usage: "same way that webmention reinvents pingback"
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cweiske I guess your analysis will be that it was too hard since one had to implement an extra endpoint instead of using html
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cweiske you'll throw that argument on everything
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cweiske s/throw/slap/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: you'll slap that argument on everything
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tantek cweiske indeed, the web has shown that to be a general pattern
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tantek and that's not specific to the web, it's just economics. simpler cheaper things win.
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cweiske haha. rise of the APIs anyone?
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Loqi rofl
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cweiske why don't we parse amazon product listings and detail pages?
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barnabywalters cweiske: it’s not entirely clear what point you’re making — why do you wish to parse amazon product listings?
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cweiske tantek says that it's simpler and cheaper to have only one html that is used by every client. I say that the number of APIs (that deliver specific content for specific use cases) is rising, which contradicts tanteks statement
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cweiske now we're back to the "cheap for whom" question, which this channel decided as "cheap for the producer"
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tantek.com edited /link-preview (+354) "move oembed to prior link preview standards" (view diff)
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cweiske ok, let's end this discussion
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tantek cweiske - APIs are ephemeral froth. They appear, break, disappear just like waves on the beach.
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tantek cweiske - the web decided that cheap for the producer wins
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cweiske how can I talk to that web entity you continue to mention?
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tantek.com edited /format (+468) "start FAQ with Why formats instead of APIs" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske what's your use case?
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tantek.com edited /format (+789) "/* Why formats instead of APIs */ When is a protocol better" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske - if you like OEmbed, you should support it on your own site, and we can keep track of that as indieweb sites that support it.
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tantek even if you just want it to support it for legacy consumers (I don't know of anyone writing code or building things to consume OEmbed any more)
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tantek I support Atom myself on my site for the same reason - legacy consumers.
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tantek.com edited /protocol (+65) "FAQ see" (view diff)
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barnabywalters did not know about /social-standards
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barnabywalters that’s a handy page
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tantek barnabywalters I believe I created it in response to vacuous hand-waving about "social standards" at the W3C social workshop last year
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tantek barnabywalters, oh yeah, this thread: https://twitter.com/t/status/365126917583671298
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@t day 1 of @W3C Social Standards Workshop. Disappointed that http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/ mentions mostly dead specs. #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RQ2) (twitter.com/_/status/365126917583671298)
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tantek see my first reply in that thread where I mention social-standards - created the wiki page just so I could answer a question
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barnabywalters in theory it should not be at all tricky to create a microformats -> oembed bridge. probably not worth the effort unless someone can make a compelling case, i.e. listing people/services which actively consume oembed
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tantek exactly. harder to publish *and* consume = fail.
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aaronpk oembed.io? hehe. but yeah not worth it unless there's a compelling list of consumers
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aaronpk oh oembed.io is already a thing
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tantek Twitter tried to build on oembed but found it insufficient and introduced proprietary Twitter Cards instead.
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aaronpk whoa http://oembed.io/api?url=http://aaronparecki.com/
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aaronpk http://oembed.io/api?url=http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club
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barnabywalters tantek: do you have a citation for that?
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tantek barnabywalters - would have to search for a Twitter blog post where they announced supporting oembed
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tantek and then another one later when they introduced Twitter Cards
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tantek but there aren't any good blog search engines around any more :(
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caseorganic tantek: hear hear
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caseorganic tantek: my friend from college is trying to build one again. i told him of the pitfalls
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caseorganic tantek: is it possible to make a reasonable one today? he's of course trying to index rss feeds
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tantek caseorganic - yeah indexing feeds was the dumb simple thing to try first
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tantek *many* companies did that
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caseorganic tantek: what's a better way to try?
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tantek then when Technorati started to index actual HTML of blog posts, the results *crushed* everyone else
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tantek so much better
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tantek and that was *before* hAtom / h-entry etc.
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caseorganic tantek: i mentioned that to him. did you try to figure out where content began on a page? lots of different rulesets, right?
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tantek yes. lots. Kevinmarks is quite familiar with it as he was the primary spider dev.
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caseorganic tantek: how is technorati doing now? i remember the day all the feeds broke for me
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tantek it's turned into more of a blog ad platform
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tantek with some top level summary search stuff
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tantek I think they may have even outsourced their search to a whitelabel backend provider sad to say - that also doesn't do as much.
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caseorganic tantek: that's too bad
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tantek yeah
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caseorganic tantek: let's say there was a great blog search engine that was built. how would it make money, and how would it change things?
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caseorganic tantek: would you use it, and what would you use it for?
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tantek all the same reasons I used Technorati, and that all of us use Twitter search
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caseorganic tantek: makes sense. it's the thing i miss most about not having that search option. i can't search mentions or articles across the web
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tantek caseorganic, did you forget that Google launched real time search using various feeds (PuSH) and the Twitter firehose? and then shut it down when contract renegotiations failed?
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caseorganic tantek: yes, i loved that
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caseorganic brb in 20 min
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tantek caseorganic just try to search for its existence now ("Google real time search", when was it launched at what conference, and when did it die.
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tantek oh look there's actually a WP article!
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Real-Time_Search
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+108) "/* 2011 */ Google Real-Time Search shutdown" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+6) "/* 2011 */ b" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Google (+105) "/* Dead Services */ Google Real-Time Search" (view diff)
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barnabywalters setting up a basic personal search engine using taproot’s cache + some limited crawling and neo4j is somewhere in the depths of my todo list
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tantek funny, they shut it down just days after the first IndieWebCamp
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tantek ironic
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tantek barnabywalters I wonder how hard would it be for indie websites to support some degree of "social search" beyond just site-specific search
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barnabywalters as neo4j is a graph database, making querying based on links between posts really easy to do
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caseorganic tantek: very
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tantek caseorganic very what ?
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caseorganic tantek: thanks for the link and for adding it to site deaths!
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tantek I think it was caught up in the Buzz debacle too.
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caseorganic tantek: very ironic is was shut down just days after the first IndieWebCamp
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tantek yeah
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caseorganic tantek: i used to sell a service to advertisers, brand managers, that was a netvibes dashboard of mentions of their brand across the web. the entire backend was yahoo pipes, and the best source was, of course, technorati. i survived off of that almost exclusively for a year
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tantek barnabywalters - I'm thinking indie social search might be interesting for keeping a moderate search index for my site and the sites I link to.
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barnabywalters tantek: that’s basically what I was planning on building
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barnabywalters it would inherently only search for things which I’ve linked to
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barnabywalters plus maybe a little bit of extra crawling
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barnabywalters this could be the final straw forcing me to install a java runtime
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caseorganic tantek: i would sell a dashboard a month, use those funds to live on, and then work on side projects
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caseorganic tantek: marshall kirkpatrick lived by a similar system
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caseorganic tantek: it was an experiment in minimal living out of college
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tantek.com edited /search (+1218) "add indieweb examples, and brainstorming (site plus links, site plus linked sites, social search)" (view diff)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: neo4j seems cool, but I'm really hesitant to run a java service myself
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’ve played around with neo4j locally before, currently installing elasticsearch to see what that’s like
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barnabywalters at the moment I have no intention of hosting the search engine on my server — locally will do for the moment
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aaronpk cool, let me know how it goes. I'm really interested in getting search running, but it's not trivial.
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tantek.com edited /search (+329) "examples: Ben Werdmuller, and add IndieMark levels achieved" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: welcome
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tantek ah, benwerd has a search box, hidden in the = menu button thingie in the header
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tantek !tell benwerd when did you implement site search on werd.io, and what backend does it use?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hello Loqi?
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tantek ah, benwerd has a search box, hidden in the = menu button thingie in the header
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tantek !tell benwerd when did you implement site search on werd.io, and what backend does it use?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek ah, benwerd has a search box, hidden in the = menu button thingie in the header
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tantek !tell benwerd when did you implement site search on werd.io, and what backend does it use?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters somewhat indieweb-related: I successfully got a .bit address resolving for my site: barnabywalters.bit
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tantek wonders if it is worth restating the past 30 min of what he said
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aaronpk oh man
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tantek darnit loqi, can you dedup for me?
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aaronpk looks like the netsplit is resolved
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tantek sorry benwerd
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barnabywalters I’m not entirely convinced that namecoin is ever going to be useful, but it’s worth experimenting with DNS alternatives
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aaronpk yeah, I'm not really interested in experimenting with DNS alternatives until there is something that is actually decentralized, like doesn't rely on an organization to maintain it
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tantek aaronpk - agreed.
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tantek DNS alternatives are not the hard problem right now.
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tantek at least for indieweb
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aaronpk namecoin is really just another centralized DNS, they just don't realize it yet
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tantek we can build plenty that works *just fine* using existing DNS
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tantek UX, formats, protocols are the primary challenges for us
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tantek ok, here's a few things for the logs
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tantek barnabywalters that's interesting too, but different (searching linked pages)
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tantek barnabywalters do you have any search on your site now?
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tantek in fact, who here has a search box on their site?
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tantek no, seriously, does ANYONE else here have a search box on their site?!?
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tantek ahem aaronpk, barnabywalters, caseorganic, all three of you have indieauth sign in boxes on your sites but no search box?!?
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tantek would be interesting to see a PuSH based realtime search that indexed say, every IndieWebCamps' attendees' personal sites.
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aaronpk er, I do have a search box, but it just goes to google search with site:aaronparecki.com and some other parameters
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tantek aaronpk - I didn't see it
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aaronpk apparently it is missing from my index page, but it's on the notes and article permalinks
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tantek oh ok
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tantek yeah, I went to your home page
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tantek a logical place to search from :P
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aaronpk a reasonable place to look for a search box :)
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aaronpk jinx
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bret I used to have a search box. Was removed during a refactor, never made it back
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aaronpk bret: was it a google site search too?
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bret yeah
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bret just google
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bret I was toying with the idea of generating a json list of posts and implementing a client side javascrip search
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barnabywalters I am more than aware that UX is a primary challenge, I’m experimenting with namecoin to assess whether it makes it any easier to build domain registering/transferring/management UIs with it
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I am interested in your research on the UX of registering domains. are you documenting it anywhere?
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bret but... no time :[
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’ve done a few screen recordings but not much other than that, not published anywhere
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tantek.com edited /search (+954) "contribute code for site search box, how to stubs for using 3rd party backend and site backend" (view diff)
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tantek ok, those of you without search boxes on your site, I just contributed my static form code to the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/search#search_box
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tantek now you have much less of an excuse :P
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tantek.com edited /search (+208) "/* search box */ note time ordered feature, and HTML has been tested in the wild for a while" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /search (+56) "/* Brainstorming */ social search should include everything you're reading" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /search (+13) "/* See Also */ reader" (view diff)
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aaronpk heh, how about using bittorrent to distribute the indexed search data so a bunch of us can run search servers from it
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@willowbl00 Hey #indieweb - it’s hard to know what it's about if you don’t code. Are people working on templates? Can I help explain? cc @caseorganic (twitter.com/_/status/438003237485314048)
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tantek.com edited /reader (+256) "next steps after reader, social search to search the things you read" (view diff)
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tantek caseorganic who is that person? and can you invite them to IRC?
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aaronpk willow!
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tantek I went to their site and didn't understand the first post about Annie - was that an obit?
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tantek !tell benwerd could you create an indie event for http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club and POSSE FB event too? It's in 2 days!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KevinMarks_, Phae, skinny, you should RSVP to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club too!
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks for the search code sample, deployed to waterpigs.co.uk
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tantek yay!
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Loqi :D
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tantek now add yourself to the IndieWeb examples section on /search :)
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tantek barnabywalters, what do I need to do for packagist key to cassis’s auto-updating thing
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tantek ?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/search#IndieWeb_Examples
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barnabywalters go to the settings/admin section of the cassis github repo, into the “service hooks” section and find packagist
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barnabywalters looks like they moved it to the “configure services button”
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barnabywalters then in the packagist form which turns up, username = barnabywalters, check “enabled” and leave domain blank
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tantek check "Active" ?
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barnabywalters er, it might be called “enabled”
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tantek no it was called "Active"
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tantek hence the question
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tantek I see a green checkmark next to Packagist now
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tantek so is it working?
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tantek I clicked the "Test Hook" setting
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tantek er, button
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /search (+221) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ documented my basic search form" (view diff)
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barnabywalters https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis no longer has the “this package is not auto-updated” banner, so looks like it worked!
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barnabywalters thanks
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /search (+14) "/* Barnaby Walters */ added explicit datetime" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters, now your turn, add yourself: http://indiewebcamp.com/search#IndieWeb_Examples
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barnabywalters tantek: I just did, Loqi didn’t report it :)
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barnabywalters oops, forgot to add explicit datetime
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tantek :)
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barnabywalters Loqi: you’re not up to your usual standards today
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Loqi dude
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barnabywalters that’s more like it
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tantek yeah!
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tantek barnabywalters you could add your site name too
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /search (+19) "/* Barnaby Walters */ site name" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /search (+25) "/* Barnaby Walters */ seriously, no autolinking?" (view diff)
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snarfed hrmph. facebook API has been throwing 500s all morning. whee
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tantek Happy Monday snarfed! ;)
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snarfed you too tantek!
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tantek snarfed - this week! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club
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tantek spread the word - and everyone bring someone new
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tantek let's see if we can reach beyond usuals this week :)
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aaronpk we had a really great turnout in portland last time! so sad we couldn't get the video link between them
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snarfed hate to say it, but i might not make it this week :/
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snarfed i'll still try to rally others though. and i'm looking fwd to indiewebcamp sf!
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tantek aaronpk - agreed, I'll work on the video link even earlier this time
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aaronpk interesting project for querying text files with a SQL-like language https://github.com/harelba/q
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tantek What do you think is the most important HTML element? 2nd most?
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aaronpk is this a trick question?
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sparverius probably body and then div imo
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onewheelskyward <html> gets a bad rep
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ttepasse <a href="">, of course. Without it, HTML ist just another Docbook.
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tantek ttepasse, you win. yes, it's <a href>, which is the only HTML element you actually need to build functioning hypertext.
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tantek aaronpk, not a trick question, but definitely tricky.
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aaronpk your motive for asking was unclear :)
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tantek I'm writing a new book as has been rumored.
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aaronpk aha! microformats?
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ttepasse Plain old HTML? ;)
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bear How Ted Nelson was right and how we are doing the web wrong?
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tantek bear - haha - no he's written plenty on that himself
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tantek ttepasse - a subset thereof ;)
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tantek aaronpk, bear, ttepasse: http://adactio.com/journal/6663/ (read it to the end)
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bear nice!
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bear it would be good to have a baseline to look at when working with new html creators
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bear html best practices that comes from practical document generation - *not* from the browser parsers or lets-mangle-the-dom web app writers
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aaronpk tantek: lol!
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aaronpk cool!
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ttepasse If I remember correctly, JS, The Good Parts had also a section why the bad parts are bad. Can we expect the same? E.g. rants about RDFa & such?
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aaronpk heh
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bear oh my, now that would be an interesting chapter (or three)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Any thoughts on the goodness of Web Components? To my outsider brain, they seem to be moving templating into HTML for some reason.
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@kevinmarks @AmyGSFN @Aubs xoxo, YxYY and indieWebcamp replace the spontaneous connections now (twitter.com/_/status/438066472426803200)
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Loqi [mention] http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/02/24/2014/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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aaronpk haha! "Also, I’m turning off comments and pingbacks etc. for this blog. Probably going to start looking implementing WebMentions very soon."
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aaronpk still sends pingbacks apparently :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - I've yet to see a critical use case for Web Components (if you know of one, show me a URL of a site that demonstrates as much).
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tantek That's not to say there won't be one in the future, but currently it's a "nice experiment" and I'm withholding further judgment (i.e. I wouldn't call it "bad")
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aaronpk has never heard of this web components thing
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KartikPrabhu interesting. I don't know any examples which i why I am on the fence. To me it seems that all those things can be done by server-side templates. But we'll see
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: http://www.w3.org/TR/components-intro/
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk also http://css-tricks.com/modular-future-web-components/
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tantek aaronpk, it's ok, it's not "necessary" yet for anything that I know of.
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aaronpk the comparison to what the browsers do with the <video> tag shadow dom is interesting
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ttepasse Before webmentions there were Pingbacks. Before Pingbacks, there were Trackbacks.
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ttepasse Before Trackbacks there existed – at least in hopes and dreams – the Annotea protocol.
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tantek oh aaronpk, the shadow dom is good for w3cmemes
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ttepasse And of course in another trouser of time Dave Winer also got his implementations in OPML.
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tantek e.g. http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/page/3 and previous pages making fun of google
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ttepasse I fear for the future historian of abandoned web technologies.
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tantek ttepasse, do not fear, simply add to: http://indiewebcamp.com/history
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@grantmacken sending webmentions #webmention - Some background notes on sending webmentions.... http://markup.co.nz/archive/2014/02/23/sending-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/438075138504785920)
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tantek and if the stuff you're adding was actually a predecessor of something useful today (e.g. your Trackbacks to Pingbacks to Webmentions example), then add it (with citations) to http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline
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aaronpk i like how "geocities launched" is the first thing in the list :)
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tantek aaronpk, caseorganic, if you have specific dates for AOL Hometown launch / shutdown, please add to /history
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ttepasse /timeline seems more technology-oriented whereas /history is more organisation-oriented.
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ttepasse That Indie-Auth/RelMeAuth-thingy seems to need a rel=me-redirection. Plain OpenID-metatags are out?
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aaronpk indieauth.com can be an openid provider if that's what you mean
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ttepasse Hm. Not today.
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aaronpk ?
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bret ttepasse: rel-me-aut/indieauth was an attempt to improve on openid, like how webmention is to pingback
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ttepasse Switching from OpenID-Delegation to RelMeAuth. Too lazy at the moment and also I want to switch my personal domain. ;)
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bret its super easy, delete exisiting openID meta data from your head, replace with the indieauth openid metadata
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ttepasse That I know. :)
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tantek another good find via adactio: https://sourcegraph.com/blog/switching-from-angularjs-to-server-side-html
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tantek good summary of reasons why I advise AGAINST Angular, Backbone etc.
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aaronpk nice
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tantek since they're so trendy these days
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aaronpk such trend. so json. wow.
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barnabywalters I tried both angular, ember and backbone and found them to be slow, awkward, counter-intuitive and (at the time) badly documented
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tantek and for a good TimezoneLOL time: https://www.google.com/search?q=Warning%3A+date%28%29+[function.date]%3A+It+is+not+safe+to+rely+on+the+system%27s+timezone+settings.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=%22Warning%3A+date%28%29+[function.date]%3A+It+is+not+safe+to+rely+on+the+system%27s+timezone+settings.%22&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
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tantek sorry, shorter URL (darn Google) https://www.google.com/search?q="Warning%3A+date()+[function.date]%3A+It+is+not+safe+to+rely+on+the+system's+timezone+settings."
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tantek and one more try to work around broken IRC auto-linking: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Warning%3A+date()+[function.date]%3A+It+is+not+safe+to+rely+on+the+system's+timezone+settings.%22
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tantek (to be clear, that's broken in Colloquy, not in the archives. )
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk tantek: good or bad idea to add references to formats like h-entry on the /formats page?
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aaronpk and similar for protocols
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aaronpk ah protocols already has a link to webmention
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tantek aaronpk - go for it
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tantek we can reshape as needed
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tantek also, this was a good read: http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/02/24/2014/
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tantek I wonder if we have all those he mentions in /site-deaths
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tantek and from there, this is a fascinating read: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23digitalcleanse&f=realtime
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tantek as another reason to walk away from silos
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tantek hmm… I think we have a page on that
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+78) "see also digitalcleanse" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+50) "via" (view diff)
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caseorganic tantek: thanks for posting about neil gaiman and him trying to quit social media addiction
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tantek caseorganic, it's important to collect this stuff when we see it!
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tantek over time, it helps reveal patterns that people miss just by reading "today's news"
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caseorganic tantek: yes it is! i had no idea there was a silo quits page! this is super helpful
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caseorganic tantek: i'm starting a year long project to get back to writing and away from the social media addition. it starts with a shed
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tantek caseorganic, thanks!
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tantek also, documenting patterns may help accelerate them
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tantek provides ready fodder for journalists looking to point out a longer term trend
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tantek btw re: that timezone error - it's what PHP does to you, e.g.: http://henick.net/
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bret I can't make it to HWC this week :(
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bret double booked, giving a talk on Arduinos and tiny computers at PSU
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aaronpk bret: sadface!
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aaronpk but sounds cool
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barnabywalters tantek: presumably you found that site via http://www.amazon.com/dp/0596157606/?
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barnabywalters someone beat you to it ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - not quite
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tantek worse, I found it by
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tantek http://www.htmlcssgoodparts.net/
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tantek scroll to the bottom
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tantek "We selected 'America/Chicago' for 'CST/-6.0/no DST' instead in /var/www/vhosts/henick.net/htmlcssgoodparts.net/footer.php on line 7
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tantek And then I was all, what's at henick.net?
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tantek oops
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barnabywalters oh jeez
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tantek yeah, guess what, that kind of error on the home page for your book and your author, that's not part of the "good parts". so sorry, try again.
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aaronpk wow have you seen the list of wiki pages recently?
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bret no, there is one?
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aaronpk it spans 3 sections
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=2010&to=RelMeAuth
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=RelMeAuth-fr&to=link-preview-fr
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=linklog&to=youtube
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tantek re: ttepasse "section why the bad parts are bad" - what do people think? would it be useful to have a summary discrediting of all the "bad parts" of HTML(5)?
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aaronpk if you do that, I fear that section may be larger than the rest of the book
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tantek aaronpk - hence summary.
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tantek as in, 1-2 sentences, followed by shortlink for further reading.
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aaronpk hm that may be worthwhile then
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tantek that way I could just do each one as a blog post ;)
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tantek it's a like a full season's worth of flame wars
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ttepasse Which would be even greater.
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aaronpk hahaha
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tantek aaronpk, caseorganic, how set are we with Embassy for IndieWebCampSF? and capacity?
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tantek should I still try to get MozillaSF?
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caseorganic tantek: give me a momeny
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caseorganic moment*
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tantek is going to be exhausted from hosting the W3CAB meeting 3/4-5
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bret tantek: would interesting, but might cause issues/piss people off
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF () "(-716) Confirmed Venue for IndieWebCamp SF is at Embassy Network with a capacity of 30" (view diff)
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caseorganic tantek: i literally got confirmation on it after a couple days of uncertainty
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caseorganic tantek: we get the upstairs the first day, and the downstairs the second day
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tantek caseorganic - capacities?
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tantek plus that's a nicer spot for the weekend
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tantek alternatively MozillaSF is not far from the Exploratorium
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tantek and Ferry Building Saturday Farmers Market
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aaronparecki.com edited /format (+163) "add list of formats in use" (view diff)
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tantek 30 is going to be tight / cozy but I'm ok with that
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tantek it may have a focusing effect
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caseorganic tantek: that's the idea. i don't think the first one should be really large
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aaronpk it's only in like 2 weeks, can we even get 30 people in this short a time/
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tantek aaronpk - yes, this is SF, we certainly can
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caseorganic it's really close. 30 people will be nice
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tantek the question will be about getting 30 who are eager on the subject to create stuff
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aaronpk also if it's any larger we'd need to bring in lunch, and there's no time to get sponsors
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tantek that's a good point
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caseorganic tantek: organizing a conf in 2 weeks - smaller the better, too close to a date and larger and problems happen
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caseorganic tantek: strangely i didn't know until recently that someone else had suggested the conf in sf in 2 weeks
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caseorganic tantek: i thought you do, so i was confused why the organization wasn't further along
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caseorganic tantek: when i realized that i don't think it was super official, i tried to find a venue
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caseorganic so we're all set for the venue!
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caseorganic tantek: think mozilla could provide lunch both days? like we could go to a pay up front restaurant nearby and bring it back to embassy or a nearby park to eat?
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caseorganic don't know whether weather will be good enough for that, but it would be nice to eat outside
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tantek thank you!!
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caseorganic.com edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* IndieWebCamp */ Added Embassy Network IndieWebCamp SF 2014 Description" (view diff)
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caseorganic.com edited /Main_Page (+20) "/* IndieWebCamp */ Added h-adr formatted address for Embassy Network" (view diff)
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caseorganic tantek: i don't know a lot about the upstairs part of embassy, but it seems like the main room with the large table, the living room and the side room are breakout rooms
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aaronparecki.com created /domain (+28) "Redirected page to [[personal-domain]]" (view diff)
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aaronpk is http://indiewebcamp.com/silo really still a stub?
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